This Had Oscar Buzz - 398 – Short Term 12

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

With Spider-Man: Brand New Day arriving in theatres this week, we’re looking back at director Destin Daniel Cretton’s 2013 debut, Short Term 12. Launched at SXSW and distributed in late summer by micro-indie Cinedigm, the film earned major critical support for its portrait of a child group home populated with compelling characters, both among its residents and the … Continue reading "398 – Short Term 12"

No, the right house. I didn't get that! I'm from Canada water. Dick Poop. I'm on the floor every day with those kids. And last night, that girl sat next to me and she cried and she tried to tell me the only way that she knew how. Grace, it's not your job to interpret tears. I've been waiting for three years for you to just once take the advice that you give your kids every five minutes

and learn to talk about what's going on inside your head. So let's all lift our glasses to our king and queen. Everything good in my life is because of you. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that knows what a Malt is. Every week on this head Oscar buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we're here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with a man who won't stop telling

heartwarming poop stories, Joe Reed. Wow. Wow. This movie starts with a poop joke. It does. I will say this. It does feel like a script note that was received at some point. It's like, we need to find simple, relatable ways to bring levity to this movie.

And on this rewatch, I was like, the choice of it being like poop stuff doesn't. I don't love that, but like I do still really like it. Only two years removed from the help, though, so I imagine that poop was testing through the roof in terms of things to add to movies. Our panel results just came in, and people love poop. Poop is testing very well with Gen Pop. He's got somebody in a lab coat running into the room being like, the test results are in. How many times can we say poop on one episode before we get flagged by, like, Apple Podcasts? Well, let's not try.

and test that. That's... Poop. That's not a... It's not a Guinness World Record I want to be going for. Most mentions of poop in a single podcast episode. All that to be said, I think that there's another way for this movie. To, you know, have heartwarming, relatable,

um, things that will get everybody in the audience chuckling before, uh, we have other sad things to talk about. than poop. That's fair enough. That's fair enough. I who don't love a poop joke have made like 15 poop jokes on this episode over. I will say it immediately

lets me know that like this John Gallagher Jr. character is a more formidable sort than I because were that to have ever happened to me, you would never see me again. Joe, you would never be doing these people's job. I would never... This does not say you're a bad person.

No, I just mean... You would never be in their position. I just mean if the poop story, if that ever happened to me in public, I would just never be in public again. Like that is, yes, I understand that like I couldn't do that job. Yes, I get it. But your priority is also poop. Well, that's not a nice thing to say about me, but thank you. Well, no, it's just like if that comes up, all other things cascade away. I would like to think that if I was in a situation where I had to choose to

between saving a life and caring about poop that I would choose to save a life. That's what I would. That's what the fray song is about. Yes. It is. It's secretly a song about choosing to not care about pooping yourself. To finding your closest public restroom. All right, all right, all right.

We need to move. We need to move off of this. We've got through. We got through that. My top of the film Critique that I have for it I haven't watched this movie Probably since that Oscar season

When I was a huge fan of it I think I'm a little bit less of a fan of it now Oh interesting Though I do Appreciate this This like I don't want to say something that's like condescending to the movie Because I don't mean to condescend to it in that way

This tier This scale of film filmmaking. I do, I do appreciate something of this scale, kind of really hitting all of the marks that it hopes to hit. Because I do think, you know, maybe some of its contemporary peers, I'm not just like casting a eye to Sundance. I think a lot of those filmmakers are not hitting all the marks that they're hoping to hit with their movies. It did make me think of something similar. For one thing, for me, it really did hold up in a way that I was very happy about.

But yes, it made me, I don't want to always be the like they don't make them like the stupid person on this podcast. But it does feel like we haven't had this particular flavor of indie in the very much in the last 10 years. Whereas Sundance, And this was not a Sundance movie. This was a South by Southwest movie. And I want to talk about that because, like, I do wonder if this had been a Sundance movie, whether it might have been different because I sort of, I want to track Bree Larson's trajectory a little bit to Jennifer Lawrence's trajectory. Which was, like, the instant comp that happened when this movie landed, you know. Yeah.

But I think. dance movies have sort of moved in two opposite directions away from what short-term 12 is at sort of the middle, either something much, much more intensely low-key, sort of serious, dower, like a downbeat kind of thing. I'm thinking of what was the movie with, John Magarro that neither one of us cared for very much. With Omaha. Omaha. Or like, even like the, um, the rodeo cowboy one, which, um, jockey.

Jockey. Um, and then the other, the other poll of it is, um, you're sort of more hooky, kind of like, uh, the, um, we're going to base this one off of like, like, an internet sensation or whatever. The, um, um, oh, why can't I remember any titles?

The one about the like, um, the, um, the, um, the viral story about the woman with the cat person. Cat person. Thank you. Jesus. Um, or like, Zola.

Listener, we're recording this first thing on the morning of a day of, we'll just say huge news. Uh, huge news that we're having a good chuckle. You can think back in the past month, and you'll know what day we're talking about. No one's going to remember. It's fine. Maybe lots has happened.

Anyway, continue. Or like Zola or something like that. Stuff that feels like it is designed to catch the very sort of like, you know, very online zeitgeist kind of a thing. And both of those types of things feel like they are moving farther away from what short-term 12. exists in a kind of unpretentious, simple story that nonetheless kind of packs a punch in terms of performance. And I think this is a very well-written movie, actually. And I was really impressed by the fact that despite the fact that I had seen it before,

and despite the fact that it is not a particularly like Whiz-Bang movie, I was locked in for the entire time. Like, I didn't really drift. And I... There's nothing really extraneous in this movie. It's like a solid 90 minutes of this movie hitting the exact mark that it's trying to hit. Yep. Yep.

I agree. I agree. To the point where, like, it doesn't feel the need to, like, overinvest in the Rami Malik character, despite the fact that he's the, like, newcomer at the beginning. Like, they give him just enough beats to show... that he is growing and evolving, and, like, that is, like, a nice little through line through the story, but it doesn't feel the need to over-invest in that character because you get just enough of them. They sort of—this movie knows who the characters that we need to pay the most attention to are,

and it's Brie Larson, John Gallagher, Caitlin Dever, and Lakeith Stanfield. And I think it's really effective in that. way. And you end up, like, getting a lot of story out of those characters in those 90 minutes. Like, you really do. Like, Brie Larson's character, Grace, ends up being a really kind of multifaceted character by the end of this thing. And it's pretty economical storytelling. Yes. And the movie has a real intuitive sense about how to, like, paint the full picture of these characters in a way that isn't didactic. in a way, you know, that lets the information come naturally, like how we learn about

Brie Larson's background naturally through just like the drama of the story arc of this movie. But like, and I don't want to jump to the song too much in the beginning because we should have like its own like discussion. But I do think like that's the perfect example of like downloading us on a lot of the background of Lakeith Stanfield's character. And just like his emotional truth and like his interiority. Yeah. Yeah, the movie does all of that so incredibly well. Yeah, yeah.

And it makes you, it gives you these very likable characters without feeling like you're being, your arms being twisted about it, or you're being kind of like force-fed any of this stuff. I also feel like it allows the... the environment of this facility to explain itself. There isn't a ton of, even with this like character, with the newbie character, they don't overdo it with like, here's how it works in short term 12. This is a this, that is a that, blah, blah, blah.

It really kind of like it allows you to, you know, she says the thing early on about like, you know, that's a level drop or whatever. And it trusts the audience to sort of like, you know, figure that out on it. So you don't really end up seeing. this bureaucratic sort of authority figure until, you know, midway through the movie.

And so it's not a very kind of like, oh, and here, just so you know, like, we're always fighting, you know, we're always fighting the process or whatever. And you get the understanding that, like, yes, there are multiple layers that exist above them in terms of, you know, authority and also legal concerns and also

therapists and also whatever, and they are at the bottom of this food chain, where they are just at the ground level, I think the most effective sentence that you get, the most effective line that you get very early on in the movie is when Brie Larson says to Rami Mollock, she's like, you don't have to be their parent, you're not their parent, they're not their therapist, you just have to create a safe space for them while they are here. And I think that, that is kind of all you need to know to get the sense of what, you know, what the task is at hand of this movie. Mm-hmm. I do think that this is a movie that probably walks up to the door of being cloying in some of the cutciness of it,

but because I think it does get to the genuine heart of these characters, and it does earn any of its emotional response. You know, it's not an emotionally manipulative movie to me. I think that helps gloss over some of the cloyingness, like the bathroom humor, the, like, you know, cuter touches throughout the movie. I even think it gets away with the sort of mid-movie, Let's Go Meet John Gallagher Jr.'s foster parents and, like, this, you know, very lively, I'm imagining Mexican-American, you know, a couple. and that kind of like you worry that it's going to get to the point where it's going to get to be this sort of like, ah, isn't everybody much more authentic because they are, you know, ethnic.

You know, there's an ethnic flavor to this or whatever. But it all ends up feeling very unadorned, actually, and very simple. And it allows Gallagher to have that really wonderful monologue that I think. I think he's quite good in this. Like, I think he's really, really fantastic in this. I think in general, I mean, this movie has been, this movie's legacy is really the fact that, like, so many of the cast members in this movie, very few of whom were known beforehand. Like, this was definitely the first thing I'd ever seen. Lekeith Stanfield, Rami Mollick, Stephanie Beatrice.

or at least those three. I knew John Gallagher Jr. from Broadway. I knew Brie Larson from United States of Terra, and I knew Caitlin Dever from Justified. But they were still pretty, you know, all pretty early in their career, certainly with regard to movies. So, and I think she had,

Brie had already been in Scott Pilgrim versus the World by then at this point. Rami Malik had been in The Master. Right. I never remember that. But yes, but so, but this is sort of this movie's calling card in that like all of these people kind of broke out in their own, you know, in their own ways after this. And I mean. Which is important to like reestablish this movie as because I do think that a lot of what this movie is remembered for, if not just like the emotion of the movie from, you know, people who consider themselves fans of this movie. But a stepping stone towards Brie Larson's Oscar win, which ultimately was kind of like a. storm that couldn't be stopped at a season, you know, two years later.

Yes. So in some way, short-term 12 is like an audition for her to get room. Yes. Yeah. And we'll talk about that on the other side of the plot description as well, and just in terms of, you know, she's such a story coming out of this. And also, you know, Destin Daniel Creton, whose career, I sort of, you forget how. multifaceted his career is because I always forget he directed just mercy in addition to Glass Castle. Glass Castle. Both of those movies actually future. This had Oscar Buzz movies at some point.

And I don't think those are bad movies. Those movies definitely did not match the ambitions to connect with people, I think, in the way that they were intended. Can I tell you? I've still never seen either one of them. Oh, okay. I saw both of them. And, like, they're good, I think just mercy is better than the Glass Castle. That tends to be the reputation, yeah. And, like, the Glass Castle was, you know, a property that had changed hands after changing hands, after changing hands, because that memoir is really popular. And I think even, like, Jennifer Lawrence brought that to Destin Cretton after seeing short-term 12.

And then it ends up, like, she has to drop out of the movie. And naturally, Brie Larson steps in. Yeah. And then Just Mercy, I'm not sure about the, like, production history of that, though. Like, that movie is going to continually, I think, be interesting, you know, when we're looking back on the careers of these people. Sure, now, yeah. Now it is a starting two best actor winners, so yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. But, yeah, and so now we're talking about this now because Destin Daniel Kretton has taking his second bite at the Marvel Apple with, Spider-Man Brand New Day, which is in theaters or is coming to theaters by the time of this time? It is about to be in theaters as of this episode dropping. And correct me if I'm wrong, he was going to do a different

Marvel movie before getting that job. Was he going to be doing the Adventures movies? I think that is true. That do not sound like they're going very well. I think back before they had to change plans because of in part the Jonathan Majors thing and in part because whatever, that he was on at least one of the two, because it was going to be the,

the multi, whatever, the multiverse saga, blow-off movies. And he was going to direct one of, if not both of those. And then that changed when they hit the panic button and they brought back the Rousseau's and Robert Tani Jr., and the whole, the band. And so... And it sounds like they have not taken their finger off of that panic button. Well, they can't until they figure out whether it worked or not.

So I think a lot's going to depend on how well Doomsday performs and is received. But so as a kind of consolation prize seemingly, Cretton gets to do this. fourth Spider-Man movie. It's sort of the fourth in a trilogy in a way that I find that I'm sort of curious about how one handles that because like the last one

well, you know, you can say it left it on a cliffhanger of like, is Peter Parker gonna, you know, be able to make everybody remember him again or whatever? And the trailers for this one seem extremely plot light to the point where it's like, so what is this movie?

Who's the villain? Like you really, really don't still, in multiple trailers, don't get a sense of who the villain is. Do people care when it comes to Spider-Man, though? Because isn't the whole point of showing up to a Spider-Man movie, just like watching him swing around? Like, that's what we want to see. Sort of, yes. And that was kind of the case, too, with No Way Home, and that, like, you didn't really,

the villains were these, you know, the returning ones from the other movies. But, like, that all, you know, there was a lot of. moving parts to that stuff. Ultimately, you know, the Green Goblin is the villain again. I'm pretty sure that's how that went. But yeah, and I think there's just a lot going on with, like, John Bernthal is in this one, playing his Frank Castle character, and Sadie Sink is in this one, playing everybody assumes Gene Gray. And there's just a lot. There's a lot, you know, happening. Plus, you know, it's, you know, Zendaya that you're having to sort of like reignite the MJ thing because she can't remember him from the events of the last movie. Mark Ruffalo's in this,

playing the Hulk. And it's just a lot, a lot going on. So the John Watts Spider-Man, movies, up until that third one, were never my favorites of the Marvel ones, for whatever reason. I didn't dislike them. I certainly didn't dislike Tom Holland. I think Holland works really well in that role. But I always felt like I should be enjoying myself during homecoming and during far from home more than I was.

And the third one, you know, I was really wrapped up in the Toby McGuire, Andrew Garfield, return of it all. I thought they handled that very interestingly. But, yeah, I don't know. So I'll be interested to see. I really liked Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. I thought that was a really fun movie that actually did, had some, you know, really memorable action scenes. sequences early on in that movie. I'm thinking of the flight on the bus. And I'm interested to see what Creighton is able to do with this one. And at the same time, a little bummed at the idea that,

like, if Destin Daniel Creighton wants to continue making theatrical movies, this is the best bet for him to continue to do that. Like, he's not going to be able to go back to doing a short-term 12. If he wants to do something like that, he's going to have to make a television show. And so you're sort of in an awkward position in wanting to see more short-term 12-type stuff from, you know, from this guy. you want to see the thing, that's still my favorite of his movies. But there's just no way for him to go back to doing that. What I will say to that, though, having not seen his Marvel movies, respectfully,

because I'm just off the bus. I do think he's in a better position than some of his contemporaries who have gone from independent filmmaking or, like, mid-scale film. making because like just mercy is a studio movie just mercy maybe the last studio mid-budget movie for adults of its time

period though that movie was like 2019 yeah yeah I do think you know compared to what we've seen with other filmmakers like him where Marvel kind of someone less generous

maybe one of your co-hosts would say like co-ops but you know Marvel recruits these directors who like can prove they make can make a movie on an independent level scale and then you know put them in the marvel wheelhouse he's I think he's come across better and he has landed on his feet better than a number of those other directors well I want to sort of take a little bit of a peruse through those directors because I I tend to agree with you. I think with the... Like his Marvel movies have gone over better

than some of his contemporaries in similar situations. And I think yes, I think that is true. And I think with the caveat that like you kind of have to remove you kind of have to remove Ryan Coogler from the discussion entirely. Oh yeah. Because

that's just like he, even when he was working within the Marvel machine, he seemed to maintain a of control that was a little bit unusual and that was a little bit atypical of what was going on. But so you look at somebody like I brought up, just now I brought up Peyton Reed who has not made a film since Ant Man in the Wasp Quantum Mania has done television in, what is this show, Ride or Die? an Amazon Prime Video series that is

apparently scheduled to premiere this week as we were recording this that is the first two episodes are directed by Peyton Reed but hasn't done a feature film. John Watts, as I just mentioned, did these...

Respectfully, people don't know who John Watts is, you know? Well, sure, but like... And people never saw, what was it, cop car? Cop car, yeah. Does cop car, which was, you know, maybe was not widely seen, but people within the industry responded to that. He does the three Spider-Man movies,

and then he follows that up with Wolves, which is just deeply unfortunate, I think, for all considered that is a movie with, you know, that squanders the talents, I would say, of George Clooney and Brad Pitt, and although I will say... Apple kind of buried it, too, right? Yes, and Apple kind of buried it.

I will say, you know, who's good in that movie, Austin Abrams, my friend. My friend and son, Austin Abrams. So, like, you get somebody like a Scott Derrickson who did Dr. Strange, and

he was able to then springboard off of Dr. Strange and go into, sort of back into the kinds of movies he was making at a higher degree of success with the Black Phone and Black Phone 2. So, like, good for Scott

Derrickson, Anna Bowden, and Ryan Fleck went from Captain Marvel and all of the sort of, you know, Adjada over that. And then their movie after that was Freaky Tales, which I never saw. Did you ever see Freaky Tales? It didn't get much of a release, and it was a long time after it premiered at Sundance, and I don't think people responded to it at that Sundance. They also did, directed at least some episodes of that show Masters of the Air. That was the Apple TV series about the World War two pilots. And then they have something in the works, a television series for Prime Video, called Criminal, starring Charlie Hunnam and Richard Jenkins and Adria Arhona, that I guess is coming soon.

I think the other comparison is Nia da Costa, who got stuck in the Marvel. machine, which I, you know, reading, I didn't see the movie, but reading the, like, production history, I think she probably got blamed for a lot of things that were not her fault. Yes. And she's definitely made a comeback between Hedda and the Bone Temple. Bone Temple is such a fascinating movie. Well, Bone Temple, and also 28 years later, are forever going to be movies that I am going to pretend in my head were like bigger hits than they are because within our cadre like there were

huge movies you know what i mean like um and yet i forget that like they did not perform particularly well financially and that like bone temple is kind of um a flop which fucking sucks because bone temple's such a good movie well it's such a like hard okay so 28 years later reestablishes the franchise requires you to understand so much about the original, like both on a like storytelling level and a stylistic level so that you can understand what it's trying to do differently. So it's like, no wonder the public. Like, Gen Pop hated it because like a lot of Jen Pop didn't see the original, even though now we consider it a classic. And then Bone Temple is like full pivot away from that.

It like almost exists as its standalone entity, and it's also like a nasty little movie. So good. It's so good. It's great. We should also mention Chloe Zhao, who obviously fell into the pit with Eternals. you could argue that that movie was operating from a deficit in a few different ways, but there is, you know, you have to acknowledge that that was just a swing and a miss for everybody involved, but she's able to rebound quite strongly last year with Hamnet.

And without dogging Eternals in any way or the Marvel process in any way, I think the most she ever really said that could have been taken disingenuously is like, she was like, they let me do my own movie, my own way, and didn't really interfere. And it's like, well, of course then, you know, some things are not going to be clicking there when people actually see the thing, but she's, you know, not blaming anyone and it doesn't seem like they're blaming her either. Right. I just think in general that was always going to be a challenging property and that it comes

right after the ums excuse me right after the um the um avengers end game you know a big conclusion there it's a whole bunch of new characters and it's there you know the idea that they are these you know immortal gods or whatever it's just a it's a huge right turn from um from where things were going but anyway i do still want to eventually sit down and see eternals like my curiosity is still high for Eternals. You should. You should. I think there are good elements of it and there are bad elements of it. And I think it's an interesting movie to kind of wrangle with a little bit. So you might find it more rewarding than other Marvel movies, to be sure.

Joe, let's bring it back to short-term 12. But before we do that, would you like to talk about our Patreon? Yes. If you are not already a paid member, of this head Oscar buzz, Turbulant Brilliance, you should really consider it. It's been going for quite a while. We have quite an archive

of episodes in there for you to enjoy for only $5 a month. You will get all of our archives plus two new bonus episodes every month. The first of those episodes will drop on the first Friday of every month. It's what we call an exception.

And it is a kind of episode that we would do on regular This Had Oscar Buzz, but because the rule here is that we can't cover any movies that got any kind of Oscar nominations whatsoever, exceptions are where we cover the exceptions, the movies that got one or two Oscar nominations, despite in general failing to meet their high expectations. So, recently, we've done movies like Saving Mr. Banks, the movie about the making of Mary Poppins. We've done Brian De Palma's The Black Dahlia, we have done Tim Burton's Big Fish,

Rob Reiner. We did a sort of Rob Reiner double when Harry met Sally and the American president we did in quick succession. Just tons of episodes out there. We've got an episode on Vanilla Sky. We've got an episode on My Best Friend's Wedding. We've got an episode on The Mirror Has Two Faces where we get to talk about Barbara Streisand. Who wouldn't want to do that? And then on the third Friday of every month, we drop an episode that is called an excursion. That is not about a movie specifically, but it is about some sort of corner of awards season or in general movie ephemera, the kind of which Chris and I nerd the fuck out over whether it's old award shows like indie spirits or MTV Movie Awards or Golden Globes, old EW fall movie previews,

old let's say, for example, movie line issues where Jennifer Lopez talks shit about everybody, or, as we have done very recently, Hollywood Reporter Actress Roundtables. We delved into the 2012 THR Actress Roundtable, wherein Sally Field once again bemoans the Flying Nunn, wherein Amy Adams brandishes a switchblade and threatens paparazzi, and it's all very exciting. So all of this can be yours for, as we said, the Lolo price of $5 every month. If you want to sign up for This Head Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance, and we really hope you do,

go to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash this head Oscar Buzz. Short-term 12. Written and directed by Destin Daniel Cretton based on his short of the same title, Starring. Get ready for some names that sound famous to you now but wouldn't have 15 years ago.

Brie Larson, John Gallagher Jr., Caitlin Dever, Lakeith Stanfield, Kevin Hernandez, Rami Mollick, Stephanie Beatrice, and Malora Walters. One scene wonder, Malora Walters. Right at the end there, yep. When she showed up, I was like, oh, totally forgot she was in this movie. Yep, yeah. The movie World premiered at South by Southwest, 2013, not Sundance,

South by Southwest. A real to Leslie of this day. And open in limited release August 23rd, 2013, real fascinating box office week. You know, we don't really talk about August releases because that's not really an awards window. Though for something like short-term 12. It was for a little while there, though.

Like that used to be where you'd drop the help or, you know. Uh-huh. Or in the case of the number one movie, the weekend that this movie opened, Daniels the butler. Yes. Everything you have and everything you are. It's because of that short term 12.

Yes. But like a movie on the scale of short term 12, I think it's incredibly smart to release it at this time when it's like there's not a ton going on at the movies. It allows for a very small movie to create a critical mass among, you know, critics and now, unfortunately, influencers. Yes. With movies who it's like, can I guess?

just be paid to say exclusively good things about movies. And then when you know they don't like it, they're like, I'm going to have to sit on this for a while. But I do think that that was instrumental to this movie's success throughout the award season. And even though no Oscar nominations, obviously, because we're talking about it,

I would kind of categorize a movie like this on an awards trajectory as an unqualified success. We'll get into why I would say that. Speaking of instrumental, though, we had mortal instruments this weekend. The mortal instrument city of bones, I do think when I was pulling up the box office information for short term 12, and I saw the mortal instruments, city of bones, I just got out of my chair and had to walk away for a few minutes. Yeah, you kind of have to take a lap. That's definitely true. What were we doing here?

The mini trendlet of, I'm trying to think of like what this would have even been in the wake of. Because it's sort of, and it's kind of like post-Twilight but also post-game of Thrones, where it's like, you know, teen fantasy. We're going to try and make a teen fantasy, you know, moment happen. And they all had the craziest fucking titles. I feel like Mortal Instrument's City of Bones. I am number four. I think Mortal Instrument City of Bones was one of those movies

that I was walking home from work and I wanted to just go to see a movie and I was like, what's starting now? And I saw Mortal Instrument City of Bones. Joe, how were those mortal instruments? Can I tell you? I remember very little. Very, very little. And it's not like I fell asleep during it or anything.

I watched that movie. I remembered that Lily Collins was in it, and I remembered that Jamie Campbellbauer was in it, and that's about it. But it is that, like, Y.A. franchise thing where, I mean, really, it starts with Harry Potter, and then Twilight and, you know...

Because this was contemporary with, like, Divergent and, like, those movies, too. So, yes, everybody wanted to have their own sort of Y.A. Fantasy. High romance, high fantasy, kind of a thing. Yeah. The Divergence series had the benefit to the makers, perhaps not to the public, of being directly adjacent to Hunger Games, both in success of the books and the movies. So that's why we got so many of them.

We don't have more of the Mortal Instrument series on film beyond City of Boons. Also, I am kind of obsessed with that kind of thing, too. a title that suggests this is going to be the first chapter of many, and there are no subsequent chapters. Can I read you the IMDB plot description of Immortal Instrument, City of Bones? Please. I'm excited to see how vague this is. When her mother disappears, Clary Frey, that's the character, that's the character. No. Clary Frey learns... Clary! Honestly, it's with a Y, but yes.

Olympia, it's Olympia Dacoccus stars on this movie. Clary, are you high? When her mother disappears, Clary Frey learns that she descends from a line of warriors who protect our world from demons. She joins forces with others like her and heads into a dangerous alternate New York called the Shadow World. All gay men are named Mark Rick or Steve and all gay men vacation to the city of bones. All gay men are named Jamie Campbell Bauer or Kevin Zeggers.

Yeah. Lena Heddy is in that movie, speaking of Post... Conceivable. Jonathan Reese Myers is in that movie. Sure. I say sure to all of it. In fourth place opening that weekend, The World's End. I think I was incredibly disappointed by that movie.

I think I was, too. Very much looking forward to the conclusion of what is at the core? Trilogy, the Sean of the Dead, Hot Fuzz. I, being a bigger Hot Fuzz fan, I think, than others are. I was very much more... I'm a bigger Hot Fuzz fan than I am a Sean of the Dead fan. Oh, I still think Sean of the Dead's the best one, but I love. I think Hot Fuzz is so funny.

And then in fifth place, the third weekend of Planes, back when, you know, kids' movies, it was just like, there could be weird success for movies that it's just like... Why not planes? Talking planes. You'll love it. Literally, it's, it makes you think of, like, the boardroom with, like, an easel and a curtain above, like, in, like, shrouding of a poster board. And they pull off the curtain, and it just says planes. And everybody is like, oh, oh, like rubar, ruby, ruby, or somebody, somebody draws a plane on a whiteboard.

And everybody sitting around the table is like, huh. And then that person goes back up to the plane. and draws a face on it, and everyone's like, you don't see the plane at first, though. You see the faces of everybody, like your POV on them, and they're all just sort of like tilting their head, and then you look and you see the plane, yes, and then he draws the face on the plane,

and then, yeah, it's like, dollar signs, yes. Planes got a theatrical sequel. Planes Fire and Rescue, yeah. See, they didn't start with planes Fire and Rescue, like Mortal Instrument City of Bones did. So they didn't risk embarrassment in that way. Intent Place, the first wide release weekend of Blue Jasmine. I think I saw that one with Katie Rich, in fact, in Brooklyn.

And that is a movie we don't think or talk about much anymore. I think some of that has, I mean, the obvious reason is Woody Allen, but some of it is like we only reduced it to at the time even talking up that movie through the context of Kate Blanchett's performance to the point that it kind of was a small surprise

that Sally Hawkins also got nominated for it and I think subsequently to that movie even though that's the one she won the Oscar for the fact that she then in quick succession does or decently quick succession does Carol and then Tar where it's just like she Those are now the movies that are the latter career triumphs for Kate Blanchett,

and nobody really talks about Blue Jasmine, and I think everybody sort of feels like that's good, like, well enough, because they don't really want to have to, you know, deal with the discomfort of admitting that we all loudly praised a Woody Allen movie as recently as 2013. Well, but it's one of the interesting things about Blanchett is that, like, her calling card seems to constantly be, changing.

Because I think even before Blue Jasmine, her calling card was Bob Dylan. And right before Bob Dylan, it was Catherine Hepburn. Right. You know, it's one of the interesting things about her as a performer that I think, you know, her status is merited is because she constantly keeps topping herself. Yeah. But also, like, I think the interesting thing about Blue Jasmine is, like, it is a modern streetcar named Desire, which, you know, some people.

people kind of unpacked, but it's just like that never really became part of the conversation. Yeah. Also opening in limited Ridleys this weekend in a truncated form, we should say, the Grandmaster. Oh, right. What was the story with that movie? Weinstein basically, like, chopped it up and, you know, now that movie is seen in its original form here in the States, but it took a while to, you know, get the intended version here to Western audiences.

And that got nominated for cinematography? Cinematography. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Short-term 12 opens in 44th place on four screens with $56,000. Here's the thing that I kind of want to say before we get into the plot description for this movie. This movie ends up making a million dollars at the box office. This movie wasn't released by Focus.

It wasn't released by, you know, A-24 in their first year, which they were having success right off the bat. basically with Spring Breakers. So did Spring Breakers hit theaters in 2014? No, Spring Breakers hit in 2013. They also had the same year, The Spectacular Now, which Br. Larson was also. Oh, okay. This wasn't released by, you know, Sony Classics, wasn't released by IFC. It was released by Synodine.

Synodime, which was a movie theater. No one had heard of Synodime. No one still probably has heard of Sinai. There was a synodime theater in New York, which is the only reason why. There you go. But, you know, this is not a distributor with access. So it's like there's a real ground swell effort to get behind this movie among critics and its fans. There was this real like street level marketing to this movie.

I think the cast really got out there. They screened it a bunch to a bunch of different people. and to the degree of success that it did get, which, you know, indie spirit nominations and that kind of a thing can be attributable to that. It's the kind of thing that is almost impossible. Like, I can't think of something in the past few years that's really an analog. And it's exactly what we mean when we say something like, you know, The Apprentice or whatever. though that is obviously a very special case because of its distributor is going to have a barrier to entry to the Oscar nominations, which it ultimately transcended, I think partly because of the controversy. I was going to say it had quite a bit more of a hook to it than sort of.

Yeah, it's not the best comparison, but it's when we say that. It's the first thing I thought of too, though, when you said that. Yeah, yeah. When we talk about like, this movie has this distributor, it's probably going to have a hard time really breaking through. And then to the degree that, you know, short-term 12 got the recognition that it did throughout the season, I still would call it an unqualified success. Yes, I agree. I agree. Joe, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description for short-term 12? Sure.

All right, then your 60-second plot description starts now. Brie Larson plays Grace, a supervisor at a group home for troubled teens. She's dating one of her fellow employees, Mason, and she finds out early on that she's pregnant and quickly schedules an abortion. At work, Lekeith Stanfield plays Marcus, an older kid who's about to turn 18 and thus leave the facility and who starts acting out because he's afraid to go. This includes attacking a younger, smaller resident with a wiffle bat and later a suicide attempt. There's also a new arrival Jaden, played by Caitlin Dever, who's sullen and sarcastic and also a cutter. Grace shares a lot in common with Jaden, including her suspicions about why Jaden cuts and is determined to reach her. After Jaden acts out on her birthday and escapes the facility briefly,

Grace sits down with her as Jaden reads a children's story she wrote that basically says her father is abusing her. Grace, who by this point is also dealing with the prospect of her own rapist father getting out of jail, fights with the authorities to keep Jaden from being released into her father's custody, and when that doesn't work, she sneaks into Jaden's house at night with a baseball bat. Instead of beating the dad to death, Grace and Jaden just smashed the shit out of his car windows. At the end, Jaden returns to short term 12. Marcus is thriving in the outside world, and Grace and Mason decide to keep the baby and cry at the sound of the baby's heartbeat the end.

Three seconds over. Incredibly well done. with light plot dynamics in this movie, I think that is the ideal of the 60-second plot description. You did it. Don't get used to it. Yes.

Yeah, I think in general it's, you can boil down things to the essential elements in this movie pretty well. I think that is a testament to Destin Daniel Cretton's screenwriting. Yeah, I think clearly the A story is

Grace and Jaden. I think you even see that. I think the trailer is sort of like focused on that as well. That one of the things that I think is really successful on the screenplay level

but also in the performances is the fact that Grace's own story maps onto Jadens enough that it's meaningful but not so much that you're like, oh, this feels contrived, right? Like, it's ultimately not super surprising that this, you know,

woman who would be working at a facility like this would have, you know, a story like this in her past. So I think that tends to make it seem more realistic. And then also, like, they were both, you know, cutters and they can bond over that. they're, you know, they have these stories of abuse from their fathers that they don't really want to talk about. I think that's one of the more interesting things about Grace, too, is that, like, she's opening up to Jaden as much as Jaden is opening up to her about this kind of thing. Jaden actually admits to, or at least like through that little story about the octopus and the shark or whatever,

admits to her what her father is doing before Grace does to her. Like, that doesn't come until much later in the movie. But I also think just Larson and Dever are so good in building that relationship realistically, that they, you know, they clash. I think Larson's really good at playing the sort of quiet persistence of, like, She knows just how to push on these kids. She knows through experience that, like, you know, you don't battle these kids. You're not, I think a lesser movie would have made it into more of a battle.

You know what I mean? And I think one of the things I find fascinating. A lesser movie would be like there are no victims in the short-term housing complex. Kind of. Yes, yes. And that's how you reach these kids. You've got to really, like, break through their barriers. You got to teach them about Dylan Thomas through Bob Dylan. Yeah.

Yes. Listen, you're not going to get me to say an unkind word about dangerous minds, but you're not wrong. But, like, I think that's one of the things that is so interesting about this movie is that it's, you know, this is, these are characters who you can imagine they started out a little bit like Rami Mollock, who like starts off on the wrong foot talking about how he's always wanted to work with underprivileged kids. or whatever. And you see everyone, you've seen John Gallagher Jr. being like, oh, Jesus Christ. And Lakeith, you know, reacts to it. But

you can imagine that these are people who have learned through failure of, you know, trying to reach, you know, kids in the ways in which it's not going to work. And I always really like seeing somebody being good at their job. So I think watching Grace in this

movie is watching somebody who has learned to be very good at what I imagine to be a very difficult job. Right. Right. And I think, you know, back to that connection between her and Caitlin Dever's character, that you have these parallels. And then, like, there's elements to this movie that are, like, a character study of, like, you know, working through trauma.

And, like, the reality of it is that, like, that stuff never really goes away and things can summon it back up, but like you can do a lot of hard work on yourself to like, uh, pass through horrible things that have happened to you and, you know, it becomes a fabric of who you are. And in that way, I think like Prig Larson's performance is still really so great. Yes. Um, in a way that I don't think she's had much opportunities since her Oscar win to really do this kind of thing again, even when she's worked with, uh, Cretton again. Yeah. Um, it, I also think, like,

the humor element of this movie, which is not always fully successful to me because of the thing where I'm like, the movie does approach cloying. I do think she has a really great balance of humor in this movie because there are moments where she gets to be really funny. But it feels like just done in such a smart sense of taste, I guess, for like what the scene actually demands and that, you know, it still comes from this human place. we believe grace as a, you know, living person that we're watching. Where do you think the movie gets closest to cloying? Honestly, some of the, like, Rami Malick stuff and the, some of the John Gallagher stuff, though I do think John Gallagher is really, really great in this movie. You know, it's...

The emphasis on, like, cutier humor. in this, you know, harder setting. I think that there's value to it, but sometimes, you know, it does feel a little bit like some type of studio note, though obviously this was not a studio-made movie. I know this script kicked around for a while,

so he probably received a lot of feedback on that vein of, you know, finding the levity. Yeah. I like how there is, it's not a conflict-free relationship with him, with Mason and Grace. But it also doesn't do the like wholly predictable thing of, I mean, I guess it does, right? The pregnancy becomes a reveal and he, you know, reacts to it.

But I think that is ultimately sort of pushed aside once she has to go and, you know, find Jaden and go to Jaden's house and whatever. so it doesn't feel like the movie spends too much time in this space where it's like, oh, will they ever just sort of get over, you know, will he ever get over this, you know, feeling he has? And I think he's ultimately able to be a good guy without seeming like a, you know, savior to her. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's also, you know, the juxtaposition of these two.

people who are in a relationship. You know, his family stuff is obviously very heartwarming and he does have that wonderful monologue that you mentioned earlier. You know, it is very clear that he is someone who came from a similar background, but ultimately did receive a lot of positive reinforcement, you know, in the environment that he landed in, the home situation that he ended up landing in and we don't get any of that from grace. Yeah.

So it's like, I think there's also the tension. of that between their, you know, relationships that they both, like, have worked through this drama, but he's done it in a very-supported. Different setting and supportive setting. So it's like he's figured a lot of it out, you know. Whereas you get the impression that she may have figured a lot of it out via working for, you know, working at this facility. And that makes, you know, it sort of colors her character quite a bit.

Yeah. And like one of the best scenes in the movie is the confrontation between her and her superior. Yes. You know, who when Caitlin Devers has to go and live with her father and she's trying to, you know, the tension between the two, the argument between the two is, I know this is happening because she revealed this information to me in a way that she felt comfortable doing so without explicitly saying this is what happened. And, you know, the person who has to go by the letter of the law says that is not enough. Yeah.

And that's a very personal thing for her. Through the performance, we're able to see, you know, that she is attached to her job in a personal sense of how it's helped her work through what she herself has gone through. Yeah, yes. So this movie premieres at South by Southwest and wins the prize there for best narrative feature and also the audience award for that. at this point South by Southwest is still kind of emerging as a film you know as a place for films to debut

and for films to premiere they've been going on as a music festival for quite a while obviously I contrast this with the Jennifer Lawrence sort of narrative where she debuts in 2010 with Winter's Bone at Sundance. Immediately, the word sort of emerges from Sundance that, like, this is the big new discovery.

She's absolutely going to get nominated for Best Actress, sort of like make room. And this was, of course, coming the year after, Precious. So I think in some ways, people were kind of looking for, like, what's going to be this year's precious, and everybody was like, we found it. We found her. It's Winter's Bone, it's Jennifer Lawrence, and that ultimately came to fruition. It's certainly not like South by Southwest was this unknown thing. It was a huge music festival.

So like, you know, whatever the film version of it was even, you know, if it's a sort of like less publicized corner of it, it's not like you were, you know, premiering in a dark corner somewhere. But the thing about South by Southwest, though, in terms of movies, is that, you know, they get a lot of attention for the larger premieres, you know, things that are going to that festival already with distribution. Movies like us, movies like even extremely loud. Not extremely loud. Everything, everywhere all at once premiered there to a lot of fanfare. Genre movies, comedies get a lot of fanfare. but their actual competition don't get as much media attention when it's there.

And oftentimes those movies still don't get distribution as well. Yes, and I think certainly, you know, as the years have gone on, South by Southwest becomes a sort of release strategy, right? Like certain movies feel like they can better position themselves as a South by Southwest premiere versus a Sunday. dance premiere. I also feel like because South by Southwest is a smaller film festival, I think there is a sense of like, no, like, this is, this is important. You know what I mean?

It's less of a chance of it getting lost in the shuffle of a Sundance. But I also think the flip side of that is, certainly by 2013, it's not like we hadn't really learned to look to South by Southwest to launch any kind of Oscar campaign or that kind of thing. And I wonder if that had, if short-term 12 had instead been a Sundance premiere, whether there was a chance of, now 2013, that's the same year as Fruitvale Station, which was, I believe, the big sort of Sundance sensation that year. Weinstein Co. bought it. So on one level, you're not going to be the movie out of that festival.

You're not going to do things like win the audience award or win the, you know, probably not at least. But also, you're competing in a little bit of a different alley or avenue than Fruitvale Station. It's not like Brie Larson couldn't still emerge as like a best actress contender. because of anything, you know, any competition from Fruitvale Station or anything like that. And ultimately, this is sort of like playing in hypotheticals, but it's hard not to draw the comparisons to the Jennifer Lawrence thing when the only thing missing is the fact that, like, Lawrence was nominated for Winters' Bone at the Oscars. Bree Larson wasn't nominated for short-term 12, but still regardless for both of them, two years

later, they come back with Oscar vehicles that are Best Picture nominees that ultimately win, that they win best actress for. So, I don't know. Where, where, where, where, what are your thoughts on all of that? Well, it's so interesting. One of the things, I think of particularly people who were not, who hadn't seen short-term 12 during Broom, the room. the room season were a bit aghast that she kind of just like steamrolled through that season.

But I think one important thing to note about Brie Larson is that Brie Larson was like of a class of actress who was just like waiting to land the right role. She was in all of the same audition rooms as Jennifer Lawrence in all the same audition rooms as Emma Stone. Like they all knew each other and were friends because they were. were all up for the same roles. And Brie Larson, it just happened for her later. Right. She had been, like, there's that whole thing where, like, she had that weird little, like, teen, you know, musician career or whatever.

She's, the first thing I had ever seen her in is United States of Terra, which debuts in in 2009, where she starts off playing, and she had been in, like, you know, various TV series as a guest star before then. But her role on United States of Terra begins as this fairly typical, rebellious teenage daughter. The very first episode, she's, you know, trying to go out on a date with this Shiloh Fernandez plays this kind of, you know, scummy guy who is, you know,

is bad news or whatever, which we've seen eight billion times before. And it's really just an excuse for one of Tara's altars to be the one to, you know, ride in and break that up. But I think over the course of that series, be it through the writing of the show, but also, I think through her performance, that character becomes less stereotypical, becomes more multifaceted. She's, you know, there's still a rebellious nature to her, but she, you know, becomes less sort of knee-jerk brady. And, you know, her relationship with her brother is very interesting. And I think in general, she comes across, like, her ability kind of shines through in that and throughout the course of that series. So by the time she's doing things like Scott Pilgrim versus the world, which happens in the middle of the run of United States of Terra. By that point, I'm just like, ah, that's my girl.

You know what I mean? Like, there's, there's Brie. And she's in Rampart. She's in Greenberg, briefly. I think she's sort of like one of the pack of younger girls who, you know, he's all, Greenberg's an odd movie. Greenberg is a movie I should probably revisit. And, you know, we absolutely do not talk about that movie. And it is probably more interesting. than that. People didn't really like it at first. People just didn't... He's not a very likable character in that movie, I think intentionally so. But this is also, like, obviously this is the movie where he walks in with Jennifer Jason Lee and he walks out with Greta Gerwig. But this does feel like the last of the misanthropic Noah Bomback movies.

He sort of tries to revisit it with while we're young a little bit. And people also didn't really like that movie. I am people. But anyway, so I will say, the thing that, to me, is the underrated sort of link in the chain for Brie Larson is 21 Jump Street. Because she's so good at a really potentially thankless role. She's essentially just like, she's the high school girl who, you know, is in this sort of faux romance with Jonah Hill's character? Yes? I didn't love those movies as much as everyone else did, so I honestly don't remember them.

I did. This one, I didn't like the second one as much, but I think, I thought 21 Jump Street was really good and really clever. And I think she's dynamite in that movie. and I think it really helps level her up. And then, right, she's in Don John. She's his sister, right? She's so funny in Don John. She doesn't speak until, like, the end of the movie.

She's just, like, texting through every second she's on screen, and it's so funny. Right. And that's the same year as short-term 12. And obviously, also, as I mentioned, the spectacular now, where she's also someone's sister. She's Miles Teller's sister, I want to say? I believe so, yeah. in that movie. God, that movie, that cast,

Miles Teller, Shalien, Woodley, Bree Larson, Mary Elizabeth Winstead. Like, they just, you know, all of those people went on. Caitlin Dever's also in that movie. Holy shit. So, yes. But all of this kind of goes to say that even if somebody is unknown to audiences, it doesn't mean that they are to the industry, you know, which I think helped clear the runway in a way that wasn't necessarily transparent

to audiences when she had her real Oscar run, you know? Yeah, I think that's right. I also think just in general, it doesn't, I was never quite as perplexed as some people claimed to be about her winning the Oscar for Room. I think that is a not only really strong performance, but it is a, the nature of, of that role really lends itself to the kinds of thing that wins awards. She's, you know, she's alone for a lot of it. It's just her and the kid.

So you sort of, you know, you put a lot of that on her shoulders. She has to kind of like hold up the adult end of that relationship. Obviously, that character goes through a lot and is harrowing, so you root for that character. And that's always a really big component of particularly lead actress, Oscar wins. And it doesn't, I mean, I think a lot of people were very invested in Carol and in Cape Blanchet and Carol and whatever. And it's just like, it doesn't surprise me that they opted to not give Kate Blanchett

a third Oscar and instead, you know, gravitated towards something that looked really impressive. A third Oscar that quickly, too. A third Oscar that quickly, too, exactly. So, yeah. I mean, I was, you know, admittedly, I was very much in my Brilarsen fandom by this point, but I also just, like, stepping aside from that, it just makes, it, it just makes a good bit of sense that that's a, that was an Oscar winning role. Mm-hmm. I agree. I think so.

And then you have the rest of this cast. Well, yes, you have the rest of this incredibly impressive cast. Right. So Gallaghan, who it's like, even if they're not Oscar winners or nominees at this point, like, Stephanie Beatrice would go on to be a Disney princess. Caitlin Deaver is fucking everywhere all the time. Yeah. I'll start with Gallagher.

Because Gallagher is somebody who, again, wins the Tony Award, somewhat unexpectedly, I think, for Spring Awakening. I don't think he was favored to win that year. Although now I want to see who he was up against. 2007. Certainly, Spring Awakening was the big musical winner that year, but he was up against Brooks Ashmanskis in Martin Short

Fame becomes me. Christian Borel in Legally Blonde, the Musical, John Cullum in 110 in The Shade, and David Pitou in Love Music. Well, I guess it's not super surprising then that he wins. He wins that award. Really endearing

when he, you know, when he has that acceptance. And he had by that point been in, he had been an episode of the West Wing that I remember, the season four premiere where he's this like sort of small town Indiana kid who guides Josh and Toby and Donna through their transportation disasters in Indiana. He had been in Pieces of April. He's the brother, I guess, right, in Pieces of April. He'd been on Broadway and Rabbit Hole. Oh, Rabbit Hole. Okay, there we go.

He apparently had been in Jonah Hex, a movie I saw and remember very little of, but he's a small part in Jonah Hex. He was in Marguerette as I imagine just one of the students in Marguerette. But this in terms of film, this is a big, big step up. for him beyond what he had been doing up until this point. And he has had some interesting moments in film since then. I remember liking him in Ten Cloverfield Lane. He plays a genuinely creepy killer in the Mike Flanagan movie Hush that starred his wife, Kate Siegel. that was a Netflix movie.

I don't remember liking the Belko experiment very much, but he was a star of that. I don't remember liking the miseducation of Cameron Post too terribly much, but he's in that. What else would I have, like, would I single out in terms of, like, film stuff that he's done? I guess maybe not a ton since then. He was famously on the newsroom, playing a... oft-insufferable character, a real sort of Aaron Sorkin analog there, and the Aaron Sorkin analog is always maybe the most insufferable character. And he was on four episodes of Westworld.

Thoughts on John Gallagher, Jr. in this movie and in general. Good actor would like to see him get a showcase role in something like, I don't know, maybe like a Kelly Riker. movie. John Gallagher Jr. also used to show up to videology trivia every once in a while. And I never saw him there, but you would always sort of just like, did you see John Gallagher? He was at the back of the bar earlier. And I was just like, no, I didn't see him. So he would just sort of, he must have, I imagine, lived in that neighborhood and would pop in to do videology trivia. So, um, I don't know. If you're listening, John Gallagher Jr., come on,

uh, come on this at Oscar Buzz and we'll talk about it. Yeah, I've always enjoyed him more or less. Earned that Tony, I saw that original Broadway cast. Did you really? I wasn't, I guess it wouldn't have been the original Broadway cast by the time I saw it, but like we had, just after I had moved to New York, late 2007, we had tickets to go see Spring Awakening, and then the stageworker strike happened, and so all those tickets were canceled and refunds.

And by the time it came back, we kind of like, we dragged our feet a little bit, and by the time we had, you know, got it together, the show was closing. So then you had that, like, last, you know, run of every, you know, all of those shows were sold out. So, so I never saw Spring Awakening on stage. I'm not one of that generation. Which, again, codes me as Gen X and not millennial. So, um, You say so, my love. Caitlin Deaver, we've talked about a ton, because obviously, we've done a six-timers on Caitlin. She's been a ton of stuff. We don't really need to press down. You can bank on her being an Oscar nominee at some point. I hope so, because, man, she's talented enough. Doing a lot of TV right now, though.

Yeah. This was a really great breakthrough for Lakeith Stanfield, who was built as Keith Stanfield in this. I remember the Lakeith. was not made known until, I think, his next film. Maybe not even until probably before he did Atlanta. But anyway, really, like, significant. I think he showed up, or at least I hope so, in like breakthrough critics awards and stuff like that, I would hope.

Because a really, really exciting, was nominated for Best Supporting Mail at the Independent Spirit Awards. lost to Jared Leto for Tal Spiders Club. Well... Yes, both he and Brie Larson are nominated at Independent

Spirit Awards and lose to the Oscar winners. Yes, this was definitely this was in my long years of being frustrated with the Independent Spirit Awards for being too close to the Oscars. This was a

this was definitely one of those. Twelve Years of Slave wins, best feature and best director. Other nominees were, Nebraska was nominated for feature and director, as did the Oscars. All four of the acting winners were the four acting winners from the Oscars. I think that's the first and I think maybe only time that that has happened. And at that point, I'm just like, just be the, like, if we have an Oscars. Why do we need, why do we need this? Why do we need this? But anyway, good for Lakeith Stanfield for being nominated there, other nominees in that category,

Oscar nominee, Michael Fastbender, Oscar close to being nominee, Will Forte for Nebraska, and then the late James Gandalfini in Enough Said. Yeah, quite good, quite good in that. Obviously, he would go on to get an Oscar nomination for, in Supporting Actor, for either he or Daniel Kulia were the lead in that movie, And they both got nominated and supporting. It's still so wild. I mean, like, I wouldn't take away Oscar nominee,

Lekeith Sandfield, for anything. I love that he has an Oscar nomination. But calling him, you know, calling either of those performances. Who's your lead, then? Who's your lead, Academy? They're both leads. It's a co-lead.

Right. So to have your solution be, well, then none of them are leads. Everyone's supporting. That's true of some movies. It's true of Nashville. Right. It's true of, yes, exactly. But like...

But that's not what that movie is. DTF St. Louis did that this year at the Emmys, where it's just like, everybody is a supporting character. And it's like, no, you have three leads. You have David Harbour and Jason Bateman and Linda Cardalini. Those are all leads. You can't just say that because we have no one singular lead that they're all supporting, that's insanity. And of course, they all got nominated.

And it's just like, I don't know. Um, Rami Mollick definitely, I guess I could never, I don't think I ever saw the night of the museum movies. So I can credibly claim, I think, that I had never seen Rami Mollock in anything. This was certainly the first thing I had like made note of him by this point. And I did not become a Mr. Robot watcher. I did definitely watch the first season.

of Mr. Robot, but that wasn't until 2015, so that was the short term 12 was definitely before that. He was also this same year in we literally did Anthony Buddy Saints not long ago, and I still now can't remember who he played. He's in

like a scene, it is not. And then he's in the Spike Lee remake of Old Boy in a fairly small role in that as well. Did you ever see that? Yes, it's bad. It's bad. It's really bad.

Yes. I feel bad for Elizabeth Olson for being in that bad movie. You know who's terrible in that movie? Brolin. No. Well, he's not great. Charlton Copley is... Oh, of course.

Embarrassingly bad in that movie. Okay. The... District 9 has not lingered well as a movie that is... Great. Everything that that movie leads to turns to dust, kind of. Yeah, because I remember the love for Charlottal Copley's performance in that as well. And, like, Charlottal Copley, not a good actor.

No. Not a good actor. Respectfully, respectfully. And it seemed like they wanted to, they wanted to sort of, like, prop him up to be, like, our next Christoph Valtz. I guess he was kind of contemporary to Christoph Valtz because that was, District 9 was the same year and glorious bastards. But, yeah, yeah. Was Chappi, why do I connect Chappi to District 9?

Was that like a shared producer kind of a thing, or is it just sort of like... I think that's the same director, right? And isn't Charlottocoply Chappie himself? I think he is Chappie himself. Mochapchapis. Yes, Neil Blomkamp did direct Chappie. Okay, I thought that he went directly from District 9 to floating. Space Station fascist Jody Foster.

What's that movie called? Elysium. Elysium, yes. I think what's interesting about Rami Malik's Oscar win that, you know, we do not endorse. There's really no movie success between Mr. Robot

and Bohemian Rhapsody. It's just kind of a zero to 100 type of thing. How dare you brush past the Papillon remake? How dare you, sir? And Buster's Malhart, how dare I? But yeah, there's no, you know, there was not these kind of degrees. Though, again, he's someone who he'd been in other movies before. He'd been in Paul Thomas Anderson movies, for God's sake.

He was probably, you know, much more well established within the industry as people knew who he was than even audiences. Oh, he was also in Breaking Dawn Part 2. It's Twilight Saga Breaking Dawn Part 2, which I only remember because I've watched. watched that bizarre finale, dream sequence, battle, beheadings everywhere, a thing several times, because it's just very funny. Anywho, so... I am not interested in relitigating Bohemian Rhapsody in any way whatsoever, but I am glad to hear that people love Rami Mollock in the new Iris Sacks movie, The Man I Love.

Yes. I'd be very happy to see that whenever I get the chance. to see that. Yeah, do we think we have a chance of seeing it this year or do you think it's going to be a next year thing? Well, nothing's been announced. It's very possible that someone has distribution for that movie already and it just hasn't, you know, been announced. But we'll see. I would imagine it'll be at New York Festival, if nothing else. Well, that would be great. I would love that. He has an odd string of post- Oscar roles, though. being, you know, kind of forgotten or underrepresented elements in movies that do actually get attention and talked about. Like, he's got two and a half scenes in Oppenheimer. He's the villain of No Time to Die.

Yes, he sure is. Yep. Something we don't talk about. He's in Nuremberg, a movie that everyone was like, well, that's the movie for your dad. And I don't even think dad saw that movie. Do you feel like people's desire to ultimately, that ultimately people get bored with having the same opinion on somebody for too long? That at some point,

it's going to be chic to like Rami Mollock in things. Well, he has to be more prominent in things again. Right. But I just do feel like that role is waiting out there. Like he's eventually going to be in something. And people are going to be like, you know who's actually going to be? You know, you're all wrong, and actually we've been underrating.

And honestly, Mr. Robot is kind of that. Because, like, the people who stuck with Mr. Robot all really, really ride for that show in a way that I want to go back and watch it. True. Because I did get frustrated at the beginning of season two, and I sort of drifted away from it. But, like, to a person, everybody I ever talked to or hear from who watched that whole series the whole way through is, like, no, it's fantastic. and is like really, really smart about, you know, technology and this kind of thing.

So I do kind of owe myself to jump back into the robot. I think it only lasted like four or five seasons, so I don't think it would be too, too, too much. And it's got Grace Gummer in it, and you know how much I love Grace Gummer. We'll also talk about Rami Malik whenever we want to punish ourselves by doing a little things episode. I'm kind of looking forward. to doing a Little Things episode. I think we'll have a hoot of a time. So, yeah.

All right. So this movie, while not being an Oscar player, and I don't know if anybody ever really thought it would seriously contend, but, like, had a decent showing through the critics season, right? Like, Bree won, or sorry, was runner-up for Best Actress at the Boston Society of Film Critics. She was one of the nominees for Best Actress at the Chicago Film Critics. We mentioned that she was an Indy Spirits nominee. She won the Gotham Award for Best Actress.

Now I want to go in and see what those Gotham Awards were up to. It's the only place she beat Blanchet. Oh, and Blanchet was nominated there. Okay. Yes, Best Actress. She beat Blanchet. Carlett Johansson and Don John work. Amy Simets in Upstream Color and Shaline Woodley in the Span.

spectacular now. Was short-term 12 nominated anywhere else? No. No. Okay. Not through Breakthrough Director, which is a little surprising. Yes. Yes, it is. And she's nominated at Critics' Choice, which is, I guess, really shows you how central she was to the...

to at least the media critics conversation there. She was kind of the first name mentioned on the, like, not going to get nominated, but you know who should get nominated kind of thing. Because it really is just her and then everybody with like major buzz. It's Blanchet, Sandra Bullock for Gravity, Judy Dent for Philomania, Merrill for August O'Sage County, Emma Thompson for Saving Mr. Banks.

And Amy Adams very kind of strangely not nominated in lead actress at... You know why? choice but wins their comedy actress prize. And I believe that was aired, right? Like, that made it onto the air. Part of that is, for that telecast. Is that one of the interesting things about critics' choice is they are such a barometer of early season buzz. Yes. And so Amy Adams' best actress, like movement didn't happen until late. I think initially the buzz on that performance was pretty bad. And most people were like, Like, it's going to be a Jennifer Lawrence supporting actress play.

I think initially people were talking about Amy Adams in the supporting category, and people were like, oh, Jennifer Lawrence has, you know, got her beat. And then it wasn't until that season kept going along, and she got the Golden Globe nomination. And I think that was around when people were like, you know what? Like, people sort of came around to that performance, and she ends up getting that nomination. But yes, I think if you ever sort of look to the incongruities in the Critics' Choice nominations, you can almost always chalk that up to, oh, this was where the buzz was in early November. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah.

We should also mention short-term 12 made it onto the National Border of Review's top 10 independent films list. Heck yeah. Along with Ainth and Body Saints, Dallas Buyers Club in a world ellipsis, Mother of George, Much Addo About Nothing, Yikes, Mud, The Place Beyond the Pines, sightseers, and The Spectacular Now. This is a really good list, I have to say. It's a really fascinating list for sure. And I also think a list that indicates it was mostly studio movies in the race for Oscar this year.

Yes. Ain't Them Body Saints we've done, mud we've done, Place Beyond the Pines we've done, now we've done short term 12. I do want to do the spectacular now at some point, a movie that was very, very popular for a very brief window of time. I remember thinking it was great. I remember liking it too, and I remember being like a fan of James Ponsold in particular and was sort of dismayed that his movie career just kind of, you know,

petered out, and he ended up becoming very much a TV director, although he's got a feature film coming out soon, which is a psychological thriller starring Jason Siegel and John C. Riley and Damien, which all sounds odd enough that I want to see what it is. It's distributed, it says distributed by Apple TV, so I wonder if it's going to be a Apple TV. movie that is a theatrical release or an Apple TV movie that is a The Gorge style direct to Apple TV. We'll see. I root for James Ponsult, though, so... Ditto.

Very much, ditto. It's just like James Ponsult hit at the exact wrong time for somebody who wants to make the type of movies that he makes. And, like, suddenly, like, his perspective became somewhat. unfashionable in like independent filmmaking. Well, and then he makes the circle, which is such a disaster. And a high profile one because it's got Tom Hanks and Emma Watson in it. And they tried to bury it as much as they could, but they couldn't bury it deep enough. And then he made this movie summering that I never saw in 2020.

Lake Bell is in that movie, among others. Nat Sanders won the Indy Spirit Award for editing shortly before getting an Oscar nomination alongside Joy McMillan for editing Moonlight. It's an interesting... I mean, I think part of that maybe is just sort of like well done to get this movie at 96 minutes to, you know, slow so well and to tell its story.

The emotional rhythms, et cetera. What I think is interesting there is the kind of history of Indy Spirit Award winners for Best Editing that win nothing else. Because this year, wasn't it, go to like, I'm going to have to look this up. I'm pretty sure it went to. Oh, this is also the first year for the Indy Spirit Award for Best Editing. Oh, okay. The inaugural winner.

It's usually not the same movies that are, they try to steer away from what is in their best feature. nominee. Yeah, I was right about this. What do you think the best editing winner was at the most recent Indy Spirit Awards? Oh my God. Okay, so what were the big Indies last year? None of these movies were in their best feature nominee, I will say, among the nominee lineups. Is it like, um, um, if I had legs, I'd kick you? No. A movie that was in the same Oscar race, like, it's best chances, yeah. What do you mean? If I had legs, I'd kick you, and this movie had its best Oscar chances in the same race.

Oh, and Best Actress? Yes. An Lee? Testament of Anne Lee won the Ediths Prize at Indies Spirit. That's interesting. Against Ephus, Good Boy, Splitsville, and Warfare. Huh. None of them best feature nominees.

Interesting. Okay, yeah, now I'm looking up this category. September 5 1 in 20204 How to Blu Up a Pipeline, 2023, Zola 2021 Interesting.

Interesting, interesting, interesting. Well, well. Not a lot of overlap with Hindi Spirit best feature and best editing. Let's talk about the song. Okay, yes, I really want to get into this because I was writing hard for this song to make it forward in this race

because the sequence is so good. I mean, Stanfield performs it so well. Set it up a little bit for people who maybe haven't seen. So his character is one of the more outspoken and troubled characters among the kids in the short-term housing facility, but he is also ending his time there. He's a few weeks away from turning 18, which means he will be a legal adult. and can no longer be at the, you know, housing center. And we don't necessarily know much of his background.

He's one of the more stoic, you know, keeps to himself characters. And then he has this song that happens where we get a, like, glimpse into a lot of the background that we don't know about the character. You get the sense that, like, Mason is the one he can open up. too historically. So Mason's there and sitting next to him and he says, you know, do you want to, you know,

play me a bit of your song or something like that? Yeah. And, you know, I think as far as the movie, you know, we've talked to, or at least I've said,

you know, there's a lot about this movie that approaches the element of cloying. But this, I think, is like the most far removed from that that the movie gets. It's entirely unsentimental.

Yeah, it doesn't really, really, yeah. It doesn't ask for, you know, empty sympathy. And it,

it's also a good song, too. It's maybe a brief song. Yes. You know, but I think it, bracing is a perfect word for it.

It's just, it's the moment in the movie where the movie kind of stops still. Yeah. There's anger in it. There's, there's, you know,

sadness in it. There's, you know, um. And I think, it's like the epicenter for all of the praise that Stanfield got for this performance in particular.

Yes. And then on top of that, it is a good song. You know, and not a great moment for Oscar original song, except it kind of was, because this is when you would have popular noteworthy songs this year, including by

popular artists. Let It Go is obviously going to win this Oscar all season long. Other nominees include songs by Farrell, Karen O, doing the song from Her, ladies and gentlemen, her. And then the

U-2 song from Mandela. Endella Long Walk to Freedom. And, alone yet, not alone. Not for long. Getting that erroneous nomination because shady, shady doings. And then it gets disqualified.

Here's my, my pitch is, much like how, in certain states when a sitting politician either vacates their seat or, you know, for some reason or another, moves up, has to resign, dies, something like that.

In some states, the governor of that state will appoint a, you know, the replacement rather than, you know, the voters have an emergency election or something like that. In the case of an alone yet not alone being disqualified. Rather than leave that slot vacated, they should have allowed a

committee, a select committee, to appoint a fifth nominee. And that's the only way I could see so you know what it's like getting nominated for that. Right. Like, this is part of the thing. When I'm all about a nomination happening, it usually means that it is entirely unlikely. also I should be on that committee. Well, yeah, obviously. Yes, that goes without saying. Also, in the race this year, that Taylor Swift song for the Paul Potts movie. Okay, let's talk about it.

Because here's the thing that I'm going to be revisiting a lot this season. Taylor Swift's long history of getting snubbed by the academy. Like, it is a thing. And as much as, you know, there's no. No, we can't wish it away. This is a thing that is, you know, real. So just everybody keep that in mind. Taylor Swift has never been nominated.

Toy Story has never not been nominated. So something's got to give. That is what the movie Something's Got to Give is about, is about this particular phenomenon. Yes. Can they go into my notes? Absolutely. Let's do final notes. I think I've got to.

Oh, my final note on short term 12, I so quickly wrote down, not Big Booty. Big Booty old theater game featured prominently. That's how I learned Big Booty. We did Big Booty as like a theater warm-up. You didn't do Zip. Booty featured prominently in short-term 12. You didn't do Zip-Zap or whatever.

Oh, we did stuff like that. Yeah, but like Big Booty, Big Booty was a favorite. And is the idea of just like you call out different people in the circle and they have to remember the sequence? Yeah, it's a it's a reflex game that like, you know, you're trying to pay attention and listen to your partners. You know, you're trying to all be paying attention and, you know. And of course, like there's winners and losers in Big Booty, much like Big Boots in real life. There are winners and losers. but everyone is together.

It is not punitive if you lose Big Booty. In real life, it is punitive if you lose your Big Booty. Sometimes I really do wish I had decided to be a theater kid at some point. I feel like I could have... That's the kind of nonsense that I feel like I might have been... I was going to be weird and made fun of anyway. I might as well have just been in theater. You're there not to be a parent or a therapist.

You're there to create a safe space. I really thought that was a real... really good line. Also, the quote she has, when she's telling, when Grace is telling Jaden about her own cutting, and she shows her her scars, and there's the line, it's impossible to worry about anything else when there's blood coming out of you, is you always sort of hear about, you know, people who cut and whatever, and it's about control, and it's about sort of, you know, them trying to assert some level of control. And that is a well-written way of putting that, I think.

It turns out I didn't take a ton of notes. So I also mentioned the Rami Mollock making the underprivileged kids' fopat. He really is just sort of like a goony guy, although I really thought it was very sweet when he finds this little statue, the little figurine that Sammy wasn't allowed to have anymore. and he brought it into him. And I thought that was very sweet. And I thought that was, again, a moment to show the growth that this character had,

where he had really sort of like he couldn't figure it, he couldn't figure it out. He wouldn't jump rope with the girls because Brie Larson had told him earlier, like, you should just, you know, say no a lot at first. And that's not quite what she meant. but I thought that was a good sort of way of showing that he was starting to figure it out figure out how to create the bonds with these kids so yeah would you like to move into the IMDB game let's would you like to explain the IMDB game every week we end our episodes with

the IMDB game wherein we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress and we try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television shows, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits that will be mentioned up front. After someone gets two wrong guesses, they will receive the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. All right, that's the IMDB game. Would you like to give her guess first? I'll give first. All right, who do you have for me? So, Destin Daniel Cretton, in addition to the films that he directed is one of five credited screenwriters on a movie called The Shack, which is a movie about...

Oh, no. Not Octavia Spencer playing Jesus. Octavia Spencer playing Jesus in a wooded shack. The star of that movie, the person who seeks out Octavia Spencer God in the shack, is Sam Worthington. Sure. And you being a fan of the things that you are a fan of, I wonder if you might be able to really, really... It's possible that Jake Suli is not there. I am going to say Clash of the Titans, though. Yes, where he plays Perseus, the lead of that movie. Yes, very good.

I will also say Avatar. Yes. What's some of the other action crap that he's been in? I'll say the way of water. Yes. Okay. Three for three. Um,

fine, I'll say the shack. It's not the shack, although that would have been amazing. All right, one strike. It's not going to be fire and ash. Because I feel like you wouldn't have pulled it. This is probably going to be the most, one of the most difficult, uh, or one of the more difficult action movies that, like, don't exist or like something where he's a spy.

It has to at least be semi-funny funny for you to have picked this. What do I even remember him being in, though? This is the problem with Sam Worthington. It's the essential Sam Worthington conundrum. Yeah.

What got him cast in Avatar, though? Because Clash of the Titans, I think, was after. Is he in... I'm just going to say this because Australia. is he an animal kingdom? No, I don't believe he is. I forget the cast of Animal Kingdom.

It's Joel Edgerton you're thinking of. And Ben Mendelsohn, but I think there's a secret third thing that's not Jackie Weaver in that movie. But it's not Ben Middleton. It's the one guy from Sunfuckers, whose name I can never remember. All right, those are my two wrong answers. Oh, okay, 2009. Okay. So same year's Avatar.

Ooh. Is it like smoking aces? It's not smoking aces. It was a big movie that summer. Nobody ever really talks about this movie. It is a... It's part of a franchise. And it's a franchise that has had a hard time reestablishing itself.

And this was one of the attempts to reestablish it. Interesting. So it's like a franchise that was popular or successful in the 80s. Starting in the 80s, yeah. Okay, so like 80s and 90s franchise. Due to the nature of this. Oh, no, it's Terminator Genesis. It's not Genesis.

Or Terminator Salvation. Terminator Salvation, yes. Where he's nominally like the star. This was the one of Christian Bale It goes off on his tirade. But yeah, Terminator Do you want to be to trash your lights? The nature of the Terminator story

means that like all of the movies in this franchise are part of more or less the same continuum. But every new one post Terminator 3. Judgment Day. Well, I would even like, I would include Rise of the Machines in there because like that feels like,

By the end of that movie, you get Judgment Day. And everything since then has felt like an attempt to reboot it with new cast members. And nothing has really stuck. And it's just like Judgment Day still like slap so hard. Oh, yeah. And that is a movie that has held up so well. And there is a zero percent chance that they will make another Terminator movie that even approaches being good. I agree with that.

All right. What do you got for me? All right. I went into the Destin Cretton filmography, and I pulled from Just Murphy. Just Murphy. Just Murphy. Just Michael Murphy. It's, you know, that's the name of the Michael Murphy documentary would watch.

From Just Mercy, Michael B. Jordan. Okay. Well, Michael B. Jordan. Creed. Creed is correct. Sinners. Sinicess is incorrect. Not there yet.

Okay. Fruitvale Station? Correct. Black Panther? Correct. Okay. So, there's Wakanda Forever, which he is briefly in. There is Creed 2 and Creed 3.

There is no television, right? No television. Okay. Just mercy is a possibility, honestly. I don't think it's going to be like Fantastic Four. I don't think it's going to be like Chronicle. I don't think it's going to be, what is it, that awkward feeling, that comedy he did with that awkward moment with him and I want to say Zach Afron and someone.

I'm going to say Just Mercy. Just Mercy is also incorrect. What's my year? Your year is 2018. So... Not Wakanda forever. Is that Creed 2? Creed 2.

All right. Okay. That makes sense. I think at some point sinners will end up in there and we'll drop out something. So, yeah. I tell you what, I am really excited for whatever the hell he's doing with Thomas Crown Affair. Yes. Yes.

Not that I care about either Thomas Crown movies. I just feel like Michael B. Jordan. directing and starring in a spy movie. I'm fully on board. I'm imagining you dropping a disc track against Thomas Crown the person and just be like, Thomas Crown makes shit. Thomas Crown the person who does suck. I mean, he's a billionaire.

Isn't Thomas Crown a billionaire? It's like a billionaire thief as if he doesn't have enough? As if he doesn't have enough. No more billionaire. He's just bored. You're going to be out there in front of the movie theater showing the Thomas Crown affair with a little placard that just says billionaires shouldn't exist. I promise you there will be people on blue sky being like,

Thomas Crown is a billionaire. So why are we supporting this movement? And it's just like things are allowed to be dumb. Case and point. When I say it, it's a joke. Case and point. Not a grad school paper. This is this podcast. All right.

Well, you take it. You're in charge. Oh, yes, of course. That's our episode. If you want more This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thishatoscurbuzz.com. You should also follow us on Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz. and on Patreon at patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? Blue Sky Letterboxed at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D,

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