This Had Oscar Buzz - 405 – She Said

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

After their 2017 exposé of the horrors Harvey Weinstein inflicted upon women for decades, Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey detailed their process in their 2019 book She Said. Post-pandemic, Maria Schrader directed an adaptation that reflected the lives of both reporters in tandem with their work and their struggle to get women on the record about … Continue reading "405 – She Said"

What's up, Gary's. Just a quick announcement up top of the episode here that Vultures Movies Fantasy League is back again for its sixth season, and we are once again having a mini league for listeners and fans of this head Oscar buzz. If you haven't played before, you can head over to vulture.com slash movies dash league to get the full details, including a look at the rad prizes you could win, including a 65-inch Roku TV, PlayStation 5, merch from A24, neon, and criterion, and much more. The gist of the game, if you haven't played before, it's like fantasy football, but for movies. You draft an eight-film roster from the movies of 2006, and then once we get to October 2nd, your selections can start accruing points from their box office earnings, from their awards performance, critical performance, etc. We even have a new category this season for letterboxed star rankings. Your team score will compete against everybody else who signs up for the game, but you can also

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What is it exactly that we're looking at here? These young women walked into what they all had reason to believe were business meetings. I can still see at the hotel and the floor plan. He kept trying to touch me. I asked him to leave me alone. Instead, they say he met them with threats and sexual demands. I was young. I'm scared. Hi.

We're from the New York Times. I believe he used to work for Harvey Weinstein. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that's talking to Phil Collins people. But then again, aren't we all? Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations,

but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my clandestine Bryant Park coffee date. Chris Fyle. Hello, Chris. We're going to separate coffee huts, too. There was so much Bryant Park in this.

I was just like, oh, I wish I was sitting at Bryant Park watching this on a laptop or something like that. It was so nice. 100% someone has what she said. a laptop in Brian Park before. Yeah, that's probably too, on an award screen or something like that. It's odd that that was, that's my first reaction to a movie, like she said, is just like, the locations. Like, I remember when I...

There are a million of them in this movie, because when... Before I started this movie and was doing just preliminary work, I thought, oh, this movie has a high budget. And then you watch the movie and there, you know, location shots on beaches. There's, you know, various locations. They're going through, you know, Connecticut and such. Endless establishing shots of that one stretch of 8th Avenue. And of course, I used to live right off of that stretch of 8th Avenue.

So I was just like, home. I know that McDonald's. I used to walk past that McDonald's every day on my way home. Sure. There's, you know, establishing shots in this movie that you're like, New York really is beautiful at 2.30 in the morning. Yeah. Yes.

Or at like three in the afternoon when you're just like crossing 6th Avenue or something like that. In your sensual separates. Exactly. Man, underrated wardrobe movie, she said, just for everything that Carrie Mulligan and Zoe Kazan are wearing that scene where they show up and they're wearing the exact same thing. There's a little bit of a sly sense of humor to running through this movie that I do. Yes, that I wish there was more of. Sure. I will say, I couldn't remember exactly, this is one of those movies that is a casualty, I think, of award season sometime, and that, like, you're watching so many things in such quick succession that, like, it's hard sometimes to let certain things settle in. And I genuinely, I was watching this movie, and I'm like, what did I think of, she said the first time around? It's like, I didn't really quite remember. And while it's a movie that makes you, does make you think of other better movies, I still feel like I really like

this movie, a good bit. I definitely, uh, the flaws of this movie bothered me less than when I saw it in the theater and mostly because I think the flawed stuff is in the first 45 minutes, half hour of this movie. And then there's a scene that'll really just like grind things to a halt later in the movie, but I do think, you know, this is an efficient watchable movie. I think some of it was the scenes that don't work in this movie are like, I don't even want to say info dump scenes, but there's these didactic scenes where you have multiple people talking to each other, where they're saying things and conversations, research that they've done off screen. I talked to this person and they said this. I talked to this person and they said this. Well,

I've been working on trying to talk to this person and I haven't talked to this person yet. And it's that kind of stilted and like this is a process movie, but it doesn't do it as elegantly as again, like you said, the better movies that it recalls. Yeah. And I think the good stuff in this movie is yes, some of the process stuff is good, but I think when you're trying to track the long course of reporting a story, those scenes end up relaying information and names and circumstances that we

and the audience are well aware of from studying this story. I kind of can't imagine a person sitting down to this movie and not being aware of this story and its elements. Don't know who that audience member is. Sure. But maybe they don't know all of the... They probably know the principles.

They know like a few of the more bold-faced names. But they might not know the extent to which some of this stuff was, you know, open secrets. Sure. I mean, and the movie gets to... more of that. I think when they're first, you know, jumping into the case and trying to get information and, you know, people on the record, it's a, it's slower going. Yeah. And it's a little more crunchy in that way. It's reflected a little bit in the movie in some of the various scenes with Zach Grin-Yea I'm thinking of in one sense and where it's like, people knew,

knew, and I'm using sort of air quotes, about Harvey Weinstein, but I think what people knew about him wasn't all the same and wasn't all complete. Whereas Zach Grinier's character talks about how, like, oh, I assumed it was just like, you know, a bunch of like extramarital stuff.

And I think a lot of people, you know, had heard all the stories about him, like, you know, verbally abusing his assistants and, you know, throwing stuff at them sort of like Scott. I mean, it's well on the record that he physically assaulted that guy over the shine purchase. Right. At Sundance. So we know that he's a violent person as well. And so, and those were the things that people readily looked away from. And so the degree to which people knew what he was doing, I, people talk about how, you know, how could people, you know, act surprised by some of the stuff that came out. And I certainly agree with that because I was just like when these revelations

came out, I was like, well, that, yeah, that, you know, not to be like, well, I knew it all along, you know what I mean? But like, that kind of behavior isn't surprising, given what we are, given what we already knew about him. But I think there had been a lot of compartmentalization, certainly with, you know, people in the industry. And people being like, oh, well, he's just, you know, he's mean. He can be, you know, physically intimidating. He's a bully. He's a, you know, what was that? It makes me cringe now, thinking back to it, that one Merrill Streep comment in her acceptance speech for him pretty sure it was the Iron Lady when she thanks Harvey Weinstein. No, she thanks God. And then she makes a joke about like how, you know, thank you, you know,

thank you, God. Isn't it the same thing? And then she's just like, Old Testament, Old Testament. And it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, the joke is that like he's this, you know, domineering, bullying, you know, harsh figure, whatever. And you could joke about that side of Harvey Weinstein back then, A, because people sort of accepted that kind of behavior as the, you know, purview of a studio head like that and somebody who, you know, had successes. And people who, you know, hated him were, you know, professionally envious and whatnot. There's also generational history of sexual abuse in Hollywood and within the Hollywood system and the people at the very top that, you know, as awful as this is, I think there's truth to it that with that extended history and no intervention to make it stop, either by the law or by, you know, the general populace responding to this information and seeing the details. the clear light of day, calling for change and, like, yeah, peer pressure within the industry

and stuff like that. I think that there, it does create a smokescreen that allows a monster like Harvey Weinstein to continue, you know, when there's a history of that type of, you know, evil behavior, it allows someone to perpetrate it again, you know. But it does make sense to me that seeing. the extent of the sexual assault, the, you know, the rape accusations, that stuff, in black and white like that, it does make sense to me that that was a thing that people didn't allow themselves to think about, didn't, you know, didn't, wanted to believe that it wasn't, you know, stuff like that.

You can call that, you know, willful naivety if you want, if you want to. But, like, that, to me, I think, is why a story. like, you know, the one that is dramatized and she said, is important because, like, you can have all the whisper campaigns you want, and it's easier to brush it aside. When you see it in, you know, in black and white like this, it's, it matters more. I think the most interesting stuff about she, it's, there's this weird tension in this movie. The stuff that we say feels like the movie kind of. Not just telling, not showing, but like the movie talking at us rather than presenting the story of this. That to me is the stuff that sticks out more so than like the expositiony stuff, is the movie constantly telling us why it's important, constantly telling us, you know, underlining what's at stake for these women, underlining why they're not coming forward, that kind of a thing.

And it's in tension with what I think is the most interesting, you know, angle that this movie has and that it's like, it's similar to spotlight. It's very much about the systematic process of how you go about reporting these stories and getting them to publish so that you can affect this type of change. I think that's interesting. I think it's very, very interesting when it talks, when it shows what it's like to be apparent, go through your own type of personal struggles and do this type of work. which, you know, you may see dabs of that through something like

Spotlight. Yes. But whenever it comes up in this movie, I think it's very interesting and allows us to emotionally connect to these two protagonists. Yes. But there's not enough.

I wish there was more of that. You know, you have Carrie Mulligan talking about postpartum depression. I think the best scene of the movie is when Zoe Kazan is on a Zoom with her daughter and her young daughter says the word rape for the first time. And watching Kazan sort of react to it in a way that is she doesn't want to freak out. Yeah.

That's the best scene of the movie. Yeah. It's really good. And it's a scene of, you know, two characters on Zoom. Yeah, I think there is, I think, a lot to like in this movie. I went back and I sort of skimmed through. the reviews. The reviews, which were largely positive, I think I had remembered this movie being more poorly reviewed than it was, but I think what it was was that there was a ceiling on how

much people praised this movie. I think this movie got praised for being good, but you didn't see a ton of like... Enthusiasm. It's bracing. It's groundbreaking. It's whatever. I think there was a sense that, like, there are moments in the movie that are a little clunky, overly didactic, but in general, Maria Schrader sort of, you know, holds the line with it. It did make me think what the reception for the movie would have been, but also what the movie would have been, had it have been directed by somebody with a little bit more of, like a confident, you know, visual signature, that kind of the thing. Even though, like, obviously, this is a, you know, Meat and Potatoes movie. This isn't really a movie that needs a ton of, like,

flourish. Right. Because a lot of those scenes where it does feel like the movie's just giving you details, it's talking at you, it's in static shots, you know. Well, it's hard to watch this movie and not think of Spotlight specifically, but I had also, I, you know, waxed Repsotic about the Insider earlier this summer when I had watched it, and so I did think of that as well. But, like, Spotlight is another, you know, story about a major metropolitan newspaper going up against an incredibly powerful, you know, structural entity about cases involving sexual abuse. And so it's like, you know, the comparisons are plentiful. And I think in both cases, you have this sort of investigation that is constantly running up against things like, you know, sort of brick walls.

I think the thing with She said is there's just a lot more of them. I think so much of the climax of She said is waiting for a handful. of people to sort of agree to, you know, to go on the record. Whereas in spotlight, it's a lot more of like, there are smoking guns to uncover and there are, you know, there are documents and there are connections that are made. And it's more of a, of a mystery a little bit of like who knew what and when, whereas the Weinstein case isn't so much that. The Weinstein case is one of those things where it's like, everybody sort of knew what the score was from the beginning. It was just a matter of getting the right people to come forward. And, you know, a lot of that, to me, a lot of that are the best

scenes of the movie. I think Jennifer Ely's performance and, you know, most of her stuff. Jennifer Ely is incredible. I mean, Jennifer Ely, incredible in a movie, I believe it. Yeah. Jennifer Ely, I think, is the performance of the movie. though another performance we have to talk about we'll get into it further on the other side of the plot description the reason why I was like oh we should do this movie now one scene wonder Samantha Morton

Samantha Morton is also the performance that kind of you can feel this movie struggling to be like how do we get people who don't know about this case to care or how do we get people who think oh this is the people who grossly think, oh, it's just a bunch of famous people, they're fine, who cares? How do we get those people to show why this was so important?

Well, they have a scene where they actually... Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Morton carries the way to that, because Morton does the one time, I think, that this movie, you know, really underlines what the point is and it works, is she says that it is truly about the whole system of sexual abuse in the workplace, and that's why it matters. Yeah. Well, the fact that, like, she had to sign these, you know, agreements that barred her from talking to a therapist, from talking to her family members, from just, like, the degree to which these NDAs, you know, overstep

the boundaries of any kind of, like, you know, common sense legal, you know, purview that they are, you know, so intrusive and they are so, you know, draconian and whatnot. And ultimately served as apparatuses for Weinstein to continue spying on these women for decades after. I think arguably, and again, review the movie that exists and not the movie that doesn't exist, but I think arguably there is a stronger movie out there to be made about, you know, the culture of NDAs and, you know, what, you know, what they have wrought and the abuses of them and how sort of insane they all are, and how mostly how when you, you know, come down to it,

most of the excesses of this thing are just not legally supportable in any kind of way. But it's intimidation tactics. It's frightening tactics. I also think the thing that is like vastly underestimated, even though if you, everybody who thinks about it for half a second realizes it's true is it is so financially onerous to pursue anything legally. You know what I mean? That it is so... And that's where elements of power come into play when the powers of people obviously

have more money than you. I remember thinking about this, this is a little bit of a, you know, little far afield. But thinking about this when people were talking about the distinction between a civil union versus a marriage and what the difference is, If it's the same protections and whatnot, why have to push so hard for the word marriage? And the idea was that marriage is something that is already legally enshrined. You don't have to, fight for it. The idea of having, you know, the idea of a civil partnership is something that can be, you can reach a roadblock for that.

And then you would go to a lawyer and you would, pursue it legally and you'd win, but would you, you know, go to the expense of having to go through? You know, it's a matter of what stands between a person regardless of their means and justice, right? And what often stands between that is a huge and incredibly expensive legal system that essentially makes it impossible for almost anybody who doesn't have, a ton of money to pursue anything legally. So, and I think, whatever, and again, that's not really, you know, what this movie is about necessarily, but it is what is, you know, underlying a lot of this stuff is the systemic stuff

is how people like Weinstein were able to, you know, arrange an army of publicists and lawyers and friends in the media and, you know, all this sort of stuff. And, you know, all this sort of stuff. And, you know, all this sort of stuff. Not, uh, certainly not the Russian mob to spy on these people. Yeah. To intimidate these people. Yeah.

So anyway, it's a whole, it's a whole thing. It is a thing that is bigger than the movie. And the movie understands this and, you know, focuses as much as it does. I think. it's a movie that I think is largely successful at sidestepping the more obvious landmines which are how do you dramatize Harvey Weinstein how do you deal with the fact that you have boldface names I think getting

Ashley Judd's participation to actually appear as a performer, a performer as herself in this movie Gwyneth does too just on the phone just on the phone just not on screen right I think those are are risky propositions that I think the movie ultimately manages to succeed with. I think I'm not at any point, I don't think, pulled out of the movie by those parts of the movie. But you might feel differently. I feel differently. I think this was one of the things that I saw harshest in the reviews

that the performers of both Harvey Weinstein and Rose McGowan, who obviously Rose McGowan was less successful to me. That was who, I don't know who did her voice, but it was not as successful. Respect to those actors,

but those pull you out of it. And I think especially the Harvey Weinstein scenes, it would be, I mean, it feels like a tense moment that you want to include in the drama, those very tense phone calls. I think keeping him entirely off-screen would have been better. See, I think it would have stood out more. I think it would have been, I don't know. The average viewer of the movie doesn't know what Harvey Weinstein sounds like.

So I can see why that choice would be making, whereas, yes, the Rose McGowan one is like, that sounds like. That sounds like adjacent to Rose McGowan, but it does pull you somewhat out of the movie. There's also just this uncanny element that when famous actresses say the words famous actresses in a movie, it's just kind of uncanny and hard to avoid. Yeah. No, that is true. You know. Yes. Okay.

Before we get into the plot too much, let's, you know, let's back up, we'll give the boilerplate for this movie, and we'll do the plot description. But before that, Chris, why don't you let our listeners know why they should subscribe to our Patreon? Listen, our Patreon has been kicking around for a few years now. So we have so many episodes for you to partake in, and you can still get it at the price. It's always been. Have we gone through inflation? We have not.

So for $5 a month, you're going. going to get this had Oscar Buzz turbulent brilliance. It's more of the show you already love, though, a little bit different. You'll get two bonus episodes every month. The first and third Fridays are when those released. That first Friday episode is what we call exceptions. Those are movies that fit that this had Oscar Buzz rubric, but managed to score an Oscar nomination or two, including starting at the beginning of this month.

We are in September. Mike Lee's happy go lucky You know I love Mike Lee At this point that this episode drops I will have seen the new Mike Lee Probably still crying about it Yes So yes we have happy go lucky coming up

But what other exceptions episodes have we done Most recently we've done joy Mop Movie Joy We've done 90s Like Contact my best Friends' Wedding, interview with a vampire. We've done masterpieces like Mulholland Drive when Harry met Sally. We've done not masterpieces, like Madonna's W.E.

Rob Marshall's 9, Mary Queen of Scots, debatable masterpieces, like the Black Dahlia. I guess you could also say AI artificial. intelligence, but if you don't like that movie, you're wrong, but there are many of you out there. That second episode on the third Friday of the month, these we call excursions. They're deep dives into Oscar nerdery. We love to obsess about on this show. Things like EW. Fall Movie previews, Hollywood Reporter Actress Round Tables. We recap old award shows like Golden Globes.

We've done actual Oscar ceremonies. This month, we will. be talking about the 2000 MTV movie awards and all of Sarah Jessica Parker's hosting duties and costume changes. Yes. Uh, that's a very fun episode. That should be coming this week. Exciting.

How exciting. Very exciting. Fun episode. Go watch that ceremony over on YouTube. Shocking that it's still up there, but it's up. Listen, nobody move. Nobody say anything too loud. and everything.

Do not tell anything to... Paramount of Viacom... Paramount, yes. Don't tell Paramount anything. I mean, don't talk to this. Good rule of thumb. Speaking of Megan Ellison being a producer on this movie, don't tell Paramount anything.

Do we know, is she... I mean, she's still, like, associated with her family. Do we know what the story is there? Is she like David Ellison? I mean, the more you sort of hear about this, I'm sure it's not great. Succession has changed my, you know, the way I view all of these things. I now view all of these movies like Succession and I'm just like, all right, what a, how, how mean is she to David on like at family functions and stuff like that?

But, yeah, watching, looking at the producing credits for this movie and seeing Brad Pitt and Megan Ellison and stuff like that, you do realize that just like. This except people that Brad Pitt produced this movie. Let's talk about this. Go over to patreon.com slash this head Oscar Buzz and sign up for turbulent brilliance. It doesn't ever seem like Brad Pitt is all that involved with the production of Plan B movies. No. It seems nominal at this point.

Because like Plan B produced I Saw the TV Globe. Right. Bradfitt has never said a word about that movie. Well, when Yu-Jing-un won her. her Oscar for Minari, didn't she say, like, thank you to Brad Pitt, like, we've never met before, and, you know, but you're a producer on the movie? Like, I imagine that that is the case for a lot of these things, you know, that, you know, perhaps, you know, Dedy Gardner is the, you know, workhorse in that relationship. But, like, but yes.

But he never talks about the movies that Plan B produces anymore. Right. But I don't think it's necessarily a thing to get angry about. But I do think it's one of those things where you you look at the credits for this movie and you do, it does settle in. Maybe, you know, and certainly not, you know, this wasn't an intention of the movie, but like it settles in how much, how much of this industry is compromised in, you know, various different ways and in an unavoidable ways. And in the fact that, like, this is just, it is a much more complicated, you know, the web of interests and personality.

and, you know, that, that, and, and, and this is something I want to sort of get into on the other side of the plot description, but the idea of why this movie didn't catch on the way that other movies did. And I think it's very easy to just be like, well, it wasn't quite good enough. And I think there are other reasons why not only this movie, but I think in general, the sort of the Harvey, Weinstein story had a ceiling on it in terms of the notoriety, the way in which Hollywood responded to it, and we'll get into

that on the other side of the plot description. If I'm sounding a little bit more careful in the way that I'm talking about this, I am just because I think this is it, I don't want to be flippant about any of this kind of stuff. And I want to be a little bit more considered when speaking of these things that are, A, very immediate, and be, you know, incredibly serious. And so forgive me if...

I think some of what you're alluding to is the... Generally positive, but, you know, chilly kind of response that this movie received. Yeah. To me, particularly in hindsight, I think there was, because we're talking about a movie that's like better than multiple of its year's best picture nominee. Yes. Oh, we'll talk about the 2022 of it all. Yes, I agree. Don't want to belabor this.

It's also the better movie that features a one-scene performance from Samantha Morton that very year. Oh, we'll talk about it. I don't want to talk about it anymore. Wait, what's the other movie? The whale. Oh, I totally forgot she's in that movie. This is also still... This is...

Wait, was the whale 22 or 23? No, the whale was 22. It was also just a tough time for movies like this in that they died kind of on the vine every weekend. If it was a movie for adults. I was very surprised to be reminded that this movie opened wide. And I know that it's a universal, you know, a distribution, so that shouldn't surprise me. But this movie never felt to me like a movie that was being taken to a wide audience, you know.

So. And I think the unfortunate thing, I think the unfair thing to this movie is somewhat timing. because the thing I think you were kind of trying to find the delicate way to say is that the large populace wanted to kind of move on from the Harvey Weinstein discussion, which is how these type of crimes continue to get perpetrated and how the culture continues is that, you know, certain people decide they want to move on. Yeah. I'll talk about who wanted to move on, I think, after the plot description, too, because I want to get into that. But so this week we're talking about the 2022 film, she said, directed by Maria Schrader, written by Rebecca Lenkowitz, based on the book, she said, by Jody Cantor and Megan Tui, starring Carrie Mulligan, Zoe Kazan, Patricia Clarkson, Andre Brower, Jennifer Ely, Samantha Morton, Frank Wood, Tom. Pelfrey, Adam Shapiro, Lola Pettacru, who I totally forgotten was in this, playing the young version of Jennifer Ely, Lilley, Lillopetagru, who is currently on Furious, FX's Furious. Molly Windsor, Peter Friedman, Zach Grinier, special appearance by Ashley Judd.

That's my vanity credit, not the movies. And introducing the voices of James Austin Johnson and Gwinneth Paltrow, among others, premiered on October 13th, 2022 at the New York Film Festival, and then went into wide release on November 18th, 2020 from Universal. It opened in sixth place with a mere $2.2 million. It opened on like 2,000 screens to $2.2 million.

Number one, that weekend, was the second weekend of Black Panther, Wakanda Forever. The menu premiered that weekend to $9 million in second place, so a distant, distant, distant, second place. Third place was the chosen season three episode one and two, which was a fathom events thing for a television show that I am unfamiliar with, that pulled in almost as much as the menu, pulled in $8.7 million. And that sort of was kind of, again, 2022, we're still crawling back.

Fathom events, bracket, derogatory. Well, speaking of bracket derogatory, fourth place was the fifth weekend of Black Adam, and then followed by the fifth weekend of Ticket to Paradise, a movie I would have bet you cash money never had a theatrical release. Tickets to Paradise is so streaming coded. It's so direct to Amazon coded. Also, a movie like Ticket to Paradise struggling to make money is also an indicator of anything for adults did not do well at this time. No. Well, I also think just in general, I don't think George Clooney and Julia Roberts are box office draws anymore.

Julia Roberts, I think still could be. I do think the star has faded on George Clooney. When was the last time she opened a movie, though? Well. Yeah. It's been a minute. seventh place right behind she said was the seventh weekend of Lyle Lyle Crockadale Written and directed by Katie Rich our friend Eighth place It's her directorial debut It was her directorial debut

It had good legs on it as old crocodiles do It has four little stumpy legs One point nine million dollars in its seventh weekend And then eighth place was smile The modest horror hit smile Which was again your eighth place place movie at the box office is barely crossing a million dollars. Like, we were still clawing our way back from COVID at Amicron and all that sort of stuff. All right, Chris, anything you want to

mention before we pull into the 60-second plot description. Who, um, no, I didn't prepare this, though this could either be very short, or I could say very little, but take very long. I believe in you. I also will be endlessly forgiving of you. going over. So if you are ready, you can begin now. All right, it's 2017. Donald Trump is newly the president of the United States, despite reporting from, including Megan Dewey, on his sexual assault allegations. We are all going through it. It is a rough time. And Jody Cantor at the New York Times gets a tip that Rose McGowan has been raped by, or not has been, but like long in the past, was raped by Harvey Weinstein.

And she starts investigating, realizing that there is a, you know, whisper, like, open secret around sexual assault and Harvey Weinstein in particular, including famous actresses like Ashley Judd and Gwyneth Paltrow. And there's just a history of abuse with the Weinstein. She investigates. There have been people trying to report this before. She is struggling to get women on the record. So she has Megan Tui join forces with her. and they are going and meeting with several different women who have history of abuse from Harvey Weinstein,

including Laura Madden, who is played by Jennifer Ely. She also has been recently given a cancer diagnosis. As they are struggling to go to print after all of this and receiving intimidation from Weinstein, who has gotten a tip that they are asking around about his history, they receive word from Ashley Judd and Laura Madden that they are willing to go on the record, which somewhat allows the story to actually be published within a legal way so that they... There's all this about legalese of what you can and can't say to in order to get the story out there.

And then the story publishes and it changes the world. 48 seconds over. Yeah. A couple things I thought of, first of all, I'm kicking myself that I didn't start you off by posing the question. What are we talking about here? What exactly is it that we're looking at here? Shit, I knew I was getting it wrong. Different take in the movie than in the trailer, because that became a meme.

Yes. There's also elements about Tewy and Cantor's personal lives, including Tewy going through postpartum depression. there's mutual support for them, not just as co-workers and co-reporters, but just as two women in the industry, two parents, you know, who are working parents. I will say, speaking from within a social media environment that is not particularly thrilled with the New York Times over the course of the last... New York Times has some problems. But the New York Times comes across very well in this. At the very least, Patricia Clarkson's character, Rebecca Corbett, come across incredibly well. I think...

It does feel a little authorized biography in terms of the culture and ideas behind the New York Times. Yes. That's also stuff for a different movie. Yes, exactly. And we may end up getting that movie at some point. I think there is good stuff interpersonally. too, between the Megan and Jody characters

in terms of Jody is a younger reporter less experienced, a little more unsure of herself and Megan I really like Mulligan's characterization of

Megan Tui in this movie because you're right I think they're both good in this movie. I think they are. I think they're both very good in this movie. I prefer Zoe Kazan's performance between the two. Listen, I don't need to compare women to each other. Well, sure. But if we're talking about it from like an awards perspective,

Carrie Mulligan also did the supporting actress bid for this movie. They're both leads. They're both leads. But I, Megan Toey in this movie, while also, yes, going through the postpartum depression, she is so unafraid. of these people, she's the one who's always like, yeah, we should, you know, I'll talk to Harvey Weinstein, I'll talk to whoever. Like, she, you know. Well, we see in the movie the effects of her reporting on Donald Trump and, you know, receiving death threats.

And that's also one of the interesting relationship things we get to see on screen between, you know, these two women that Jody Cantor is like, how do you actually get these women to talk about these horrible things? that have happened to them to a stranger, to a reporter. How do you get them to go on the record even? Well, watching Megan on the phone with some of these people, and not just like, we mostly, when we're talking about the victims, it's mostly Jody talking to these people. We see Megan doing the sort of shoe leather stuff. She's talking to the various agencies.

She's talking to, you know, lawyers. she's getting the, you know, the nitty-gritty stuff. But the way in which she will talk to somebody at an agency, and they'll be like, well, it's policy, we can't give you that information. And she'll just be like, well, sure, it's policy, but don't you think this is like, you know, so, and like watching her sort of like forge these back channel relationships. Like, I, in my line of work do not do a ton of. of reporting. I do a little bit of it, though. I will, you know, I will, you know, get quotes

from folks and whatever. And watching somebody do it on a scale that is, A, so much more important, and B, at such a high level, is really impressive to me. And I really like that that is a part of the movie. And the scene where they go to the one house, I believe it's in the Hamptons, the woman who shuts the door in their face. And when they're waiting for her to come to the door, they're trying to figure out who should take the lead. And Megan goes, oh, you take the lead. You're less intimidating.

And Jody looks in and she goes, you don't think I'm intimidating? And it's funny. Like, it's one of the moments in the movie that I do think shows a little bit of sense of humor. Because, like, yeah, Megan is, like, so incredibly unflappable. and, you know, not necessarily intimidating, but, like, not intimidated. Like, she's definitely the less intimidatable person among the two of them. And it's fun to watch Carrie Mulligan play with that character.

She does do a voice, obviously. I mean, obviously, she's not doing it in her native accent, but she's also, like, there's a deep voice thing going on, too. Well, she's naturally dulcet-toned. Which I find very soothing and comforting. I do too. I'm not a, what you call it? A-S-M-R.

Why couldn't I think of A-S-M-R? I'm fucking, my brain is more. I do think ASMR would do wonders for you. Wonders of what way. You should do it. You should do it. It'll soothe you. Wait, what do I need to have fixed by ASMR?

As a generally tense person who has worked on my tension and anxiety, I think ASMR might help you. ASMR not for me. I don't like it. It makes me more, it creeps me out. I don't love it. Anyway, there's an ASMR quality to Carrie Mulligan's voice. Maggie Gyllenhaal has a similar thing, I think.

Anyway. Okay, so plot-wise, we've talked a little bit about this. the structure of the movie, the sort of, you know, building the case, putting it together, and ultimately, this is a movie that is taking place.

I mean, Spotlight had a little bit more distance, I think, from the events that it's dramatizing, right? This is one thing that I think about the timing of this movie, watching it now basically a decade on from

when the story dropped. When the story dropped. Yeah. I think, you know, being less enmeshed in this specific case in the culture, where it's like, it really felt like we were kind of still living it. I forget, he'd definitely been, he'd received his sentence because that's in the, you know, the post script on the movie. But, like, just, right? had like just received sentence on it's I mean there are multiple multiple convictions multiple trials across multiple states across multiple states a couple of them have been since overturned and retried

there have been a couple I believe mistrials but he has been convicted on to date to sexual assault convictions and I'm not I don't want to say because I'm not entirely sure what still remains to possibly be adjudicated or not, but two convictions have held up. And hopefully he's dead by the time this episode air. Well, this is the other thing is... We're recording this the week after it's like we're losing the good ones. We're losing the good ones.

We're losing the good ones. Dolly and... You got one right there. And by all told, it wouldn't take much to take. the guy. Like, this is the thing with so many of them is like a stiff breeze should be able to take down like three or four of the worst people in the world right now. And it's just like not happening. But yeah, every time they show footage of like Weinstein being taken to a courtroom or something like that, he does look like just like a pile of ashes that has been like molded into the

shade of the world. And he's done that to like drum up sympathy. as if we're not just like, well, then just fucking die. If that's, if that's the intention. No sympathy for the man, none whatsoever. It doesn't work because all it's done is make him look like an absolute grotesque, which he is. So, okay, so I think it's interesting that she said comes out in the same award season as Sarah Polly's Women Talking, which is nominated for Best Picture, wins the screenplay. Oscar for Sarah Polly. But by that...

Should also be said, she said did the full festival run, or women talking did the full festival run. And she said premiered in the Spotlight section of New York, which, as we said before, is not a full endorsement from Film Society at Lincoln Center.

I think that's the kind of, I, that... You're not wrong, but I think that's a little kind of inside baseball that I think doesn't make a difference. in terms of how a movie is received. I don't think people... I think it sets a certain expectation for a movie. I'm going to be curious to see what the anticipation is around the Tom McCarthy, which is doing the same thing, though it sounds like that's because the movie would not

be done for any other festival. Yeah. And that was not the case for She Said. I do think it's very weird that they would not take She Said to tell your ride. I could maybe understand hesitation that. and hesitation that, like, would that seem gauche? How do you release this movie into the world in a way that doesn't feel inappropriate? Well, but also, I think it goes to my general sense of why this movie, I think, had a ceiling on how

embraced it was going to be, which is a movie like Spotlight or a movie like women talking, two movies that I think you can compare to She Said on two very different levels. But I think it's, I think it's striking that there are movies that are called She Said and are called Women Talking. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's, you know. In the same right. Sure, sure, sure.

I think one of the things that allows, you know, not to compare, you know, two movies about women together in any particular, like, lesser minus type of way. But women talking is a. fundamentally emotional movie from beginning to end. I think she said builds in its emotion. Yeah. But it's pretty remote

in the first half hour, 45 minutes, when also a lot of those worst scenes of the movie are happening. But she said is also a movie about sexual assault and abuse within a religious community. Spotlight is about sexual assault and abuse within a religious institution.

She said, is about sexual assault and abuse from within the industry where compromising connections, whether you want, I'm not saying criminal connections, but like compromises have been made countless times by countless people in that industry. And I do feel like if only on a subconscious level, but I think it's not always subconscious, people just in general are, it's much easier to get people to ride to the cause of victims of the Catholic Church, victims of, you know, religious cults, what have you, than it is to get people to, you know, I think there were a lot of people who felt like they would be risking charges of

hypocrisy by coming out stronger against institutional sexual sexism, institutional sexual assault, Harvey Weinstein in general. How many people in that industry have worked with Harvey Weinstein? I don't think necessarily it's that they wanted a movie like she said to be silenced or to be shut up. I think if you asked anybody one-on-one, they would praise a movie like she said. but I think in general, there was a muted enthusiasm for cheering on a movie like she said, because I think when it comes down to it at the end of the day, Harvey Weinstein going to jail was for a lot of people, and a period at the end of the sentence, right?

He's in jail, he's done. And we can, you know, we don't have to talk about him again. And, you know, it's over. A rush to compartmentalize it as Harvey, as the boogeyman, as if there's not other people in the industry continuing to perpetrate the same thing. By watching him be punished, people can feel like they're done with something that is not over, you know. Well, and it's the difference between systemic versus individual causes to things like this. And this is why getting people on board with the idea of systemic, you know, rot or systemic, you know, villainy and something like this is always so hard. And I'm not exempting myself from this.

You know what I mean? Like, it is not always easy to, you know, be like, oh, this system in which we are all participants on some level or another has rot in it, you know what I mean? That has to be addressed. That has to be, you know, rooted out. And it's much easier to be like, this guy was the worst of the worst. Lock him up. Throw him away the key. We will all disavow, you know, to some degree or another.

But, like, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck aren't giving back their Oscars. You know what I mean? Like, nobody's giving back the money that they made off of Weinstein and Miramax movies that they made or whatever. So everybody has a degree of compromised, you know, a degree to which they will accept, you know, their own complicity in this system, right? And that's all well and good. but I think when given the choice between, am I going to sing the praises of a movie like Women Talking or sing the praises of a movie like she said,

which, again, two very different movies that succeed and don't succeed at their own level, and people are absolutely, you know, free to like one and not the other. But I think in general, when you are talking about enthusiasm, I think it's much easier for Hollywood to cheer on a movie like women talking than it is. A movie like she said forces them to look at their own complicity.

You know, not necessarily the perpetration of a crime, but looking another way. I mean, I don't, I'm not someone who believes that, you know, people have to apologize for working on a Miramax movie. I agree with you. I agree. I agree. I agree. One person's contribution, even at the highest level, like Harvey Weinstein, does not overshadow the contributions of countless. other artists.

But, yeah, I understand what you're saying in terms that people themselves have to sit with. That people themselves have to sit with the, you know, contributing to working with someone like this. A lot of people, like, wanted to take Meryl to task. And I think that's because she won an Oscar for a Weinstein movie. Well, and also, she's the most visible of actresses. But also, you have to look at the system that, you know, a preemptive. predator creates in who has access to certain people who might, you know, be able to implicate them. I think that it's very easy to create a system that, you know, keeps other powerful

people from knowing the worst behaviors that you've done. You saw this with, like, Scott, reports of Scott Rudin, that Scott Rudin would, like, put on the charm and be his best version of itself and as soon as Merrill Streep leaves the building he's throwing a phone at someone you know like... Well, but this is the thing, this is the deal with big personalities and that like big personalities

can be terrifying, they can be off putting, but they can also be magnetic or they can also be somebody who it's just easier to give them what they want, even if what they want is you know, the bigger office. You know what I mean?

Just like, what they want doesn't always have to be something horrible and criminal and villainous. What they want, you know, but this is how personalities like this grow to be personalities like this is it's just easier to just acquiesce and move on with your life because like, you know, first of all, it gets me out of the room quicker. Second of all, I'm, you know, my career isn't going to be adversely affected or whatever. And so it starts probably with smaller things, and then it becomes larger things. It's easier to just make the change that Harvey wants you to make in the script rather than, you know... At that point, you're already in survival mode having to work with a person like that. Yeah. And so this is the deal.

And by that same token, those big personalities, when they, you know, do on the rare occasion compliment you or praise you or give you a fucking break or, you know, help you succeed. It's much, much more easier, more easier. It's much, much easier to say that, like, well, thank God, I didn't, you know, burn that bridge. Thank God, you know, I put up with all that other bullshit that this person, because, like, this is, you know, this is the good side, quote unquote, of a person, a big person. A big person. like this is that they are also incredibly dynamic and they are also incredibly, you know, successful. These people sort of like bulldoze their way through, you know, industries and whatever. It's the same thing with Donald Trump, that someone who is very on the record of being a monster for a long period of time, it makes it easier for them to continue to be one.

Yeah. As, you know, much of a paradox as it sounds like, I think that's a truth about the world we live in. Well, I mean, or have lived in. Far be it from me to give some fool like Bill Maher any kind of credit, but this is the first thing that came to mind. Remember when he went to the White House or I don't even think he interviewed Trump, but he like went to the White House and he made this big huge deal about just like, yeah, I went to the White House and he's, you know what? Donald Trump, he's not this monster. He's just like, you know, he was actually very personable. And it's like, well, for one thing.

Fuck you. Fuck you. But it's also the fact that like. Like, that, I imagine, is not a rare phenomenon. That if Donald Trump, who you have seen be gross and awful and call people, you know, pigs and disgusting and all that, if that person is charming to you in a one-on-one situation, like, that's how it works. That's how they work. That is how, you know, and I imagine that there is, you have to actually actively resist that. You know what I mean? Because the natural instinct is to be like, oh, like this person, you know, isn't being aggressive to me.

This person is being charming to me. I think, you know, the Zoron stuff when Zoran, you know, went to the White House and whatever. And there were people being like, oh, my God, I can't believe, like one day in office and he's already, you know, cozying up to Trump. And it's like, no, he's working Trump. Like, there's a difference there. There's a difference between, you know, but you have to actively work at that because it is the inclination is going to be to be like, oh, Harvey Weinstein loves my movie, loves this, you know, wants to work with me, wants to win me an Oscar. You know what I mean? Like, this is great. He's so, he hates everything.

He's so mean about everything. He's not being mean about me. Like, this is, you know, this is great. Well, and one thing I think that the movie does really well, to bring it back to the movie a little bit, is the idea that it has to present, much like in reporting the story would have had to have been done, explain to the audience the specific system, the specific apparatus in which Harvey Weinstein was working in. because like all of these systems where sexual abuse happen are the same but different. And there are these nuances in the way that the industry works, that the audience might not. We're having this conversation from two like nerds who like make their life out of paying attention to things like the industry. That, you know, not everyone in the audience is going to think about or even be aware of certain nuances that have, I don't.

let certain behaviors, you know, propagate or, you know, certain nuances that a person who is in one of those awful situations, how they would need to navigate to get out of the situation to be safe, you know, or the things that would continue to silence people. Yeah. A creature like Harvey Weinstein is so objectionable. And once, when the stories come out, the, you know, the bathrobe stuff and the, you know, Laura Madden's story, it was her story, right? About she was in the shower and she could still hear him, like, jerking off in the hotel and whatever, like, and like all of this stuff,

the recording, they actually play the recording for the incident with Ambra Batelana Gutierrez, the Italian model, who was, I believe, the person, who went to the New York authorities, right? Who actually, like, reported the incident. So that kind of, when you actually hear it in action, when you actually hear the specifics of it, it is so gross that it almost makes it easier to be like, oh, this guy's a, you know,

lock him up and throw away the key or whatever. and you maybe are, you bypass the more insidious things like, I mean, one of the more, it's not shocking, because it's not surprising, but one of the more galling things that's talked about in the movie is how Miramax would trade exclusives with some of their talent in order to get reporters to kill a story, which, you know, is. It's also mentioned in the movie that, you know, Ronan Farrow was working on a report for NBC, which was, which was, you know, We know now NBC killed the report. So someone at the higher levels there. He's working with the New Yorker. But yes, NBC had killed whatever. No, he was working with NBC.

He later publishes through the New Yorker. Yes. But yeah, it's just, I mean, whatever. It's a larger issue that we're going to be able to deal with in the purview of this podcast. But it's... The movie captures the investigation. very well. And I think that's why the movie

I think gets better as it goes because you do get as an audience member a really necessary emotional connection to the material. Yeah. That I think, you know, it takes a minute for the movie to find it.

Though I think you are emotionally connected to the two reporters because you do see those elements of their life, which I think all told, the it's not that there was you know

tension about this but you know you're talking about two reporters they don't want to be the story but to my understanding you know there was some hesitation about how much to include but I think it makes it the little bit that we get makes it a better movie and I wish there was more

about that because I think you know when you have people sending you death threats when you're going through something like postpartum depression and then it's your job to go and speak to people about and report on sexual assault. That has to be a lot, you know, in a way that I find very compelling. How does that person go through that? How do you talk to your children about the horrible things that you have to report on? I think that's fascinating. Even in a way

that like spotlight, we only get a limited window into those characters' real lives that, you know, and the little bit that you do get does spark in an interesting way. Yeah, I think that's true. I think there is I think

there is probably a sense that you don't want to sort of overly sentimentalize the characters or the story or anything like that. You want to keep a movie like this on the path of the investigation, right?

That diverting it too much into personal stories, maybe leans on buttons that you would rather not lean on. You know what I mean? Sure. And it's there's, the movie is definitely trying to strike a balance of it. I do think how do you perform this job and also be a person? is an interesting question that the movie gestures towards. I want to talk about Zoe Kazan a little bit and sort of this stretch of her career because I think

2017 she's in The Big Sick, which is an Oscar nominee for screenplay, and in general, that movie has a presence in that, you know, Oscar season, not for her specifically, but I think that movie is, in general, a pretty good career boon for her. 2018, she's in the Ballad of Buster Scrugg. She's also a co-writer on Wildlife, which

was directed by Paul Dano, her long time. We love Wildlife. Are they married, or are they just longtime partners? I believe they're married. Whichever it is, they are great, and we love them. Wildlife, of course, starring Carrie

Mulligan. And then, in 2019, she's in a film called The Kindness of Strangers, directed by Lona Shurfig, who directed an education, which got Carrie Mulligan, her first Oscar nomination. So clearly, these two women

were in each other's orbit for... They were also in that production of the Siegel on Broadway. Oh, I didn't realize that. See? You know stuff. You have institutional Broadway knowledge that I depend on. That is our

Megan and Jody partnership right there. Carrie at this point is between Oscar nominations. She had just recently been nominated for Promising Young Woman. She is about to be nominated the next year for Maestro. And this year, how close do we think she came to a supporting actress nomination because she's nominated at both the Golden Globes and Bafta for supporting actress. I really had... I thought that it was just Bafta,

but when I saw the Golden Globe one, I'd kind of blocked that out. I mean, at a certain point in the race, it seemed like a supporting actress nomination was getable. There was more fluidity. This is the year that Jamie Lee Curtis wins

for everything everywhere all at once. I think if you want to talk about who was kind of locked in for nominations, Carrie Condon for Angella Bassett for Banshees of Insharon and Angela Bassett for Black Panther Wakanda Forever. So like those three

were locked in and then you had this sort of amalgam of Hong Chow for the Whale and Stephanie Shoe for everything everywhere, both get the Oscar nominations. But you had Dali de Leon for Triangle of Sadness. You had you had Carrie Mulligan.

You had nominally the women of women talking who were never really I don't know if any of them ever actually got any of these nominations but Claire Foy Jesse Buckley AARP movies for grownups winner

Judith Ivy Judith Ivy well M4G's gave their award to Judith Ivy So there was that And Rooney Mara ran in lead Rooney Mara ran in lead And then Gabriel Union was in the conversation for the inspection. She gets so great. A nomination at the M4Gs but doesn't really get anything beyond that.

You had, there was, you know, talk of perhaps, well, at the very beginning of the season, there was talk of Michelle Williams being and supporting for the Fablemen's, but ultimately. Oh, TAR, you had the two. Nina Haas. Nina Hoss also never. really got arrested in the race, I thought, too. Maybe got a Critics' Choice nomination. So it was definitely, it was a year that on paper had a ton of contenders. But even in practice, I think, I know there were a lot of people who were picking Dolly Dillian to get that nomination

up until, because I think it just wasn't, Hong Chow was not a certainty, and Stephanie Shue was not a certainty. And so it was kind of an up in the air thing for a while. And I think I could very easily see Carrie Mulligan having finished sixth or seventh in that. Certainly given the BAFTA nomination, too. The only thing is that it's just not a supporting performance. It sure isn't. And I do think at the end of the day, there are certainly some voters that do consider placements and then not vote for people because of that.

Yeah. It's all this kind of downhill effect from Michelle Williams running in lead when people expected her to run and supporting. I think people were already kind of starting to engrave her name on the trophy for Best Supporting Actress that year. And I do think it would have been interesting to watch her as a supporting contender up against Jamie Lee Curtis and Angela Bassett. Because ultimately, I don't know how well liked that Fablman's performance is. in general. And the star kind of kept fading on the Fablewomen's all season.

I think Michelle Williams would have lost in that supporting lineup. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. Is this true that Zoe Kazan does not have a film credit since she said? Well, here's the thing. She's been working on

the East of Eden adaptation for a while. Got it. I am so lit for this East of Eden. in miniseries in a way that I'm never excited for a Netflix television thing ever. It's going to be awesome. I've got the screeners and I keep waiting for like the right time

to delve into them. This afternoon. So you can tell me how good it is. Okay. You do get the sense that that is something she's maybe leaning more towards these days. But yeah, the cast, God, that East of Eden cast. I've already heard great things about Florence.

Pew, but Mike Feist, Christopher Abbott, Karen Hines, Martha Plimpton, Tracy Letts, I mean, come on, man, come on. It's going to rule. It's going to be good. She said is a screenplay nominee, several places. Screenplay nominees at WGA are always an interesting concept because you never know what is eligible and what is not. but women talking, which is ultimately the Oscar winner,

gets the award at WGA and gets the award at Critics Choice. She said is nominated alongside Black Panther Wakanda Forever, Glass Onion and Top Gun Maverick. Glass Onion and Top Gun Maverick are both adapted screenplay this year. The Oscar nominees... It's kind of all over the place is the thing. That's one of the things that gets it into some places, but not. others is you can tell that there's not a consensus. And you also have All Quiet on the Western Front increasing its, you know,

favor over the course of the season. All Quiet on the Western Front and Top Gun Maverick are screenplay nominees that year really tells you... Oh boy. Just don't get me in trouble again for talking smack about Top Gun Maverick. Why? Why? You shouldn't get in trouble. It's insane. People get mad at me whenever I talk shit about that movie. without fail. People are like, what's wrong with you?

Yeah, what's wrong with me for not liking a, you know, whatever. I'm not getting in trouble again. I'm not getting in trouble again. Kazu Ishiguro gets a nomination for Living, which I think is great, and I'm very glad about that, and I'm glad that Ryan Johnson got nominated for Glass Onion. But yes, this 2022, okay, so here's the thing I want to talk about

about the 2022 Oscar nominees for Best Picture, because you look at the AFI top 10. and I think it's just a better lineup, even considering that it has both Avatar the Way of Water and Top Gun Maverick, which are two movies in which I didn't predict it for. You do not like The Way of Water, it's fine. But like, so Elvis, everything everywhere, the fablemen's, Tar, and women talking are our AFI nominees that are also Oscar nominees.

But they have, she said, they have nope, they have the woman king. and that is instead of all quiet on the Western Front what are the other two that it's Of the Oscar top ten Yeah They did not nominate banshees

Of Inish Aaron Okay well that's your tradeoff And Triangle of Sadness I will say for Triangle of Sadness I'm not like That's a capital G great movie I like triangle It's a movie that I've revisited

Because it is a capital F-5 funny movie. I like that movie a lot. I think if you had not replaced banshees and Triangle of Sadness and instead you had replaced Top Gun Maverick and for me, Avatar the Way of Water, I would have really, really liked this lineup even more. But like, I'm glad somebody was nominating Nope. I'm glad somebody was nominating the Woman King. So that to me, 2020 is a hard year to look back on because everything everywhere all at once won so much at the top of the card that like it's hard to remember what else was sort of churning around at the bottom you remember everything everywhere you remember weirdly the whale because brendan fraser wins best actor but

it's hard i think you remember tar too it takes me a second to you are you are cooler on tar than but that's that's not why it's hard for me to remember that tar is this year it I remember Tar. Tar being this year is harder for me to remember because I just don't think of it in relation to any of these other things, in part because... Tar is also interesting in conversation with this movie, where it takes a more heady approach to systemic abuse and, like, the mind of these, you know, narcissistic abusers. Yes. And Tar is also a movie that does incorporate humor. in a way that makes the subject, you know, easier to sit with.

Well, and Tar also gives audiences the out, which is, you know, aren't the people calling for her cancellation also annoying. You know what I mean? Like, it gives you that end of it, too, with Tar. I think that that movie is doing that a lot less than you think it is. I think because it's also, it's so purely from her perspective that you have to filter everything that you watch, that it's from. the mind of a monster.

Sure. But I also think it's... I mean, like, Naomi Merlant is not annoying in tar. Really? No. Okay. All right. I think that movie, I don't think you're giving that movie enough credit for being

slyly funny on the idea that the... the structures around Lidiatar are also deeply annoying. Well, I mean, the music industry that she listens. Everyone's fucking annoying in that. But not about that. Listen, if you want to say that all the Lidiatar was right, t-shirts are wrong, then, you know, that's up to you. You can deal with that yourself. That's with a wink.

You know, that's with a wink. You know what also is a great movie about annoying people? Avatar the Way of Water. Well, all the Avatar movies are about annoying people, yeah. But they're in the audience, to-ching. Anyway, what else do we want to talk about? You're throwing me with this tar thing. You're trying to paint me into a corner with tar.

Talked about the Writers Guild. It's always weird for Riders Guild nominations. Let's talk about the M4Gs. Yeah, okay, the M4Gs were on point this year, I got to say. So this movie, she said wins. wins best ensemble, which I think is really good because, yes, this movie has so many heavy hitters in small roles. And I, again, this is what the casting, you know, the Oscars folks were talking about when they instituted the casting award, which is, you know, finding people to nail the exact, you know, right small role. Jennifer Ely and Samantha Morton, we talked about, but like, fucking Zach Grenier is great.

in his small little scene. I think Peter Friedman hit such a good note of like, this is, again, you can see how somebody who is at the heart of this awful system can convince themselves that they're like one of the good ones. You know what I mean? That they're sort of holding the line for something

that they are absolutely not holding the line for. I mentioned Lola Petacru, who plays the young Jennifer Ely, who is currently Unfurious and is, terrifying on that show in a good way. Andre Brower, so good. Andre Brower and Patricia Clarkson, you wish you could work for two people

who are as upstanding and competent and good and fearless as Patricia Clarkson and Andre Bauer. Every movie, there needs to be one movie in the Oscar race every year where you do have incredible and beloved actress does office work in the vein of Isabella Rossellini making copies in Conclave. You have Patricia Clarkson doing copy edits in this movie. There's a scene...

There's a scene in which somebody at the New York Times prints up a tweet of Lisa Bloom's to show to Megan Toey. And I'm like, I respect it. That's one of those things... Nothing more Gen X-coded than printing a tweet. Listen, this is the thing, though, if I had a printer right now, the frivolous things I would end up printing, just because I have the ability to do so, you'd be shocked and amazed. I would absolutely abuse the privilege of having a printer. Gen X loves a printer. You think you're not insulting me, but you know what? You're absolutely right.

I'm not insulting you because I am allowing you to believe you are GenX. Fuck off. Fuck off. I'm mailing you a carpet bomb. That you printed. That you 3D printed. I'm mailing you a threatening note that I'm going to print up on my printer that I love because I am Gen X and fuck you. That the cyan color is running out. She said gets the ensemble prize. I think that's a good prize.

I do too. I do too. And it's a good set of nominees at the M4Gs because your other nominees are Glass Onion. Nope, the Woman King and Women Talking. Not a wrong footstep on those nominations. Very good. These are all good ensembles. but because it's M4Gs, I do think we need to consider ensemble under their rules for nominees.

So it's exclusively the ensemble members who are 50 and older. So it's only for Nope, it's only Michael Wincott and Keith David. Yes. I mean, not wrong. And the horses. Not wrong. Yeah. But yes, everybody else there is too young.

Woman King, too. I guess it's just Viola Davis. It's got to be someone else, too. Yeah. Who is it in Glass Onion? I guess, well, Daniel Craig's old enough to be... Probably Dave Batista. Yeah.

You can never tell with big, muscle-y dudes like that. Those people could be anywhere from 30 to 60, and, you know, it's tough to tell. All right, I'm going to look it up, and you're going to give me a guess. How old do you think Dave Batista is? Okay. Tell me when. All right. How old? I'm going to say today?

Yeah. 54. You're very close. He's 57. 57 years old. And he's going to be 58 in January. We are closer. So he would have been over 50 in the time of Glass Onion. He's going to turn 60 before the second Trump administration is over.

Let's throw him a party. That's fucking sick, man. That's crazy. Okay, so of the Glass Onion cast members, so in 2022, he would have been 53-ish. So he would have been there. Edward Norton, also 57, Daniel Craig, 58. Man, so all of those Gen Xers, definitely. I'll had a party together.

Catherine Hahn, 53, Kate Hudson, 47. What's the cutoff? Is it 50? I think it's 50. Okay, so your Glass Onion nominees are Daniel Craig, Edward Norton, Dave Batiste, to Catherine Hahn. The Clarkson and Brower nominations. I'm not against them.

Oh, getting individual nominations for the M4Gs and supporting actor and supporting actors. I do think there are better performances over theirs that could be recognized. Though, like, are the M4Gs going to be nominating Zach Grenier? Yeah, probably not. But, I mean, Jennifer Ely is right there. We know I'm an Ely head. But, like, she's the performance of the movie.

I agree. To me. If you're going to be perceptive enough. The leads are great. Yeah. If you're going to be perceptive enough of an organization to give the win to Judith Ivey. for women talking, then I think you can be perceptive enough to give

a nomination to Jennifer Ely. Again, I think Patricia Clarkson is fantastic. But it's tough for me to sometimes understand how to recognize quiet competence in movies. Because I do think it is harder than it looks because it's so much about just sort of projecting gravitous

without having to indicate it through dialogue and stuff like that. And she does it, and Brower, fucking for sure does it. Brower and all those phone calls is so good. Best actress at MFRIG?

Yeah. Hit me. It's like all people we love. Viola? Michelle Yo wins for everything everywhere. Leslie Manville for Mrs. Harris goes to Paris. Cape Lanchip

Patar. Viola Davis for the woman king and Emma Thompson for good luck to you Leo Grand. And in a great show of misreading the text, good luck to you Leo Grand wins best grown-up love story. Honestly,

work. You know? The love of oneself, self-love? Whatever works. Whatever works. That is an award for what does Diane Keaton say when she's accepting her Golden Globe for something's got to give, but like, love at any age

But it's not a love story It's love for yourself at any age We celebrate that We do celebrate that Listen, nothing wrong with that What are our notes on the movie? What else do we have? Well, I just wrote down

Lisa Bloom, Jesus Christ Lisa Bloom, a monster And also Marcelline Hugo In this movie Yeah, Marcelline Hugo And the wig they give her It is a wig.

It is quite a wig. Marcelline Hugo cast as an evil person. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is jarring. She can handle it. I did write down on my notes. Marcelline Hugo. I almost said Hugh got. Marcelline Hugo, double exclamation point.

Yep, yep, yep. We talked about how the New York Times gets a favorable edit in this. This movie does make a point of saying, that Martin Scorsese hated Harvey Weinstein, and I'm like, somebody wanted to, like, do Harvey, do Martin a solid there. It's just like, it's good publicity for Marty. Everybody hated Marty. Or, no, everyone hated Harvey.

Well, not enough people, but yeah. I also want to give a shout out to the copy of Down and Dirty Pictures on Megan Toohey's desk. It's a good bit. As was the Strand tote bag that was on, I believe it was Megan's desk. I wrote down a line like this. There are a handful of lines like this where one of the two of them says, this is bigger than Weinstein.

This is about the system protecting abusers. Samantha Morton says that. Samantha Morton says that. Okay. Yeah. I just feel like lines like that are just not going to do you favors with, let's say, particularly critics. It's just two...

It's on the nose. It's on the nose. I think that's on the nose. But maybe there's other stuff that's more on the nose. But also, like, Samantha Morton's performance is kind of when this movie locks in and really invests you. And, like, that's kind of the line to do it. So I guess it works for me in a way that normally that type of thing doesn't work for it. Shout out to to Molly Windsor, who plays the younger version of Samantha Morton's character.

who I also think is very good. But yeah, that's about what I have. Not too bad. I do think that this movie is broadly successful at what it's doing. And I think some of the more didactic stuff or the more expository stuff earlier in the movie

is more forgivable now because I think we've just had more distance from, you know, Harvey Weinstein dominating the news. My only sort of sadness is that you look at this movie now four years on, and you can already get the sense that, like, it's a period piece a little bit. It's a movie from an era that people are already, even if just subconsciously, distancing from, moving on from, this whole idea that, like, and I say it as many as many as, often as anybody does, about like, you know, woke one, you know, is over in that kind of thing. And I think that was always going to be the danger of encapsulating that moment in time with

a hashtag like Me Too, which was so successful and was, you know, was native to the social media and online moment that it was in. But as with everything these days, because social media is so inherent to any kind of news or social movement, it makes it very easy to brush it aside as a fad or as a, you know, something that is in the past, something that can be moved on from. And when people talk about the excesses of Me Too, and I'm using extreme scare quotes when I say that, it's the exact same reason why Republicans insisted on using the term woke as a catch-all for any- Long after people stopped saying, well, like, any time I hear someone like Republicans say it, I'm like, you realize that, like, y'all adopted that after- Absolutely. But everyone stopped using it. But it worked. It was very successful for them in that way.

Yeah. Because that was a way of, you know, labeling anything that made people feel a certain way. And you tie it to your opponents. And it was, I don't know, this is me sort of drifting from the point. But I do hope that she said does not continue to sort of feel like a period piece. that you can, I don't know. It's... Stark out there, people.

Yeah, and I don't want to be... We're in a place of questioning how much has actually changed, and I don't think we're feeling very good about it, but the fact that someone like Harvey Weinstein went down and can be provided as an example of how we can take people like him down, should not be overlooked. Well, it's also a thing where change isn't going to have... going to ever be that much of a top-down kind of a thing. You can take somebody like Harvey Weinstein down, but there are very few other people of that stature and of that level that can be toppled in order. So what you have to do is it has to be changed from within. It has to be people in the moment resisting, you know, calling people, you know, making people accountable for things before it, before,

for monsters like Harvey Weinstein are created and just, you know, having more of a sense of responsibility and a sense of, I mean, simple propriety, really? You know what I mean? This idea that things that we just sort of like looked away, looked the other way for and, and allowed for as cost of doing business is, is, sucks. You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be so high-minded.

It's just like, that shit sucks. That shit is, should not be happening, is not acceptable. And, and maybe that's something that can just sort of have filtered into people's consciousness and people's, you know, way in which they operate.

But maybe that's overly optimistic. One note we didn't really talk about, other than alluding to the what exactly is it we're looking at here, namification of the trailer. Yeah. People really did not like that trailer. That's the other thing I think that did not do favors for she said is people were very negative. You forgot the posters. Oh.

The teaser posters that were just like the outline of a shape. Oh, I forgot about those. Trying to do this like visual suggestion of not being on the record. And it's a little graphic design is my passion. I don't think it sets the movie up. Hold on. I'm looking this up now. To be...

Oh, I see what you mean. The silhouettes. Go look up those posters. They, people were, like, this was put out by a major studio. And I will say, when I saw that in a movie theater, not like scrolling through on my phone, but when you see it in a movie theater, it looked pretty bad. It looked pretty bad. Yeah. You're not wrong.

Okay. In general, though, she said a movie I like and a movie I liked on second viewing. Its flaws are there, but they're more forgivable on a second viewing, I will say. I think that's right. All right. Do you want to let our listeners know how we do with the IMDB game? Every week, we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for.

If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue, and if that's not enough, it'll just become a free-for-all-hince. Yes, that is the IMDB game. Chris, would you like to give or guess first? I'll give first. Why not? All right. I went into the filmography of Rebecca Lenkowitz, who wrote, the forgotten

The Sad Oscar Buzz title 2018's Colette starred Kira Knightley Okay Kira Knightley Pride and Prejudice Correct

Atonement Correct imitation game Correct Okay Okay here we go Doing very well Better than I maybe anticipated you doing

For Kira Knightley. So we've got some options here. Anna Karenina, she plays the title character. It is an Oscar-winning movie. And we know that if she's on it for Atonement, maybe they just really like the Joe Wright stuff. Bend it like Beckham. Very popular movie.

Very popular movie. Love Actually, a very popular movie that like, if you asked a regular person to name five people from Love Actually, she would almost certainly be in that top five for most people. And then there is... Even though I think she says ten words in that movie. Right, but people remember her face from that movie. And then there's the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie.

It would be really funny if it turned out to be like Star Wars episode on The Phantom Menace where she plays the stand-in for Natalie Portman. I'm going to say, Pirates of the Caribbean, Curse the Black Pearl. Correct. Yes. got a perfect score. Wonderful. Oh, that's been a minute since I've had a perfect score.

It's been a minute since someone got a perfect score. Excellent. It's also been a Murphit, I guess. Because that's how my brain works when I try to form a sentence. All right. Excellent. Oh, that makes me feel happy. Okay.

For you. Good job. Very proud of you. Thank you. For you, I went into the cast of the movie Spotlight, because we talked about this a good bit. Several people in that cast we have done recently. This person we haven't done.

in over five years. I really like him in Spotlight, too, in a small role, but a crucial one. Mr. Stanley Tucci. The Tuch. The Tuch is loose. Yes. Devil Wars Prada. No. Wow. Okay.

And I was just like, well, that's probably got not him on his known for now. Guess not. The Lovely Bones, his awesome. Oscar nomination. Yes. Unfortunately. Unfortunately. Devil Horse Brought a nod on is known for, but the lovely bones is.

Julia, Julia? No, and he should. Okay. All right. So your years are... Same year as lovely bones. Yeah. 1996, 2011, and 2015.

2015. Is Spotlight? 2015 is Spotlight. Is 96 Big Knight? Yes. Okay. Which he is credited here as an actor, even though he is a co-director for the movie, but the credit on IMDB

is for the character. 2011. Interesting. So after his Oscar nominate... Is it... Is it the Hunger Games? It is not the Hunger Games. Is it catching fire? No. That would have been a few years later.

I think First Hunger Games is 2012. Or 2013. Something like that. Interesting. Okay, so between Spotlight and his Oscar nomination, what was he even? Is it a Transformers? He's in a Transformers. It's not a Transformers, but it's so funny that you keep mentioning franchises.

And I'm realizing that, like... Because it's not a franchise movie. No, it is a franchise movie. But, like, I'm just like, oh, he was in a lot of different franchises. He sure was. Okay. It's not... I don't think he's in the...

MCU. Is it the NCU? It's the MCU. It's the MCU. Okay, well, it was, what were they doing in 2011? Is this like Iron Man 2? Nope.

Iron Man 2, I believe, is 2010. Okay. Is this like Ragnarok? No, Ragnarok doesn't come for... Or not Ragnarok, the Dark World. No. I don't think I've ever saw. For the Dark World, I think, is 2013.

Wow. Yeah. So I'm just in this, like, weird no-man's land of what? Is it a sequel? No. Okay. In as much as all of the MCU movies are sequels to Iron Man, yes, but it is not a sequel in its... Right.

It is the... Is it an origin story? Yes. Okay. Who would have been getting their origin story in 2011? It's not the Incredible Hulk. It's not... not, it's not the like stage where you're getting Black Panther and Captain Marvel.

So it's got to be, I mean, were Thor and the First Avenger that year? Those came. No, those were 2010 because that's the same summer as Bridesmaids. No, maybe that's 2011. Is it the first adventure? Captain America, the First Avenger. Yes. Okay. That's correct.

Who does he even play in that? He's the doctor who turns him into the big bulky man. Yeah, I bet fewer people know that than no, Stanley Tucci is in the Devil Warriors Prada. Like, what are we doing here? What exactly are we talking about here? What's the line? What is that the line? What exactly is it that we're looking at here?

What exactly is it that we're looking at here? I love her voice. I love her voice. You ever seen that bit? The Tignitaro bit where she keeps going up to Taylor Dane. I love your voice. My speaking voice? All right.

Any who good episode, Chris? Great episode. That is our, that's our episode. And she said, if you want more of This Head Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz.com. You should also check out our Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz. Chris, where can the listeners find more of you? A letterbox and blue sky at Krisfy file. That's F-E-I-L.

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