This Had Oscar Buzz - 407 – Destroyer

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

In 2018, we were rooting for the comeback of director Karyn Kusama, emerging with the promising crime thriller Destroyer. Centering on Nicole Kidman playing against type as a grizzled investigator haunted by a previous undercover case gone wrong, the film applies a serpentine structure to its breed of hard boiled LA noir to mixed results. After receiving a mixed reaction on the festival circuit but praise for Kidman’s performance, the film was one of several 2018 Annapurna Pictures films that struggled to gain momentum. This episode, we talk about the strength of Kidman’s performance and the unfortunate fate that met some of Kusama’s films. We also talk about the film’s baffling ending, Sebastian Stan as Kidman’s hot love interest, and Kidman going ham on Bradley Whitford and Tatiana Maslany. Topics also include “deglam” Oscar campaigns, The Invitation, and Kidman’s Golden Globe nomination.

The house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Maryland. I'm from Canada water. Dick poop. And wise. People are dead. It's my fault.

I'm hungry, scared. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast, letting you know that the wine might taste a little funny, but don't worry about it. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some of reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host to Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my sandblasted old cop,

Chris File, hello Chris. Her face looks so intense in this movie. Listen, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. I mean, truly sandblasted skin. I was sitting here spinning trying to get the opening joke and what it was, because

it's been so long since we've recorded a regular episode, I think like a month and a half. Yes. And I was like, oh, yes, it's arsenic and old lace. Yes. So that was our very early kickoff to spooky season. It's not that we're doing all spooky season this month, but this movie kind of counts because it is like the movie Halloween costume of not, I mean, Aunt Gladys is, but like, it feels

so dress up. I hate gay Halloween. What do you mean? your Nicole Kidman's face from that dead from that dead on shot at the beginning of Destroyer. Oh, man. Here's the thing. What if I did dress up as Nicole Kidman and Destroyer for Halloween?

I would get it. I would be the one person who'd be like Nicole Kidman and Destroyer, right? Yeah. Leather jacket, shaggwig. The wig is really that. The wig is, well, but I think it's. But it's, it's that paired with the just like, she has never seen SPF in her life.

Right. Baked skin. It's so, it's, it's, it's the teeth, it's the dressing, because,

like, she's in basically, like, bootcut denim. Oh, yeah. And it's, yeah.

It's so, it's, this isn't like gap ad denim. This is like, um, crisis denim. She's, she's in,

head to toe. in crisis denham she's doing like crisis Los Angeles drag work she it's so it's so much

it's so much and like I think I was willing to be more generous the first time that I saw this movie on the look of the character but now on rewatch it just feels like it's pushing so hard to be this type of unrecognizable thing that I don't think really serves the material

that it becomes a distraction. I was very distracted on this watch with how the amount of effort going into making Nicole Kidman look this way for a performance that I think she's actually pretty good, that it draws a way. from the performance. Like, if it was more chill about the... I don't even want to use a word like de-glam, which, of course, we can talk about de-glam. I wrote it down.

I wrote it down. Yeah. That it's just like, I don't know. It feels so performative for lack of a better word. And it doesn't do justice to the things that I do think work in this movie. The performance, which I think is good, and the character that could be, on the page, I don't think it's a very interesting character.

And I think that it feels like an overcompensation for an underwritten protagonist. Once we get on the other side of the plot description, I want to talk about the script for this movie, because I do think there are certain things about it that are hindrances to what's going on. We definitely are going to talk. about Karen Kussamba, the director. Love. Love. Which is why I hate to dunk on this movie.

And it's not my favorite of her directorial efforts either. Like there are certain things that I think I have definite criticisms of the direction of the movie. That all said, and I was surprised you had, I think you

liked or maybe commented on my letterbox log of this movie. So I saw it in my in my notifications and I clicked on it. And I was somewhat surprised that I had given it two and a half stars. Not that like, your letterbox star ratings are too determinative because like, that's, I can't. These things are all fluid. These things are all fluid. But I was surprised because I had recalled my reaction in the moment as being like, oh, I thought that was pretty good. And I kind of had the same reaction to it

this time, which is a flawed movie that nevertheless kept my attention and had enough sort of peaks with the valleys that ultimately I was glad to have seen it again. Do you know what I mean? I don't know how many times I'm going to be rushing to go pop in Destroyer now, you know, from now on. But I wasn't mad about seeing it a second time. I was glad to watch it again, A, because I think I was more positive on the performance than I was the first time I saw it. But also just, this is one of those movies that's like you do have a few like connections that are positive on this movie. Like there are smart people who like this movie. Yeah.

In the way that it always gives me pause like I should check out Destroyer again to see if I'm wrong. If I if my initial reaction to it was wrong. But no, I feel I almost felt a little harsher. I feel like because when I went and. did my log. It was like right after I watched the movie and I was like two and a half. Yeah. There's things to recommend the movie for. The movie

doesn't work. And in 24 hours time my opinion has grown even harsher on it. Especially like the structure of this story, the I think pretty thin portraiture

of like crime slash neo-noir as a genre. There are certain characters in this movie, certain major characters in this movie who are drawn so paper thin that it really like it really it has a problem and also the character that you invest so much in kidman's character to me feels like so tropey and so sort of like uh direct from a screenwriting manual you know what i mean a first draft of something from a screen yeah you know yeah and i think that kidman and kutman and trying to dig really deep and in some ways they get there, but it's just such a thin script

with not a whole lot going on and certainly things that have been done to richer, more interesting results in other movies. It is very tropey, like you said. Yeah, yeah. Um, so we're going to get into all of that. I think this was also a movie that I very much remember as being like a TIF movie that like I for whatever reason I remember part of it is because I think momentarily this this thing had premiered at Telluride and then went right to TIF and I remember at the time the buzz on her performance in particular was really strong that people were like penciling her in among their like best actress predictions for that year people had already memed the set photos it the other thing of

to bring back to like the D-Glam thing is those set photos were floating around and like the set photos of Charlize Theron and Monster felt like a template there because like those set photos are what absolutely kicked off her Oscar chances. Every once in a while you will get people who will try to

replicate the Charlize Theron and Monster set photo thing a thing that was so I mean whatever if it was calculated then good on New Market or whoever it was who was representing a monster that year. But I really feel like it was fairly organic that just like somebody papped a set photo of

Charlie Steyron on the set of Monster and be like, you'll never believe who this is. And that had people so intrigued and it was the only thing people really, you know, had to hold on to for that movie for months. And it intrigued people, but it also had to. people kind of underestimating the movie because it's like, is this just a stunt? Is this just like, you know, we have buried glamorous actress Charlize Theron in this serial killer character and like, correct me if I'm wrong, but did that movie come out before or after? It must have been before. Jared Leto doing John Hinckley, or Mark David Chapman, rather, not John

Yeah, because I think I was in college for that movie. Leto would have been still pretty young at that point. I was in high school for Monster. Okay, then that movie was trying to sort of like, I guess, ape monster. But anyway, and then once people saw the movie and saw the performance, then the lowered expectations, weirdly, of that set photo. But also, like, the extreme fascination that it had caused

was sort of this perfect storm of, like, Everybody was aware of it, and now everybody is really impressed by it. And nobody's really been able to replicate it, in part because it was such an organic, sort of like, you know, we don't know where this is headed kind of a thing. And you're right that this set photo of Nicole Kidman and Destroyer was definitely like, oh, little Kidman's looking like, she's, you know, must be serious. And it didn't quite get there. Although she did get the Golden Globe nomination.

We'll talk about that. that. We forget movies for grown-up nomination as well. Oh, I didn't even clock that. We'll talk about that as well then, for sure. Well, also, as I said, we'll talk about Karen Kusama, whose career was at a particularly interesting point when this movie came out. And I think, like, people like you and I were really rooting for this movie, not so much

for Nicole Kidman and the whole, you know, look of the movie. but because of Karen Kusama's history and coming off of the invitation a movie we both really like though I do think you are that movie's strongest warrior I am Yeah we were rooting for her

I mean like we were also early Jennifer's body fans We'll get into all of that Yes And it was a That Tiff we saw it together One of the reasons how I was like I need to see that movie again

because the most distinct thing about that screening was the people who were a hair's breath away from getting into a physical altercation in front of us. I totally forgot about that, Chris. What was that even over? That was the most memorable thing about that screening. It was because it was full. And I went back and looked at the schedule

because this is something that you and I do. It would have been like one of the last things we saw that festival when we saw it. Oh, yeah. I remember seeing it pretty late. We were bone dry. We were exhausted at that point. But it was also full, and at that point, people don't expect, you know, press screenings to be full. Yes.

And I totally forgot about that. Yeah, those people were going to get into a fight in front of us. Was it at a Scotia Bank screening? Or was it at a, yeah, that's what I thought. That's what I recall. Oh, man. The Adventures of TIF continue, you guys. But we also had seen it late in the festival, so we also had our expectations.

diminished based off of what we were. Diminished for the film, but I think raised for the performance. Because as I said, like, I do think that, like, you know, Kidman was really, really, you know, got a real bump from that tell you ride into TIF thing. And then, of course, they hold it till Christmas. And by that time, everybody, the excitement from everybody had waned. And also... And some of that has to do with Anna Perna was distra.

This was the big push from Annapurna. This was the big Annapurna. Distribution. And the only movie that they didn't really fuck around with that was on their slate was Vice. Like, Vice was locked and loaded for when it was going to be. This movie, it was kind of wishy-washy. They kept changing the Beale Street release date, ultimately, like, really taking the gas

out of the tank of that masterpiece. Sisters Brothers was sort of snuck out and, like, didn't really get a ton of fanfare. they had done Sorry to Bother You but that was earlier in the year and ultimately they didn't really I think they could have Or 2018 too, wow Or 2018 I guess

Yeah Yeah I do feel like there was There was a universe in which Sorry to Bother You could have gotten A from a very adventurous You know studio could have gotten You know an awards push

But like you said They Vice and the annoying thing about that was Vice was their most normy pick. So it's like, it's the, not to draw, you know, too annoying of a parallel here, but it's sort of like when the Democratic Party has this like wide array of possibilities. And they're like, okay, let's go for like, let's go with the least offensive, you know, or the least objectionable or the least outtray, you know, candidate so that we can play it safe. And what's ironic about that is that like vice ends up being this like, you know, it's offensive in its own way. You know what I mean? It is objectionable in its own way.

It ends up being the worst-reviewed movie to have gotten a Best Picture nomination in, like, years, right? Since extremely loud and incredibly close. This is the reason why I'm like, Michael is not getting a Best Picture nomination, because those reviews are too bad. It would be, like, the worst-reviewed Best Picture nominee of all. My Michael alarmism has gone from a red

down to like a safe yellow, here's what I will say. We're in the savages now. So what you're saying is we're in orange. Right, but we're actually in yellow. But I think when the Golden Globe nominations come out is when it could go back up to red, because I do expect Jafar Jackson to get a best actor in a musical or comedy nomination. I would expect it to show up at movies for grownups, too. Michael?

Yeah. Fucking grownups. The worst. Grotops are the fucking worst. I've always said it. Anyway, we'll talk about that when the time comes. We'll also talk about this Golden Globe field. I've still never seen a private war with either my good eye or my eye patch eye. So neither one of those eyes has seen a private war.

But anyway, yes. Okay, before we get into all of that, Chris, would you like to let our listeners know why they should sign up for turbulent brilliance? Because you are going to get more of the show you love. Listener, we have a Patreon. We call it this had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance for $5 a month. You're going to get two bonus episodes. They come on the first and third Friday at the month,

the first of which we call exceptions. These episodes are similar to what we do here on the main feed. talking of movies of high Oscar expectations and disappointing results, but these are movies that manage to score an Oscar nomination or two. This month, we are going into the, to me, tortured waters of The Hobbit, an unexpected journey. You took our own unexpected journey on that episode.

Yes, we are talking about Peter Jackson and his Middle Earth movies, The Hobbit, high frame rate, etc. But we have a lot of other great exceptions episodes in the Patreon archives. You know, movies that we think you love, like the bird cage, or movies you love to hate, like Rob Marshall's 9. We've got masterpieces like Mulholland Drive,

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That's actually an extreme outlier. It is on the axis of obvious disaster. But another Peter Jackson movie, so we do talk about that in the Hobbit episode. You may want to go back and listen to that lovely bones episode as well. But then we have a second bonus episode on that third Friday the month. This is where we go a little bit more off the plot. We call these episodes exceptions.

It's, you know, deep dives into things we obsess about on the show, things like old award shows. We just recently did an MTV Movie Awards recap. We've recapped old golden globes, et cetera. We've talked about the sag I'm an actor speech. We've gone into old. Hollywood gossip like the Jennifer Lopez movie line issue this month. Much like I think when we did a games-only excursion episode

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That price has not gone up since we, We've launched. We appreciate your support, especially in these trying times, these trying financial times. But we hope to give you more of the show you love and have a good time over there. Destroyer, a movie title at war with the Australian dialect to slowly turn it into a New York, New Jersey dialect. Destroyer. Yeah, it's kind of... Is this another...

The diagram of accents for this word is close to a circle. Is this another Nicole Kidman microaggression against Naomi Watts? As this is what's going on. She's like, my American accent is better than yours, and so I'll be able to handle this. Didn't Naomi also have a destroyer thing? Oh, no, that was... It was a TV show, wasn't it? It wasn't Destroyer.

It was something else that was also the name of something else. It lasted for a season. She was, like, having sex. Yeah, she was. was like having like regrettable like sex. Oh, that's going to drive me crazy. What was that? Because it was the name of something else.

Hold on. What do you mean the name of something else? It was like, it shared a title with something. Yes, it did. It did. It was called. I have to search it because I'm going to lose my mind. No, not the watcher.

Oh. Well, the watcher I definitely saw. Yeah. You'll be swell. You'll be great. It was called gypsy. Yes. You can't do that.

No. You really can't. There's got... First of all... Yeah. Well, the musical named after a person, but, like, if you're not going to name it after, like, quite literally that person, then it's just a slur. Yeah, you can't do that anymore. You know, you're...

She's done so much television recently. It's like, you do forget. She's done good television, too. I mean, the show was bad, but I thought she was good on the swans. She was good on the swans. She was also... in Twin Peaks the Return. So, like, there was definitely that.

But, like, she was Gretchen Carlson in the Showtime, Roger Ailes TV show. Which was supposed to be good? I saw some of it. It was watchable. It was Tom McCarthy, so I like Tom McCarthy. But, like, it was a lot. I will say that. It was definitely a lot.

Sienna Miller playing Roger Ailes' wife. classic Sienna Miller thankless role. She was on The Watcher which as a TV series I would just go back and read

the New York Magazine article on it. That's the only, that's the best form of which to take in the story of the Watcher. You mentioned Fuge Capote

versus the Swans. She's on four episodes of the Megan Stalter show too much. No, thank you. She's a main... Much as I love Lena. I'm a Lena diehard.

I'm not watching that show. Much as I would watch Will Sharp mow a lawn, I'm not going to watch him. Well, I mean, yeah. Yeah, I mean, watch a hot person mow a lawn. Yeah. I don't think he mows a lawn on that show. I'm just saying. I would watch Will Sharp read the phone book, is what I would say.

She's also Naomi, a main star of Alls Fair, which is coming back for a second season, and did manage to get an Emmy nomination for something. one of my favorite such and such didn't get any Emmy nominations and yet All's Fair got an Emmy nomination. That was a show that was so bad that it managed to turn it around and be like, everybody says this is the worst thing ever.

You should come watch it, and it worked. Like, people definitely wouldn't have watched it. And then she played Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis on Love Story. And for as much as I was like very so-so on Love Story, somewhat non-lawful. plus. I appreciate it in the same vein of like it takes you like a good amount of time to get used to the fact that that's just what the voice is with Jacqueline Cunney, same when Natalie Portman

was doing it in Jackie. Once you got used to that, I was like, oh, I think Naomi's giving a very good performance on that show. So a lot of people give very good performances on that show. Can I recommend a new season of feud, which I would not be on board for. I'm not on board for most Ryan Murphy fans. I would watch this feud. What? Western Massachusetts COVID concerts like the bar last ditch. Okay.

What is the preferred, is it like a season of the White Lotus where they like end up stranded at a hotel in Western Massachusetts run by the bisexual collective that ran this bar? Is it a season of, as somebody suggested, wait, what was that tweet that, that was that was like, oh, fuck, shit. Now I lost it. What was the tweet where people were like, oh, the next season of such and such should be held? Oh, it was, it was a white lotus one. It was a white lotus.

Okay. I kind of just want like, I want the dropout version of the last ditch story. I want to see Bella Ramsey and Maisie Stella win Emmys for it. Maisie Stella would excel 100%. What did I just? Oh, yeah, because they were both in the liberation. No. Bella Rams is in the liberation.

But you like Bella. Stella was in the man I love. Oh, yeah, Macy Stella, because I said she has iPhone face, so she didn't make sense in that milieu. It's true, though. It's true, though. Like, she's not bad. I think Macy Stella's great, but she did not make sense in that milieu.

I understand that criticism. Yeah. I saw another tweet somewhere that was. I want to see the Bar Rescue episode of that bar. There's just a lot of ways that this could go down. I want to see the wife swap of Last Ditch because I want to see the God Warrior swapped into Last Ditch. God, I haven't thought about the God Warrior in forever. That was a real...

She loves her queer fans. Of course she does. Listen, there is nobody... To my knowledge, these things change quickly. We're also doing last-ditch jokes weeks before. I know. That's true. There will be like a whole new evolution.

The worm could have turned several times since then. But anyway, Naomi Watts. You know who we'd pull at Last Ditch, Nicole Kidman and Destroyer? Yeah. Well, yes. Absolutely she could pull. As could apparently Toriamos when she's trying to turn out. Jennifer Aniston.

I mean, she couldn't pull in a COVID-conscious bar. I mean, like, Nicole Kidman basically plays COVID. I kind of want to put on a mask when she's around in this movie for non-COVID reasons. I just feel like there's, you know, it's like pig pen on Charlie Brown with just like the cloud of dust that is following her. The skin rash is highly contagious. Yeah, there's like ringworm concerns and stuff like that. Like there's stuff's going on with poor. She sleeps on a bed of like nails, it feels like.

She just sleeps on just dusty roads when she sleeps at all in this movie. She just says health is not. Here's what I will also say. And this is classic. This head Oscar buzz skips to the end before we even get to the plot description. Oh, we didn't even talk about the last shot of this movie, which like when I was watching this again, I was like, surely I misremembered that that is the last shot of the movie. Nope, it is the last shot of the ball. Two separate meaningful animals shots at the end of this movie.

first the coyote and then the birds. But no, this is the rare movie that takes internal injuries seriously, that, like, takes seriously the accumulation of body blows that happens in a movie like this, that, like, you get to the end and, like, in movies, it tends to be, unless you're shot in the head, you're fine. And I do appreciate a movie that's like,

listen, if somebody got kicked in the torso, as many times as this character got kicked in the torso, So they'd probably die from it. And just like, and Destroyer is like, fair, yes. We'll talk about the ending. I am prepared to do the 60-second plot, so I will... Good. Trust me, I'm setting that fine.

Okay. We are talking about this week. We were talking about 2018's Destroyer, directed by Karen Kusama, written by Phil Hay and Matt Manfredi. We'll talk about it. Starring Nicole Kidman, Sebastian Stan. Sebastian Stan looking like gnarly as fuck in a way that I'm like, works, for me. He's got the like villain goatee and the shaved

head and I'm just like... Oh, yeah. Literally like... Sebastian Sand, the reason we decided to do this movie not bald but buzzed head. Yes. And I do have to say that different distinct from Fjord.

There is no question that like one of the top three most ridiculous things that will be said this season that were said very early about Fjord is the Sebastian Stan totally unrecognizable as bald. Yeah, that's silly. That's silly.

It's silly. Watching him in this movie, I was not only the cartoon wolf whistling, but like the cartoon wolf whistling and like bashing its head with its shoe kind of a thing, like, to that degree. Toby Keble, on the complete other end of the spectrum, is like weird, long-haired Kaiser Sozee-looking Toby Kebbel. We'll get into it. Tatiana Maslani.

Bradley Whitford, Jade Pettigon. Jade Pettigon, who, like, I watched this movie, and, like, I've seen you in, like, four different things. And then I looked her up and, like, no, apparently I haven't. She just looks like every other Cupidoll-looking daughter. She looks like Macy Stella. Well, maybe, but, like, Macy Stella has personality. We'll get into it. Sure.

Bo Nap, Zach Villa, James Jordan, Toby Huss, Shamir Anderson, and Scoot McNary. Because, of course, Scoot McNary is going to be in a movie like this. It premiered August 31st, 2018. at the Tell You Ride Film Festival, and then did not... It played TIF and then was not released until barely getting out on a Christmas weekend release into three theaters distributed by Anna Perna. The opening weekend, the actual opening weekend, Christmas opening weekend, Destroyer does not show up on box office mojo on the...

Was it just a qualifying release? I think it's because Christmas was at like a weird spot that week, so like it just like, Destroyer doesn't show up on the weekend before, but it shows up on the weekend after. Yeah, Christmas was like a Monday or Tuesday. It only appeared on three screens that first week. Your top five that week was, I gave it a top seven because a couple of movies opened on Christmas Day

that didn't show up until after. But anyway, it was Aquaman, it was Mary Poppins Returns, it was Bumblebee, it was Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse. It was Clint East was the Mule. And then opening on Christmas Day were Vice and Holmes and Watson. A lot of interesting and maybe not that great happening.

It's opening opposite Aquaman, which is like the most glam Nicole that we've gotten in the past decade in a movie. Double Nicole, yes, yeah. The Queen of Atlantis and the Queen of Sunburn. I don't know. Windburn. Windburn, Sunburn, Sandburn.

lots, it's all happening on Nicole's face in this movie. All right, Chris, we've talked around it enough. I'm going to have you give a 60 second plot description of Destroyer. If you are ready, you are ready? Yeah, believe it or not. Believe it or not, here we go. Let's see what happens. And begin. All right, Nicole Kittman stars as LA Detective and notorious gingivitis survivor, Aaron Bell, who years ago

was part of a sting gone wrong. Aaron and FBI agent Chris went undercover in a bank heist, which results in a love affair between them before everything goes south and Chris ends up dead and Aaron forced to abandon him. In the future, a dead body is found, which cashed from the heist, one of the heist's exploded diepacks, leading Aaron to believe

that the evil head of the operation, Silas is back in L.A. Sister, it is time for some grizzled vigilante justice. She begins to track down the surviving, but not thriving, participants, starting with the most off-putting handjob in California history in exchange for information. The next steps on the heel of Silas,

on the heels of Silas include pistol whipping Bradley Whitford, stopping another bank hyacin going full springer on Tatiana Maslani. After all the while, Aaron struggles with her wayward daughter and their estrangement, all brood from Aaron's commitment to her career in general unpleasantness. Also, her daughter is Chris's kid and not her ex-husband's Scoot McNary's. Through an elliptical and extremely confusing series of editing scarequote tricks, we learn that Aaron does not track down or does track down and kill Silas

in the dead body scene at the beginning of the film is him. She then gives all the clues to her Mr. Police partner and presumably to out her involvement in the heist before in a grave slow-mo montage, so sweatily reaching for visual poetry that even Terrence Malick would say, what the fuck? Aaron dies in her car and a nearby skateboarder dramatically lands an entry-level flip trick, the end. I wasn't even thinking about the flip trick, 35 seconds over. That's the last shot of the movie. The last shot of the movie is a extreme slow motion, basic flip trick that a skateboarder does. And it's like, he lands cut to black. What the fuck?

Two things. When you had mentioned the last shot of the movie, I absolutely thought you were talking about the coyote. Because, like, how many movies have we seen of, like, people, of, like, actresses staring plaintively at, like, animals that are supposed to represent their own psyche? And then that cuts to a shot of like seagulls flying in the, in the air. For living off the grid with her daughter carrying her through the snow. Yes. But yes, the skateboarder flip trick reminds me of that Janine Garofalo a bit about how skateboarders will like see her walking down the street carrying like a grocery bag with like a giant thing of toilet paper.

Like a giant like, you know, 24 pack of toilet paper and laugh at her. And she just goes, I want to be like, have you ever landed one trick? She's like, have you ever negotiated the railing successfully? And that's all I ever think of when I see those kids now is just like, have you ever successfully negotiated the railing? Because, yeah. It's just, it is so labored of a final montage sequence. The thing about Karin Kusama is like the origins of us.

I mean, girl, girl fights really good movie. Yeah. And then Eon Flux happens. That's obviously a disaster, though. A disaster I have a taste for. I don't think I've ever seen that movie, or if I did see that movie, it left my brain immediately. Me having fun with Eon Flux is the most predictable thing in the world. I never watched that TV show either, though.

So. Neither did I. But that movie is so galaxy-brained and stupid. But also, that movie was taken away from her. And apparently, the studio cut. that got released of the movie is way worse than what she made. Got it. But, like, she takes the fall for that movie.

And, like, there are parts of Destroyer where I'm, like, was this taken away from her, too? Because the whole final montage of the movie, I do think, is a little embarrassing. And then the, like, structural trickery of this movie that doesn't really serve in. anything other than make the movie kind of elliptical? Yes, that little, the little trick of this investigation that you thought you were on to find Silas is actually happening after she has killed Silas. So that scene at the very beginning was actually a flash forward. It felt like wannabe me a little bit, that thing were like you get to the end of

memento and it's just like, oh, this is actually what we're, you know, this was the movie we were watching this whole time. I think there's two things with it that I have a big problem with. One, it feels like an attempt to make the movie more interesting because it's not very interesting. But two, I think it has the effect of making the movie seem way more complicated than it is. That I definitely agree with. It is a movie where there is very little. that actually happens or is going on,

and it tries to, like, trick you into thinking that it's more complicated than it is. Because, like, I think you come away from this movie extremely confused about what you watched. I think... Unnecessarily so. Unnecessarily so. Like, and, like, where the pieces actually fit together. And it's not really a puzzle movie. This is supposed to be, like, a character study.

One of the things that I actually thought was a virtue of the movie up until we get to that point is how straightforward it is. Is how very much she's going from guy to guy to guy and she's moving up the ladder. She goes to Toby and then she goes to Arturo who is working in the church giving free legal advice to immigrants. And one of the more interesting, I think, parts of the movie was her tracking down Arturo who is, you know, one of the ones who got away, and since getting away, he's been trying to sort of morally atone, seemingly. That leads her to Bradley Whitford, and that leads her to Tatiana Maslani. And then finally, it's like, it's almost like I hate movies that follow video game logic, but it is almost like, and now final loss of video game logic, lead up to

Silas. And then because then the movie decides it needs to, like, throw your brain for a loop at the end. She, first of all, does the, I'm going to shoot the guy before, like, before you think I'm going to. You're expecting this big, long, drawn-out confrontation, and instead she just shoots them. And then cuts right to, oh, it was the beginning all the time. And, like, I was kind of, like, building up my anticipation to, like, to fucking Silas, who has been painted as, you know, totally terrifying and the big bad. And he shot that, you know, the clerk in the bank heist and that whole kind of thing.

And by the way, they were in Palm Springs. Just rent a house and go by the pool. You'll have a much better time than trying to rob a bank. Are you finding my Palm Springs perspective on this movie was very... Yeah, there are stretches of Palm Springs that just look like that. Yeah. No, when they're trying to drive away

from it, yes, absolutely. I thought so too. But I appreciated the straightforwardness of it. I appreciated the fact that like every confrontation she is sort of going to a different extreme. She is, you know, whatever. And like, and for as much as I like, I don't really know what I make of Toby Keble as an actor.

But like... It is wild that he is billed second in this movie. Toby Kebbell is one of those actors who, because he played a mocap version of one of the apes and Planet of the Apes, and like, I've seen B-roll of him, like, whatever, like, with... the little tennis balls on him doing the motions or whatever. I can't get that vision out of my head of him pretending to

like, you know, walk around like an... Wasn't he also in Warcraft? Am I crazy? Was he in Warcraft? I didn't see... Was Warcraft the one with the rock? No. And the animals? I never saw Warcraft either, but I think he might be...

I'm going to pull this up. Why does my brain tell me that he is like first build? in Warcraft. What's the one where the rock fights all the giant like... Rampage. Rampage. Thank you.

Which one is Warcraft? Yeah, Warcraft, I believe, is entirely mocap. Okay. Who's in that one? Nope, it's not... It's not Toby Kevel. No, Toby Kebble is in...

He is not first build. First build, Travis Fimmel. Oh, Toby Cabell, Travis Fimmel. Sure, sure, sure. Oprah, Uma. Exactly. the dumbest Oprah Uma you've ever seen is Toby Keble Travis Fimmel. Oh God, Duncan Jones directed that.

Man, every movie that he makes, I get a little more smug about the time he yelled at me for calling source code a failure. Lead cast of Warcraft, Travis Fimmel, Paula Patton, Ben Foster, Dominant Cooper, Toby Kebill and Ben Schnitzer. Honestly, would on like four of those six. So that's not bad. Maybe I should watch Warcraft. Does it see how bad it is? I wouldn't go that far.

Would not go that far, but you do you. 2016. Wow. It was a time. All right. So, but, right. So I think the ending of this movie cuts short that anticipation for that showdown,

Like for, you know, we've, throughout the course of this movie, all of these flashbacks, we're really, really hoping that, like, you get to see this, like, kind of epic takedown of Silas. And to do it in this sort of offhand way, just to surprise us, feels cheap in a way that I would not, would not expect of Karen Kusama. I know. And it's just like, it just, it was the feeling of we want to. to ride for her. And it's like, in some... I mean, Eon Flux Excluded. I think it's her weakest movie?

Yeah, I mean, Girl Fight's another movie I don't remember very much about from 2000, and that's just because it was 26 years ago. Girl Fight is, like, the best... It is, like, best case scenario for Destroyer. That's a very straightforward movie that just, like, has its criteria, hits all of it. Michelle Rodriguez is good in that.

movie, that's all you need, good movie. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I obviously really love Jennifer's body, and I love the invitation. Like, even more than Jennifer's body, I think the invitation is just like an absolutely, and that's another movie that, like, it has its twists and turns, but it does not have a lot of bells and whistles. And you're dealing with a very, like, who you want, who you get cast.

It's very much of who you get cast, but I think it's really well performed by that level of folks. Like, I genuinely think that Tammy Blanchard is, like, giving, like, John Carroll Lynch is, of course. Like, that's what you cast John Carroll Lynch for to play, like, a fucking creepy cult guy. But, like, Tammy Blanchard and then, oh, who's the Tom Hardy-looking motherfucker in the lead of that movie? Logan Marshall Green, I think is great in that movie. Like, genuinely great in that movie. The most forgotten cast member of The Odyssey. Yes, that's true. Listen, he has to go run and get the weapons. Corey Hawkins gets more to do than Logan Marshall Green and the other. It's true.

Listen, he gets to get, you know, bitched at by John Lagozamo. So, but yes. Anyway, Destroyer does definitely fall into that lower tier. And I think it's much more frustrating because I can see the really good movie inside it. The other thing I wanted to bring up is the screenwriters for this movie are Phil Hay. who is Karen Kusama's husband and Matt Manfredi who have been a screenwriting duo

dating back to Crazy Beautiful they wrote that movie but they were the screenwriters on Eon Flux and they were the screenwriters on the invitation and they also have done like there are movies in which they are like two out of four or five screenwriters

where like Clash of the Titans and Ride Along and RIPD No, wait, RIPD is just them. Sorry. So it's like, these aren't like the great scribes of our time, which actually makes me, like, sort of enhances my theory for this, which is I watch a movie like Destroyer, and they're both like, they went to Brown University

and the American Film Institute and whatever. And like, they are well educated, I think, in screenwriting. Like, Matt Manfredi has a master's degree in screenwriting. And it kind of shows for this movie. movie. In that my, I watch a movie like this and I'm like, like 80% of screenwriters

in the industry have a script like this either in their backed pocket or like this is the kind of movie they have dreamed about writing their whole lives, which is... They would love at any moment of the day to talk to you about their favorite

film noir's like... It's a hard-boiled this detective is down and out and it's the one, you know, it's the one case that has haunted them, and their personal life has gone to shit because of it, and no one will talk to them, and they've got to work their, you know, sources one by one, and they got to work outside the system, and they flash a badge every once in a while to say that they're a cop, but really, are they a cop or criminal? You know, that kind of a thing. And I don't resent these screenwriters for that, because, like,

there are certain genres of things that I have always, you know, dreamed of writing too. But I do feel like it is a very particularly screenwritery kind of movie and that like it just feels like everybody in Hollywood has a movie like this, either that they want to make or they have like a script for somewhere. And I don't, again, I don't resent them for it. but I do feel like it's a little like, all right, have you gotten this out of our system? No, have we, you know, can we move on?

It's less that that's frustrating when I watch it. Like, what's frustrating to me is that, again, it feels all very first draft. There's not a lot of detail. Some of the most frustrating stuff is the character stuff, and this is supposed to be a character study movie. Yeah. You know, the stuff with her daughter all feels very basic and wrote

and not specific. Very. She's dating a guy who wears a chain. You know what I mean? So, like, and he's a bad guy. And it's, there's just, yes, there's not a lot of detail that feels like it makes it stand out. I think especially true of the Sebastian Stan character, who is written so thinly.

And we have to hang the whole emotional motivation for this movie on the fact that, like, she's atoning for getting this guy killed. and it's like, okay, well, we need to know a little bit more from him than just like he's got a great ass, although... I don't know, maybe we need more characters like him. The way you read any script in Hollywood and the way women are described just off of their, like, physical attributes and beauty,

maybe we need more like Sebastian Stanas, Chris in this movie where... He's just hot. He's just got a great ass. Just a hot guy. You don't need to know anything else. Fair enough in one way, but I do feel like... I get to the end of this movie and I'm like, man, we just really didn't know anything about this guy. Why does he go back into the bank to, to, you know, do this?

I guess just because we need him to, because we need him, you know, to die in this, at the end of this movie. But yeah, I think it's just like, it's a lot of stuff like that. It's a lot of really, why is, I'm fine. I'm more fine with, like, that, like, we don't know why Silas is the way that he is. He's just sort of this monster. And it's just like, you can get away with. having your big bad be this sort of like elemental chaos agent or whatever who like I do think we simply must let Sebastian stand be hot again because it's after Trump

and Fjord yeah yeah and also just like be in this mode of like charismatic enigmatic performer not doing high drag of the apprentice or dour humanist drama like Fjord. You didn't see him riding his motorcycle in Thunderbolts, though. So he is still hot in those Marvel movies. I will concede this. I will concede this. I will stick up

for my man there. I also can I also say I really liked a lot of the supporting actors who I wasn't really familiar with at the time, particularly Zach Via as

Villa or Via. I'm embarrassing myself either way, who played Arturo, who again really loved that section of the movie. For as sort of pathetic as James Jordan is and the sad hand job scene, I think the scene of him in the van with her as she's driving away. And he's like, tell me you're not a cop. Tell me you're not a cop. I'm like, I thought that was really good. I'm always happy to see Toby Huss show up, even though it really is. is just like, man at desk at the beginning of the movie. Bradley Whitford in his scene in the movie...

Whitford rules in this movie. Is, like, dancing on a razor's edge of could be the best performance in the movie or could be absolutely terrible at every second. I loved him. I loved him. I thought he was so good. Talk to me about the Tatiana Maslani scene because you... First of all, Tatyani's film career is just really fascinating to the point that I feel like we've forgotten about Orphan Black and the high praise. Emmy winner.

Towards Orphan Black. Yeah. What a surprise Emmy Award. She basically just exists in this movie for Nicole Kimman to beat the fucking shit out of her. But she is also part of the reason why Nicole's dead at the end because like she contributes to those internal injuries. It's their fight scene. Bring Back MTV Movie Award Best Fight because she goes to town on.

Tatiana M.S. Laiian. Yeah. I hate to sound gross about it, but the best scenes in this movie are when Nicole Kippen is beating the shit out of someone. Destroyer could be called Girl Fight. Bradley Whippard. Destroyer could be called Girl Fight.

Could Girl Fight be called Destroyer? Yeah, Tatiana at this point, I'm trying to think of like the first movie that was like post-orphin black movie for her. It was probably stronger, I think, right? We're like, do you remember her getting like low-key Oscar buzz

for stronger for a minute there. Yeah. Stronger than movie about Jake Gyllenhall post Boston Marathon bombing. That was actually a TIF movie in 2017, the year before Destroyer.

And then she was in the monkey and keeper last year, the two Oz Perkins movies, that both of which I wanted to like more than I ended up liking particularly keeper, which

like, Keeper should have been the showcase for her who should have been sort of like her hereditary, her midsumar kind of a thing, and it just wasn't, it was a little too something, or a little not enough

something. I can't put my finger out. If I had more time to think about my thoughts on Keeper, I would probably articulate myself better. And then apparently she's in the only living pickpocket in New York, Playing his estranged daughter, I want to say, playing Torturo's estranged daughter, perhaps. Interesting. I haven't seen that yet.

I haven't either. I'm going by the trailer. So, and then she's in the Tom McCarthy movie, a statement that nobody has seen. By the time people listen to this, it'll have screened at New York Film Festival. She is in another Osgood Perkins movie called The Young People that's supposed to come out next year. Oh, is that true? Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. Oh, and Nico Parker as well.

And Heather Graham and Johnny Knoxville. Okay. Yeah, I don't like Oz Perkins movies, but I will still be excited. I'm curious to what that movie is going to be. I didn't see Keeper, but I hated the monkey. Hated the monkey. I thought the monkey was pretty obnoxious. I really liked long legs, though.

I thought Long Legs was really good. And I felt very that's it about Long Legs. For whatever reason with Oz Perkins, I don't. know if I've ever, like Longlegs is the most that I've ever really loved. Uh, uh, uh, I was Perkins movie. And I won't even say like I loved. I really liked it. But back to like Black Coat's daughter when I first saw that at Tiff. And I had no idea about any of it. And that's a movie that comes super close to actually like being really good. And instead, even in not being great, it is, it is nonetheless fucking like, It's one of those horror movies that I always describe as like, this movie wants to fuck you up.

This movie wants to, like, do harm to your psyche. And I will always appreciate a movie like this. And the atmosphere of that movie is really good and, like, nasty. It is ultimately a little too, like, we've, you know, seen. You know, you can sort of, like, paint by numbers, but for the second half of it a little bit. But, like, for a minute there, it really is humming. And I just like, I like the idea of a horror director who gets to, who gets the sandbox to play in, to play in that Oz gets to play in. And like, I'm fine with continuing that because I do think at some point, I could see him like really pulling it all together. But yes, I agree with you. The monkey I thought was aggravating and annoying. I love the Long Licks press cycle. The, like, mystery box campaign.

that totally pulled a fast one on us. It felt so throwback to the type of things we would get with genre and horror, like, 20 years ago. And it was so fun that I was like, I don't really even care what the movie's doing. Like, please, keep pulling a fast one on us with these movies because the buildup is fun. Even if the movie is whatever. Well, I'm looking forward, once again, to the young people. I will continue to be Charlie Brown running up to the football with Oz Perkins movies. But yeah, I think Tatiana Maslani is good in this movie

with, again, a very thinly drawn character in which, like, she's the daughter of wealthy parents, but instead she decides to, like, hook up with this, you know, bank robber and, you know, get, you know, addicted to drugs and whatnot. And it's just like, okay, well, and she's the, like, clearly the whole point of it is, she's the worst case scenario that Nicole is envisioning

for her daughter, hooking up with this guy who looks so much like Toby Kevall. I think that's... One of the more interesting things of the movie is that casting and the way that, like, they just cast this guy who looks like Toby Kevall for Nicole to just be like, to draw that line, you know, so directly. And that's why Nicole wants to beat the shit out of Tadiana Maslani so much for she's just, like, you know, and is fascinated by this. because the other thing, the one other thing we learn about Nicole Kidman's character in this movie

is that, like, she had rotten parents, she had a bad upbringing, she never really was, you know, cared for and whatever, and that led her to becoming a cop, but it also led her to becoming, like, a fairly easily corrupted cop. I do think it's somewhat interesting that, like, the more cliche version of this movie is that, like, Kidman and Sebastian Stan, as undercover, cover cops get in with this criminal outfit and get addicted to like heroin or whatever and like that's, we're like this one, it's just like, what if we just

like took this money because like this is, you know, our shot at like having, you know, escaping this cycle of having to do this job, which sucks. So I kind of dug that a little bit, but like this whole

thing where like we're just like, oh like what's Nicole's motivation? Well, like her parents we're awful. And it's like, oh, okay, anything more about that? Not really. You know, just sort of whatever. It's just ultimately not working, because I think even if you didn't have the structural, you know, choices of this movie that I ultimately don't think really serve anything or have any kind of purpose in this story, you did the straightforward character, gritty character drama version of this, even if it was told linearly or not.

Yeah, you just, you need more actual character depth. You need more like surprising scenarios or situations. Yeah, yeah. It's, it almost feels like Nicole Kidman is the casting choice because it becomes a stunt then. It makes it the movie seem so much more unexpected. to have someone like her, I think particularly at this career moment, playing the role. What was the grungiest she had ever really gone before this point? Because, like, I know everybody talks about, like, Virginia Woolf in the hours being, like, this de-glam, you know, thing or whatever.

And it's, like, yes, in the fact that, like, she has the prosthetic nose. she's, you know, in the, like, housecoat and with the, like, ink-stained fingers and whatnot. But, like... I mean, she certainly dabbled in darker themes and such, but, like, it ends up being things like birth where she's absolutely stunning. Stunning. Right. Right, right.

Or Dogville, where it's, like, stripped of makeup and, you know, flashy costuming, that type of thing. Yeah. Even in Dogville, she's working that kerchief or whatever. I mean, she's incredible in Dogville. We got to do Dogville at some point. One of my favorite movies of all time. What a good movie. But yeah, she hasn't really gone.

She hasn't played this rough of a character before, which I do think is interesting. I can understand her as an actor wanting to do something like this. And I guess, like, she kind of does it now, but in, like, power suits on Taylor Sheridan shows. Right, right. Well, what is she in? Lioness, is that what it's called? Lioness. Yeah.

I don't know, man. Not for us. No, the Taylor Sheridan universe really is just like a vast ocean where I only know like the things that like bubble up to the very surface. I want to talk about Kidman in the best actress race this year because like we've talked about a lot of these. movies actually from this race before. So, like, I don't want to fully

like repeat ourselves a little bit, but she is a Golden Globe nominee for Best Actress in a drama. That was when Glenn Close was still the favorite, and she's winning. She wins for the wife. I mean, that's literally when she became the

favorite, too, when she won that Globe, which was... We forget it now, but was unexpected at that time. Was it? Because it everybody thought that Gaga was going to win? Everybody thought Gaga was going to win it. And I've absolutely rewritten history in my mind that like, oh yeah, we all assumed going close was going to win.

Interesting. Melissa McCarthy is nominated for Can You Ever Forgive Me? On route to her Oscar nomination. And then it's Nicole Kidman for Destroyer and Rosamund Pike for a private war. Here's my impression of Rosamond Pike in a private war. What do you think? Here's my impersonation of Roseman Pike in a private war. I never meant to start a war

Remember when we did that We're like we each did I never met to start a war jokes And one of us was talking about Jordan Sparks And one of us was talking about Miley Cyrus The gift of the magi of our time Other contenders So Olivia Coleman was in the comedy

category that year And wins for the favorite But so the other comedy contenders Emily Blunt for Mary Poppins returns Elsie Fisher for eighth grade Charlize Theron for Tully. I'm Tully, by the way. She doesn't say I'm Tully, by the way.

She just says I'm Tully. And then Constance Wu for crazy, rich Asians. At the Bafters, you got Olivia winning for the favorite. And everybody was like, well, it's Britain. Of course she's going to win for the favorite. Glenn Close, Lady Gaga, Melissa McCarthy. And then Viola Davis for widows. At the SAG Awards, you got Glenn Close.

winning for the wife, Emily Blunt and Mary Poppins Returns, Olivia Coleman, Lady Gaga, Melissa McCarthy. At the Critics' choice... Sags favorite daughter, Emily Blunt. Yes. Critics' choice was a tie between Glenn Close and Lady Gaga, of course. Emily Blunt, Mary Poppins Returns. God, Emily Blunt and Mary Poppins returns was way more in the mix than I remember. Oh, it... Yeah, it was. Because people remember her winning, supporting actor at the SAG Awards for A Quiet Place, and it kind of... of like took away kind of some of the attention from Mary Poppin's returns. Olivia Coleman, Melissa McCarthy, and then Critics Choice nominated Elisa Apparitio for Roma,

which feather in the cap of the Critics Choice. They were out in front on that one. And then Tony Collette in Hereditary. And we've covered, oh, and this was also, what should call it, Mary Queen of Scots So like Sertia Ronan's in the mix for that And Regina Hall winning New York film critics For Support the Girls Yes, this was this year

So like it was There were a lot of people in contention for this And have we ever done the like Who we think was sixth place this year thing? Do we think it was Emily Blunt for Mary Poppins returns? Do we think it was I don't think it was Tony Colette for Hereditary. I don't think it was Viola for widows.

We should also mention Carrie Mulligan was nominated for Indy Spirits for Wild Life. It's a wild life. Great performance. I think distant sixth place was Emily Blunt. I don't think she was particularly close to getting nominated. Because the other thing about where she was nominated for that movie, it was all before the movie opened. And once that movie opened and people really just didn't...

Some people hated it, but there was... There was a deflated balloon quality to it. Yeah. Well, I think also, Glenn Close, Lady Gaga, Olivia Coleman, and Melissa McCarthy showing up everywhere

really felt like it's four solid and then one spot up for grabs. And I think the fact that Roma doesn't just get a nomination for Yelita Baricio, but also Marina de Tavira, lets you know that like Yolitsa was pretty far.

By that point, Roma was doing so well that it was going to get two acting nominations that like Yolita was definitely in. So I do think you're probably right about that. I do feel like Nicole probably finishes top eight or nine in that voting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, I just don't see Oscar voters

going for hereditary. And they really, if they didn't vote for widows in any of the craft categories, I can't imagine that Viola was all that close either. So maybe a private war, you know what I mean? I guess by that same logic that like a private war doesn't show up in any other categories either, but regardless. I don't know.

Maybe Sersha in Mary Queen of Scots. But it's a very interesting year, I think, for Best Actress. A lot of, we're talking about this from this vantage point of people are already calling this a week year for best actress and I have to pull out my old Kennard which is yes when people say it's a week year for best actress what they mean is

it's a week year for leading actresses for or it's a week year for movies in the best picture conversation having leading actresses because like that is what we're talking about here is that like the Odyssey, Project Hail Mary

Labola Negra what are the other major your contenders that just don't have leading actresses in them. Alsonor, I guess you could talk about I play Rocky. You know, there are very few that have leading actresses. And what it means is you just have to step outside of the usual, you know, the places that we're all looking to find your leading actress performances. And so, you know, they exist.

They are out there. And I mean, I think it also means we probably should be taking. Renata Rinesvah more serious for a nomination for Fjord. Yep, yep. But here's what it also means, Chris. Even though no one's enthusiastic about the performance. It means somebody's got to get on their horse and start a campaign for Rachel McAdams and send help. Do it.

Do it. This is my thing about the whole finger quotes week best actress year is like, okay, so if we have someone who's out in front that we're all happy is out in front, let's make it as interesting as possible. and start talking about some performances that might deserve it, that might not otherwise be able to get in there, like Rachel McAdams and sent help. I wrote, co-wrote with Nate Jones, by the time, again, you're listening to this,

this will be weeks ago, a sort of post-festivals assessment of what we're hoping gets Oscar campaigns this year. And I wrote about Rachel McAdams and Send Help. I also wrote about Michaela Cole in both the Christopher's, and Mother Mary, where I think those are two co-lead roles where I could see her getting a supporting campaign, and I would absolutely look the other way about the fraudulence of it all, if it makes.

Because she's so great in both. Because she's so great in both. I think if I were to make the choice, I would probably want to see her nominated for the Christophers. But, like, I think she ruled both of those ones. But Anne Hathaway is fucking incredible in Mother Mary. They're both incredible in Mother Mary. I think Mother Mary is an interesting movie in that, like, I don't think it fully gets there for me. But in not getting there for me, I am down for the journey.

And you know how much I love that, like, David Lowry does not make the same movie twice. Like, so, but no, I think in general, I think once we get to, like, the floating period blood in that movie, it does kind of lose me a little bit. But Hathaway and Cole are great. I think they're great in that movie. So, was that a spoiler? The floating period, blood? For a movie that opened six months ago? Yeah.

Anyway, backing up to Destroyer for a second. Karen Kusama at this point in her career. So we talked about Girl Fight, we talked about the influx. In 2009, Jennifer's body, a perfect storm of unfair, bad faith, sabotagings of that movie in the culture, which is already when you're dealing with horror comedy on that level, which requires a good bit of good faith from both audiences and critics when it comes to appreciating that a movie is trying to be funny in a way where

you could very easily be like, look at how stupid this fucking movie. movie is X, Y, and Z happen in this movie? Like, dumb. And you're like, that's the fucking joke. Get a fucking sense of humor. Right. Right. But also...

It also is a movie that is just damned by... I mean, it's trying to comment on the culture of that moment, but you're also releasing that movie into a culture of extreme, like... I know I just said culture a million times, but like, extreme rape culture. of the Maxim Magazine thing, of like, especially genre filmmaking, dominated by Dude Bros. Who, like, you make this movie that is a sapphic comedy about rape culture. Yeah.

And the marketing itself plays into that, and you could, I've seen some people try to argue, like, all of the marketing for that movie and how Megan Fox was shown for that movie is like tongue and cheek. I disagree. But I think just casting Megan Fox in the lead in that movie is so brilliant, but also absolutely doomed to that movie. Because the media

and again, complaining about the media is so hack and like I get it. But like, in general, the like cultural slash critical apparatus that existed at that time was really intent on making Megan Fox pay the price for Michael Bay making a bunch of shitty Transformers movies and for Maxim Culture, as you mentioned. And like for all of this, for the like the tail end of like we are,

we are now sick of the Britney Spears thing and we're kind of a little bit ashamed of how horny we got for this girl in a school girl uniform. And so all of this stuff now, Megan Fox was going to personally have to pay for and by extension, Karen Kusama and Diablo Cody's movie was going to have to pay for, even though their movie was so really literate on exactly what somebody like Megan Fox represented in the culture. It also completely took away the fact that, like, she's giving a pretty cany performance in that movie. Like, she knows what she's doing in that movie. But I also think even beyond that, I think Seifred's so good in that movie.

I think Adam Brody is so good in that movie. It's just, it's really well done. I love the ending of that movie. And it got really an unfair shake from both critics and audiences. And unsurprising that, like, a decade or so later, it got this, like, reappraisal. And it now has this, like, cadre of fans, which good for... And young fans, too. Because one of the things I think about when I think about or watch Jennifer's body is that it's like the last...

last call for a certain type of teen movie that just stopped getting made after Jennifer's body. Like movies like that don't exist where teens are the stars anymore. I mean, I guess you could say, that's one of my things about obsession is that I'm confused about is, how old are these people? Are they just all 19-year-olds who didn't go to college? I'm confused. I think, yes. I think, yes.

I think they're all supposed to be just recently out of high school. But yeah, it's a decent point. The other thing I will say, hey, is Jennifer's body, teenage sex and death at Camp Miasma, double feature. Who's stopping me? Hell yeah. Who's stopping me?

Nobody stopped me. The other thing is, I think post-Eon flux, it's such a bummer to see the, like, torches and pillaging for Karen Kusama again, which leads to us, like, really rooting for her. Yeah. Yes.

Well, and she was somebody who, and again, you mentioned the stuff with Girl Fight and Eon Flux. So there was a moment of, like, you know, justice for Karen Kusama, but there wasn't an apparatus for that to, you know, sort of coalesce. She, one of the more underrated things about Karen Kusama's sort of resurgence around that 20-teen's time was her work on. Halton Catch Fire, Halton Catch Fire, you know, show rules. Connection to Scoot McNary,

of course. She directed only four episodes in it, but one of them was the two-part finale episode. And, like, whenever you see the director who they choose to, like, you know, direct, especially like a director for hire is chosen to direct the finale of something,

you know that that is somebody who they really trust to, like, have a little bit more of an authorial voice, have more of, like, she really gets that show. and I thought that show ended so well. One of these days I'm going to do a Halt and Catch Fire rewatch. That was one of those shows that had a first season that people were like, okay, there's a lot of TV on them.

I'm really going to make time for this show. And it wasn't like really great. And then that second season, they decided to change the perspective from following these two men, Scoot McNary and Lee Pace. We're like, now we're going to centralize McKenzie Davis and Carrie Bichet's character. and like, fuck, it really, really made that show sing. And I really loved it. And it's one of those shows that just, like, I should have put it on my New York time top 10 TV shows.

It came close for me, yeah. It's just like, it was at a time where everything had to be so, like, catchy, have a hook. I mean, literal catch in the title of the show. You know, it's like, it's the breaking bat moment where it's like, you gotta be a drug. dealer. You got up. It's a, it's a mockumentary comedy.

And like, it's really somewhat devoid of those things. It's just really good. Yeah. And really well written. Well, it also, though, it plays in that sandbox a little bit where it's like these guys who are like sort of inventing the like the personal computer at this time. But it's not doing the like Steve Jobs. It's not doing the major figures of it.

but it is sort of writing this character, particularly, I think, the Lee Pace character, where it's like, what if we did a difficult men version of something, but like without guns and drug dealings and, you know, hit jobs and whatever? But instead it's just like people being cutthroat about inventing the computer, inventing the personal computer. But Kusama's work within television, I think, is underrated. She ends up, you know, she's directing episodes.

of Masters of Sex and Billions and Man in the High Castle and stuff. She directs the pilot of Yellow Jackets, again, a director for hire who directs a pilot, like you have to show, you know, show some respect. She also, and I'm never going to shut up about this show, she is one of the handful of directors who does an episode of The Dead Ringers remake, the Rachel Weiss starring Dead Ringers remake, her along with Sean Durkin does three. Sean Durkin directs or co-directs three episodes. But Kusama does the one episode that I believe is the one that is where they go to this like plantation home down in the south where it's this like generational money.

And there's this like, you know, there's this ghost element going on and like there's like a supernatural shit happening. And I believe, somebody correct me if I'm wrong that that's Kusama's episode. but I'm pretty sure it is. That is like, that show, I flipped for that show for like all the, like, moody sort of like visual stuff and, you know, atmospheric stuff it was doing anyway. And, like, she kind of cranked that up even more for this. And it was ultimately the second last episode of it. So she's been really good as a TV director. And then I wanted to make mention of the invitation in particular because that is a movie.

that like... Good for spooky season. Good for spooky season. I didn't make note of that movie until it was like already on Netflix, I think for like even a few weeks. Like I meant, I feel like I ended up writing about it for my, my previous employer. Just sort of on a whim where I was like, oh, this is like doing decent numbers on Netflix or like showing up on their whatever like decent numbers on Netflix. But it's just showing up on their like most watched, you know, charts or whatever. I'm like, I have not heard of this movie. Let me check it out because it was a South Buy premiere that year in 2015. And it was a South By Premier in 2015 and then didn't get released until 2016.

So it like sat on a shelf for a year and then got a limited release and then sort of like poked out through on demand. And then ultimately, I think it wasn't until it got added to Netflix that people actually started watching it. And I was like, I do consider myself an early adopter of that movie, and I just think it is so well done. Just a very simple, like, you know, one creepy night in the Hollywood Hills, but it uses its environment so well. There's an opening. The opening shot, which is sort of like Evil Deadesque, where you're sort of like a fender eye view of the car going up, up, up through the winding roads to this house up in the Hollywood Hills to sort of emphasize just sort of like how weirdly. isolated you can be in the middle of one of the biggest cities in the world. It also does the kind of like bare bones character detail thing so well in a way that

Destroyer doesn't. Yeah. Like, it gives you just exactly the amount that you need and it doesn't really elaborate much deeper on character stuff, but it's still very engaging. And like, the invitation doesn't like become a thing at like awards. season that year. It's not to that degree of like, I don't think, I'm checking out its awards tabs if it, like, showed up anywhere. And it really didn't. It got some nominations at the Fangoria Chainsaw Awards. And well, and deservedly so. Matt Manfredi and Phil Hay wins best

screenplay at the Fangoria Trainsaw Awards. But like, it's not a movie that becomes like, you know, like obsession or like, you know, hereditary or whatever, like become something that, like, you know, attention must be paid. But, like, there were freaks. me who would like just like it dead it was a one of the classic word of mouth movies in that you don't feel like the technology today has allowed us to have word of mouth you know movies anymore but like i just remember like i told everybody to watch that movie and i still hear back from people being like that movie the invitation was so good remember the thing at the end with the you know the landings well the ending is so great too it has this like cliffhanger quality where the

It's like, sure, you could go and make a sequel about it. And I'm sure it might frustrate some viewers, but it has the effect of it's just a really, really strong image, but also recontextualizes everything else that you had just seen. You could turn it into like the stranger's situation where like there's a whole like franchise and like there are now like seven strangers movies that exist out there. Yeah, no one likes them. No, no. There are a couple things in the second strangers movie and the same. strangers pray at night that, like, I appreciate it, but like, the strangers should have been allowed to exist on its own because it's better. The ending is better with nothing after it. You know what I mean?

I thought about the invitation a lot when I saw Hope, which also has an ending that's just, like, fodder for a sequel, semi-recontextualizes everything that you've seen, but works in the opposite direction, that it's like, well, yeah, this is definitely. to just like infuriate people. You comparing that movie to The Invitation is the most excited I've been to see Hope in a while. Oh, no, the ending of Hope is going to make you so mad. It's going to make you so mad. Hope, a movie that I would recommend as highly as anything else I've seen this year, but maybe is a bad movie. I don't know when I'm going to be able to see it because I...

Hope is so fun. I don't believe it's at my regal. So like, and I don't know whether I had just like missed it when I was at Tiff. which always happens with one movie or another, where, like, I've missed the window to see it when I was in Toronto. Because I also do that and come home from Toronto and have that weird hangover where it's like, I maybe don't want to be in a multiplex again for a little while.

Right, right. And, I mean, like, that movie is a huge ask when you're in that place because it's three fucking hours long. It gave me a headache. Did it? It's that, you know, brash and brazen. Oh, boy. Okay.

That is a feature, not a bug. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. What else do you want to say about Karen Kusama, sort of like moving forward? You know, I feel bad for dunking on Destroyer. I am very much rooting for Karen Kusama. Why the hell is Jennifer's body not in the criterion collection yet? Yeah, that's real. I'm sure that's coming. I'm sure that's coming. Girl Fight is in the collection. Her only upcoming credit on her for directing is an episode of, at least one episode of a TV show called Life is Strange that stars Maisie Stella.

God, she's getting a lot of play in this for a movie she's not in. Maisie Stella, Tatum, Grace Hopkins, Tom Cullen, Roel Costio, Owen Teague. What is this show? strange. Watch it be like a thing I've seen like a trailer for 12 different times, but because like TV works like that, I need to like, life is strange TV series, upcoming American television series. Science fiction mystery drama for Amazon Prime video. Okay. Based on a video game. Oh, God. Okay. Um, well, if anyone's going to make that good, it's Karin Kusama. Well, that is the truth. How many episodes is this supposed to be? Principal photography, Vancouver in June of

2006, expected to wrap. So it's like filming now. That's interesting. So we know a lot about it for a movie or for a TV show that's filming now. Maybe it'll be good. Created by Charlie Covell, who was the British showrunner behind, it's the end of the fucking world, which people really liked. So, you know what? I'm going to give this some leeway. Yeah.

When it arrives. Yes. All right. Last note, Nicole Kidman was also nominated for Best Actress at the AARP Movies for Grownups Awards, nominated alongside Glenn Close, who won, Viola Davis for Widows, Julia Roberts for Ben is back.

By the way, that's Ben. Julia Roberts for Ben is back was another movie we've done episode on from this best actress year. Yes. They were also maybe the only people aware of this thing before it dropped and everyone watched it. Sandra Bullock was nominated for Birdbox. Sure. Yes. Is they only send screeners to the AARP?

I'm a little confused. Well, is this one of those movies that we can start the rumor that AARP voted on it without seeing it? that was definitely such a big thing that December birdbox. I know for I was... But it came out of nowhere. Sort of. It was a Susanna Beer thing. So like, and it was Sandra Bullock.

So I had it a little bit on my radar, but I certainly didn't think it was going to be... It sort of set that template for a while where like every December Netflix made sure to release something. Netflix's December surprise. That would be like the thing that everybody watched when they were home for the holidays kind of a thing. I will say Netflix and a couple of the other streamers were very canny for a while there, maybe they still are, of like releasing a new streaming thing, particularly a like binge releasing a new streaming thing,

right before a major American holiday, right before Thanksgiving, right before Christmas, where they knew that like people would be gathering with their families, but they would also have copious downtime that they would need to fill somehow. and why not feel that by like knocking out an entire season of a TV show or why not fill that by watching Birdbox once or twice with your family? So good for them for that. If Glenn Close hadn't won the Movies for Grownups Award for the wife, would we have needed to like send somebody in for a

wellness check on the movies for grownups voters? It feels like that was so tailor-made for the M-4-Gs that like if it didn't work for them I would have been very concerned right yeah yeah okay um do you want to give me a second to pick an IMDB game because as you mentioned it's been a minute since we've done a regular episode exactly before I you got on camera very good very good okay okay this is going to be a little bit challenging But I think it'll be fun. All right. Chris, why don't you let our listeners know how we do with the IMDB game?

Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. That's not enough. It just becomes a free-for-all of hints, and that is the IMDB game. It is the IMDB game. I just checked my notes for any little last things. And I did mention, I did want to say it a second time.

The, her yelling at Sebastian Stan, nice ass, and him saying it's all yours. Send me to heaven. Send me to heaven on that line. I'll take it. All right. Chris, what did you decide to pick for, or do you want to give her a guest first? I guess I give you the choice. I'll give first.

You already set me up for that. Okay. I went into the Karin Kusama filmography, and I pulled someone who apparently we've never done before, and that is Michelle Rodriguez. Oh, get out of here. No television. No television. So no lost, the show that everybody hated her character on. All right, so I'm going to say at least one Fast and the Furious movie is going to be on here, and I'm going to guess the first one, the Fast and the Furious.

Incorrect. Motherfucker. Uh, widows. Also incorrect. All right, give me years. 2000, 2011, 2013, 2015. All right, 2000 is girl fight.

2000 is girl fight. 11, 13, 15. Yes. Speaking of loss, just that's sequence of numbers. 11, 13, 15. Okay, now I'm trying to line up which of these might be, Fast and Furious movies because I feel like Fast 5

which sort of reignited the whole thing which she's not in I'm pretty sure because I think she like quote unquote dies in the fourth one which I think is 09 and I think Fast 5 is 11 so what did you say 13 15

11 13 15 Okay so I'm going to guess one of those is Furious 7 Furious 7 is 2015 Okay and then Fast and Furious 6? Is 2013, correct? 2011 is what is left.

I don't think she's in Fast 5. So I'm not going to say that. 2011 Michelle Rodriguez is in... It's not Avatar. Weird that I didn't guess Avatar. Weird that she's not there for Avatar. A lot of weird going on.

Okay. Is 2011 Fast 5? I'm just going to guess that. It is not past five. Okay. It is maybe the reason that I pulled this for your... Oh, fuck. Because this is hard. Fuck.

You do not remember that she is in this movie. This movie got very bad reviews, though I remember it having a really striking original teaser. Oh, horror? Uh, no. Thriller? No. Okay.

No. Genre. Okay. actually kind of a genre mashup. 2011, so it's not like John Carter or something like that.

Genre mashup. Is comedy one of the genres that's being mashed up? No. No, I do not think that this movie has any sense of humor whatsoever. Oh, no. Okay. Is it like a famous director? Is it like a notable director? I don't think so. Let me pull this up to see who...

If you can't think of it off the time... top of your head, then I'm going to say... Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Okay. A music video director, though. Okay. Is she like a lead, or is she supporting? I believe she is second build. She is

none of those things. Oh, no, she's second built. She's a part of a franchise. No, though I think it wanted to be. Okay. 2011. I will say one of those

mashup genres is a war movie Oh, was it Battle Los Angeles? Battle Los Angeles. Okay, all right. Alien invasion war movie. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yeah, you got the sense that they wanted

to have like Battle Sydney, Australia, Battle London, yeah, for sure. Okay, excellent. I'm glad that my intuition on it having multiple Fast and Furious movies paid off, even though they were not the ones I guessed initially. Okay, for you, I also went into the Karen Kusama, the repertory players, and I pulled out, I don't think we have done this person before,

and if we have, I don't remember recently, Tammy Blanchard, the aforementioned Tammy Blanchard, one of which is television. Which is Judy, me and my shadow. Yes. My life of Judy Garland, me and my shadows. Yes, where she plays young Judy Garland. Um, we've guessed rabbit hole before for other people, and it has not shown up, so I'm going to keep that in my back pocket. Um, what did she show up in semi recently and we're pretty bad, um, um, I, I, I, I, I will say the invitation. The invitation is correct. Yeah. Um, because I think she's like second build. Yeah.

She might be built above. Oh, no. Fine, I'll say rabbit hole. No, your intuition was correct. It is not rabbit hole. Yeah. Justice for rabbit hole. Okay, so your years are going to be 2006 and 2014.

I think one of these... Is 2006 Bella? No. The people's choice winner, Bella. No, it is not. Is she in that? Yes. I've never seen that.

No, not Bella. It is a movie directed by a very famous actor that I keep saying we should do for exceptions. And you keep being like, yeah, maybe. And then this movie is one we should do. Yeah. What is that? 2006. I can't imagine how high she ends up on the cast list for this, because there's a lot of people in this movie.

2006 actor-director. What year are we talking? about. So that's the year of Dreamgirls? Yes. That's the year of Dreamgirls.

Actor-director movies. Is this No, we wouldn't do Frost Nixon. That's the Best Picture nominee. Right. We've done. Bobby is a main feed episode. What other actor directors are?

More famous as an actor or more famous as a director? Definitely as an actor. Okay. Um This was a movie that had a lot of big expectations for this could be like the movie that makes them a successful director, but it didn't really pan out that way. Okay. Which is why I think we should do it as an exception. I'm just trying to think of nominees from that year.

Tammy Blanchard is very low build. Actually, I looked at the IMDB, and she's like, she's higher on the IMDB list of cast members than I would have expected, but it's a big ensemble. Big ensemble. Okay. The poster features a close-up of a face, of a horned-rimmed glasses on an eye on a face. Oh, so it's a period movie. It's not directed by, like, Tom Hanks. No, but like

That echelon is where you want to be working in Is it directed by like Ed Harris? No, you're getting colder. Okay. But major movie star who has an Oscar directed this movie. What is Tom Hanks' distinction as an Oscar winner? Two-time winner back-to-back. Well, not back-to-back, but two-time winner.

Two-time acting Oscar winner. Had already had two acting Oscars? Sean Penn. No. Okay. Sean Patton didn't have his second by then. Had two acting Oscars at this point. Yes.

So not Hopkins. I don't think he's directed. No, I don't think so. That's interesting, though, that he hasn't. Dustin Hoffman? Not Dustin Hoffman, but it's an actor I always think of in the same, weirdly in the same breath as Dustin Hoffman. I don't know why. I mean, they've existed in the same milieu together for a long time.

Sure. All right. Who won Oscars in the 90s that are not Tom Hanks, Anthony Hopkins, Nicholas Cage, only has one Oscar. Who had just won Oscars? Philip Seymour Hoffman. Not Jamie Fox. Not...

You're getting closer. You're moving farther away from the era. So I should be in like the 70s or 80s. Uh-huh. Jack Lemon? Nope. Are both of these persons Oscars in lead? No.

Is one in supporting or is both? One is in supporting. Got it. Denzel Washington. No. Oh, Denzel Washington would have been a good answer. Mm-hmm. Because it's a director.

Yes. it is not even somebody you usually think of as like has dabbled in directing a bit like this movie really does kind of feel very anonymous for a movie that got like a stray Oscar nomination Oscar nomination above or below the line below the line okay and has many a list stars in it it's all too appropriate it's the good shepherd yes it's all too appropriate that it's taking you this long to get it because like nobody ever thinks about this movie anymore the good shepherd yeah Oh, the reason that I keep being like, I don't know about doing an exception for that movie is you're going to watch it and be like, I have nothing to say. I will have plenty to say. You're going to spend three hours with that movie and think, I have nothing to say. At the very least, I will talk about, like, CIA shit. And, like, that'll be at least fun to, like, talk about. Very anonymously directed. Very anonymously directed. The 2014 movie is also a disappointment and is also a moment.

movie we could probably do as an exception. Although it did have an above-the-line nomination. Tammy Blanchard has a relatively very small role in this, although I guarantee you there is a line from this movie that you have repeated that she says. Okay, 2014 is... She sort of exists in tandem with somebody, and then there is a third character who they make something of a trio. Is it Into the Woods? It is Into the Woods?

Yes. The festival? The Festival? The King's Festival? You have definitely said that. Yes, she's one of the stepsisters. Yes. And into the woods.

Her, and I believe it's Lucy Punch. And then Christine Baranski is the Wicked Stepmother. It's intentionally three blind mice that they end up blind in that one, right? Yes. Okay. That's what I thought. Okay. We should do that as an exception.

I will end up just like angry by the end of that. But like, yes, that's another movie. We talked earlier on our group chat about a movie. Sometimes we'll all walk out and I'll say, that was pretty good. And my voice will go like very, very, very high into the woods was one of those movies. I was like, yeah, I thought that was pretty good. And it's just like, what? I'm sorry?

Thank God for Chris Pine in that movie is all I'll say for now. Yeah, Billy Magnus in too, but like, yeah, Pine, I am very much resistant to the Chris Pine Poptimism in general, but he's very good in that movie. Any closing thoughts before we sign off? Hmm. I will say, seeing Nicole Kidman, this is a little bit like, whatever, we shouldn't talk about actresses faces as much. seeing Nicole Kidman thin-lipped, especially in those flashbacks,

I was like, this is working very well, where it makes her look more like her younger self. Because there is a part of this, where like, especially in the flashbacks, you're like, how old is she supposed to be? Like, is she supposed to be giving us, like, early 30s or something like this? But I think seeing her with her, like, 1980s, like, lip shape, helps in that regard.

And it also is a reminder that these actresses who end up looking on award shows like they have these crazy fucking faces are because they like just got fucking filler that weekend. And it's like their faces at the craziest it will look for a while now.

And like if you see them in between movies, you know what I mean, or in between these things that like their faces generally go back to looking halfway normal. I guess my last thought is, I take it all back. Nicole Kidman is an inspired choice for the origin story of the Mohawkland Drive alley monster. Inspired choice. Because that's kind of what it's giving.

It's like the Mohan Drive. If she survives these internal injuries, that's what she's going to end up to. And has a spa day, but leaves halfway through. She goes to find that sack full of die pack money in the dumpster, and instead she just decides to live there forever. Yeah. Yeah. All right, folks. That is our episode.

episode. If you want more ThisHad Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this hadoscurbuzz.com or our Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz. Chris, where else can they find you? Letterbox and Blue Sky at Chris Fie File. That's FI.L. I am on Letterbox and Blue Sky at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D. I am also at Vulture. Hey, Vulture. Doing vultuary things, doing the movies fantasy league and Cinematrix and Award stuff. And we are into our score. phasing phase of the movies Fantasy League and you will still be able, if you

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