This Had Oscar Buzz - CATEGORY IS… – Casting

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

It’s May Miniseries time!! Presenting CATEGORY IS…! We’re in a moment of the Academy Awards introducing new categories for the first time in many years, and we’ll be spending the whole month discussing the categories already announced and a few we think should be! First up: Best Casting! This episode, we discuss the Oscar’s newest … Continue reading "CATEGORY IS… – Casting"

No, the right house. I didn't get that. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh. Bring it to the runway. Category is stars, statements, and legends. And here are the nominees for the first new Oscar category in 25 years. And the very first Oscar for casting goes to...

Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that's getting category after category after category. Category is, it's a May miniseries, everyone. Gary's one and all. Every week on this had Oscar buzz, we usually talk about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. But this is the month of May, listeners.

The Oscar hopes have died, and we're here to perform the autopsy, except this month. We're doing something a little different, as we are prone to do. Sometimes we've done movie-centric may miniseries. This one, we're going off the plot again to do something and talk about, I think, where the academy is in a current moment, which is a state of evolution. Yes. And I think in an evolution that people like us have wanted to see or, you know, in several different versions. So we're going to be talking about things that have happened and things that we would propose to happen in terms of category is new categories. New categories.

It's not a full if we ran the academy kind of a thing. It's maybe dipping our toe in the realm of like, just let us handle some new categories for the next few years. It's the right time to do it because where you're. just had the first casting Oscar, we're about to have the first stunts Oscar. And then because we have four episodes in May, we get some wiggle

room to talk about other categories we propose. Things that people have talked about, people who love the Oscars, people who love movies, have said there should be a category for that. There should give out Oscars for of course we had to start

the May miniseries with casting. Because there already is. In many ways, the Oscars already do hand out awards in the categories of star statements and legends because, you know, you have stars in the form of actors, statements in the form of screenplays, legends, they get the, you know, your honorary awards and whatnot. But we said, what if there were even more? What if we had categories like Butch Queen first time in drags? Perhaps. Who would have been the 2025 winner? I was going to say, who would have been the 2025 winner for Butch Queen first time in drags?

Like, really, really explore the space there. People have gotten Oscars for face. People have gotten, okay, so who has gotten an Oscar for in the face category? Who has gotten an Oscar for Executive Realness? Who has gotten an Oscar for? Melanie Griffith and Working Girl almost got a, Oscar for executive realness. Michael Douglas got his Oscar for executive realness. There you go. There you go. Absolutely.

Hmm. Which Queen first time it drags out a ball. Linda Hunt. Yes. Oh, that's a good. See? See? Yeah. Face. I mean Garbo never won an Oscar. No, but like Grace Kelly did. Was she really serving face? If you want me to talk crap about an Oscar, you got to bring up Grace Kelly. Man, man, the claws are out, honey. Okay, all right. No, there have been plenty of best actress winners who were serving face. Audrey Hepburn and Roman Holiday and whatnot. She's serving more than, like, face, though. Oh, Joanne Woodward served three faces. Joanne Woodward's a great answer. Um, um, um, um, um, um, um, hold please. I know, I, I know this one. Uh, she win, she, she,

didn't win best actress for it. Who? Renee Falconetti as Joan of Arc. If anybody ever served face on film, why did I think she won an Oscar for that? Maybe I was just like, who serves face in movies? Falconetti. Well, no, I don't know.

You are right. The correct answer to this is Joanne Woodward because she served three faces. She served face, face, face. Yes, yeah, all right. What other categories are there? Listeners, get at us with who you think has one ball categories. We're not doing a ball.

We're just talking about categories, and category is. This just makes sense. Honestly, this had Oscar Buzz made miniseries, the Jellicle Ball, would have been a wild, a wild swing for us. And then one of our guests will be sent up to the Heviside later. We'll kill one of our guests. Damn it, we should have thought of that. Damn it, that would have been good. No, this is going to be great.

This is going to be us sort of galaxy-y-es-es-old. reigning our way through four weeks of proposed new categories. We're going to really sort of delve into what that might have meant looking backwards, what that might mean in terms of parameters, some of our favorite choices for various new, these various new categories through the weeks. We're going to do casting this week. Next week, we're going to be back with voice acting, then dance direction, which is the old Oscar category, but which by all existence and purposes, it exists. It exists.

It means choreography, or else that's how we're taking it. And then we're going to wrap it up with stunts because we are a bunch of stunt in hose, and we will bring it to you. We're starting in the present, and we're moving towards the future. The stunts Oscar is this coming ceremony. Yes, I keep forgetting this is it. This ceremony or is it the next one? Stunt Oscar.

And I always have to look it up, and it just is not sticking. It's just not sticking. It is, no, films released in 2027. So it's not the films of this year. It will be for the 100th Oscars. So starting off 100 by Stunton on those hose. And they need to have... Oh, no, yes.

This is the way to remember it. It's the 100th Oscars, because we always talked about how you start the 100th Oscars with, like, a stunt extravaganza, which we'll get into that. You know, a stunt spectacular opening the 100th Oscars. Of course, you have to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, maybe they could speed things up and we'll get the voice acting Oscar and the choreography Oscar this year in the in-between. In emergency

new categories, yes, exactly. New branches and everything. Well, I mean, see, we won't talk about it now, but like voice acting would just be. Project Halmeri is so popular that they were like, we have to do a voice acting category right now. Save it for next week. Save it for next week.

All right. All right. We're here in casting. Joe, we have the very first casting Oscar. I think it's a good test ground for and an inconclusive conversation maybe for a lot of our concerns

for where the academy is right now and how things have really not even gelled around best picture everything is kind of hardening around best picture calcifying yeah yeah yeah yes and I think what our fear

was when they're doing casting is just that they're going to just pick movies from the Best Picture lineup that bolsters the front runners, you know? That it's going to be another category

where we don't see interesting choices outside of the Best Picture race. We're at a moment that is prime for speculation and, you know, sort of nervousness winning the day because we have a sample size of one. And when you have a sample size of one, it is very difficult to extrapolate things like patterns, right? But so I think

because this year, for whatever reason, we had all decided that Sinners was the frontrunner. Why did we decide that? We just sort of did. It was an incredibly popular movie. It had the most most nominations. It was an incredibly well-respected casting director, and it had a fairly wide-ranging cast of famous people and less famous people. I know the Academy was, you know, pretty communicative about the fact that they wanted to make sure that the casting award was not just going to be a de facto best cast award, best ensemble award, as it is at like the Screen Actors Guild actor awards. And so I think by emphasizing that, by emphasizing the fact that this is not just an award for most, you know, A-listers in a movie or whatever, that this is a, this is an

award that will recognize the achievement in building out a cast of, you know, a list. character actors and smaller parts and whatever. I think all of that kind of went into a fairly wide-ranging consensus that, like, Sinners is going to win this one. Sinners is going to win the casting award. And then when one... That casting director is Francine Maisler. Yes. Who has a very extended career dating back to the 90s with a lot of your favorite movies.

And I think when one battle after another won that award... at the juncture in the evening that they won. Because obviously there was, you know, a lot of teeter tottering of, is sinners going to, you know, pull off the upset? Is this going to be, you know, because the momentum was, you know, crazy going into those last few weeks. And then when one battle won, I think was the moment when a lot of people were like, got it.

This is what happened for the rest of the night. Right. And so I think that. That then has now gotten caught up in this new narrative, which is, oh, is this just going to be the new editing award? Is this the new bellwether that whatever wins casting is just going to win best picture because that's how people have chosen to vote for it? And like, on the one hand, I'm like, this is not a not valid concern because it's sort of

a thing that I had in the back of my mind anyway. Are people just going to say that the movie that they liked best was the one with, you know, the casting that they liked best? But also, on the other hand, as I said, this is a sample size of one. So any kind of extrapolating being like, well, that's it. That's how it's going to be forever is far too early in the game to say anything for sure. I think it's not just as in a sample size of one, but I do think even though we are in a situation, where it is the best picture winner did win from a lineup of only best picture nominees doesn't necessarily make it the thing we were afraid of it being

because I do think that this is, if you just went from best picture nominees of last year, this is probably the most interesting lineup you could come up with from the 10 best picture nominees. So give the lineup of the five nominees for casting for this year. You have. For 2025. Nina Gold, Hamnet. You knew Nina Gold would get in there for something at this point because this was another concern.

We'll put a pin in and come back to it that like the same three casting directors who you would know, who you see attached to every movie will just be like getting on those Oscars. We can't know if that's going to be the case just after one year. Sample size of one. We'll come back to that, though. Marty Supreme, Jennifer Van Dedei, the Secret Agent Gabriel Dominguez, Sinners Francine Maisler, aforementioned, and the winner for one battle after another, Cassandra Kulakundas.

So, right, all five of those are best picture nominees. And again, with the caveat that, you know, we can only extrapolate so much, my bigger concern is that are we ever going to get a cast. field of five nominees that isn't completely hemmed in by the Best Picture Category. And if you look at the shortlist, because this was shortlisted to 10 movies, and so... Only three were shortlisted that were not eventual Best Picture nominees. Right. So your shortlist that didn't get nominated were Frankenstein, which ended up being a

Best Picture nominee. Sentimental Value, Ditto. And then Surrott, Weapons, and Wicked for good, all of which were outside of that realm. So already, things are looking pretty stacked towards your eventual best picture winner. Now, the short list was arrived at by a much sort of smaller group. So you can imagine that once you're getting into, you know, larger voting, that things are going to, you know, hue towards the more sort of generally popular films. And I think when you're talking about the Academy, the generally more widely seen films.

Yeah. And I think the reason why there's so much hand-wringing over this is we don't know what the average voter sort of sees as what is great casting, right? Because ultimately, every award cast is in the eye of the beholder. This counts for literally every movie. If you are an Oscar voter, you are free to determine what you value as good screenplay writing, makeup artistry, costume designing, acting, directing, whatever. Like, your rubric is entirely your own.

And with casting being so new. and slightly nebulous, because this is a craft that happens pretty much entirely in the most sort of cloistered and privileged spaces, right? It's not exactly like you can... You're not C-Cing all of the craftspeople on your casting emails, to put it blunt. Sure, and like these are meetings that are happening at the studio. These are meetings that are happening between the direct. and the casting director. There's a little bit more,

transparency is maybe not exactly the word, but that probably comes closest to the idea of what the craft is. You know what I mean? And so the voter is left to do a lot of interpretations when they see the end result. And it's, you know, oh, I really liked, you know, if they want to decide that they are, going to base their casting on entirely ensemble members, that, you know, what movie had the most, did the most with, you know, smaller characters. Because the one sort of thing that, you know, you realize when you think about it for, you know, when you really ponder it is, casting on the level that these casting directors,

are on it, is not your top-tier stars. Those decisions are negotiated by studio heads and directors, especially for major movies. For a movie like one battle after another, Leonardo DiCaprio is not in the movie, you know, because of, I'm sorry, Cassandra Kulakundas. Because Leonardo DiCaprio is not in this movie because Cassandra Kula Kundis sort of found his headshot in a pile. You know what I mean? Leonardo DiCaprio is in this movie because the movie exists because Leonardo DiCaprio said he would do it. Right, right. Leonardo DiCaprio is in this movie because he and Paul Thomas Anderson had a meeting in Cannes one year.

You know what I mean? Or whatever. It's just like, and saying we should work together someday. And like, and that probably goes for the top, you know, the. top stars for most of these movies, right? But the flip side of that coin is, if I'm watching one battle after another, it's impossible for me as a sort of, I don't want to say as a layperson, because I don't want to be like, you know, if you knew better. But like, it's kind of impossible to sort of shut that out, you know what I mean, when it comes in terms of like how well cast

is this movie. It's impossible to be like, okay, now I have to draw this dividing line between mean like, don't think about Leo, don't think about Benicio, don't think about, you know, Sean Penn. Well, Chase Infinity, when they did the presentation of Five, Chase Infinity was one of the, they got a star of each movie to come out and present and talk about that. And Chase essentially said, you know, I got this role because of Cassandra Colacundas. You know what I mean? So, but yes, I think in general for these movies, casting is not going to be how you got the top stars, but I just find it, I think that's a lot to ask of a voter to sort of figure out on their own what casting decisions they are going to credit to the casting director. And it's much easier to just be like, man, this whole cast was great. Give it up to that casting director. It is worth saying that one battle after another is the movie in this lineup of five with the most acting nominations. Also that.

There you go. Because, I mean, to kind of loop back to the thing you're saying of because the nature of what the craft is, you're leaving it up to interpretation of other academy members who maybe don't understand the, like, full nuances of what this job is. You know, it can also, I'm sure that probably there's the full spectrum of people who do understand, get it, and, you know, can appreciate the role of a casting director to the extent that you would hope that they would. And then there's probably, you know, the other people, the people you hear about in these reports of, like, Academy, like, screenings and events where it's just like, this person hasn't been in the industry in 20 years. sure, yada, yeah, yeah, yeah. That they may be like, you know, best casting is most casting, you know, where you're talking about the most roles.

Which 10, yes. Performances you love. People who might think it's basically an ensemble prize. You know, one of the concerns I think we've had over the years of people drumming up this being a worthy Oscar category, you know, that is like, well, wait, what are you recognizing the casting director? You're recognizing the cast, et cetera. Also, for as much as we might sometimes think of it for ourselves this way, the Oscars are not a final exam handed out at the end of a semester's worth of study. You know what I mean? The Oscars are things that, like, people vote for because, you know, it's time to vote. It's not, they don't vote for it to sort of bastardize that old Saturday Night Live seeing about, you know, the show doesn't go on because it's ready. The show goes on because it's 1130. The Oscars don't get voted on because you have.

prepared enough and seen everything and done all your due diligence, the Oscars get voted on because it's time to vote for the Oscars. And so we, who put a lot of thought into this, you know, it sometimes kind of take for granted the idea that like people are probably more often than we'd rather it be the case voting for these things, not quite on a whim, but like not too far from on a whim. You know what I mean? So some of this is not going to be able to be, you know, helped. You know, some of it is just sort of like the way that it goes and the way the cookie crumbles. But I would just like for, and maybe this is a thing that can be, you know, done on a shortlisting level. That, like, the fact that weapons and Surrott ended up on this list of shortlisted finalists is a thing that gives me optimism. Because those are particularly weapons. I think is a really smart choice. It goes outside of expected genres.

It goes outside of the general, like, you could see a world in which Surat might have been. I mean, I guess Weapons, too, was sort of rumored to be, you know, 11th or 12th place or something like that. But in general, because Weapons got the PGA nomination, right? Yes, yes. But Weapons in general is sort of just like, it's really kind of out. outside of, you know, the realm. It only ended up getting one nomination for Amy Madigan, although it did win. But you're, it's, it shows a willingness to look beyond the typical.

And I hope that the, um, the casting directors branch, um, and the, you know, the, the, the folks, you know, assembling the short list, keep moving in that direction. and are not afraid to, you know, leave some of the more expected contenders off of the list in favor of some more adventurous choices. Well, and I'll have things to say about Surat, but like, as you're saying, as you're like kind of dancing around them, we don't really like that choice. I'll just say I don't understand. Wicked for Good being on the casting. That's the one where I'm like, I know there's a lot of people out there who were like, well, Wicked didn't get to it because people thought they just did one production.

Well, they did kind of do one production. But like that doesn't mean it doesn't make it two different movies. And correct me if I'm wrong, there's not a single role that's only in Wicked for Good. That wasn't in the other one. So it does kind of feel like you are. Coleman Domingo voicing the cowardly lion. How could we forget? How could we forget?

How could you forget? How dare you? Yeah. The very distinct vocal stylings that one of the most distinct voices in movies, and you can't tell that that's him. I know. It's fascinating. My favorite thing about the whole wicked for good thing is how much audiences were like, fuck that lion.

Like, that lion did not stick up for Elfima. Fuck that lion. I enjoyed that, yeah. Well, also, I mean, that's just, that is a case where I may be like, maybe that does, that that is essentially the same function as the first movie. Wicked for Good is one of those movies where it's just like, but there's just so many actors. You know what I mean? It's just like, and it's an ensemble full of people who dance and sing and, you know what I mean?

They're big production numbers and that kind of a thing. Well, and Wicked for Good, like, yes, ultimately got zero. nominations, but its place in this lineup is that it was a movie that was probably at the tipping point of it got zero nominations or it got 10. Yes. It was probably within two spots of a nomination in a lot of categories, one would imagine. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's why that's kind of why it's here. So it's like, Wicked for Good maybe represents a lot of what we would be afraid of in this category. I also wouldn't necessarily find Frankenstein or sentimental value to be inspired nominees from that short list. Well, sentimental value, well, maybe you're just a big Cat Cohen fan or a big Cory Michael Smith. Corey Michael Smith fan, which, you know, I can understand. But yeah, that cast is fairly sort of hemmed it. I mean, Anders Danielson Lai is in this movie, too. Sure, sure. But yeah, It's a fairly, it's hemmed in to those four major characters.

I think weapons, you have, like, degree of difficult, like, you understand the difficulty of that casting director's job for that. You're working with children. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In addition to the fact that so many of the second-tier roles were cast so well, Aldenar and Wright, Austin Abrams, Benedict Wong, the hot dogs, for God's sake. Well, this is where I get to sound like a dumb-dum, but, like, a lot of that, cast was turned over from the first, like, casting announcement.

Because, like, they're, like, and, like, very suddenly. So, do you consider that? Like, you lose performers, so you have to find other ones. Like, is that the casting director's role? Is that a producing role? Do they have to? Right. Right.

Yes. Well, yes. Surat showing up here, which Surrott did very well in all of the short lists. And then, you know, it ends up getting that sound nomination. and obviously international feature. But Surat has its own degree of difficulty. Hardly any name value. Like, Sergei Lopez is really the only actor in that

who had any kind of name value, certainly in the West. I'm not sure whether there are actors who are maybe better known in Spain or something like that. But then you also have the specific needs of the movie where you're talking about actors who are speaking multiple languages, there's actors with disabilities in there, and you have those crowd scenes, too, where you have to really create this world through just the people that are inhabiting the screen. You're in the desert. You don't really have, like, you can't do that through set design.

That is true. I think, and, you know, we tend to, I think with good reason, look at acting achievement as more than just what somebody, what's at the, exterior, what looks are. But I think it's incredibly valid to credit casting directors for casting people who, for no other attribute, have the right look for something. Right. You know what I mean? Because that's absolutely a part of the job. And sometimes you get nominated because you're casting a ton of actors who have a look, a lot of interesting faces in- Are you talking about Marty? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Well, Marty Supreme certainly feels like, like, casting that is fairly showy, right?

Like, look at who we got for this. We got Kevin O'Leary. We got that. You know what I mean? Like, Abel Ferrarra's freaky-ass-looking face. Like, you know. Well, and that's what... That is also a case where you're like, how much of this was like Joss Safdi, just saying

this is what we're doing? Of course. But I think it's all, you know, as with all the other crafts people, you're all working in conjunction with... in negotiation with the director, you know what I mean? That is true of, you know, everybody from the costumer to the cinematographer to whatever. So for as much as we can, you know, maybe ring our hands over, is this the casting director? Is this the director?

You could say, I mean, I'm sure there have been movies where the casting director has, you know, maybe overruled a craftsperson and made a decision here or there. So. If I can take myself to task. here. Do it. I would... Show yourself no mercy.

Really, really fuck yourself. My vote here would also be my vote for best picture. Well, yeah. So it's like, but I can justify both of them separately, but am I any better than the Academy if I'm going to accuse them of that? Because I would vote for the secret agent here. Oh, I mean, the secret agent is an incredible nominee. Like, and that is kind of everything, kind of everything you want out of

a casting, a casting achievement in this, particularly because you do have, I mean, you have somebody like Wagner Mora, but then you have, you know, supporting actors, some of whom have some name value, the late Udo Kier's in this movie and whatnot, but then you're casting, you know, people who have, you know, local notoriety in Brazil, people who are, you know, for all intents and purposes, fresh faces. You're casting young people and old people, people who have the look of somebody from the 70s, then people who have the look of somebody being very modern. You're casting... Bognomara, who has to do it all.

You're casting legs just to just be a running around leg, like that to me. You're casting sharks. Incredibly difficult, yeah. No, I loved that nomination, and I, you know, never really dared to hope that it could win. But like if it had, my goodness, what a great statement that would have been to be the first ever casting win to go step out of, you know, the expectation quite that extremely. I think another thing that got talked a lot about in this, because like if there's like the flashy thing about casting and this category, because one of the things that I think was really heartening of. about this new category being launched is how seriously the academy took it, how seriously the press took it,

and really got these people's names out there that we normally haven't had in this type of conversation, where it's like you have these like round tables or like multiple interviews of casting directors in the New York Times, you know, and making a big deal out of it in the actual ceremony too and taking the time, to say, this is what the task is, here's why it's a worthy Oscar category, et cetera. But then to loop back, I think the flashy thing, because, like, in best costumes, you might have, you know, the one costume everybody remembers. Or in cinematography, there's the shot that everybody remembers, and, like, how did they get

that shot for casting? It's finding the new person. It's, like, a lot of that can be young people, but it's, you know, getting someone who audiences aren't familiar with and it's just kind of launching them into the stratosphere like with Chase Infinity in one battle after another but I think you can also bucket Hamnet and sinners in this because I think some people were like well casting for Hamnet

and it's like but then you think about all those kids that's like finding those kids is not easy especially I think with what Jacoby Jupe has to do in that movie, you know, finding a kid who's not only going to be able to perform what's tasked of them, but has, you know, can actually, you know, withstand the psychological side of the job. And kids who perform with other kids, too, you know what I mean? So I'm just sort of, I'm poking around a little bit to see what last year's nominees in this

category have in the hopper for this year to see if we will perhaps get any, you know, repeat nominations. Obviously, Nina Gold, you can imagine, has a lot going on. Just a small handful. She's credited as casting director for Greta Gerwig's Narnia movie, for The Death of Robin Hood, for the, I believe, the upcoming Mike Lee movie for Clarissa, the Mrs. Dalloway. Um, an inflected movie that is soon to be premiering in directors Fortnite at can.

It can. Yep, exactly. Um, let's see. Jennifer Venditi has on Earth, we're briefly gorgeous, which, uh, is listed in pre-production,

so it won't be anytime soon. Um, nothing specifically coming out. Oh, well, was casting director for the moment, but I don't think the moment, the Charlie X-C-X movie, is going to be an Oscar nominee. Even Charlie X-X fans. Right. So maybe not that. Let's see. Nothing for Cassandra Kula Kuhondas specifically. Let's see. Gabrielle Dominguez has nothing specifically coming up. Francine Maisler also credited to Narnia, but also the social reckoning and Digger.

Interesting that both Francine Mazler and Nina Gold are credited to the Narnia movie. I guess one of the movies that big. Maybe they'll both win for Narnia. That'd be neat. So, yeah. I think the other thing about Francine Maisler for sinners is in terms of finding new talent and placing them in a role that launches them. You have to talk about Miles Katten in this way.

I mean, sinners, like, obviously as a casting achievement, that is a huge ensemble where everybody has to play a significant role. But that was definitely, like, one of the spotlights and was treated as a spotlight role throughout the season. Yeah. All right, maybe let's try and move beyond 2025 and kind of explore the space and... Well, BAFTA's been doing this since 2019. Which is, you know, Bafta being an Oscar bellwether more and more, that was probably the best indication that the Oscars would be moving this way, as if Bafta's starting to do it.

And they've avoided the thing where they're just awarding their best picture winner. They have yet to have any overlap with best casting and their best film prize. They did give it to Anora, which rad and cool, I wonder if that Oscar would, if that would have gone to Anora as well, being the best picture winner, but they didn't give Anora best film. So that's even the only best picture winner that they've won. So they're kind of doing it in a way you would hope to see. And with only presenting this since 2019, Francine Mazler has already racked up three nominations for marriage story, for Dune, and now for sinners. Nina Gold already has two, one of which is not Hamnet, was not nominated for Hamlet,

Hamnet was nominated for Conclave and the two popes. Avi Kaufman, who is definitely a name you see in credits quite a lot, has gotten two nominations for King Richard and for where is this second one? As I scroll around, sentimental value. could have been nominated this year for sentimental value. What does Huffy Kaufman have coming up this year? Is God Is, which is opening very soon. Have you heard anything on that movie?

I'm intrigued, but I was like, I feel like if it was... I mean, a summer horror movie? It's a horror movie, right? Sort of. Like a thriller? Yeah, horror thriller. That's all I need to know. Yeah.

It's also Kara Young, who's won multiple Tony's like back-to-back, too. So I'm like, oh, I can see her in a movie. Yeah. A starring role. That's cool. Thank you. Carrie Young is the one who is, Carrie Young's in proof right now, right? Yes.

Avi Kaufman, the man I love. Iris Sax is the man I love is one of Avi's. Obviously, about to win a dozen Oscars. Obviously. Well, the Katie Holmes movie. I can't wait to see that movie. The Katie Holmes movie Happy Hours, which is, I believe, premiering at Tribeca. Sequel to Happy Hour.

Obviously. Obviously. But yeah, so there's a lot. there's a lot swirling around this category. This is definitely a category that when people talked about things, you know, adding new categories to the Oscars, this was always kind of up there. It makes sense because it has to do with acting and that puts butts in the seats, anything where, you know, obviously the SAG Awards having an ensemble award, which

I believe only goes to the cast members, right? It only goes to the actors. But I think there are other, like the Independent Spirit Awards, when they do their ensemble award, which is the Altman, right? That's the one that they named after Altman. That goes to both the cast members and the casting director. And the director. And the director of the movie, got it.

So those are definitely two entities that, have been doing Ensemble Awards. I believe National Border Review has also, unsurprisingly, done ensemble. Has critics' choice done ensemble? I can't imagine. They've done ensemble, but not casting. Right. But I think in general, the ensemble awards, again, tend to be a really good way to get movie stars to your ceremony.

So the Oscars, of course, don't need, you know, to, to artificially lure any more stars to their ceremony. They can do that themselves. But... Of course, they have their own guild. The Arteos Awards. Yes. Which this year, not to stay just on 2025,

one battle after another, the Oscar winner, not nominated in any category. Because they do split it up into... Three different realms. Which I think is kind of interesting. They have big budget. They have studio or independent, which feels like it's sort of like your focus features, Fox Searchlight kind of realm. And then they have low budget.

And so their low budget winner this year was Sorry, Baby. But all other nominees were all that we love. Bob Trevino likes it. Griffin in Summer. Our – Rob. Robbed. Plain Close, which was another movie we both really liked.

And we strangers. So the studio or independent tier, rental family one, which, all right, y'all, but nominated were Eternity, Friendship, which I think is an incredibly good nomination. Oh, hi, which, okay, the wedding banquet, and then Twinliss, which you know how much I loved, Twinliss. And that was just a studio, right, studio or independent. Yeah, they do comedies and dramas. Separately, as do the big budget. So those were studio or independent comedy. Studio or independent drama, sentimental value won, beating out Blue Moon, Eleanor the Great, Nuremberg, Pillion, and Train Dreams.

And then Big Budget, the comedy winner was Jay Kelly, which was another Nina Gold, Douglas Abel and Nina Gold. And then Sinners won for Big Budget Drama. And that's where you get a lot of your, like, Big Budget Drama was also Begonia, F1, Frankenstein. Nine Hamnet Marty Supreme, big budget comedy was Wicked for Good, Wake Up Dead Man and the Phoenician scheme, which were two big, you know, very big casts, the naked gun, and materialists. I want to point out the first, they have not always branched these off into all of these tiers. They just had a single film category because, of course, they also give out awards for television. The first year they ever did this, Amadeus wins, which is a Best Picture winner, which might be like, well, here we go.

But Amadeus Masterpiece, you cannot question anything about Amadeus. But here's the other nominees that were in that lineup. I don't think any of these were Best Picture nominees. You'll have to correct me on The Natural. But it's 16 Candles, a soldier story, the Natural, and Adventures of Bukaru Bonsi. A Soldier's Story was a Best Picture nominee, they had ever seen that one.

Buckeroo Bonsai and 16 candles, definitely not. Yeah, that's a really interesting mix. And then through the years, they've had nominees like at close range, aliens, what else? Mystic Pizza. Sex Lies and Videotape, Miller's Crossing, Barton Fink, searching for Bobby Fisher, primal fear, that's a good one, William Shakespeare's Romeo plus Juliet.

Love it. What else? The Ice Storm Go, you know how much I love. love Doug Lyman's Go. Pleasantville, girl interrupted, finding Forrester. God bless you. Crazy, beautiful. That's an interesting.

That's an interesting one. Life is a house. This had Oscar Buzz movie. Life is a house. It's just, you know, some, some, an interesting mix of big Oscar stuff. And then like, you know. The type of thing that we want this category to exist for. Yes. Yes.

Totally. Absolutely. Totally. As with anything with Oscar, we hope for a lot more ambitious and versatile taste. But as it stands, I think we're in a decent spot. We could have been in a worse spot. We could have had, all respect to that, casting director, best casting nominee F1. Yes, yes.

Can I also say, just in the category of, casting for big budget drama, which then the history of that goes back all the way to when it was not separated. But anyway, Francine Mazler, 21 nominations, six wins. Baller. What are her wins for? What's she win for? Excellent question. She won for, let's see, the usual suspects, the people versus Larry Flint, 12 years of slays. Vice,

the trial of the Chicago 7 and sinners. All right. A lot of best picture nominees in there and near best picture nominees in the case of People versus Larry Flint. Do you want to go into the realm of

us changing history? Yes, of course. Before we do, I do want to bring attention to this Hollywood Reporter article where they polled the previous 15 years worth of winners from

casting directors, members of the casting society of what they would have picked to give that Oscar to. Nine of those 15 are Best Picture winners. Well, here we go. Yeah.

So, if you are of the opinion that this is going to end up just being a de facto best picture companion, in, then that's a point in your favor, I suppose. Yeah, it's an interesting piece. You can check it out.

We'll, you know, we can link to it. It's linked in the Tumblr. There you go. Social network, the help. Yeah, the ones that are not best picture winners are like pretty close. Pretty close. There is stones throw away at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, they were in the conversation. But like Birdman, Spotlight, Moonlight, three billboards, which again, stones throw. I mean, like, if a movie, like, moonlight, well, we can talk about it. We'll talk about some of what we have. I tried to avoid,

as we transition towards the, you know, us rewriting history, 100 Snub's style. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I wanted to avoid the best picture thing. And I will be doing that as we do all of these episodes. I don't want to necessarily just fall into the best picture trap. But like if we're talking about a best picture winner,

like here's the opposite of the conversation. Sometimes the best picture winner is the absolute right best casting choice and moonlight. Well, munstruct him. Moonlight is like the exact reason why. You have to cast a character at three different stages. We have to believe they're all the same person. That also goes back to performance, but like some of that is a casting choice as well. None of those people were name actors. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I tried to select some movies that maybe nodded towards a different, a few different aspects of what I, you know, want to prize in the casting award. I tried to do that too. And I think when we, talk about them, it'll give us opportunities to talk about those things and why we want that to be considered by the Academy members who are definitely not listening to us when they pick this.

Before we do that, Ken, we think of some movies that might not have been this head Oscar buzz movies if the Academy had dared to nominate them. Yeah, I thought of a handful. And some of these are... When you talk about a movie that had zero nominations and if it's only, if it's sole nomination was going to be casting, you kind of would... This will make a lot more sense with the other categories we're doing in this one. Casting seems a little tougher for that. It does, but also, so it's like what, you know, what kind of heavy lifting would have needed to be done? So I'm thinking certain movies with like really big starry casts, so something like Zodiac,

even though I know that like the larger story of Zodiac was just that it was like not a player that award season. But were there a casting award, perhaps there might have been some, you know, momentum for a movie with, you know, Jake Gyllenhaal, Robert Downey Jr., Mark Ruffalo. But this is a movie that like just goes so deep in terms of every 30 minutes there's another pair of cops, you know what I mean, who show up who are. investigating from another city in northern California. And, you know, all of a sudden here's John Carroll Lynch and here's Clea Duval and here's what's his name, the guy who voices Roger Rabbit. Oh, what the hell is his name? Shit.

I'm not going to be able to think of it. I don't have my voice acting notes and I don't want to spoil the episode. I do have his name written down somewhere. It's not saying that necessarily. I picked it. Hold on. I don't want to get this wrong. Charles Fleischer. I said it's not Fleischman. It's Fleischer. Charles Fleischer. Ione Sky is showing up as the poor terrified woman in the car. So I think that definitely feels like this had Oscar Buzz movie that could have qualified. I think something like Love Actually, where the selling point is, look at this

huge ensemble full of all of these British stars. I think that definitely could have been a contender. I also... Do you agree of difficulty? You're doing all different ages. You're doing Americans as well. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, exactly. And then I think of something like the station agent, which was a SAG ensemble nominee.

And, you know, if the love for that cast was, you know, was so good there, obviously, even, you know, this was a time when folks like Bobby Connavali, and even Patricia Clarkson were not as well-known. Michelle Williams, you know, not as well-known. Obviously, Peter Dinklage is such a star in that movie, and I believe that was the first time most people had really seen him in something. I don't think he had anything bigger that preceded that. So those were three that I kind of just sort of picked out.

Did you have anything in mind? Well, you mentioned Love, actually. There was two movies that, like, immediately came. to mind and Love actually was one of them. The other one is Lee Daniels the butler. Another movie that I think was conceivably in the like 6th to 10th place

in multiple categories that year. Yep, yep, yep. It's not, like that is something where you could be like, well, that's the case of most casting because you're talking about several generations of stars, including some who were not,

who were left on the cutting room floor, like Robin Williams. Wait, is Robin Williams in that movie? He's Eisenhower. Yep, he's Eisenhower. But he got, no, he's like, he's in it. He's in it. But isn't there someone who played a president and didn't make the final cut?

Anyway. Anyway. But also just like, yeah, you're casting to play a lot of real people. And you're, you know, you're casting a family in that movie. A family you have to believe that's a family in part. and like they'll age throughout the story as well. You're thinking of Melissa Leo, who was cast as Mamie Eisenhower, who did not end up showing up in the main, yes, yes, yes.

Another one that I thought of, go with me here. But for a movie, like, that might not have been respected for other categories. I do wonder about something like an ensemble for Mamma Mia, the casting job on the original Mamma Mia. again, a certain degree of difficulty. You're casting people who could sing. You don't ultimately cast people who can sing. But your ensemble can sing and dance.

You're casting people who are willing to sing. But you've got all of those younger, you know, actors and actresses in the Vuley Vos scene and, you know, all of Amanda Seifred's, you know, bridesmaids and whatnot. And all those boys who can dance in flippers on the beach and whatnot, you know, it's all happening. Mm-hmm.

So let's move in. a hundred snub style towards movies that we would give a casting Oscar to throughout movie history, listener, go with us on this one. I think one of the tricky things when we do these like, you know, rewriting history, wishful thinking type of things. We, some, especially for something like casting, the casting director of certain movies

would have been uncredited at the time or the information may not be available. For some of these, like, did our best, did the due diligence, and couldn't find a name. And also, you're talking, if you go into certain parts of, like, Hollywood history, you're talking about the studio systems and things were under certain people had contracts and such that maybe it's subject to some of that.

But, like, we're just saying what we think would have been worthy Oscar casting wins. Exactly. So we each chose five. Yes, we each chose five. And yeah, I also sort of went into a little bit, well, I wanted to talk about sort of the casting directors to the degree that we can, you know, talk about maybe some of their other credits, why, you know, their careers and stuff like that. So should we just go in the order that we have them here in the rundown? Yeah, absolutely.

Why don't she kick us off? My first pick was a Best Picture nominee in its year and had a big old cast. So I do feel like were there a casting award for the 1976 Academy Awards? This would definitely have been kind of a shoe-in. I went with Alan Pakula's All the President's Men. This is another one where obviously like Hoffman and Redford, you're sort of like top line stars. But this is a movie that goes about 20 deep, even in just like the memorable cast members, you know. Robards, I would imagine also probably was, you know, more of a producer's, directors, you know, kind of a decision.

But like, Oscar nominee, Jane Alexander for essentially just like one scene. Jack Warden, Hal Holbrook, Ned Beatty, the, what you call it, Martin Balsam, Psycho's Own Martin Balsam showing up, you know, as just sort of like a work-a-day newspaper guy or whatever. F. Marie Abraham's in this movie, Lindsay Krauss, Meredith Baxter. It's just everywhere you turn, there was a really interesting casting choice, or a really interesting actor. And for a movie like this, where it's essentially, you know, it's obviously sort of, you know, your ultimate shoe leather movie.

They're putting together, you know, bit by bit, this case. You've got to cast the Watergate, you know, folks correctly, including Future Sopranos, you know, Uncle Junior on the Sopranos, Dominic Chiaz. It's just, it's showy in its way. But it's, you don't really feel like you're being stunt cast. You know what I mean? You're not being inundated with stunt casting or whatever. I saw the back half of this movie on TV fairly recently.

And it's just like, man, that's a satisfying movie. It just really, it really hits. Are you and all the presidentsmen partisan? Yes, though. I haven't seen it in a long time. I think one of the other things about the casting test, at that movie is you are, as much as it is this kind of like straight down the middle, journalistic thriller, you are building a world when you're assembling those actors.

Like, you know, you have to create this believable space where all of these people are journalists and can play that certain type. But it's also, you know, it's like a movie movie, you know, where there's like real meat potatoes to this thing where you have to find that balance between believability and like interest and intrigue. That Washington Post Newsroom is like a living organism. You know what I mean? Really.

And again, you talk about having to cast people who have the right look for it. But you're right, too. You are casting, you know, a world full of these kind of Washington insiders, but also people who are like never would have thought they would end up in a position of being a Washington insider. You know what I mean? I go back to the Jane Alexander performance, who was just sort of like a person who had a job, who all of a sudden now is in the position of being like this crucial cog in this huge conspiracy and this huge, you know, a thing that could take down the president. and there are a good half dozen, you know, actors who are in that position in the movie, actors sort of like big and small.

And I don't know, I just find it incredibly just really impressive. It's one of those things you take for granted maybe as a moviegoer or a person who loves movies is like even when you're telling a real story that like we live through contemporaneously. even though neither of us lived through that, but the audience for that movie did, you still have to believe the movie that you're watching, which is why we have problems with all of these biopics where it's just like, well, this is bullshit. This is like, you know,

this isn't, I don't believe the world as presented by this film, you know, and like that is, some of that does go to casting. Yeah. Alan Shane, who was casting director for this movie, doesn't have a ton of film credits, actually. But of that handful of credits, Catch 22, 1970s Catch 22, which was Mike Nichols film based on the Joseph Heller novel.

That's a wild-ass cast. And you know what I mean? And I'm sure this, you know, a lot of, I mean, Mike Nichols never doesn't have an amazing cast. But like, this is a cast that goes from, you know, Alan Arkin to Art Garfunkel to Bob Newhart to Martin Sheen, Orson Wells is in this movie. Bob Balabin's in this movie. Norman Fell from a fucking, you know, Mr. Roper from Threys Company, Austin Pendleton. Like, it is a Anthony Perkins is in this movie, Paul Apprentice. that is a real for as much as that movie was kind of that was kind of a disappointment right as I recall that was a

I mean God that's a this had Oscar buzz movie we could probably do if we ever wanted to dip back into the 70s we could do catch 22 but what other movies did Alan Shane do lovers and other strangers which was Diane Keaton's film debut so you have to imagine that Alan Shane probably dines out on that one a little a little bit bit throughout his career. Sparkle, I thought, was another interesting one. Hell yeah. The 1970s Sparkle. If that film didn't discover Irene Kara, then probably came damn close. So a real interesting career for Alan Shane and should have been an Oscar nominee for all the presidents men. All right, what is your first? My first, I am allowing myself to have a best pick one best picture winner and to me when I'm thinking about

the idea of finding someone who we've never seen before that perfectly fits a role I think one of the first things that come to mind is the best years of our lives listeners will know this is one of my faves couldn't mention it in something like

100 snubs because it's the best picture winner the best years of our lives if you have it seen it. It's one of William Wiler's Oscar wins. How many Oscars did William Wiler win three? I think it's just the two. This is his masterpiece he makes after World War II. Go watch Five came back

everyone. And you know, it's dealing with a post war America and you know, specifically PTSD and just readjustment to everyday life for

World War II veterans. PTSD and a time long before we were talking about PTSD. Yeah. You know, like decades before it would be like mainstream to talk about this in a way that it's like we just talk openly about it now. And even still, it feels like it's a taboo. Like we're not supposed to talk about it.

Nobody knows what to, you know, how to help these, you know, former service people. And Howard or Harold Russell was a non-actor. He was a veteran. He lost both of his hands in World War II, and he plays a character that is disabled in this way, and he has to go through the transition, and he has, you know, he has his sweetheart at home, and they have to adjust to how they're going to communicate about his disability. And I certainly don't want to spoil the movie for anyone who hasn't seen it. It is a classic. You do have to go and see it. I am ordering you to go watch that movie. that is I think one of the more like significant casting coups I think in the history of movies that you know you're talking about a very specific character with very specific acting needs and he gives a great performance and he won supporting actor and they also gave him an honorary Oscar that year just for you know the visibility of disabled veterans that had never been seen in movies before certainly not in a mainstream narrative movie.

That is significant, I think, in terms of a piece of casting, but it is also a large ensemble of, you know, Oscar-winning actors, both Frederick Mark and Teresa Wright had won their Oscars already. And this would be Frederick March's second Oscar. Frederick March, Oscar winner for a horror movie. for Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think also under-recognized actors, you know,

Murnaloy, who's incredible in this movie. I fucking love her in that. Never was nominated for an Oscar. I know. You know, so it's like, it's a specific milieu. We are asked to believe that these three men who serve together also live in the same town. So it's like you're also casting, you know, Norman Rockwell's America

In this movie It is a large ensemble But you're also casting a believable family There's romance to it So you have to like believe a love story as well Between Teresa Wright and Dana Andrews Dana Andrews Hot, you know, you gotta cast a hottie in this movie

I was wrong by the way Wiler did win three Oscars You were right, Mrs. Men of her best years of our lives And Ben Her There you go Yeah I think there's a lot of angles into, I mean, like, this is not just me queening out over a movie that I love.

I do think specifically some of the things that make this a uniquely difficult movie to cast would be worth recognizing. And again, as I said about Harold Russell, you know, if we're talking, if like the big showy thing of casting is having the person in the movie. And certainly, like, maybe Weiler cast him specifically. At this point, I'm just, like, kind of who cares?

I think that's one of the more significant examples of when we might have an Oscar history seen that go recognized. I think that's right. What are your thoughts on this movie? What do you think about that choice? I love this movie. The first time I

watched it was for the screen drafts that you and Katie and I did on best directors Best Picture follow-ups. This was William Weiler's film directly after he won the Oscar for Mrs. Minimer. So we really was just like, all right, let's do it again. Blown away.

You can tell that it's incredibly personal, too, because William Weiler, like I mentioned with Go Watch Five Came Back, he's one of the Hollywood directors who were recruited by, you know, the American military forces to go and document the war. So he was experiencing this firsthand. And it's a movie that in 1946 isn't doing, you know, isn't all, you know, ra-rah, you know, parades and whatever for. This is a movie that, you know, is telling a very real story and a very sort of multifaceted story about these folks coming back from the war.

Really, really fantastic stuff. is this like, you know, early mid-century type of, not even nostalgia, but sentimentalism. It is also maybe more progressive in terms of having these conversations than movies are today. It's amazing watching that movie, how not dated it feels. Obviously, it's like it's inescapable that it is, of course, a movie made in the 1940s. But it does not feel in any way sort of dusty or creaky or anything like that. Um, one of my, what, I always say that, like, I love a good project because it'll force my hand and making me sort of like shore up my, you know, deficiencies in film history. And like, that's one of the all time great examples of, um, you know, you think you're, you're, you're watching a movie that's going to be eating your vegetables and you're just like, by the end, I'm texting you and Katie fearously being like, this movie's so good. Yeah. Um, I'm going.

for my next one, fairly into a different realm. This is such a cool call. This is a cool call. Well, this exercise that we're doing, one of the advantages of doing it many, many, many years later is we can sort of look back and be like, man, like that movie really called it. That movie really nailed it in terms of casting a lot of, you know, future stars of tomorrow. And so I see. singled out, 1983's The Outsiders, Francis Ford Coppola's The Outsiders, adaptation of the S. E. Hinton novel that we all read in junior high, or at least, you know, was on everybody's school reading list in those years. Janet Herschinson is the casting director for that movie. She spent most of her career working in tandem with another casting director named Jane Jenkins.

But Herschinson's credits include movies. I mean, like, this is just a real murderer's right. Clue, Stand By Me, Mystic Pizza, which, you know, oh, by the way, you know, kind of discovers Julia Roberts. Parenthood, which the first time probably anybody had seen Joaquin Phoenix, but also, you know, a young Keanu Reeves. Home Alone, a few good men, a few good men, which everybody who watches a few good men comes away and is like, Noah Wiley's in that movie, Cuba Getting Juniors in that movie. Apollo 13, the American President, which we just did for Patreon, Harry Potter and the Sorcer Stone being the casting. director on, you know, the movie that cast Daniel Radcliffe as Harry Potter. Like, talk about a feather in your camp.

Casino Royale. 15 nominations and three wins from the Casting Society of America for Janet Hirshundson. Whoa, her wins. Shit, I didn't write this down. Hold on a second. Platoon. Platoon is one of them. Moonstruck, aforementioned Moonstruck, and...

Hold on. Home Alone. Yeah, Home Alone. Janet, cornering the market on casting children. Casting children, I'm saying. So with The Outsiders, obviously. And I guess Chris Columbus. Yes.

The outsiders is kind of notorious. Notorious sort of feels the negative coded. Early film featuring the likes of Tom Cruise and Rob Loe and Emilio Estavez and Patrick Swayze and Matt Dillon and sort of everybody who would end up populating the casts full of young actors. Diane Lane's in that movie. Ralph Machio, see Thomas Howell playing a pony boy, sort of the ironic, you know, the one who had the least career outside of this movie gets the lead, of course. I would also say, you know, someone who had a very short movie career,

but no less interesting. Tom Cruise's original teeth. I'll say Tom Cruise's original teeth. Man, they were front and center, literally. They were front. They were close to center. They weren't quite, you know. Also, Sophia Coppola as little girl.

Little girl. Little girl. Don't you cast Sophia Coppola, little girl. But like, I think if you, if this was more of it, if Janet Hershenson doesn't have the career that follows, you can maybe look at the outsiders

and be like, wow, talk about your all-time sort of like, you know, lottery tickets, right? You know, how fortunate that all the people you cast in this movie were end up really good. But it's like, no, this wasn't an accident. Like, you know, she knows what she's doing. And you're casting

this beloved novel, and you're casting, I mean, casting Hollywood stars to play members of this sort of like rough and tumble gang, right? They all, like, they're no adult supervision. They're all living together in a house where the oldest one is in charge and all this sort of stuff. And you're getting the likes of Tom Cruise and Patrick Swayze and Rob Loe to, you know, play these greasers or whatever.

it's a good bit, it's a, it's a good job. And the fact that, you know, she went on to cast all these other movies for these very major directors and these very major productions just sort of kind of says it all about, you know, the accomplishment there. So while the outsiders in 1983 probably would have had a hard time cracking, a. imagined lineup of best casting, I think certainly we can, in retrospect, give it up to a movie like this.

I love that pick. All right. Thank you. Smart and cool. And correct. Well, all the things that I am. My next one, again, unfortunately,

someone I couldn't find an official casting director, and you could be one of those, it could be another one of those situations where it's like, it goes back to a director because this is a film that several of these stars would star in multiple movies from this director. That's Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. This is obviously a very legendary movie.

This is a very genre-setting movie, and that's one of the reasons why I thought about it in terms of casting, because what feels like the major accomplishment here is, like, character types and casting to that. Like, you know, we talk about, casting in relationship to acting, but this was one that I kind of thought about in connection to writing, you know, because you have these distinct characters and you have these distinct types in this like sprawling epic of a movie. Yeah. But you also have these really distinct performance. Obviously like Tashira Mufune is like the legend, the one that everybody talks about. Kurosawa would also make a lot of movies. with like Takashi Shimura, for example.

But when you think of something today like sinners, where it's like, okay, you have to care about like 10 characters specifically, and you want the audience to build a relationship with each of these characters and you have to divide your time to those characters, you have to cast things really, really well. And this was at least the first example of something I could think of like that, where you have the difficulty if you have to

as you have to have these people who as an audience member we can care about and they all have to be doing something very different but this is one that in doing that kind of sets the mold

for that type of movie that type of ensemble movie I mean like who do I even want to single out I love Minoru Chiaki maybe the most in this movie. But, like, you know, as is the case

with a lot of Kurosawa movies, Tashira Mufune is, like, the legendary star. But, like, by the mold of this movie, you know, nobody really fully takes the spotlight away from everybody. It's always kind of in relationship. So you're also casting to chemistry. And, of course, you can say that's acting,

that's directing, that's writing. But, you know, I think this is, this was a fun casting one that I wanted to pull out in terms of, you know, building an ensemble. Doing the thing that Ocean's Eleven does so well, but I wanted an earlier example. This movie was nominated for two Oscars for its art direction and for its costume design. I guess there were no real ensemble awards around that time for this to get Kurosawa won the Silver Lion at Venice that year, Bafta nominations for Best Film and Best Foreign Actor, two nominations for Best Foreign Actor for Mufune and Shemura. Have you seen this movie before? I here's where I You mean to tell me you didn't find four hours to carve out of your day

I'm sorry I'm sorry You know as as I often say it is on the list As is Roshaman as is Ron Like I have a Kurosawa deficit That I need to make up in my life Oh well you will have a lot of fun when you do fill that up Come to Ohio We're good

Okay we'll do a Kurosawa marathon Doing a Kurosawa this month which was also why this was kind of top of mind. But, I mean, I only asked that question to set myself up for the point that I'm making. When you watch this movie, you're just like, oh, so this is it. This is the thing that set the moles for all of movie history. This is what all of these other movies have been getting at. This is, you know, the er text of all of everything.

Great, got it. How many years after this movie did The Magnific. efficient seven come? I believe... It wasn't too long after, right? Let me look it up. I thought it was less than a decade. Yeah, I thought so true.

Yeah, five years. Five years. Yeah, yeah. Well, good movie. That's Seven Samurai. No, this is a really interesting pick. What was the best picture winner in 1954? Well, did it hit the States in 54?

What was... Oh, well, let's see. It's Oscar year was... the around the world in 80 days Oscars I think we can all agree Seven Samurai

would have been a better Best Picture winner The other nominees That year friendly persuasion Giant The King and I The Ten Commandments You know

Honestly Ten Commandments A man Would have been a good Casting nomination That is You got all yeah To fill out that X or alone

Fill out that cast Instead we need an actress to be horny. There could be only one. We need several actresses to be horny, actually. But we need one to be so... Biblically. Literally biblically horny. Yeah. That she can't function.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. What's your next one? Likely place for me to go. 1991's... Yeah. As I was assembling my list, I was like, well... Obviously. No sense in me considering picking this.

Yeah. Yeah. Oliver Stone's 1991 masterpiece piece, JFK. One of my very favorite films of all time, I've seen it so many times when I'm feeling particularly blocked at work, and I need to just take 20 minutes to just watch something on YouTube. I will come up. I will come up with a clip. Yeah, if I just look up clips from JFK. It's usually Lori Metcalf spinning out some exposition about Lee Harvey Oswald. It does the Smoking. Everybody's smoking. Everybody's smoking in this movie. No, the thing about JFK, and this is again, you know, the broken record me, there are major acting legends in this movie and how many of them are in this movie because like Oliver Stone called in a favor, we, you know, we don't know. But aside from Kevin Costner in the film's lead role, this movie is populated. by folks showing up for like a handful of scenes or as like one of ten people around a, you know, a kitchen table, you know, or, you know, in a, in a room in a, in a law office or whatever. it's just an incredible patchwork of actors who can, you know, sort of similar to all the president's men, who can really nail it.

When you're going from Jack Lemon and Walter Mathau and Donald Sutherland to like John Candy picking up, you know, a scene as a laying-in-it-on-thick New Orleans, bail bondsman type, Sally Kirkland showing up at the very beginning of this movie to lie in a hospital bed and be like, they're going to kill Kennedy. Vincent DiNofrio, Lillia Divinovich, I don't want to spend so much of this, you know,

just sort of like rattling off the names, but like even just like Garrison's little legal team, I mentioned Lori Metcalf. So it's Lori Metcalf, J.O. Sanders, Michael Rooker, Wayne Knight, aka Newman.

from Seinfeld. And, like, that is a real, there's some character among those folks. But, like, casting Brian Doyle Murray as Jack Ruby,

like, these are, these are unusual choices. And then making the uncanny decision to cast Gary Oldman as Oswald is also just like, oh, when you see how much he, like, resembles him in the way that the movie has him

sort of made up, it's it's a bunch of casting choices that run the gamut from really plays into somebody's type to runs really counter to their type and I find that to be really thrilling and you know accuse me of doing most casting if you must but I couldn't leave this off you're allowed to do you're allowed to do it I couldn't leave it off I couldn't not do it I love this movie so much. When was the last time you saw JFK? Oh, maybe during COVID.

Again, where am I finding the four hours to carve out of my day? Yeah. I mean, like... This was a classic double VHS that I always... I knew exactly when... It's sort of like the Titanic thing. You know exactly when the first tape ends and where the second one begins. I mean, you also only have your first time watching JFK once, where it's like...

The first time I watched JFK, it's just like, I felt my, like, skull shoot out of the back of my head. And then when you watch it again, like, I know you love it. I know it's like one of your favorite. You watch it again, and you're like, well, this thing, that thing, this thing and that thing, this thing and that thing. But, like, what hits about JFK is just, like, kind of its own thing. Again, it's just like, you know, it is movie Adderall. It is, and, like, casting specifically. sometimes most casting

is like, yeah, there's most casting. And then there's most cast. Yeah. And then he went and did it again when he made Nixon was the other thing, because Nixon is cast very similarly. Even Nixon is like chill compared to JFK. Yeah. You know, I remember

like a JFK being one of the first things that it's like, you see all of the names on a poster and you're like, oh, that movie's like a real movie. But like, there's maybe never been more names on a poster than for JFK? Speaking of names on a poster, so this movie had three credited casting directors. Risa Braman Garcia, Billy Hopkins, and Heidi Levitt. Risa Bramman Garcia.

Simply because one person could not do all that. Yeah, it's like Santa Claus couldn't cover that many houses in one night. Like, one casting director could not wrangle that many actors. Are you spreading a conspiracy that there are multiple Santas? That's my, yes, and they all had a role in killing Kennedy. Yeah. So Risa Brown and Garcia actually directed...

Santa killed JFK, you heard it in your first. Honestly, a lot of it starts to make sense when you start to figure out shot from a rooftop, who's comfortable perching on a rooftop, I'm just saying. Yeah, up, they're literally the song, Up on a rooftop. Santa shot JFK. Click, click, click, you know.

We're getting put. Up on a rooftop, brat, brat, brat, We're getting put on a list, and it's the naughty list. Anyway, Risa Bram and Garcia directed my... One of my sort of favorite, is it good, is it bad movies, 200 cigarettes, which ensemble cast like a motherfucker. That is a movie that is directed by a casting director. You know what I mean?

Like, you can tell. But these three people have a ton of really interesting. They've worked with each other in different alignments. Garcia and Hopkins together did casting for Desperately Seeking Susan. Something Wild, Wall Street, at close range, fatal attraction, true romance. Garcia and Heidi Levitt together did the casting for The Joy Luck Club. Garcia solo did Inventing the Abbot's Twister. I mean, talk about populating a movie with just an ensemble full of freaks.

Like, that's Twister. My Beloved Sneakers. Billy Hopkins did casting for two Wong Fu Thanks for Everything, Lee Newman, with Carrie Barden and Suzanne Smith Crowley, and also The Last Disco with Carrie Barden and Suzanne Smith Crowley. It's just, I love, now that these folks are going to be Oscar nominees going forward, I'm going to have a real good time going through and, like, creating little hierarchies or little, you know, taxonomies of casting directors and sort of like grouping them all together and being like, ah, I see it. I see the tendencies.

I see, you know, what we're going for here. So, yeah, credit to those three intrepid casting directors for bringing me Joe Pesci with some weird-assed-on eyebrows, you know, talking about it's a riddle wrapped in an enigma. The fact that that was the origin story for the, it's a riddle wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in a, you know, wrapped in a whatever is so good. to mention top Ely Jones. Whig. I mean, that was the original Katie Perry. Two and pop or sniff and blow.

Painting himself in gold and, you know, walking Joe Pesci around the mansion like a dog. Catch me on a Tuesday. That was the very first horse meat disco. Weirdly enough, Joe Pesci still shows up to horse meat disco. Every year.

It's just like looking for someone to walk him. Every year. It's never the same as the first time, but every year he goes back, hoping to recapture that magic. Joe Pesci doing Popper. Stop thinking about Joe Pesci doing Popper. Chris, what is your next film that you're selecting? Listen, you're allowed to make the obvious choice that even the listeners know you're absolutely going to make. You're also allowed to do most casting if you want to, because I'm also allowed to do those things, and this is where I get to talk about Nashville for a few minutes.

Hell yeah. What the hell are you talking about? We would be doing this and I wouldn't be like, well, Nashville, obviously. I mean, again, most casting, like 12 million people are in this movie. The entire city of Nashville. The entire city of Nashville. The entire planet of Nashville, as this movie would tell you. Listen, Altman has many masterpieces.

this is like the this is the Everest of Altman movies and everybody not only has to like have their little minute where they get to like do something unforgettable. Yeah. But also like you're having all of these players,

some of whom had already worked with Altman, some of whom would continue to work with Altman. But like when you have a director who works in a very specific way, you're also going to have to cast actors who can, you know, produce, for lack of a better, like acting is a resource or something, like it's a natural replenishable resource. Sure. They have to be able to live in that world that the director is creating. And it's like, is Nashville, you know, also at an ensemble prize?

Maybe. Maybe this is the example where sometimes best casting. can also be a movie that wins best ensemble. Sure. Because the amount of specificity for all of these actors ensure some of those like characters could have been developed, you know, through Altman's methods, you know, this isn't necessarily a movie. I think we talk about for its script.

You talk about it for its directing and its performances and music as well. But, I mean, come on. You know, the, also the idea of, well, that's the person, to do that. Like, Geraldine Chaplin, oblivious, uh,

journalism. I love her so much. Journalists, music journalist who's like, uh, just like kind of floating above it and has to be funny because of how ridiculous her presence is there. You cast Geraldine Chaplin,

obviously, you know, uh, uh, you know, Ronnie Blakely is just like one of those crazy performances that just kind of like materializes out of the earth. How do you know that Ronnie Blakely?

can do that performance, how do you know that, you know, X, Y, and C, that Lily Tomlin, you know, can be in the room. Sitting at a table. Yeah, that you can have a room full of people watching a guy sing in every person in that room, even the heterosexual men, want to have sex with that man. And that the person who's giving the performance that we're going to zero in on is Lily Tomlin. And knowing that that's the performer for that role. You know, like, it's impossible to talk about these casting choices without talking about the moments that they produce in the movie. Yep. But, you know, needless to say, much like you were saying with JFK, it's just like it's banger after banger after banger after bang.

It really is. It sure is it most casting, sure is it obvious that I'm going to come on here and be like Nashville, yes, but like it's Nashville, come on. If the casting award had been around for all of this time, do you think, Ned Bady would have a second Oscar? Yes, but do you think Ned Bady would hold the record for being in most nominated casting, you know, in the most movies nominated for casting? Because this is the second time we've mentioned a movie with Ned Bady in it after all the president's men. Surely Network would have been nominated and, you know, how many others. That would have been, that would be an interesting bit of, you know, trivia. You know, I love my trivia. No,

Nashville's a perfect, a perfect choice here. Do we not know the casting director, even as recently as the 70s? I didn't see anyone credited. Maybe I'll look again on IMD. Maybe they all just sort of showed up that day. Maybe they were just like, Robert Altman's shooting a movie, folks, just gather around. And they all arrived. Again, this is a case where it could just be like, Robert Altman just gets who he wants.

You know, and this, I think, is a case. where maybe sometimes that is an okay call. Sure, yeah. I mean, when it works, it works, for sure. Maybe I am being the devil's advocate here where it's like, well, just because it's not a worthy casting Oscar if it's, you know, seen as director's choices. Sure, sure, sure.

The other, this is that famous year, Paul Thomas Anderson cited it in his acceptance speech, right? This is the great 1975 lineup. Do you feel like all five of those movies end up in a casting? Is this a year where casting goes five for five with Best Picture?

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest certainly would be a major contender. You're populating that entire, you know, that entire hospital. Jaws maybe doesn't. What are your other? Barry Lyndon definitely probably won't. Barry Lyndon does.

Yes, for sure. And then what's your fifth? Dog Day. Dog Day, I think, definitely does. Dog Day does. I'm just being alliterative today. Jaws might be the one that maybe doesn't, even though you do have, I mean, that scene that takes place when the mayor is briefing the press,

you would have to give an award for casting that skeptical woman with the glasses, who's everybody's favorite character. So maybe Jaws does round it out there. I can't find flaw with any of those. This could also be a time where you do, if like just looking for something that replaces jaws, obviously shampoo could be an option. Who are you going to cast to say the F slur?

Only Kerry Fisher. I do also wonder because Fellini was respected enough by the Academy, could you do something like Amercord? I never know if I'm saying that, pronouncing that may be right. Amark or an Amicord? I am not a time. Italian. That's a huge ensemble. That's like ranges in age. There's the lady with the giant boobs.

Naturally, yes. Amber Cards awesome. I've never seen it. I'm going to, at some point. Okay. What's your next movie? Well, as I said, I wanted to try and highlight sort of different aspects of what I, the kinds of things I would value in a casting director's achievement, one of which is just real entertaining extras, and not extras, but sort of just like, you know, ensemble members, people who really make a memorable impact

from small roles when we were on the phone with the folks from the Academy this past year, and they were describing, you know, you know, we want to recognize those movies where you walk out of it and you were like, who was that person or those people who you've never seen before? And the very first movie I always think of in this respect is David O. Russell's The Fighter for whoever cast those goddamn sisters of Mickey Warren and Dickie Eckland, that gang of MTV Girls. MTV Girls.

No, they hate the MTV Girls. They're not MTV girls. America runs on Duncan. Those chicks run on Duncan, and they are running Amy Adams out of town is what they're doing in that movie. Casting on the fighter, Sheila Jaffe and Angela Perry, Sheila Jaffe. If Sheila Jaffe's only credits were that she was casting director, her and Georgianne Walker, walking on The Sopranos, what I mean, like, that's enough, right?

That puts you into the Hollywood Hall of Fame. Like, just a lot of movies from the 90s that were like Indies that, you know, cast a lot of younger actors who went on to become something. Take a look at the cast list for the daytrippers sometime. Take a look at the cast list for Basquiat, you know, where Jeffrey Wright plays. But I'm a cheerleader, one of my favorite undervalued at the time queer movies that, you know, Melanie Linsky's in that and Clea Duval and. and oh, who the hell else is in that movie?

It's just like there's so many people. Obviously, Natasha Leon is the main star of that movie. Rupal, obviously, Kathy Moriarty. During her, I'm Kathy Moriarty. I'm going to terrorize children phase that she went through for like about 10 years. Anyway, Sheila Jaffe, Angela Perry, the fighter. So, yes, you have, I want to get,

I want to get their names right, so hold on. Jenna Lamia, Bianca Hunter, Erica McDermott, Kate O'Brien, and I think those are all the sisters. I think it's just the four of them. Are there five of them? Genuinely can't remember. Anyway, they all just try to beat the shit out of Charlene.

Poor Charlene played by Amy Adams. This is, you know, your classic. you are casting for local color, right? You are casting to set the mood, to set, you know, to enhance setting. But the fighter also, you know, you've got all those folks in the, you know, in the boxing gym, you know, Jack McGee and all these, you know, other folks. I think David O. Russell movies tend to be very impressive on a casting level, whether they are big starry ensembles like I Heart Huckabees and, and, um,

American hustle and whatnot. But I think in general, very strong. You go back to, fuck, what's the title of the Ben Stiller movie? Flirting with disaster? No,

flirting with disaster. Oh. Which obviously, you know, people knew who Lily Tomlin and Alonald and Mary Tyler Moore and, you know, George Siegel were back then.

But you are, that is very unexpected. casting to cast in those roles, right? Obviously, I imagine working with David O. Russell closely can't be easy. And so perhaps degree of difficulty points for Sheila, Jaffe and Angela Perry. For collaboration. Hazard pay and whatnot, maybe. I don't know. So, and obviously the fighter is the best picture nominee from its year as well.

So I think that to me would be a strong contender for that year. It sounds like I'm just doing this for the lulls, but it really isn't. Like I genuinely think the casting for those sisters was brilliant work. Like those are women who, within five seconds, they open their mouths and you understand what the score is and you understand what's going on. And they absolutely nail it. And that is a casting coup right there. Am I wrong? I love it.

I did have a chuckle when I saw that in our outline. I was like, what a, bless you for making that pick. That's so good. Well, but also, like, okay, so here's the thing. Like, to relate it back to today and one battle after another winning, and like we said this and probably said it on Mike, you know, that thing wins, if you pick, if that's your pick for cast. It's not just because it's the best picture winner.

It's not just because of the ensemble. It's not because it's the most nominated. But when you're thinking about the casting choices for that movie, you're thinking about the medical workers in that movie. You're thinking about the teens in that movie. Like all of those people who you've never seen before in a movie and give the exact perfect performance for those scenes, the choice to find those people who have such an impact on their scenes,

even if they're just these minor characters. Totally. And that's true of something like the fighter with those sisters. Angela Perry, I should mention, we spoke about the Casting Society of America Awards, the RTOS Awards,

was on the casting team that won for Sorry Baby just this past year has been nominated. A bunch of times has won for the holdovers, has won for Coda, has won for Knives Out. nominated for a bunch of the other David O. Russell movies, Joy and American Hustle among them. So, again, I'm formulating this little, you know, all-encompassing theory about now casting directors. Give me a couple of years, and I will be the world's foremost expert in the casting directors of Hollywood.

All you had to do was give him an award, and I would be like, on it, sis. Like, let's go, let's do this. All right, what is your next one? I mean, my next one, I think, is maybe one of the obvious examples when we talk about, like, great casting work that, you know, just an example of, like, why this should be an academy category. And, like, maybe I'm a little academy museum brained here because, like, this felt like a significant portion. We didn't talk yet about the casting room at the Academy Museum. Talk all about it, please. Well, when I was there this year, it wasn't open because they were doing a bunch of different construction stuff.

So I didn't get to go see it. But it was, on my first visit, it was my favorite thing in the whole fucking museum. Yeah. The casting room. It's incredible. It's incredible. But the movies I chose. Sorry, I just, not to belabor this, but like, how does the exhibit present?

You see a lot of audition real. you see a lot of casting photos of like major significant stars before you'd ever seen them in anything. And you see like casting notes in there. People have generously donated their previous notes for like people that they've done casting work for. Yeah. I think you saw like not call sheets, but like the audition like sheets of like who was coming in for stuff. And it just really kind of illuminated the process. But like one of the movies I think of when I think of.

that exhibit is Boys in the Hood. And Jackie Brown's work on that. Jackie Brown, who's currently, I believe, retired, cast a lot of movies in the 90s, specifically movies, with predominantly black casts, and also Billy Madison. Boys in the Hood, I think when you talk about movies with, like, real density of finding who then would have been new performers. You know, in this movie, it's people like Morris Chestnut, Regina King, obviously, Cuba Gooding Jr., who, like, might not have been as familiar of faces to people.

And then you leave the movie like, who the fuck was that person? They were incredible. Yeah. And there's, like, 15 of those in this movie. And they're, like, people who would go on to, like, be movies since then, like, have never left the movies since then. Jackie Brown also casts, would you believe it? Quentin Tarantino's Jackie Brown. Get the hell out of here. That's so fantastic.

Yeah. But things like, wait, to exhale, Demon Night. Joe, have you seen Demon Night? If I did, it would have been, like, back in the day on, like, HBO late at night and seen, like, only part of it. I can't remember whether it was, what was the other tales from the Crypt movie? Bordello of Blood. Bordello of Blood is horrible. But you know what's awesome?

Fucking demon. Is that true? The wheels are turning and like reclaiming that movie. Go back and watch it. Okay. Fun-ass movie. I'll add that to my list for my October horror marathon, perhaps. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely, because I definitely watched it in like an October horror marathon. And I was like that was one of my favorite things that I'd watch. Nice. Jackie Brown also went on to do a lot of HBO movies, including some. She was Emmy nominated for things like Ms. Evers, boys. She cast Isbayu, which was another movie I thought of for doing in this, especially with those kids. Sure. Did the casting for Juice, which was that the first movie Tupac was ever in? I don't know. Yes. I'm looking at, yes, that was 1992. The only other

films he showed up in was nothing but trouble as part of the Digital Underground collective, remember when Digital Underground shows up at the awful mansion in nothing but trouble? If you don't remember it, that's fine because that movie sucks. So yeah, being the casting director on the movie that was just like, yes, I will cast Tupac in

1992. That is, again, feather in your cap. A story to dine out on forever and ever. But like Boys in the Hood, too. Again, it's like a lot of the... You know, you have established people like Lawrence Fishburn. It's Lawrence Fishburne. It's

Lawrence Fishburn and Angela Bassett before they would be Oscar nominated. Yep, yep, yeah. But, like, you know, there's that level of star, but then there's also people who have just been, like, working and working and working, and you've seen in 15 different things before. Yeah, yeah, yep, yep. But they all bring something specific, like I was saying, with Nashville, like these movies probably couldn't be any more different, but it is, they are movies that have similar demands of, you have to have these actors who can show up and bring these fully realized people in sometimes small roles. Or some of them, it's just like, you know, they're playing teenagers. Yeah.

Or like young adults. And like that's difficult too. But like, again, this is a pick for like true incredible density of, you know, making the right choice of people who would have longer. You mentioned that Jackie Brown did casting for Eve's Bayou. That's one where, again, permit me to be soap opera Joe. But the casting of Debbie Morgan in that movie, Debbie Morgan, who at that point was best known for being a soap opera actress was a daytime Emmy winner for all my children. Debbie Morgan's so fucking good. So fucking good. And like that to me is like, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to move beyond. you know, just the typical places to find actors and to, you know, to recognize her talent and to pull that out. But like, that's also a movie that has, you know, Megan Goods in that movie and obviously, you know, Journey Smallett's in that movie. Really impressive, impressive casting in that movie as well. Yeah, that's a great selection. I think Jackie Brown's one of those people who were this, had this award been around, you know, for the last. three decades or whatever, like back through the 90s, when, you know, when, when would the casting award have been the most exciting? I think the 90s is one of those things where you imagine,

you know, while the indie movies were having their day, you know, and sort of emerging in the 90s, I think recognizing those indies that really were discovering and making, you know, stars at that time would have been very exciting. And you would really have hoped that somebody like Jackie Brown would have been either would have gotten a bunch of nominations or would have been somebody who would have been snubbed enough times that like, you know, a decade later people would have been, you know, essentially just like shaming the Oscars. for not recognizing them, right? But like Boys in the Hood's an example of, you know, that movie was a best director nominee for John Singleton. So, you know, there was, there's some hope that that might have been a nominee for casting had that existed.

That's an excellent list. What's your next pick? Well, so I wanted to do something with Wes Anderson because, of course, I think the casting in Wes Anderson movies are always so interesting and so I think he, along with Tarantino, is, you know, somebody who obviously does not have a hard time attracting movie stars to his realm, right? By this point, you know, you want to work with a Wes Anderson. And so I think one of the more interesting things about Wes Anderson and Tarantino is one of those ones too, is how they choose to, you know, utilize the actors and sort of how they choose to feature them. But I figured there had to have been a point before that was the case, before everybody, you know, wanted to bang down Wes Anderson's door. And so I landed on Rushmore, 1998's Rushmore, because while, like, Luke Wilson's in that

movie with him, and, like, you know, he already has this established relationship with him. but like, and I imagine getting Bill Murray to do the movie is like that's Wes's, you know, heavy lifting, right? But there was this like huge, you know, not like nationwide search, it's not like they did a reality competition for it. But like they cast in that pretty far and wide to cast Max Fisher in this movie. And yes, Jason Swartzman is, you know, Talia Shire's son and part of the Coppola dynasty and whatever. But, you know, even among Nepo babies to sort of, you know, he was like, you know, playing drums or whatever he was in Phantom Planet. I can't remember what instrument he played in Phantom Planet. It's not like, you know, the scene in Mulholland Drive where somebody's on the phone with, you know, Wes Anderson being like, he's the one.

So I feel like the, Jason Schwartzman as Max Fisher, is so perfect that, like, that alone to me would be enough. And yet it's not that alone because, like, Rushmore really sets. Yes, that's the original alone yet not alone. This is a movie that kind of sets the template for what comes after it in terms of just, like, the way that Wes Anderson sort of populates his movies. you know, Brian Cox, you know, playing the headmaster and Seymour Casell playing Max's dad. And, you know, you've got Olivia Williams.

The kid who plays... Someone I'd love to see back in a Wes Anderson movie. What's that? Olivia Williams. Olivia Williams. Yeah, for sure. Sarah Tanaka, who plays Margaret Yang, who is the girl who he ends up, you know, dating when he goes to the other high school, who helps him put on the production of,

I can't remember what the name of the Vietnam play he puts on is. But anyway, it's just, this is sort of the prototype for the Wes Anderson movie, kind of in microcosm, or in miniature, because it's before Wes could sort of, like, get any colors of the crayon box he wanted. He's working with a smaller crayon box here. Mary Gale Arts. He's got an eight-pack.

Yes, yes. The eight-pack of crayon. Deborah Zane is sort of the, you know, the A-Lister casting director here, but Mary Gail Arts and Barbara Cohen are the other credited casting directors. Arts and Cohen did casting for movies like Hocus Pocus and The Nightmare Before Christmas and Fralty. Deborah Zane, though, one is a pretty big heavy hitter. Among many other projects was casting director on American Beauty on Twitter on

traffic on Oceans 11, on The Hunger Games, and, you know, the entire sort of like Hunger Games franchise. I want to look her up for half a second, because I imagine she also has a shitload of casting society nominations and wins. She also, if you check her out on IMDB, has just tortoiseshell glasses to beat the band, like, my goodness. Oh yeah Let's see Awards and nominations for Deborah Zane

Casting Society Recent nominee As recently as 2024 for both the Hunger Games The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes and Cocaine Bear Nominy for Mulan nominee for the original Hunger Games

Nominy for Away We Go Nominee for Revolutionary Road nominee for The Tale of Despero Winner for Dreamgirls nominee for Seabiscuit nominee for Road to Perdition nominee for Oceans 11 winner for Traffic

Winner for American Beauty nominee for Galaxy Quest nominee for Pleasantville nominee for Wag the Dog and nominee for Get Shorty that's an all-star right there so

doesn't surprise me that a movie that is cast by Deb Rizane ended up doing as well as Rushmore did. But yeah, I wanted to kind of thread the needle there and just in terms of like those West Anderson movies, I think the casting in all of those movies is always so, so good.

And I think trying to do that at a moment where the Wes Anderson style is less well known, you know, is really impressive. and well done. I thought about Moonrise Kingdom for West Anderson movies. Sure, yeah. For all the kids. And not just those two lead kids, but all the three brothers are so funny.

That's true. That's a good point. Well, all of those khaki scouts too. I mean, you know, not just Lucas Hedges, but all of the other ones. That's a great idea. Wait, let's see, who did the casting for Moonrise Kingdom? Jared Gilman, by the way, who I do follow on letterbox and is a pretty good letterbox to follow.

Casting director Douglas A. Bell. Fabulous. Who was a nominee for casting for marriage story, shared with who? Francine Maisler. And was a nominee at the Critics' Choice for casting slash ensemble shared with who? Nina Gold for Jay Kelly.

There you go. It's all happening. it's all happening. All right. You have one more, and it's a banger. The last one, again, banger, sure. At this point, I'm like, did I make all the obvious choices? Did I make too many obvious choices? Oh, I don't think so. I think you made some very, very shrewdic picks.

But again, we're looping back to Paul Thomas Anderson, and I do have to say one of the movies that it's like, what can you name in the years-long conversations of trying to have a casting Oscar what are the movies that you could throw out and be like that movie obviously needs an Oscar for casting and one of those for me is boogie nights

yeah Christine Sheeks the casting director also had previously worked on Sydney slash hard eight with Paul Thomas Anderson and did other films like horror films and the scary movie franchise. But Boogie Nights specifically, it's also like, again, this is an example I think of, like you chose with Wes Anderson, with Paul Thomas

Anderson. You know, it's a director before the time where it's like, well, they're just getting whoever they want, you know. That's exactly right. Or whatever roles. And yet it seems like a movie that is made, that, that is 10 years down in high. On the hindsight, it seems like that. It does. Right, absolutely, yeah. And that's just because, like, there's, you know, every choice is kind of the perfect choice, and there's, you know, three dozen perfect choices happening in this movie. Even down to the point of, like, you also have the difficulty of you have to find actors who are going to be comfortable, you know, with a movie that's set in this world. You know, I think we kind of take for granted that Boogie Nights is a bit. about the porn industry now, but at the time, it felt much more taboo.

I mean, like, even a choice like Julianne Moore, like, what would Julian Moore's career be without this? She'd probably still be making, you know, just the weirdest, Tom, to Ott Haynes movies. Yeah. But you think of the roles, like, sorry, no, go ahead. This is your presentation. No, no, no, no, no, go ahead. I was going to say, you think of the roles, like, you know, down to, like, Alfred Molina for a scene. or Ricky Jay's

contribution to the movie or whatever and just like there are so many folks Thomas Jane you know showing up towards the end of the movie Nicole Ari Parker The Dragon Lady Nicole Ari Parker and Don Cheedle you know what I mean like it's just obviously John C. Riley who had been

bouncing around you know forever I remember for the Demi podcast we did We're No Angels which was late 80s and you had John, you know, John C. Riley there. But really sort of like finding the absolute perfect deployment for him in this.

And the casting of John C. Riley does so much to bring out Wahlberg too. Because like the triumph of Boogie Nights, and obviously this to me, this I, you know, a tribute to Paul Thomas Anderson certainly, is

Mark Wahlberg, I don't think in and of himself is a particularly, I don't want to say untalented, but he's not a particularly skilled actor in that, like, I don't think he has a particularly great control over his instrument. He's incredibly director dependent. And that's why when, you know, he has a director with a really good sense of what they want him to do, like David O. Russell and Iard Huckabees, he can be. We definitely went into this conversation in that episode way, way, way, way back. But like, Boogie Nights is a great example of it and probably maybe, you know, the best example of it, where Walberg is not, you know, can be limited. But within those limits, if you can point him in the right direction and surround him with, you know, everything that can point him towards the performance you need from him, he can be really excellent. And he's really excellent in Boogie Nights. And I think the casting that one on around him really, really helps that out, particularly

John C. Riley and Julian Moore, and Philpsey Moore Hoffman, too, actually. It also helps that he is significantly more famous than everybody, but not, like, respectively famous. Mm-hmm. Yep. So, like, that makes it the right choice. And obviously, like, Leo was the original choice. But, like, I do ultimately think Leo at that time would have been the wrong choice.

And that's because... You saw I did that counterfactual on Vulture. And it was brilliant, as always. But it's... As respectfully, as I can say, for someone who I certainly don't know, but has said a lot of things that I don't respect at all. It's no miracle that Mark Wahlberg's best performances are when he's playing a fucking idiot. Yeah. And Dirk Dinkler's an idiot.

And, like, you don't, I don't think you get that performance as like this perfect crystalline object as it is. If Leo is playing that, you know, like, it's, there's something about him in this movie that, like, he's obviously playing a character. I'm not trying to, like, make this sound as dumb as the word sound. But, like, there's part of it that, like, feels like not performance. And it feels like a harnessing of self. Yeah. in a way that makes the movie brilliant. But you look at how much this movie sets the template for, like,

the Paul Thomas Anderson traveling, you know, ensemble going forward, where it's just like John C. Riley, William H. Macy, Ricky Jay, Philip Baker Hall, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Julianne Moore, just like all of these people, Malora Walters, who would... Also, like, we didn't say Bert Reynolds, which, of course, Bert Reynolds is more famous. Reynolds requested that you not, though, because he's disowned. Yeah, Bert Reynolds doesn't want me to mention that he was in this movie. Have we reached a point now where both Bert Reynolds and Mark Wahlberg have both mostly

disowned this movie now because, uh, hasn't Walberg said... Is it still alive? Well, no, but that's only recently. Um, but like, uh, Reynolds famously, uh, you know, was disgruntled. And then Walberg, I think recently has come around to being like, I don't like that I played a porn star and blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't quote me on that, but I think that's what... But, like, Louise Guzman's another one who, you know, would be, you know, a recurring presence in the Paul Thomas Anderson movies.

And the fact that so many of them enter the fray at this particular movie is just like, man, talk about nailing it right away. You know what I mean? Like, finding your people so early on in the process. Like, that's pretty great. Christine Sheeks wins the RTO's casting society award for this movie for comedy. I think this is, I do agree, I think Boogie Nights could be credibly a comedy. There's some funny shit in this movie. The more often I watch it, every time I go back to it, I'm just like, this movie is fucking hilarious.

But it's not a comedy. No. You can argue Nashville is more of a comedy than Bollinger. Well, Nashville is certainly at least a musical. So, you know, category-wise, you can throw it in there. It's nominated against as good as it gets in and out my best friend's wedding, the opposite of sex, and wag the dog. Actual comedies.

Yes. Only two ever casting society nominations for Christine Sheeks. The other one was the very next year for the independent film Thursday that starred Thomas Jane, Aaron Eckhart, and Paulina Poroscova. So, fun fact there. What other movies did she do? Miss Christine Sheeks. Well, Deep Blue Sea, casting a shark is not easy.

What else? Let's see. Boogie Nights. Perfectly cast movie. Also, we should mention, like, casting actual porn stars in the movie as well. And, like, if you go back to the history, mostly, like, De Palma history. the reticence of studios sure

the difficulty at getting those performers in getting them a sad card for even minor roles in movies was very difficult there you go all right also was the casting director

on the film female perversions that starred Tilda Edelwynton, Amy Madigan, and Clancy Brown. That movie is goofy. Is it? I've never seen it. Recently restored, so I only saw it post-restoration. Interesting. Well, I'm intrigued.

Tilt is very horny in it. All right, so that was a mere ten movies selected by us, but truly, if you go back through Oscar history, there are so, so many movies that, you know, you want to point towards and And obviously we are dumb-dums about some of this. Obviously, we have the caveats of

studio procedure, director procedure, but we're just saying movies that we think would have deserved an Oscar for their cast. You have some really good runners up, I think, that really do run the gamut and some of them that I was absolutely looking at.

Yeah, just to shout out a few more movies since we only did five each some other options throughout film history I thought of. Meet me in St. Louis. You got to cast a whole family. You got to cast Margaret O'Brien. I was going to say that little kid, yeah. Tudie, legend.

That was one I thought of. I thought about all about Eve when thinking about best picture winners. If there were best picture winners, I wanted to slip in there. Days of Heaven, not just for the protagonist, but like that the like giant cast of people that actually have to go out and work fucking fields for Terrence Malick. The color purple, quite obviously, for several different reasons and just like the density of incredible performances in that movie. Sticking with Whoopi, I thought of Sister Act.

Sisteract is a tremendous choice. Casting all of those nuns, absolutely perfect. I know, I felt bad not picking it because it just feels so like, And like I didn't get like a comedy, though. Ask the casting society and I did. You know the thought I had about Sister Act the other day. You know, obviously, you know, I love the great Mary Wicks. That scene where she's talking, they're all having lunch together and she's telling Mary Clarence about whatever her history.

And she says, I can't remember what the line preceded it is, but she goes, four popes. And Mary Claren't goes four, really. And then I realized, I'm on four popes. I've been alive for four fucking popes. It's me and Mary Lazarus. We are one in the same. Old-ass crones who have experienced four popes. God damn it.

You are the Mary Lazarus of this relationship. Thank you. I appreciate it. Which one am I? Alma. Besides Alma. Sister Alma. Alma, check your battery. I'm not jolly enough to be Nijimi.

Every pair of friends, one is the sister Mary Robert and one is the sister Mary Patrick. One is the cheerful extrovert and one is the insecure but secretly has the voice of Dusty Springfield. And one of them is the comic relief who doesn't say a word. I say too much to be Alma. I guess I'm mama. I also thought of my Big Fat Greek wedding as a movie that was like left out of Best Picture. Could I do my Big Fat Greek wedding?

I'm like, I'll let Chris do it. So all those Greeks. All of those family members, all of those Greeks. And then the one I had a real hard time of letting go with, but I didn't want it to be. This one does feel like the director making the choice. Yeah. But they're all fucking perfect choices.

They are. Would have deserved a casting Oscar. It's gone, girl. I'd have done Gone Girl except for Emily Radikowski. I was just like, nope, can't do it. You get points up. Yeah, but like you don't care about that character. No, I know, I'm only kidding.

And like, that's why it's perfect cast. Well, there you go. I mean, Gone Girl, one of my and Anne Hathaway's favorite romantic comedies. You and Anne are funny that way. I didn't have as many, but I definitely had a few top of the lines. line ones. I certainly would have raised holy hell if a beautiful mind had defeated Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring in the casting category had it existed that year.

Casting that very first Lord of the Rings movie, I know you are not a fan of those movies, but... Yeah, but I think it would have... That would have been an Oscar that it would have beaten a Beautiful Mind for. It's really, really a lot of... of work and a lot of really well done casting, you know, elves and hobbits and all of those extras. And all of those people who are in, you know, various sizes of roles, you have to cast people

to be, you know, the ones who are killed in the first one and who don't, you know, go on. And again, you know, all the elves have to have this sort of look and all the dwarves have to have this sort of look and all the hobbits have to, you know what I mean? It's just, it's, it's, you know, it's an accomplishment. I also thought of Fargo along the sort of same lines as Boogie Nights and Rushmore, the sort of like, obviously the Coens were much more of an established thing already by the time they had gotten to Fargo. But you look at how so many of those roles in Fargo are just like,

well, I can't imagine anybody else doing like what Peter Stormer is doing in that movie. Or like what. That's true of all. Peter Stormair performances. The guy's basically a Muppet. Down to like the woman who plays William H. Macy's wife. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or like the two girls who are like, he's kind of funny looking.

You know, like those guys like Mike Yanigita. And, you know, there are just so many small little, the guy who plays Marge's, you know, police partner who, you know. John Carroll Lynch. Well, John Carroll Lynch is her husband. Yes. It's an absolutely. perfect movie for a casting award. And then the other one that I feel like... Much like Gone Girl, a movie about a perfect marriage.

And then I thought of BPM, which... That's an incredible call. Incredible. Tremendous work of casting a living, breathing community of queer people with, you know, who are... who look and act like they could occupy... the same space while also, you know, being different. You're casting people for, you know, different body types, different looks, that kind of a thing, but also really tremendous young actors who, you know. Conceivable infighting, too.

Yep. And then that's one where I look back and it's just like, man, I would have been even more angry at BPM getting snubbed that year if there were a casting award, because, like, I would have been hollering about that to anybody who would listen about how that movie deserved a nomination in that category. But yeah, a lot of good ones. The thing about casting awards is acting is my, I mean, I sound like a, you know, maybe a dumb dumb when I say this. Acting is my favorite thing about movies. It's the thing that sort of like drew me into movies to begin with. I think most of us sort of fall in love with movies through actors first. It's sort of like they say how you eat with your eyes first kind of a thing. I think you experience

movies from a younger age, I think the actors are what sort of grabs you. And so this is a category that invites you to not only appreciate a movie's breadth of actors, but also the work that goes into assembling them. And if the Avengers movies have taught us anything, is that we love to watch things assemble. And so finally having a casting category is, is, is, um, is, It's a good thing that we're finally here. So, hooray! What a nice moment to live in where we're getting more categories instead of less. Yes.

I know. I know. It really did seem for a while that ABC was going to dictate a whittling down of categories, and I'm glad we're not there. I'm excited for this miniseries, Chris. We are... Listeners, we hope you enjoyed this because you're going to have it for the whole month of May. We're going to let you have it.

Chatting, talking, and talking up favorites, and doing all that. Yeah. I like the opportunity for us to get to have in a, still loosely organized, as we prefer to do, but in an organized way, talk about, in like also a roundabout way, much as I am as a speaker. where the academy is at and where we think they could go and just like, you know, be wishful thinking in a certain way.

Exactly. Exactly. All right. All right. That is our episode. We didn't talk about the Patreon this episode. We breathed so much into the conversation. We didn't highlight it. Guys, go over to the Patreon. We already have. the exception episode up now for the American president.

Yeah, we kicked off the May miniseries with the exception, yes. Yeah, real Gary's know that the main miniseries started before this, and we were talking about the score categories with the American president. A bangor of a movie. You want to hear us talking about a one specific movie this month. Go listen to the exception episode. Go sign up for the Patreon. Patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz.

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