This Had Oscar Buzz - CATEGORY IS… – Choreography

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

The May miniseries CATEGORY IS… chugs along this week with Choreography! You know we love talking about dance on film, so this was a category we couldn’t pass up discussing. We’re talking about the three (early) years that Oscar once awarded Dance Direction, when the lines might blur between choreography and fight choreography, iconic musical … Continue reading "CATEGORY IS… – Choreography"

I don't know the right house. We want to talk to Merlin Heck. Mill and Heck. I'm from Canada water. Dick Poop. Bring it to the runway. Category is stars, statements, and legends. I don't have anything they planned, just a giant blowout party with all the Barbies and planned choreography and a bespoke song.

You should stop by. Sure. I won't die. Don't ask me. I thought this was a party. Shall we dance, Mr. Clark? Dance. Now I want to dance. I want to win. I want that trophy. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that knows that the men up there don't like a lot of blather.

Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we usually talk about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty aspirations for the Academy Awards. But it's May, and in May, we get a little different. So what we do this year in May is we're talking about categories. Our May miniseries for 2026 category is where we go through the various quirks and intricacies of the Academy Awards, and we decide what new and fun categories there should be and talk about what new and fun categories there are. So, yeah, I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here as always with mine Lieber hair, Chris Fyle. alternately, my baby in a corner, Chris Fyle, alternately, my shepoopy, Chris File. Alternately, the only person I want to choreograph my dance, more than Honey Daniels, Chris File. You are inviting me to dance the Black Swan.

I am inviting you to dance the Black Swan, yes, exactly. We are here to trip the light fantastic. We are. We're here to strut down the streets of Bensonhurst? Where is Saturday Night Fever? It's down there, right? Bay Ridge. Staten Island. Spiritually, it feels like

Saturday Night Fever Staten Island culture? And I can't... Hold on a second. Hold on. We can't start this off with a factually inaccurate thing about Saturday Night Fever of all places. It is Bay Ridge. Okay. Bay Ridge in Brooklyn. Lovely place. Anyway, we're strutting to the Bee Gees.

this week. We are, in fact, proposing why isn't there, wasn't there, and shouldn't there be a category for best choreography at the Academy Awards? There kind of was. For three years, early on. For three years in the 1930s. But there was. Three years in the 1930s, and they said, hey, we're going to call this category

off because there's no way that in two years there's going to be a movie that's going to define movie musicals and the way we go from black and white to color. And yeah, skipping off to see The Wizard of Oz. That'll never happen two years after we canceled. It's really not, you know, I mean, it is the defining musical maybe for all of cinema. It would have won that year, for sure, 1939. For doing like a little chaise.

For, you know, the lollipop guilds and whatnot. punch can land and... Yeah, we're closer to a lollipop guild than we are to the swan... Raybles are flopping all around. Yeah. Ten man's tut-toot. We both

impulsively did the little... Yeah, the little arm pump thing listeners. Yep. I mean, it's also close enough. I guess when was an American in Paris? 1950.

Early 1950s. An American in Paris was 1950. I've got it right here in the outline, in fact. 1951. Yeah. Well, I mean, Yankee doodle dandy in 1942 also would have done it. You know what I mean? We're not that far off from singing in the rain to...

Yep. That's the 40s. When we end up, that's also early 50s. 1940s is the two that I sort of wrote down, Yankee doodle dandy in 42, but then the red shoes was 1948. True. That was the best picture nominee. Like, that would have been, you know, pretty much a slam dunk.

The Red Shoes is one I left off of my five Oscar picks for not to jump ahead to the end of the episode. Like we usually do jumping ahead to the end of a movie on our show. But like in trying to avoid, you know, the obvious things we would be spending like the body of the episode. Where is the body? Where is the body? In the episode because it's just like the Red Shoes is just one of those that looms so large. And it's also so close to the category being defunct. It's like, you know, this is still very much in the era of the academy figuring out their purpose, but also like what they would be awarding.

Because it's only the eighth through the tenth academy ceremonies that the dance direction category exists. That's right. And, you know, there's a good, how many nominees, seven each year? year or is it six one of the years? It's seven all of the years. Yes. So it's like it's still kind of fluid at how many nominees are we going to have. But like this is- I'll read you off some of the categories that existed at the 1935 Academy Awards, the eighth annual Academy Awards, just to give you a sense of like, you know, we had categories like best assistant director. We had categories like best short subject comedy, best short subject novelty, and best short-subject novelty, and best short-sort

subject cartoon. Whereas now it's like the Oscars with the short live action categories. It's like, I don't know. This one in the sea of depressing is a comedy. It didn't make me laugh, but it does stand out because it's a comedy. Can you imagine? There were still no supporting actor categories. Best Picture was still at one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Why not? Just throw twelve movies into, twelve movies in best, uh, sorry, outstanding. production. We still hadn't settled on what best picture was going to be called at that point. This is early. This is still very, very early. Best picture that year, that very first year, Mutiny on the Bounty, a movie with curiously little dancing. So there was not a ton of crossover. But this is an era too where the density of musicals, maybe not so many that have stood the test of time, like some of the musicals that we've mentioned, like Wizard of Oz. But, you know, you would have a high. higher percentage of musicals that you could go out to a theater and see within a year than you would, perhaps in any other decade moving forward. Yeah.

So it's like you understand why the category exists, but I think with all of that, and especially knowing where you would immediately be going to things that are maybe not overtly musicals like the Red Shoes or other Powell and Pressburger movies like Tales of Hoffman. Yeah. where it's just like, I think it's pretty clear that they cut this category short way too soon. Oh, well, like, they were still at the burgeoning edge of the golden age of movie musicals, a golden age that would last for like two plus decades more. Yeah. So, like, yes, it's a curious time to bail on a category after only three years when you would have, you know, you would have been able to go. probably 30 to 40 more years before you really started to feel like, oh, things are getting, the pool is getting pretty shallow, right?

It's not really until you get into the New Hollywood days of the 1930s where the New Hollywood was so much a kind of, in part, it was a rejection of a lot of things, but one of the things it was a rejection of was the sort of bloated Hollywood production, which many of which were musicals, Dr. Doolittle, read. I don't know what great Zinkfield you're talking about. Right, exactly. Have you seen the Great Sick Field? No, I have not.

Oh, buddy. That movie sucks. We'll get into it. Well, it's the winner of the 1936 Award for Best Dance Tour. Let's just get into this now. Okay. The three-year, one of the things that I really wanted to look at and discuss, because we're talking about a category that has previously existed.

It's the only time this month that we're getting to do that. Yes. And a lot of our concern with, like, we talked about this in our casting episode, we talk about this whenever we talk about new categories coming up for the Oscars, is that it would just be in the modern era a reflection of best picture just kind of running the gamut with it. And this is a category, I think, that that would almost be impossible ever to be the case. Certainly waxes and wanes. There are certain years, of course, an American in Paris and West Side Story and West Side Story and what. but not where best picture and best dance direction would have overlapped. But yes, it is not one, it is not a category that would have just rubber-stamped your best-picture nominees every year by any means.

So that would have made it particularly interesting, I think, as a category. And it's definitely, if you're talking about particularly the mid-20th century, you know, you are talking about a time when there is a ton of very dance-intention. you know, big, huge productions, to sort of go by. And this is when you're getting some of these sort of great luminaries of the era. The one note I put in fairly prominently in the outline was like they nominated Busby Berkeley three times and didn't give him the award once, which is just, I mean, they nominated Top Hat.

That very first year, nominees included Busby Berkeley for Gold Diggers of 1935. First of all, timeout. Do we not need... We're rebooting everything. Oh, gold diggers of 2027? Let's do it. Let's do it. Everything is IP.

Why do we not have somebody who, even if you're going to do it tongue and cheek, a gold diggers of 2026, 2027, 28, we need one every year. Can I tell you who needs to star in this? Who needs to be the headliners? Who? Of the gold diggers of 2027? Tell me. Kristen Wig and Annie Mumillow. Oh my God, yes.

One billion percent. They're not literally Barb and Star, but be like, here's your title. We need it to be the two of you. Do whatever you want. I feel about this. I feel about this as strongly as I felt about anything that we need to reboot this. And you have just given me a perfect addendum. We have all the answers.

We do have all the answers. Hollywood, just come a call in because we got them. We got the answers. So Busby Berkeley Gold Diggers of 1935 is a nominee. a film called King of Burlesque. I'm listening. Top hat. Well, we already have a King of Burlesque.

Not to derail us yet again. Share. Share is a rich man. I was going to say Stanley Tucci, but. I was going to say, share doesn't need to marry a rich man. She is a rich man. She doesn't need a King of Burlesque. She is the King of Burlesque.

Also, as you continue, we should say that it is specific dance numbers in these films. That is true. Right. And so this is why you're getting choreogical. And it's also, it's best dance, it says best dance direction, but you're getting choreographers who are nominated for multiple films. So like Dave Gould wins in the very first year. For multiple films and multiple dance sequences. The Broadway Melody of 1936.

It is clear they don't quite know how to do this. Right, right. Broadway melody of 1936 and Foli Berger de Paris for Dave Gould. But some, some choreographers are only nominated for one thing, Busby Berkeley, only for Gold Diggers of 1935. Hermes Pahn for Pan, Pond. I'm just going to whatever.

For Top Hat, a little Fred Astaire movie called Top Hat. Have you ever heard of it? Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. She's doing the whole thing backwards and in heels. It's all there, man. It really is crazy that that's not the winner, especially for the place that that has in

movie history. But then this brings back to my earlier point. Broadway melody of 1936, a Best Picture nominee. Well, so is Top Hat, though. That is true. They both are. So they're really...

Busby didn't have that luxury, but yes. Was Astaire nominated for Best Actor? He was not. Fred Astaire, I don't think was nominated for an Oscar until Towering. No, yeah. That's wild, man. That's why they nominated him for that whatever. Yeah, yeah.

The second year, the second year, the 1936 Oscars, best picture winner, the great Zigfeld, wins Best Dance Direction for the, a pretty girl is like a melody. I'm always saying.

That sequence is just kind of endless. Mm-hmm. But giving it, okay, so it's on this, like, tower that's revolving, or the camera's, like, going all around the tower. And there's, like,

some people doing choreography, but it's also just one of those old Hollywood things, where it's just like, here's all of these beautiful girls on one stage and these giant costumes. If you've seen Funny Girl, you get the sense of what that is, right? That's sort of what that scene in Funny Girl is parodying, right? Because she's a Ziegfeld girl. I know that this is a very iconic scene.

It is maybe the one time I've watched it. Well, maybe not the one time. It is one of the times where I've watched a musical and a musical number will not end to the point where I, even I, and yelling at the screen, enough. Enough of the, but I'd already lost my patience with that movie, in fairness. You also, again, quite like the year before, you have a Busby Berkeley nomination for Gold Diggers of this time 1937. You have an Hermes Pan nomination for a Fred Astaire and Jitter Rogers movie, this time,

swing time. Another one that is like, you know, is still remembered to. today, none of those movies are nominated for Best Picture, and the Great Zigfeld is and ends up winning, so it's not a huge surprise. Did the story of Louis Pester not have a big dance number in it? Because honestly, that would have been fun. Just pasteurizing milk to, you know, in a big, you know, tap number. I'm into it. This does bring up the question of musicals that are not necessarily dance focused. If we think that they would have still been a nominee. Something like My Fair Lady.

My Fair Lady, a Best Picture winner, probably would have been nominated, probably would have lost to Mary Poppins. We'll get into things like this later. We'll get into things like that. What's another musical that I can do? Something like Rent, would Rent have been, well, Rent was probably out of the conversation. Rent did not have a ton of dancing also.

Exactly, though. This is the point. Although they did have some, but like it's not a really dance forward musical. 1936 also had a movie called Kane and Mabel. I'm just going to say also, let's bring back the title Kane and Mabel for a romantic comedy. This was a Marion Davies movie.

This was a movie that William Randolph-Hurst produced at Marion Davies starred in. So I imagine that this movie being called Kane, but it's Kane with the C-A-I-N. I don't know if the title of Citizen Kane had anything to do with this. or just make this a trend. Let's do like Mary and Josephine. Oh, just like biblical names, but it's like a... But one of them is different. One of them is a gender swap. Right, right, right. No, I like this. I'm into this. David and... What was King David's?

Galathia. Gali. See, I never find the easy thing until later. Gal Ayyth, David and Galaieth. I love it. Okay. And then 1937, the final year. Finally, Hermes Pan wins it for a damsel in distress. No best picture nominees in this lineup, though.

Right. Fred Astaire is in this movie. Ginger Rogers is not, but George Burns and Gracie Allen were. And I don't know whether they danced in it. But you know what? Would have been nice if they did. Again, Busby Berkeley is nominated for, a movie called Varsity Show that is essentially just like,

we're in college and there's a big game, and Busby Berkeley is just going to like choreograph a shitload of dance routines in college like sweaters and like collegiate, you know, sweaters. It's fun. This is a good time. Dave Gould, who won the first year, was nominated for a day at the races, which is a Marks Brothers movie.

So, like, that's very fun. What are the other nominees this year? Waikiki Wedding, which just sounds like a good time, the Big Crosby movie, Wycki Qaeda Wedding. Maybe not as good of a time if Bing Crosby's there as you're filming it. But, you know, who's to say? So, yeah, a movie called Thin Ice with Tyrone Power. That's cool.

Ali Baba goes to town, starring, of course, Eddie Cantor. Definitely. You know. Not doing something racially insensitive. Of course. No, certainly not. No, no. I'm sure it's fine.

I'm sure it's all fine and good. Anyway, it was the 1930s. There was a war. There was a war happening. Thank God there was dancing. Ready, willing, and able? Now, why was Abel, not like A-B-E-L? And that's also a Canaan Abel.

Because that's an NBC sitcom. It's like the volcano and Dante's peak of 1937, but it was like dueling Kane and Abel rom-coms. Ready Willing and Abel is like an NBC biblical sitcom about Abel's

roommates after he killed his brother. And they're trying to be like, ah, we moved into this murderer and like you got all of these jokes that's like, if I had a brother, no, no, no, no, you know. Yeah, yes, yes.

Ready Willing and Abel is based on a 1935 story in the Saturday evening post. Doesn't that just sound lovely? Yeah. Back when, like, movies were based on articles from the Saturday evening post. Listen, we still get great movies based on articles. We're not that far removed from hustlers. Well, that is true.

That is true. We also get movies based on, like, blogs and TikToks and stuff like that. Sure. You know. We also get some... ...get some movies. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, those were the golden three years of the best.

dance direction category. As I said, two years later, we would have the Wizard of Oz. But like, even one year later, you would have, what were some of the musicals nominated the next year? Come on. I threw my cap over the wall and made that big statement. And now I'm looking at the list. And I'm like, come on, somebody show up for me. There's a movie called The Great Waltz. That's got to have some waltzing in it at the very least. As, you know, potentially some great ones. I would think. You would think. You would at least one great waltz. Yeah. There's a movie called mannequin, probably very different than the one with Kim Cottrell in the 80s, wouldn't you say?

Marily we live, that's got to be a musical. Nothing more merry than the art of dance. Yeah. And then once you, like I said, you turn into the 1940s and it's just, we're into the stage, 1940s, 1950s, 1950s, 1950s and 1950s and 1950s and 1950s and 1960s is really where you really start to get, like, all of these Gene Kelly musicals and American in Paris, 1951, singing in the rain, 1952, Brigadune, I think, is a few years after that.

Carmen Jones, 1954, choreographed by Herbert Ross. Oklahoma in 1955, choreographed by Agnes DeMille. King and I, 1956, choreographed by Jerome Robbins, although I believe, I was, I tried to figure out which of these movies had original choreography or choreography, like, adapted slightly from the Broadway choreography or just like choreography that was imported entirely from the Broadway choreography. Because I imagine, I imagine this would have been a little bit of a eligibility nightmare back in the day, trying to figure out what is original choreography, what is, what is not what, you know, original choreography.

Well, because you're also talking about an era when there's adaptation score, original scores, too. I feel like when you're getting into something like West Side Story, which is very obviously, you know, adapted from the choreography from the stage, they still do stage productions that use that original choreography from the original Broadway. And most of these things were optimized for being on film, right? you would adjust things so that it would, you know, be more optimized to showing up on, you know, in a movie. But how much, I imagine there would be some determination that would have to be made of how much needs to be adjusted or changed.

Because also, when you're talking about choreography, you're, you know, it does every single move have to be wholly original? Does there, is that, you know, even possible? at some point you're just sort of, it's what is the line in, you know, a star is born. It's the same eight notes. It's just sort of the way you arrange them. You think of the chorus line musical, too. That's very a kind of choreography that they also use in the movie. Certainly there's original songs in the chorus line movie.

So, of course, there's some original choreography. Yeah. My, I also think there's an interesting thing of not just directly adapting things from the stage, but then when you get into like period pieces, not to, not to, uh, take us to the bad place, but you have something like Michael this year, where it's like you're doing recreation. You're doing the music video choreography. So would that be eligible?

It's funny. You said Michael, and I literally, I went to 13 going on 30, where it's just like 13 going on 30 has a big dance number, but it's essentially it's the thriller choreography. Sure. So it's like, that's non-original, you know, non-original dance. But I think my inclination would be, or like my assumption. I should say is that for something like West Side Story, you know, I think the logic would be even if it is adapted, it's not really the same as an adapted score, which a score is a tangible thing that they can, you know, and of course now we have things like recordings where you can put 13 going on 30 next to the original thriller video. Sure.

Yes. And say this is the same thing. But, you know, in that, you know, mid-century era of the, like, big, huge, splashy Hollywood musicals, you wouldn't have had recordings of the choreography. So I feel like those things would have just slipped through. I also, you wonder what if it's a different story when it's, for example, Jerome Robbins adapting his own choreography for Westside Story versus something like Fiddler on the roof where Tommy Abbott adapts, Jerome Robbins.

Jerome Robbins' choreography from the Broadway production. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, anyway, you know, the 1960s, you've got, you know, stuff like the Music Man and Mary Poppins, My Fair Lady, Sound of Music, all of that stuff. Fiddler is very early 1970s. And then when I think of 70s movie musicals, which again, we talked about this is when the genre is sort of on the Wayne. The only ones that really pop for me are the Fossies, right? Sweet Charity is very, very late 1960s. Cabaret is 1972. All that jazz is 1979. But this is also maybe where you have more movies that feature or explicitly about dance that could be nominated.

Things like the Turning Point. The Turning Point, Saturday Night Fever. Turning Point would probably be, would lose. that record of most Oscars lost. Well, or like winning no Oscars. Put a pin in that because I have something later on in the docket. Okay, well, we'll get there. Put a pin in that one because that's an interesting conversation. But yes, you're right.

And you have things like, please don't stop the music and, um, um, please, the Rihanna movie? No, wait, what's the title I'm thinking of? You mean can't stop. Can't stop. Oscar winner can't stop the music. Here's another idea, Hollywood. Please don't stop the music, an original movie musical starring Rihanna songs. Don't let Broadway get to it first.

Do it as an original movie musical. But it's a remake of Can't Stop the Music. So it's instead of the village people and a lady, it's Rihanna and a bunch of gay guys. Right. See, the more we suggest stuff like this, the more we're going to end up with an original feature-length musical. Like, after Stop That Train becomes a sleeper hit. We're going to get an original full-length cinematic. Can we do a cash bet right now?

Kalshi? Yeah, I'll bring it up. I'll spoil myself on the winner of Survivor yet again. Gary's, if you're betting on Kalshi, you need to stop it. Quit it. Cut it out. No, I want to do a cash bet in a while. We haven't.

I kind of want to do a prices right bet on how much stop that train is going to make. Oh. Domestic or worldwide? Domestic. One of us has to be over, one of us has to be under. Okay. We have to set the threshold. The drama is at what, like 47? Right about now?

Yes. The drama is closing in on 50. So do I think that Stop That Train is going to be more or less popular than the drama? Because here's the thing. A lot of like Bachelorette party wine friends, I could see them. doing let's all go see Stop That Train. Let's all go see the drag race movie. Right?

Do you want to set the dollar amount? I'm going to set it at 30. 30 million. I will bet you 100 American dollars right here right now that it will be under $30 million. Shit, no. 100 American dollars.

Well, now I am just going to pay you $100 because now that you've said it that vociferously, I know that I've overshot it. Well, see, this is why I'm terrible at betting because I'm like, all in, maybe. Yeah, you have no poker face. You really needed to, like, sucker me into that. I'm not good at that. You think it's going to be, like, in the teens?

Would you like to place the bet to the over-under bet at In the Teens somewhere? Yeah, I'll say $13 million. I'm happy doing under for that. Okay, I'll do over. What's our dollar amount? 50. Okay. $50.

All right. Hold on a second. My whiteboard's over here and my headphones can't stretch, so give me a second. Listener, you heard it here first. A live bet is happening. If you're on the Patreon, please go into the comments for this discussion feed and say who you think is winning this bet. Total? Like, by the time it leaves theaters. Yes. Okay. And I say over 13. 0.0 million. Chris says

under, and if it's exactly 13 million, then jokes on all of us. If you're in line to see, stop that train, stay in line. All right. Agreed? Agreed. All right. Very good.

Yay, we get a bet. We haven't done that in a while. Oh, and now I lost my drier race. See, this is better than Kalshi. You don't want to be some, uh, you know, morally unsound insider trading, what have you. You don't want to know how much, how much money I have bet in the last several years. Not on wars or anything like that.

All right. Then we move into the 1980s, which is, I think, a little bit of a rebirth, right? particularly your best original song trilogy of Flash Dance. Well, Footloose, I don't think wins original song, but it's nominated, right? Flash Dance, Footloose, Dirty Dancing. We'll throw in Fame there, 1980. Although there's less- Fame.

I think you might even see something like Purple Rain. I mean, Purple Rain is an Oscar winner. How much dancing is there in Purple Rain? Or stay in the time? Are you kidding me? Well, yeah, you're right. But I think in general, I think Flash dance wins in a walk.

Footloose wins in a walk. We should also start shouting out these choreographers. Flash dance, Jennifer Hornaday and an uncredited Betsy Hogg. Footloose choreographed by Lynn Taylor Corbett. Dirty Dancing choreographed by high school musical director, Kenny Ortega. So I think you've got all three of those folks would have Oscars. One thing I wanted to sort of haggle. with you a little bit is

how do we define the parameters of choreography because I know when you and I have sort of done fanciful year-end you know, choreography nominees, I think we've both enjoyed throwing in there, like, well, you could also do fight choreography because that is definitely

there are overlapping skills there. And usually we're doing some one of a bit that's usually like in the superlatives. And on the very rare occasion, they overlap completely in something like Zoolander when they were breakdance fighting. But, do you feel like... You have to get into specifics here because now that the stunts category is real, I feel

like you have to talk about an actual musical sequence. Like it has to be a sequence that you would call. a dance. Yeah. Of course there's, I guarantee you that the word dance will be featured in the first Oscar presentation of stunts.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. But a quite literal dance, not a figurative one. Oh, right. Yeah, they'll talk about, like, yeah, stunt action scenes are a dance between, you know, yeah, yeah. The body and the soul, you know what I mean.

Like, uh-huh, uh-huh. The body and- They'll try very hard. not to say the word violence, and they'll instead describe it as a dance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But do you think that a hypothetical choreography category, let's say a dance direction never went away in the 1930s and evolved into a category that was called best original choreography, best whatever, however we, you know, want to say it, do you feel like a category like that would have, accommodated for fight choreography, or do you think it would have made it more likely that a category for best fight choreography would have existed? Or do you think it would have just become a stunt coordination? Well, I do think it's interesting to, like, go down these hypothetical paths in terms of how a category would have evolved, because you see it in the other categories, too, through the evolution of like black and white and

color through adaptation, et cetera. Yeah. And I don't think that would really become a conversation until the 80s or 90s when you have these like action blockbuster spectaculars or, you know, where combat is actually featured and not just like war movie combat or war drama combat. Right. I feel like, and this is not me just trying to, like, create a rosier picture of history that might be like what we would want it to be. But I do think if a choreography or dance direction category never goes away and those type of conversations happen, I think it's probably more like, it's less likely that they would be including fight choreography in choreography and more likely. and more likely that we would get a stunts category much sooner than we did.

You know how much I like when I change my mind from the beginning of researching an episode to the end of researching an episode? I originally went into this being like dance choreography, fight choreography. We're going to judge them on equal levels. It'll be a mixture of the two. How fun will it be to try and, you know, balance out dance and fight? And the more I go through this, the more I'm like, there's no way these two things. could coexist. They would have to be separate. And also, we're doing an episode next week on

stunts. So we're going to save most of our fight choreography talk, if not all of it, for next week. But we do have to have this conversation at some point, too, because I will say, I won't say which, if it's this week or next week. There is one that I think, depending on who you're asking, could blur the lines. Well, and I'll, yes. would properly be placed. Well, and particularly when you're talking about stunts, there are stunt performers and there are stunt coordinators. And sometimes a stunt coordinator is called a flight choreographer.

And sometimes is it just a semantic difference? Is there, you know, a substantive difference? Would that require stunts then to be broken off into stunt coordination versus stunt performance, stunt ensemble? You know, like the sags do, it'll, you know. Wicked is a good example of something that could be not. nominated for both. Yes.

Yeah. West Side Story is a trickier circumstance. Well, okay. I guess you could do. Well, no, you kind of can. Here's an example that I stumbled upon when I was going through YouTube looking for compilations for both dance scenes and flight choreography. The Princess Bride has a dual scene between Mandy Patinkin and Carrie Ellis that, As far as I know, at least partially was the real actors, you know, doing that.

I think that's much more choreography than it is stunt, right? Maybe it's there's an elegance to sword fighting that I find a little less blunt, and maybe that's my own prejudice sort of coming out, that like, stunts are fight, fight, punch punch and like choreography is like graceful. And at the end of the day you're talking about movement, right? Yes. But I think when we talk about choreography, this is a little bit how I put it earlier, but to just like underline it, you would have to have specific rules about that it is set

to music or specifically to a dance, that it is in relation to a, I guess, I guess my mind is already rattling off a bunch of examples that don't necessarily have music underscored to them, like Mother Mary, for instance, has a non-musical dance sequence. Well, and action scenes at the very least are set against the score, you know what I mean? Sure, but you're not choreographing to that score. You're doing a fight sequence. Usually, right. Yeah.

It'll be an interesting conversation that we will definitely bleed over into next week when we talk about stunts. I want to sort of double back a little bit to, because we kind of like glazed over some of these kind of like, you know, really iconic, you know, movie musicals. And I wanted to sort of give the sense of, like, does Gene Kelly just go on like a heater in the 1950s and just win like, Does he have, like, ten Oscars to his name, you know? For choreographing this? Maybe. He choreographs some American Paris, singing in the rain, Brigadune, like, at the very least, those are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. But he basically choreographed everything he starred in at some point.

So, and also, like, if you have a category where it's like Gene Kelly and then a bunch of, like, non-movie star choreographers, he's going to have. a huge advantage in terms of winning whenever he's, unless there's like, you know, unless there's some animosity towards him. I can't imagine why there would have been animosity towards Gene Kelly. It's not like he has a reputation. Well, he had acting nominations. He did have acting nominations. I think it's something, if we're, if we're like still living in the land of hypotheticals,

which is very fun to do, it's maybe more interesting to like consider something like singing in the rain than an American impetka. Paris because American in Paris is a Best Picture winner singing in the rain famously not nominated for Best Picture. Right. Go see R. 100 Snubs miniseries. Yes.

Is there another, in 52, was there another musical that it would have been up against? Because that is an interesting question because like, hold on. Is that, is it also just more fodder for people who like to bemoan how the Oscars get it wrong in cases where it's like, can you believe they didn't even give choreography to singing in the rain? This is kind of a non-musical sort of year. You've got stuff like it's Moulon Rouge, but not that Moulon Rouge, you know what I mean? Like you have, but that Moulon Rouge is a best picture nominee. You have the Danny K. Hans Christian Anderson movie. That would have been like the, how green was my valley versus Citizen Kane of its day, if Hans Christian Anders.

ends up beating Singing in the Rain for dance, for choreography, because it was in general a more popular movie. Hans Christian Anderson got in total six Academy Award nominations. Singing in the Rain got... Didn't they get a special Oscar? Two. It got two. It got nominated for Best Music, Scoring of a Motion Picture, and it got nominated for... Screenplay?

Gene Hagen, of course, for... supporting actress as Lena Lamont. I guess that's not kind of an extreme case of the hypothetical, but I do think that there certainly would have been circumstances where it's like the Academy getting it wrong, for lack of a better phrase. One hypothetical I want to ask you about, especially since we brought up Fred Astaire, if we have a category through these eras that are appreciating that type of art. form and like recognizing it, keeping it in the conversation.

Do you think that helps a performer like Fred Astaire get more appreciation or does it just would having the category be a place where we'll give him a nomination? I mean, did he choreograph? No, you're right. Yes, you're right. But yes. So like is it a tool towards helping those kind of performers be more recognized? in history or does it ultimately make it harder for them to be recognized?

Will the Fred Astairez always be nominated for things like Towering Inferno? And not Top Hat. Right. Yeah. That's an interesting question. Because you have to imagine that like Top Hat's a Best Picture nominee. They knew it was good. You know what I mean?

It's not like they didn't know it was good. But in general, were song and dance performers less, you know, know, Danny Kay is a good example, right? Danny Kay, I don't think, give me a second now. I'm trying to think of, like, the great, particularly male, the particularly like the male musical performers of their day, Donald O'Connor, Danny Kay, I mean, Bing Crosby certainly got his stuff, but it's not like Bing Crosby was like, you know, a hofer or anything. like that. Yeah, Danny Kay never nominated for an Academy Award.

And then you've got things like, you know, White Christmas, right? Which is only nominated for the one Oscar for the song. Not that song for Count Your Blessings instead of Sheep. But, like, that's a really fantastic movie. You know what I mean? That White Christmas isn't nominated for costumes is kind of insane. Crazy. You know what I mean?

But it's also like you could have nominated, you know, any number of those performers. I was looking at, this is a little bit of a tangent. But it's also maybe, you know, a segue into, like, I think it was easier for women who were known for being musical performers to get recognized. Although Ginger Rogers is only ever nominated once and it's for Kitty Foil. So, like, you know, you know. But like Julie Andrews. I'm thinking of, right? Julie Andrews wins the Academy Award for Mary Poppins. There's the whole

My Fair Lady, you know, Mishigaz or whatever, but I watched the super-califragilistic XBeladocious scene as I'm preparing for this, right? That is a, you know, musical number that within that contains about five different Oscar-winning elements that like deserve to win Oscar. There's Julie Andrews performance. There's the costumes. There's the art direction

production design. There's animation. And then there's, there wasn't an award for it, obviously, but there's the choreography. There's the, you know, her and Dick Van Dyke sort of dancing. Make the argument for sound. Well, yes. And original song. You know what I mean? Like all of this stuff, all of this stuff. Mary Poppins is an interesting one because Julie Andrews sings but doesn't really dance, except for that super-calfragilistic expeditious. Dick Van Dyke is arguably as an actor, laughable. You know what I mean? And, of course, like, he's the legendary example of, like, Brits all, you know, make fun of the accent

because he's, like, the all-time worst bad British accent by an American. But his dancing's incredible in that movie. You know what I mean? Like, as a dancer, so it's just, like, if there's an Oscar for dancing, and that, and Mary Poppins, you know, is nominated or maybe wins. Do we have a better, do we feel better about Dick Van Dyke as a performer in Mary Poppins? Because he wouldn't have necessarily won. That's something he does well in that movie.

Well, but here's the other hypothetical that I also brought up in the outline. Do we, talking about, like, how categories evolve? If there is a choreography category from the 1930s that carries on, Do we eventually break that out into a best dance performance category? Mm-hmm. Because I'm thinking of particularly, I mentioned Donald O'Connor in Singin' In The Rain, who was one of the, you're never going to nominate Donald O'Connor. I mean, Singing in the Rain was passed over for a whole bunch of stuff anyway,

but, like, you're probably never going to nominate Donald O'Connor for the Oscar, but, like, make him laugh as an Oscar winning scene. You know what I mean? Like, he should have a trophy of some kind of. kind for that scene. Travolta and Saturday Night Fever is nominated for Best Actor.

But, like, John Travolta should have an Oscar, and that Oscar should be for dancing. You know what I mean? The other example I wrote down was Ariana DeBose for West Side Story. Ariana DeBose is a dancer first.

If that category exists, do we give Ariana DeBose a best dance performance Oscar and then somebody else with the best supporting actress? I can think of a ton of people, though. I can think of a ton of bad nominations. You absolutely could.

Julia Stiles. Unfortunately. Okay. But if Julia Stiles gets nominated for Save the Last Dance, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay in order for some of the great dance, you know, dance performances of all time. And I actually, and we'll get into this in a little bit. I actually would kind of love it if a choreography slash dance category were to, at some point, force the Oscars to nominate less highbrow things. You know what I mean? We'll get into it when we talk about the 90s.

We definitely will, the 90s and into the 21st century, for sure. But speaking of individual dance performances, because. you move out of the 1960s is probably the apex for big, full cast, pull the camera back, Oklahoma, the music man,

everybody's dancing, you know what I mean? Sort of like this, it's got, it's, you know, what began with Busby Berkeley moves into the sort of era of the Rogers and Hammerstein

movie musical, the, you know, the big production number movie musicals. And then, So you have those movies. And then you have dance films, dance performances, dance choreography nominees that are about choreographing one particular person as a dancer. I thought about Audrey Hepburn in Funny Face, right?

There's other dancing in Funny Face. But like if you're nominating that movie, you're nominating it for Audrey Hepburn. stuff. I thought about another round in 2020. But is that like a freestyle dance? Freestyle for lack of a better word.

But then you're you're if you're doing like a dance performance not that this would have been anywhere close to an Oscar. But I thought in that regard I thought of like Denny Levant and Beauchreve. That's an incredible example.

Yes. Right. But, like, there is choreographer input into that kind of thing. I imagine it's one of those things where, like, it takes a lot of work to make it look spontaneous. Do you know what I mean? But, like, those, a lot of those things are really memorable. And it makes sense, right? Because dance as a pure medium, you know, you talk about, like, you know, a ballet company or a dance troupe. Something that performs for itself.

I don't know what Maloha Snake you're talking about. Today we dance the Maloha Snake. But can you dance the Maloha Swan? But so then you move, you translate that into a movie. A movie is a character's medium, essentially, right? So it makes sense that choreographing from movies would be, would eventually become more tailored, to choreographing for a character, right?

And any sort of character moment. Does whatever Greta Gerwig is doing in Francis Ha, you know, her sort of individual dance performance? Pirouettes in the streets of New York. Right. How do you judge that up against something like a Magic Mike, which is a, you know, group, you know, choreography in the classic sense of like everybody is in sync, everybody is performing.

performing together. You've got to figure out how to get Kevin Nash to teach Kevin. Although Kevin Nash is a professional Kevin Nash. Kevin Nash Dance performance Oscar.

Kevin Nash is a professional wrestler probably had an easier time picking it up than maybe some of the other folks who didn't have any kind of experience in terms of like choreographed movement. But I do think since you invoked it,

our finest franchise would have at least two Oscars if there was choreography Oscar. I absolutely think so. Although, we'll get into the X-Machina discussion a little bit later. Magic Mike Double XL, XMachina, same year. True. But yeah, I do feel like something like another round, which does, you're right,

like it has that feeling of one person, you know, spontaneously bursting into dance. Creating a moment. Right. Another round, I should say, funny face choreographed by Fred Astaire and Eugene Loring. Another round choreographed by Olivia Anselmo. The other... disaster scenario that I thought of. Joker.

Tropic Thunder. Joker, another one, but Joker and Tropic Thunder would have both been nominated for best dance, for best choreography. I know. I know. And yet, here we are.

But yeah, the highbrow versus lowbrow conversation is also interesting. Does this, I thought of specifically my beloved Step Up franchise. And I looked up all the years of like my three favorite step-up movies

are two, three, and four. Step Up to the Streets is a 2008 movie. That's the same year as Slumdog Millionaire. I guarantee you Slumdog Millionaire wins another Oscar for Jaiho choreography at the very much. Step Up 3D, the best step up movie. 2010, same year as Black Swan. Benjamin Milpied is absolutely winning the Oscar for choreographing Black Swan and putting a baby in Natalie Portman. And also the controversy of Will Nile. Natalie Portman didn't do all that dancing. And to the point where they're like... Solved.

Her dance double was like 24 seconds of film or something. Well, now you get his and her Oscars. So... And then Step Up Revolution, aka Step Up Miami Heat, is 2012, which is the same year as Silver Linings Playbook, which also definitely wins the choreography Oscar that year.

Probably. Well, I do also just want to say it's really offensive that you have a... You have Step Up to the Streets and it wasn't Step Up for the Children. Like, that's clearly what that movie should have been. Same thing. Step Up to the Streets and Step Up 3D are both choreographed by Jamal Sims and Dave Scott. And then Step Up Revolution, aka Step Up Miami Heat, choreographed by Jamal Sims. AKA Step Up for the Children.

Right. Jamal Sims, Christopher Scott, Travis Wall, my beloved, and Chuck Maldonado. An Oscar for Jamal Sims, I am on board. 100%. Every time I see him on drag race, I'm like, should have an ice man. He should have an Oscar for at least one of those step-up movies. But I also thought of something like I made a joke at the beginning,

but like 2003's Honey starring Jessica Alba, probably should have been a best choreography nominee for the dynamite duo of Laurie Ann Gibson and Luther Brown. What a wild fun time. That's, that must have been. And then Dave Scott, another, you know, Dave Scott who choreographed a bunch of the step-up movies also choreographed Stomp the Yard in 2007.

But, like, there's a lot of movies. Oh, geez, that was Thunder. Jesus. Sorry, folks. It is weathering outside. Huge access out of your house. But there's a lot of movies that are, like, you know, poo-poohed and brushed aside.

And yet, you know, feature... expert level, like choreography and dance numbers, particularly, like, hip-hop routine, you know what I mean, like hip-hop choreography. Right. It's adjacent to a certain era of the makeup category when people were like, what do you mean the Wolfman is an Oscar nominee? It's gross. In this very particular lane. Sure, sure. I actually think this idea of the low-brow Oscar nominee would happen. even earlier than you're talking about.

Probably. I do think in the 90s, especially, particularly when there's fewer musicals. And I don't know if something like Evita gets a choreography nomination, though there is the dance sequence. There's the Buenos Aires and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, the MTV Movie Award best musical sequence and the Oscar for Best Choreography are maybe not that far apart. I do think you probably have Austin Powers International Man of Mystery. I think that's a choreography nominee.

I think that's a great example. Yep. I mean, Pulp Fiction would have another Oscar, even though that probably wouldn't be considered lowbrow. No, but you're right. Pulp Fiction absolutely wins the Oscar for choreography for the twist contest scene. That's a great example.

Yeah, but yes, 90s especially is when most of your musicals or your big musicals are animated. So where do you look for, for, you know, Where do we go for dance? Where do we go for dance? But then towards the end, every teen movie started to have that, like, one dance number in the middle of it. Your She's All That's. Your whatever that one with, obviously saved The Last Dance is a dance movie.

But like there was a Julia Stiles and Freddie Prince Jr. I want to say we're in a movie. Down to you? I think there's a dance number in that. Blast from the past has a dance number. There's just a lot of them. It just became like part of the formula. I do also think, again, turn the page back to the 1950s and 60s for a second.

A lot of these movie musicals are not about dance. They're about ethnic strife in New York City. They are about living in Oklahoma. They are about the King of Siam. They are about, you. Jews in Eastern Europe, you know what I mean? Like, these are not movies. But, like, as you go on, I do feel like, do you feel like movies that are about dance, Black Swan, you know, the step up movies, save the last dance, do those movies end up having in the same way that like movies about costumes get costume in the same way that Devil Wars Prada is a costume to sign nominee?

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, we mentioned the turning point earlier. Like the turning point absolutely. Yes. Though you're right to say that, let's get into some of these showdowns because the turning point is the same year as Saturday Nightfeber. Okay. So I wrote down, I wrote down a handful of what I would imagine would have been really iconic face-offs of like top nominees in their years.

I started chronologically, 1954, you get Brigadune choreographed by Gene Kelly up against. against Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, choreographed by Michael Kidd. I believe Seven Brides for Seven Brothers was a Best Picture nominee in 1954. Give me half a second to look that up. Yes, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is a Best Picture nominee. Did Brigadun get anything? It was nominated. Brigadun is nominated for Best Sound Recording, Best Art Direction, Best Art Direction, Best

costume design for a color film. So those three movies. Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is nominated for five. You'll be talking about Michael Kidd soon enough about a different movie. But again, I think Gene Kelly probably has the advantage because he's Gene Kelly. You know what I mean? He is a movie star. But this, I imagine, would have been like, kind of a clash of the Titans.

Well, in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, not that Brigadune doesn't have large sequences, but Seven Brides for Seven Brothers has like the big choreography. It's like, yes, when you talk about movies with like big, huge, you know, wide shot dance numbers, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is up there. But yeah, 1977 is the most interesting one, I think. That's the turning point, which, if you have forgotten, choreographed by Alvin Ailey and George Balangene, up against Saturday Night Fever, choreographed by Lester Wilson and Denitario. the turning point is notorious for being an 11-time Oscar nominee that doesn't win anything.

So you think, ah, but if there's a choreography Oscar, surely the turning point wins one Oscar. Nah, bitch. Because here comes strutting down the street, Tony Minero. And all of a sudden, in a Barry Gibb high note, you have now lost your 12th Oscar. Except I do think the turning point does. You do think so. I do. Because when you also have Travolta nominated, who is, like, the poster child for the choreography of that movie.

And the turning point is also a Best Picture nominee. I think the turning point wins. And, like, Baryshnakov was having his own moment, too. Baryshnakov is nominated for that movie. Am I just, like, also, like, hypothetically hopeful that it would give Alvinelial? Oscar. Right, right, totally. And I think what I love about this is that it is a real, you can make an argument either way. I also, though, feel like because there would have been no other way to honor the BeeGs, it's not like the BeeGs are getting a choreography award, but I feel like an award to, you know, recognize the general contribution of dance to that movie is maybe a way to, sideways give a nod to that BG's music that does not get nominated in things like original song. Even though what is it that the BGs had all of these songs and they're like, let's just put them all in an album for Saturday Night Fever or like, were any of them written originally for that movie?

I'm not entirely sure. They got multiple nominations. So per the rules of the Academy, yes. Well, no. They got more than a woman and staying alive nominated? Uh, no. Am I looking at the wrong year? 1977.

Saturday Night Fever is only nominated for Travolta. Correct. Oh, right. That's wild. I think we had this conversation back in 100 snubs where we're like, there's a lot of songs that you could include. Yeah. And we did not include staying alive.

Yeah. But it wasn't even nominated for a song score category, too. Like Prince would win for Purple Rain. Was song score gone by them? No, because if it, or it might not have, no, original song score and its adaptation score were a little night music. The winner is a little night music. Oh, right.

Yes, we definitely, I was over on the B sides this year talking about a little night music specifically, and it's like, you know, Saturday Night Fever is not nominated. Also, Pete's Dragon and the Slipper and the Rose, the story of Cinderella, no Saturday Night Fever. So, yeah, that's wild. All of that is very wild. wild. Next face-off, a little bit of a sort of like a micro face-off in that these are essentially scene, single-scene choreography nominees that I think would have been big that year. No pun intended.

No pun intended. Beetlejuice, Chrissy Bochino's nominated for her choreography for Beetlejuice up against Patricia Birch for Big. Patricia Birch who choreographed things like Greece, who directed Greece too. So big, you get the Tom Hanks, Robert Loja standing on a piano scene. Beetlejuice, you kind of get two of Beetlejuice. You get

the banana boat, Harry Belafonte song around the dinner table. And then you get floating Winona Ryder at the end, you know, with the conga line of football players. You get tail and jump into line. Yes. I think

I don't know. That piano scene in Big was so popular. Was just so popular. And if Patricia Birch at this point, she probably has an Oscar already at this point for Greece if there is a choreography Oscar. But if for some reason not, it's a chance to give Patricia Birch an Oscar.

Also, uncredited on Big for choreography, Paula Abdul. Uncredited. means she's not getting that Oscar number. I know, but I'm just saying. All right, 2000 is one I think is interesting because it incorporates fight choreography. Now, we have decided that we're not going to include fight choreography,

but I'm just saying this is the year of Crouching Tiger, Hitton, but if we're just doing dance, 2000 gives you Billy Elliott, Peter Darling's choreography for Billy Elliott versus Susan Stroman's choreography for center stage, and also Anne Fletcher's choreography for Bring It On. Now, obviously, Billy Elliott wins this in a walk, given its other Oscar nominations.

But yes, Billy Elliott wins this. You invoked it, so I will just say, and maybe I won't do it now after our conversation, and since it's been invoked on this one, I was planning on doing Bring It On for stunts. Oh, well, then we'll put a pin in that. Was going to be sure you could say that it's set to music. I guess you could say that it's choreography,

but things like tumbles and tosses, those to me are... Category is stunts, tumbles, and tosses. Stars, statements, legends, stunts, tumbles, tosses. No, you're right. But my argument is, from my side, if I were going to be devil's advocate, Brigadon has a choreographer character.

There you go. There you go. Who says a word we don't say anymore in movies. So that's 2000. 2016, I think, is also interesting. La La Land choreographed by Mandy Moore, not that Mandy Moore, the one from So You Think You Can Dance, up against Christopher Gateli and Misha Kushman

for Hail Caesar, for the Coen Brothers, Hal Caesar. Obviously, La La La Land was sweeping up awards left and right. Mandy Moore is going to win one for La La Land. You don't think that that particular race would have been affected by people saying the dancing in the movie is bad. Which is not a comment on the choreographer. I don't think the dancing in the movie was bad. I disagree with that.

But I think there were, in the environment, we were in at that point where La La Land was, was tarred and feathered as a Trump avatar. Then, yes, people said the dancing was bad. I don't think that, I think in particular, the opening number and the someone in the crowd number, I think the dancing is really good in both of those. There you go. Plus, you know, I love Mandy Morpham, so you think you can dance. By the way, they announced officially so you think he can dance has ended after like 18 seasons. Oh, I'm sorry. I had stopped watching, but like I, you know, what a wonderful show.

Andy Moore would have an Oscar. I do think that the No Dame sequence. It's so good. It's just so good. But that's at least a second nomination for Hail Caesar, a movie that should have had like six nominations. We do think that there should be an Oscar for any movie that's choreographing analingous jokes. I mean, yes. That's the rule.

That's the rule. That's the plan. Have you seen the videos of the SNL, the Tucker Carlson impersonation? No. It's really scarily accurate. All right, 2021. We're back from lockdown and we're dancing.

Christopher Scott for In the Heights, up against Justin Peck for West Side Story. Now, this is another one. Once again, West Side Story is some kind of amalgam of original choreography and at least homage. I thought this one didn't really use that much of the Jerome Robbins stuff. But it was like homage left and right to Jerome Robbins, right? In the way that like, it's sort of a skyfall thing.

It's sort of a Thomas Newman skyfall thing a little bit. I also just want to take the opportunity, as I often to, to stick up for In the Heights. In The Heights was one of those things where I couldn't be normal about it in the moment because I just like, Like, I loved the experience of finally being back in a crowded theater. Watching it back now, particularly, like, I love, 96,000 is so good as a number. I thought it was shot really badly. Well, there are so many very obviously green screen shots in there that I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? Because it takes away from these wide shots of everybody in the pool.

I thought the shot that, like, goes underwater and comes up was actually really cool. But, like, the green screen stuff is so shoddy that it, like, it really takes away from it, which is really too bad. But I think in general, I think the choreography itself, like, green screen is not Christopher Scott's problem. You know what I mean? Like, he's not, it's not, that's not on him. He's another so you think he can dance choreographer, by the way. At this point, when you're getting into like the 20, 15, 20 teens and 2020s, you're getting a lot of so you think you can dance choreographers, Jamal Sims and Luther Brown and

Lorette and Gibson and Dave Scott, all of those people were so you think you can dance people. Travis Wall, obviously. 2023, this one, I just think is interesting. Barbie, obviously, multiple production numbers, Jennifer White's choreography for Barbie, not only the duelika dance the night thing early on, but obviously I'm just Ken.

Up against Magic Mike's Last Dance, choreographed by the first two were choreographed by Allison Falk. This one was choreographed by Luke Broadlick and Leo Moktizuma. You are the biggest

Magic Mike's last dance fan that I know. I mean, it's our finest franchise. I do think there's no way Barbie loses that Oscar. I agree with that. Has Magic Mike already won twice by this point?

I think quite possibly it's won twice. Quite possibly. I think 2012 I think it probably loses to Silver Linings Playbook, but it gets nominated. 2015 is interesting because people forget that, like, liking Magic Mike XXL was a thing that, like, was a little under the radar initially. Yes. Once people came around on it, people came around hard.

Particularly smart female critics championing that movie. Yes. I will give it up all. Also to David Erlik at Indywire, who was an earlier champion of that movie, and to his credit. But 2015, in terms of dance choreography, there's not a ton else out there. You have something coming up in your picks that is from 2015 we'll talk about. But I don't know if that would have won either. So maybe Magic Mike's Last Dance is your...

When I picked it, I did not pick it. in mind with Magic Mike Double XL being the same year. I also figured we would be talking about the Magic Mike's in here so that I was like, I'm going to keep it to one obvious choice. I think double XL. That's what I'm trying to do with all of these. I'm like, I'm allowed to have one obvious choice and then do others. You have no problem for me.

I think Double XL is the most worthy of the three of them because it's doing a lot of different choreography. It's doing, you know, the house party stuff. It's doing the back street boy stuff in the gas station. It's doing the usual sort of like stage show stuff. There's just a lot of different stuff happening. Not to be like so. Here's how Magic Mike double Xll is like super califragilous. But when you were talking about how that sequence, it's like six Oscars right there because of all of these things working in tandem to make that an incredible sequence. I think that's also what's so impressive about the choreography in XXL because it's like, it feels like several different art departments, you know, riffing off of each other.

It feels like, you know, the choreography is in conversation with the cinematography. The choreography is then in conversation with the way that the movie is edited, the way that the movie is costumed. It is so, like, it. It's, you know, lots of creativity bouncing off of each other and creating this beautiful, pristine thing. Yeah. Also, Magic Mike and Magic Mike Double XL are two examples of movies that were this had Oscar Buzz movies that wouldn't have been this had Oscar buzz movies had there been a choreography category. I jotted down a couple more, both of which were from last year's May miniseries, actually. Strictly Ballroom in 1993 is definitely a choreography now. that year for John O'Connell. And this is a little bit more of a long shot, but I want to believe my favorite part of

white noise was the supermarket LCD sound system moment, which is a real, like, low-key, great feat of choreography. It's not not choreography, too. It absolutely is. It's, there's dance, but it's also just like, co-ordinated. coordinated like scanning of boxes at cash register. It's so, and it's so well-timed. Sure. Sure.

Like, I guess that's directing, too. I guess that's, you know, that's Noah Bomback. I think hairspray and burlesque are two obvious answers as well. We'll talk about, we'll talk about at least hairspray, but yeah. Burlesque, if nothing else, they could have performed Wagon Wheel Watusi at the Oscars. I'm just saying. I'm just saying, yeah. I think that's totally right.

Also, another one that would have been a slam dunk nominee and maybe winner in its years, the Fulmonte, the Fulmante, which I don't think won any Oscars, but was a, you know, oh, did it win? Yes, it did. You're totally right. It won comedy score. Yes. But I think it also probably, I can't think of any other in 1997 unless you're going to, does Titanic get nominated for the Irish dancing. Yes, it does. It's another nomination for Titanic. Throw another shrimp on the Barbie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm trying to think of what else in 97 then gets nominated, but that definitely, yes, that's... Austin Powers, baby. International Man of Mystery. Absolutely, it does. So already, you've got three really strong nominees in 97. I like where we're headed.

I like what we're doing here. Wait, what were some of the other Oscar nominated movies that might have had a chance in 97 for choreography? Full Monty, Titanic, Austin Powers. Any dancing in Mrs. Brown probably... Oh, in and out. All the dancing and Mrs. Brown. In and out, though. And Boogie Nights.

Right? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, Boogie Nights is one of those MTV musical sequence nominees, but it's literally just Mark Wahlberg. Yeah. And John C. Riley doing the point and point. Okay. In and out, I will defend.

Because the Kevin Klein breaking out into gay dancing when he's trying to like listen to the self-help tape. And then also, though, there's a conga line at the very end. And you know I love a good conga line. So I would stick up for in and out as a nominee. What else that year? Probably nothing from the sweet hereafter. I'm just going to keep making this joke about, like, serious movies that don't have musical numbers. My best friend's wedding, probably not enough for that o'clock. Well, the opening sequence,

you say a little prayer for you, isn't really dancing. They're all just sitting down. The opening sequence is more like posy than... And then you get that little bit of her and Rupert Everett dancing at the end, which is just sort of very basic, like, simple. It's not basic. I'm not going to...

It's simple. It's beautiful. It's wonderful. It's the best. Is there dancing in the fifth element, or is it just the opera singing? I think it's just the opera singing. Okay.

All right. Nothing in Men in Black. That's just the music video that I'm thinking of. Yeah. You know what, though? That's plenty. That's a lot of good. 1997.

Good Oscar year. Good year for our hypothetical dance category. Okay. So are you ready to present? We each have picked five movies that we would have given, happily given the best choreography Oscar two. You kick it off because you're the start. You're just the first chronologically.

As you might have expected, I am picking a choreographer featured in the Burt K. That literally was how I went and started looking people up. I looked at all the folks from that. Michael Kid, Michael Kid. Michael Kid. Yeah. Michael Kid.

I had to pick the bandwagon. And I sent you the Dancing and the Dark sequence. But like... Sittierre and Fred Astaire. The whole movie, worthy. Michael Kidd probably would have had multiple, uh, choreography Oscars. But the Dancing in the Dark Sequence in particular is just like, when we say that they don't just let you see people fucking dance on screen anymore. That's what I mean.

What is the bandwagon about? So the bandwagon is basically about how you can learn a lot by flopping. It's... It's like a set of, you know, musical, like, friends or collaborators, basically. It is a Vincent Minnelli movie. And they are, like, trying to make a musical and it's bad. And then at the end, it is kind of one of those, let's all rally around this great man thing. But I do think it's, you know, it's, you know, it's a musical.

about show business. You don't really need to know much more, but it is like, it's a Vincent Manelli version of that. And it ultimately is about learning, you know, collaboration and value through non-artistic success. Yeah. But then you have these beautiful like Fred Astaire Sidurys dance sequences and they're all in white in the dancing and the dark sequence in particular. And it's just, yeah. I'm being a pest, but I am also being fully honest when it is just like one of those sequences that is just like you just get the cinematic awe of watching someone dance. And it's, you know, the camera doesn't break from them and you get to see just the artistry of the body.

I sound so pretentious saying something like this. Listen, talking about dance gives you full permission to sound pretentious. I absolutely am a believer in this. You can't talk about dance correctly without sounding really airy-fairy, and you know what? You have absolute permission to do it. Right, right. It's just also, it's so incredibly cinematic, too. The, you know, we haven't really queened out on this dance episode, but like that is, that in particular is one sequence that I think of that it's just like, all you need is two bodies and some music.

Yeah. And it's as entertaining as it gets. One thing we haven't, this isn't my pick, but one thing we haven't really talked about in this episode very much is Judy Garland. And I do feel like a lot of those Judy Garland, Mickey Rooney, I'm thinking particularly of like Summerstock definitely feels like. Summerstock was one that I thought of. Summerstock absolutely wins the osse. That's 1950. So that is, I think that avoids, yeah, American in Paris is 51. So Summerstock would have been 1950. That's a real strong run. Red Shoes in 48. Summerstock in 50. American in Paris 51, singing in the rain 52. Like, you're just getting banger after banger. You're after year. My choice is a little bit later than that, but not by and much.

Panwagon in 53, I should add, keeps that train or running. Yep, keeps that train running. And then Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, I think we had said, was 54. Seven Brides for Seven Brothers versus Brigadune is 54. That's crazy. What a crazy run. Okay. Mine, as I said, a little bit later than that.

I went with The Music Man, the 1962 film adaptation of The Music Man, directed by Morton DeCosta, but choreographed by Anna White, who was a, certainly a prolific, like, Tony-nominated choreographer. Let me look up Anna's film credits for a second. I had this tab, and then I rebooted my computer, like a real dumb-dum. Such films as Oliver, Bye Bye Birdie, 1776, Pete's Dragon, Mame, The Great Waltz. The Music Man, though, does feel like career best work. So many of what, whenever I think of like old-style movies, musicals. The Music Man is the thing, you know,

you've got trouble, 76 trombones. I use it as a punchline all the time, but like, watch the Shapoopy number from Music Man. It's so much fun. It's so many dancers. They're just hoofing it like crazy.

You've got Buddy Hackett who can like, his version of singing is very funny in that it's mostly not singing, but it's like wonderful. It's just great. It just puts a smile on your face. It's really, it is classic, but it is classic for a reason. If you only know the music

man from that Simpsons episode, first of all, you'll be amazed how much the Simpsons pulls from that. Like, you know, little touches and stuff like that. But, and I'd only first, I'm one of those, like, you know, no, no, no zealot like a convert thing.

I'd only ever seen that movie for the first time a couple years ago because Katie had like badgered me into it essentially. Oh, I've only seen the music man. When Katie's just like, I've only seen the music man. When Katie. and I did the Manelli draft on screen draft. There you go.

There you go. Let your friends badger you into seeing movies. It'll improve your life. I'm going to pull that audio for whenever I tell you that you need to watch Let Sunshine Inn or something. But, like, I mean, you've seen the Music Man, I imagine. Yes, yes. I don't think I've seen the movie since childhood, but Music Man has never been the one for me.

Sure. But I appreciate the love for it. I do love a Robert Preston. Ever since Victor Victoria, I've been, you know, Robert Preston. What a guy. But yeah, it's just like, it's, I mean, I, you, there's so many movies of this era I could have gone with. This one just feels like if we're just talking about those big, again, like wide shot dance numbers, I'm just a sucker for it. Give me a parade of folks doing, you know, coordinated movement with, you know,

You know, I don't know. Old timey music. I love it so much. All right. Your next one. We've talked a little bit about it so far. Listen, I said that I'm allowing myself to have one obvious one in these things. A lot of this buildup throughout the episode is me being like, here's the case why turning point would have won that Oscar. No question.

But I'm here to say Saturday Night Fever should have won that Oscar. it's it's one of those movies first of all only getting one Oscar nomination I guess in what some way it's a feat because like it certainly in the even in the 1970s it didn't seem I don't know maybe that's not necessarily true because it's one of those movies the one thing if you get somebody to watch Saturday Night Fever their number one reaction to it almost always is that movie is so much darker than I thought it was going to be yeah yeah

absolutely everybody thinks this is really sort of like Like, you know, cheesy disco dancing. John Travolta slicking his hair back. Hey, don't touch the hair. Like, do, do, blah. It's actually about, like, toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity and, like, badgering a woman into getting an abortion and all this sort of stuff. Yeah.

It's just like, yeah. But how many classic musicals, classic dance movies, have an abortion subplot? Thoughts to consider. I'm thinking of dirty dancing. But anyway, well, you're talking about it. I mean. I think it kind of speaks for itself in a certain way. But I do also think my, maybe my impulse, though, I did just say something like the bandwagon,

which is this incredibly refined, beautiful, like, genre-defining work by Michael Kidd. My tendency maybe skews a little bit more towards the left-of-center oddball choices. And I do think maybe Saturday Night Fever would probably, be the original lowbrow choice for this category. Yeah. It existed. Even though that movie was very critically well received, it was a popular hit, et cetera, got Travolta his first acting nomination, deservedly so.

But it does so encapsulate the, like, athleticism of something that people were looking down their nose at as, like, a bad friend. Disco was so divisive. then. Yeah. My dad will still, like, apropos of nothing, mentioned how much he hated disco.

I'm just like, dad. He doesn't realize that it makes him look bad these days to say that, but like, ugh, whatever. Also, like, to a Donna Summer song, my man. Like, how can you hate that? I don't think it would work.

There's also just, like, the absolute iconography. of what he does here. I'm not here to shit on ballet. Turning Point has beautiful dancing in it. But, like, we remember that as a movie about dancing, but we don't remember the-dancing. Ah, ballet.

Actually, exotic. Actually, yeah. You know, that conversation in Independence Day was about the hypothetical best choreography race. Neither one of us, by the way, have hustlers on here, and maybe we should. Maybe we should. By that regard. Is that a stunt?

You know. Stunt stars and statements. Yes. I mean, it's both, right? Well, okay, no. Here's what I'm going to also say. Dance should also get to be about pure athleticism. Just because she's hanging onto a pole by her thighs.

It does not mean it's not dance. It does not mean it's not dance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. My next pick.

I, trying to choose a Fawsey, I kind of had taken for granted that you were just going to choose all that jazz and that I would, you know, free up a spot for myself. Again, we didn't even invoke all that jazz, but, you know, that was the type of thing that I'm like, well, we're going to talk about that. Or at least we'll be talking about Fossie. But all that jazz is not my Fossie. I respect all that jazz, but, like, I am one of those people who have not quite locked into that movie. If I'm going to choose a Fossie, it's going to be probably Cabaret. But Cabaret does seem fairly obvious.

But we should also mention that, like, in a way, all that jazz feels obvious, too. Which is why I'm going with Sweet Charity. Because Sweet Charity, to me, is some of my favorite, just on a pure dance and choreography level, my favorite Fossi. Cabaret does the thing too where you choreographed finger movements to the music but that thing where is it Cheetah Rivera in Sweet Charity

or maybe one of the other dancers who like during the Hey Big Spender number when like her arms like this and she drums her fingers in time with the music I was just like, it's all over for me at that point. Hey Big Spender's so good fucking rich man's frug is so like your classic example of like yes this could like lift fully out of the movie but like why ever would you want to do that you know what I mean it's just so wonderful um it's the perfect example of the wonderful excesses of the movie of the movie musical um and it's fucking charley mclean i don't know like cabaret gets its flowers and rightly so cabaret is one of the best movies of all time um sweet charity deserves It's flowers.

Also, I should shout out an uncredited Gwen Verden, who also helped to choreograph that movie. But, like, it's... All your Fossy signatures are there. You know what I mean? You've got them all. I don't know.

I just love it. I should go watch that tonight. Sweet charity, why not? All right. Your next one, your next one I love, so get to it. This is one I was trying to hold back on when I was saying that the 90s would be a great era for... Oh, another 97!

Another 97! Again, I was trying really hard to hold back on this one because we'd already kind of spoiled some of the ones that we've done. But I think in terms of... Maybe this would be too lowbrow for the Oscars, because it is kind of a joke sequence, but I am also dead serious when I say, gave an Oscar to Smith Words for the choreography for Romeo and Michelle's high school reunion. 100%.

100%. Because, I mean, I think that, for a movie that's like kind of iconic moment after iconic moment, which is like a specialty of the 90s, that that feels like the full bloom of the movie, that that is one of the things that you could talk to anybody about who has seen that movie and they will be like, oh my God, I love that so much. Yes. The dance sequence between Mirosorvina, Lucicudra, and Alan Cumming set to time after time.

Yes. Beautiful interpretive dance as comedy. But it's also just like you could say, well, that's just like silly choreography or whatever. But like, yes, it's achieving its objective. It's not the most difficult dance. But like dance can also make you laugh. Also, comedy choreography is kind of the calling card for the 90s. We've mentioned Austin Powell.

You get stuff like, I mean, I guess the mask is a comedy that has a dance sequence in it. But like the dance sequence in the mask is like bang on, like for real. Like there is like, you know, real, real good dancing in that movie. But like, I'm trying to think of other examples. I always do tend to chalk up the Zoolander walk off to like, it is in many ways a dance sequence. You know what I mean? There's coordinated motion and all this sort of stuff. But like that to me, even like, you know, the she's all that thing or whatever, it all feels to me like in service of comedy.

You know, the 10 things I hate about you, Julia Stiles dancing on the table to hypnotize, right? You know, these are all things where it's like all in service of comedy. By the way, it's one of my runners up, but I'll mention it. now. Watch the Golden Years dance sequence in a Knight's Tale sometime. Oh, absolutely. And just quietly die inside about Heath Ledger. Because, like, he's so beautiful and charming and young and, you know, move so gracefully and just, like, he, you know, that movie's role in making him a star is, has kind of been forgotten in the wake of, like, dark night and all this sort of stuff. But that was like kind of the thing. That like leveled him up in a big way. Um, and that scene in

particular is just, it's very cool, right? It's not like, um, you're not like abandoning all inhibitions for that dance sequence. It's very sort of like slinky and cool in 2000, early 2000s in its way. Um, but, you know, worth checking out for sure. Um, my next one. is a director choreographer double duty. You'll see this every once in a while. Usually it's when a choreographer levels up to director. And it's like, well, I'll still be choreographing, like Rob Marshall on Chicago.

We'll talk about Chicago after we get these. Will we? Yes, we will. I think it's worth discussing. Hairspray, though, is my next selection. We did a whole episode on hairspray. You can find it in our archive. Go and listen to that.

But I will just say that, like, all of the things that are good about adapting the Hairspray musical, adapting Hairspray the movie into the stage musical, into the movie musical, the dancing just gets better with every iteration. You know what I mean? It's just like the movie version of Hairspray is, like, the ultimate version. of the dancing in that. You can watch for everything

that is not ideal and divisive about the John Travolta performance, that's where it pays off. Where you get... So good. You finally get... What's the character's name?

What's the mom character? Edna? Edna. You finally get Edna who can dance, who can like really, you know, she's dancing like John Travolta. And so

it's, on the stage musical, it's, you know, conveyed, you know, completely differently where like, you know, and it has her big verse and then she like retires to the back for oxygen because like Harvey Firestein has, you know, isn't going to then, you know, hoof it for a minute. But John

Travolta's like, no, I'm just getting started. And now I'm just going to like, you know, pull out my moves. But everything in that sequence, again, just, just, I love a musical sequence where I can just watch the backup dancer. who are like the real, like, expert level of folks in this. Adam Shankman was a frequent guest judge on So You Think You Can Dance Around this time. This was season three when Hairspray came out.

And for Top 14 Week, they would do a group number at the beginning of the results show every week. And so he was the guest judge that week to promote Hairspray. And he essentially had the top 14 do the movie choreography for You Can't Stop the Beat. One of my favorite group numbers of all time. It's really, really fantastically well done. But like every, like, and it's not just that, you know, number, obviously. I think throughout the movie, it's really good. I think.

Though when you say the dancing and hairspray to me, I will immediately go to that one shot of the chorus dancer doing that giant leap spin kick in the air that is just jaw-dropping anytime you even fucking think of that shot. When they did that on So You Think He Can Dance, it was two of them doing it because, like, there were like five guys that cast who could pull off that move. So, yeah, no, it's fantastic. Love it. I will, Adam Shankman, they'll never make me hate you. I love that movie so much. All right. Your next one. One that we also hinted at earlier, Arthur Pitts's choreography for ex Machina. Here's where we're in a... It's an interesting case. A conversation for limited... choreography where we're talking about a single musical dance sequence that lasts maybe a minute and a half? Maybe. Like, it's pretty short.

But it's not even like a full length thing. Even like the simplicity of it, I think one of the great things about that sequence that I think now has just been like reduced to jiffs because we don't really talk about that. We think in JISC is. Asker Isaac has gone away a little bit So it's like we don't even really see those jiffs anymore But I do think the absolute absurdity of that scene in context With like the very like violent and you know Fraught movie that's around it

Is added by this like super cool sexy dance that's there just for its own sake kind of in adding into this, like, weird sexual environment that the movie is taking place in. Yeah. And just Oscar Isaac's incredibly dynamic performance. Yeah, that was one of the first things that I thought of when we proposed this episode. Yeah. Just because I think when I'm thinking of very distinct, memorable dancing sequences that are adding an interesting dynamic, but may not be in a musical.

Yep. That, I think, is an example. Yes. Absolutely. It was also one of the first things that I jotted down when I was starting to make my notes. I'm like, well, I got to talk about Ex Machina. My next one was the first thing that I wrote down, and is always the first thing that I think of when I think of great choreography scenes.

Step Up 3D from 2010, choreographed by Jamal Sims and Dave Scott. the heyday of the step-up movies. Step-up 1 is always interesting because, like, Step-Up 1's the one with... Channing Tatum shows up and Step-Up 2, but only briefly. Channing Tatum is the star of the first Step-Up. And it's the one... It's like the least essential step-up movie. It's not bad, and there is good dancing in it,

and Channing Tatum is a very good dancer. But, like, what became great about the Step-Up movies really didn't start till Step Up 2 the Streets. It didn't really come to a whole thing. until Step Up for the children. And in between... I will never let this joke talk. In between, you have Step Up 3D in 2010,

where this is the one where... Because there's like, there's a Save the Last Dance-esque plot construct to both the first two Step Up movies where it's like, guy from the wrong side of the tracks meets the girl who's a more refined dancer. That's the first one. And then it's girl from the wrong side of the tracks meets a boy who's in a dancing school in the second one. And then by the step up 3D, they were like, okay, we're going to like keep a handful of like the secondary characters from the second one.

Mostly Adam Savani, who is like this insanely good dancer who played a mouse. Mouse. God, I got that wrong. It's been a while. But they're like, we're just going to like have the thinnest, the thing. the thinnest veneer of a plot. And we're just going to mostly turn this into like an excuse for set piece dances. The most spectacular of which is the water dance,

where they're literally just having like a dance face off with this other group of guys. And Adam Savani, like, rides his little bike in and he accidentally like hits the water valve and the water comes up through the ground. And because it's 3D, of course, they're dancing in the water and are splashing. And every single time the water is going like up and. It's the only good movie from that, like, post-Avatar 3D craze where everything had to be post-converted to 3D and whatever. I was going to ask you if you actually saw Step Up 3D. I absolutely did.

It's so, like, that sequence in particular is worth the price of admission. I would, if they want a retrofit, step up 3D for a 4DX experience and re-release it into theaters, I will see that shit. I will be there, 100%. It's so much fun. 40X to Children. Yeah, exactly. Jamal Sims and Dave Scott, phenomenal choreography. This is also the era of like, oh, the dance, there was the dance battle show, America's

best dance crew on MTV. Like, there was just like, obviously, so you can dance had so much like hip hop choreography. It was just, you had, you know, a plethora of ways you could just sort of bliss out with really fun hip-hop choreography. And Step Up 3D really does. It has a wonderful place in my heart. And the main love story is fucking Moose and this other girl who's played by the girl from the Missy Elliott videos. Remember the little girl?

Sure. From the Miss Elliott videos? She's the love interest in that movie. It's great. It's so fun. All right. Your next one is one. It literally made me angry that I didn't have it on my list.

Oh, really? Because I... I totally spaced on. You got... You made the spreadsheet for us on this one, so I got to make my pick second on this episode. And I was like, if he picks this over me, I'm going to be so... Completely, I don't know why it wasn't at top of my mind because I watch this sequence all the fucking time. I mean, it is this... It is something that maybe comes down to one sequence, but it is a significant sequence.

There's choreography throughout the movie as well, but it's the opening number is... I had to try. choose one of the first things that I thought of as well. Nina McNeely's work for Gasper Noe's climax. So fucking good. So fucking good. The opening sequence set to Supernature is just like, it happens at the beginning of the movie too.

And it's fully just like, well, my work here is done. You can leave the movie. I don't love Gasper Noe's work, but that sequence like, yeah. Although I will say even when that movie gets really gnarly and very sort of like Gaspar Noah-esque, I stick with that movie. A lot of people are like, I'll watch the beginning of that movie and then peace out because it gets too, like, nasty. I stick with that movie the whole way through. Like, that, that movie lands for me, I will say. It does ultimately lose me at some point, but like, I'm still on board for the whole thing. And I do think that that sequence

does a lot. It's, it's this group number. It's all in one shot, but it's not just like a static camera. The camera is very much, like, in sync with the, like, massive bodies. Moves above them, moves around them. And then if you want to like interpret the movie in like a sociopolitical context too, you can do that. There's the French flag. There's the sequence. There's the racial stuff.

There's also plot in that sequence because who fucking shows up and takes her dress off like two thirds away through that is fucking asshole. Spoiler alert. Yeah. Spoiler. Who's the one who spikes the punch bowl with acid. Yeah. Also, it's a great example of very modern-day choreography, where I think, whereas the step-up movies were very indicative of where modern choreography was at that moment. Now modern choreography is very queer influenced, ball culture influenced, drag influenced, all this sort of stuff.

And so even when it's not strictly like jellicle ball-esque, like, you know, that kind of dance, you see a lot of that incorporated into climax. And a lot of that involves group choreography where everything has to be timed within an inch of your life because they're doing things like crossing the floor where they all have to be like an absolute. It's a full production too. It's a full production. But it's as much of a production as like what we were describing with seven. brides for seven brothers. Totally.

It's just an entirely different. It's very old school in that respect. And yet, within that, you have these dancers who get these moments to, if not fully freestyle, then, like, you get, like, the one girl who just does the quick sort of hand motion vogueing stuff. You get the duck walking. You get the, you know. The one where they, like, map around the guy where he, like, turns into this hunched over position. And then they, like, move.

Yeah. Yeah. Like three of them together. It's so good. And then he gets a DJ. It's like also just like incredibly simple like stagecraft for lack of a better word things that are happening. And yet there's like five moments in the sequence where you're like, this is the best thing I've ever fucking seen. I deserved to see that movie for the first time in a theater full of hyped as fuck like queer folk.

And ultimately I saw that movie for the first time in my living room by myself. And even still, I was like, fuck, yeah, this is so good. But like, man, I'm ready to watch climax at like any given point. I want to like. Where that movie goes. If I have a future like whatever, I get to screen a movie for like 25 of my closest friends, I'm, it's going to be climax. Like, that's the movie. And if people want to leave after the things start getting rough, that's fine.

But, oh, it's so good. It's so good. Climax is also an incredibly, maybe this just tells you the type of first I am. It's also an incredibly funny movie. You saw it at TIF, right? Yes. Oh, it is very funny. It's darkly funny, but it's very funny.

It's so funny. What was the screening like at Tiff? I did not go to the midnight mat. I am too old. No, you're, yeah. I've always been too old for that. I went to the press screening. It was full.

I remember a few people, this does not happen in press screenings. I remember a few people clapping for that sequence. Yeah? Like, yeah. Yeah. It myself included. Yeah. Fuck, yeah.

I missed it at that one. Also, I went from like that straight to box lux, which is that. Oh. I was probably initially like, I don't know about that. That's intense. That's intense. Climax. Listener, if you don't think that this movie is for you, go and at least give it 15 minutes of your time.

I forget how long the sequence, that shot is. I think it goes on for like three or four minutes. Well, it's the second thing because the movie. The very first thing you see, right, is the very end of the movie. And then I think when do you see the little, like, video auditions for the school? Is that after the dance sequence or before it? It might be through. It's one of those movies that, like, has three different beginnings, and I can never

remember the order in which the three different beginnings are. Yeah. Maybe the audition stuff is before that sequence, because some of the other stuff of the movie is it's at least largely cut to, it's maybe been a few years since I watched this movie. I probably watched it drunk during. You know I'm going to, once we're done recording this, I'm going to go and watch that sequence. Yeah. It's, the movie is supposed to be like an unbroken take.

Yeah. Yeah. Which of course makes the dance sequence even better. Yeah. And there's like small moments where you can see people fluff the dancing in the sequence and that's not just like that person fucked up. It's just like it's part of the like world that we're seeing. Yes. Yeah.

Climax. Such a good pick. All right. My final pick is we're back to Mandy Moore. I didn't realize that Mandy Moore had choreographed this scene in this movie. This is, again, another sort of choreography nomination for what is essentially one scene of a movie. But it's what I was talking about earlier when I was saying that, like, a lot of modern choreography for movies is character choreography, where you are doing something that, this particular dance is mostly there to communicate character stuff.

And in this case, it's to give the character resolution and catharsis at the very end of the movie. And it's Gloria Bell. It is our beloved Gloria Bell, where Julian Moore takes to the dance. floor somewhat reluctantly. Yes, she dances earlier in the movie and there's, you know, sort of social dancing and whatever. If there's one thing we should learn in this life is when Rita Wilson beckons you to the dance floor, you go. Even if you're not feeling it, even if you, she's already turned down a gentleman's offer to dance. And so Rita Wilson beckons her and she sort of heads in Rita's general direction. But then she ends up sort of in a small space all by

herself. And it's the best part, like, and it's one of those things where, because obviously this is based on Sebastian Lelio remaking his own film, original film with Paulina Garcia was the main character of first one. And we'd already seen and loved that version of the movie, too, before we saw this together. And that, so it's like, there's no element of surprise. And my favorite thing about that movie was the way it stuck the landing. And I'm like, oh, my God, it's got to stick the landing on the second one, or I'm just going to be unavoidably disappointed. And so there's also a very similar, but not identical, seen in the original film. But the choreography is different.

And I think the choreography, the ways in which the choreography is different is really crucial and telling where she starts to dance and she's sort of feeling it and then she stops. And then she starts doing this weird little like knocking on a door kind of motion where she's just like, knock, knock, knock. and she starts to get a little bit of rhythm, and then she does the, like, hand knives, where she's just like, and she's feeling it, she's feeling it. The whole point of it is she's free now.

She's doesn't, nobody's, she's dancing like nobody's watching. She's absolutely, doesn't look cool. She doesn't look whatever. She's not trying to attract anybody with this. She's just feeling free. And then, as in the first one, it ends with her just sort of like spinning around in a circle, arms akimbo and then

slam cut credits and movie I jump in the air every single time it's so good so proud of that being Mandy Moore doing that I also didn't realize

that Mandy Moore did the choreography for the Silver Linings playbook dance I think I knew that one but I memory hold Gloria Bell So like in real life she's probably a two-time

Oscar winner if this is a is if this category existed for Silver Linings and for La La Land But, yeah, you knew I had to bring up Gloria Bell. It fucking rocks. All right. Any honorable mentions from you? I mean, obviously, there are several.

I'd mentioned a few of them. Patreon listeners will know I am all up in my Mamushka shit lately. Yeah. I did have an honorable mention to the Adams family. All up in my Mamushka shit. If you played fantasy football, that would have to be your fantasy football team's name. I love it. Tonight we dance the Mamushka.

We do. I also, I was just, you know, thinking of some, like, more iconic dancing scenes. I thought of Jean-Lucidar's Band-Apar, also known as Band of Outsiders, which is really, I couldn't justify putting it in a pick, even though that's, like, a really famous scene. Because it's just, like, the same five dance music. Let's pretend for, like, I don't know, sake of argument that I'm not familiar with that movie. Tell me about the dancing event. That's, uh, it's like the three. friends and one of them is a woman and they're just like dancing in a club and they're doing

sounds like a dart three friends and one of them's a woman got it got it yep got it gentlemen and and they're just like dancing in a club and it's just these very simple steps but they repeat it's a repeated like dance for like five minutes or something crazy yeah um nice uh what else do i have in my other note pad i mentioned austin powers a million times but i'm dead serious um yeah I was trying to avoid musicals because I knew I would have the bandwagon in there. And I was trying to avoid, you know, the obvious Oscar plays. But I did think of Moulon Rouge, specifically the Roxanne sequence. Yeah, I was trying to think of like what in Moulon Rouge would I pick out as the particular dance highlight of that movie.

Because like, Elephant Love Medley doesn't really have dancing. Yeah. The come what may sequence isn't really dancing. There's the can-can at the beginning. There is the can-can at the beginning. And, like, yeah, like, diamonds are a girl's best friend. She's just really descending from the ceiling. I mean, Jim Broadbent hoofs it around for, like, a version.

So there is that. He puts a tablecloth on his head and everything. So there is that. I had, we mentioned the Full Monty. We mentioned Honey Daniels. I wrote down scent of a woman just because, like, that would have absolutely won for that year. The tango for the tango scene in that choreographed. Choreographers in that movie were Jerry Mitchell and Paul Palacano.

And we mentioned burlesque. We mentioned Greece, but I just want to bring it up again. Greece is such a banger movie for dance number. Like, multiple occasions where it's not just bolshe, but it's not just. Born to Handgive, but like the whole, like, born to hand jive, like, I'm the best dancer at St. Bernardettes with the worst reputation, you know, that whole thing. All of it great. All of it fantastic.

The summer loving scene where they're, like, dancing on the bleachers and whatever, it's all fantastic. Patricia Bird should go, bitch. I mean, if we're talking any movie that there should be a dance performance Oscar, obviously Annette Charles says Chauta de Rigorio. Thank you for remembering her name. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Absolutely yes.

I also want to mention Anthony Van Lass, the choreographer for both Mamma Mia and Mamma Mia, here we go again. Our gayest listeners are mad that we didn't have Mamma Mia. Here we go again, that final sequence in one of our 10 picks. One of the things that I think is particularly notable about these movies is you're choreographing for, yes, professional backup dancers. But also, like, you're choreographing for Julie Walters and Stellan Scarsguard and Colin and Firth and you know what I mean? You're not, you're, you've got degree of difficulty points here. And they make it so that it like, this is choreography that makes sense for everyone.

And, um, I don't know. I just love running through. Every time I'm reminded that they weren't really in Greece in that first one, I'm just like, obviously yes, when you think about it for half a second. But also it's just like they fake it really well in that movie. I don't know. Okay. I want to talk about Chicago.

Best Picture Winner, Chicago. There's no doubt in my mind that that wins a hypothetical choreography Oscar that year. That is one of the many Oscars. Just like any other category, there's going to be winners that people are going to dunk on. Rob Marshall does the choreography for that, sort of similar to Adam Shankman and Hairspray. Rob Marshall also was a choreographer who became a director. You know what I mean? That's sort of the trajectory of him.

I understand the whole Renee. Zell Weger is not a good dancer thing. But Catherine Zeta Jones, part of the reason she wins supporting actress, is she is a very good dancer in that. Also, I understand

that Chicago is a Broadway musical. But, like, gay guys aren't doing the fucking hot honey rag because of what they saw Erica Jane fucking do on stage, or Lisa Rina or fucking, you know, whatever.

or other reality. They're doing it because they saw the movie. And so whatever trickery or, you know, whether they're cutting the camera too quickly, they probably are, goes on in that number. The choreography of it is phenomenal and is memorable. And we've all seen, like, go watch the YouTube video of them rehearsing it again.

You know what I mean? Like, it's just, I don't know, it's fun. It's good. Yes, people would have bitched and complained. People would still be bitching and complaining. Wouldn't hopefully have not reached the level of like the Bohemian Rhapsody wins for editing thing. But I'm sure there would have been, you know, clip montages made of like, look at all this bad dancing in this movie that won the Oscar for dancing. Right.

I mean, like, I agree with that. But then there is also people being annoying. Kevin Zeta Jones does, I can't do it alone. And like... She does. She very much. much does. So, like, get off, I don't know. I don't know. And that way, honestly, and then Rob Marshall has an Oscar for Chicago. And, like, for all that you want to say about Rob Marshall,

particularly what he directed afterwards, he deserves to have an Oscar for Chicago. And he doesn't have one. So. And Roman Polanski has that director Oscar. Joe, before we head out, are there any other things you want to say about so you think we can do so you think you can dance specifically? Oh, I mean, that show holds a special place in my heart. I will say the times that they would do, because they had, like, their various genres of dance, you know what I mean? They had all the different ballroom disciplines. They had hip-hop.

They had contemporary. They had jazz. They had whatever. Whenever they would do, like, Broadway as a style, it always was, so it would essentially just mean, like, here's a very famous piece of choreography, and we're going to essentially, like, ape that. It was always a little underwhelming. And I was like, that's strange because, like, most of the people who, like, found good careers after So You Think He Can Dance found them on Broadway. Neil Haskell and Jessoprado and, you know, Thane Jesperson and all these sort of folks. Ariana DeMose, who was first out in her season of So You Think He Can Dance and now she has an Oscar.

But for whatever reason, that hairspray number really is the one that sticks out in terms of, like, doing movie musical choreography, right? But it was just a really lovely show. And for that sweet spot of like seasons two through eight, like, you couldn't beat it. It was so good. It was so wonderful. I loved it so much. Um, choreography Oscar. Joe, should there be a choreography Oscar?

One million percent. One million. There always should have been. It's the guy, the astronaut on the moon with the gun behind them. Like, it always has been. Like, there always should have been an Oscar. It should have never gone away. So, yeah.

If listeners think that we're being too positive on this May mini series, please go listen to us on the Patreon. Yeah. For our excursion, we talked about the Oscars fan favorite. Fan favorite? What's your fan favorite? I'm not saying every new category should exist. Yes.

Next week, though, we will be talking about one that will exist very soon. Stunts will be stunting hose in that episode, and it'll be fun. All right, folks, that's our episode. Thank you for hanging with us for another extra special May miniseries episode. If you want more, This Head Oscar Buzz, you can always check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscurbuzz.com. You should also follow us on Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz. Chris, where else can they find you? Letterbox and Blue Sky at Chris V. File.

That's F-E-I-L. Also this week, if you have Netflix, this Friday. Yeah, man. Check out Pop Culture Jeopardy, where you will see myself and friends of the show, Katie, Rich, competing on Pop Culture Jeopardy. How many of our French girls? Two of our French girls. Both resplendent. Should have been three, but.

Well, we... Maybe that'll be a Patreon special. Patreon special, I interview you two about your experience on Pop Culture Jeopardy and we'll... I don't think we're allowed to do that. You're not allowed to talk about it? I don't think we're allowed to do that type of thing. Well... In that official of a capacity.

We don't want them to take away the grand prize money from you. So, yeah. They're resplendent in red, I will say that. So the two of them. Red for filth? Who's to say? The note was, I need to have something red and I had one red thing in my closet. It's so cute.

The little terrier sweatshirt, it's so cute. I love it. Is that Boston University branded specifically or is it just like a red shirt with a terrier? It was a Christmas sweater I bought. I love it. Because you know Boston University are the terriers and their colors, I believe, are red and white. Well, God loves a terrier. That's true.

All right. You can follow me on Blue Sky and Letterbox at Joe Reed. It's spelled R.E.I.D. You can also find me at Vulture. doing Emmy coverage and all sorts of other fun stuff at Vulture. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Muvius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcast's visibility.

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