This Had Oscar Buzz - Class of 2023

Episode Date: January 29, 2024

It’s here! Our most awaited and beloved episode of every year! We’re here this week to look back at the This Had Oscar Buzz Class of 2023, celebrating all of the films that had some kind of Oscar hopes that managed zero nominations last week. We’re giving our categories a minor facelift, while still discussing … Continue reading "Class of 2023"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Melan Hack, Millen Hack and French. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh. Performance by an actress in a leading role. Annette Benning in Naya. Lily Gladstone in Killows of the Flower Moon.

Sandra. in anatomy of a fall Carrie Mulligan in Mysore and Emma Stone in Poor Things Hello and welcome to the This Head Oscar Buzz podcast The only podcast that takes you down to the asteroid city where the roads taste of salt and the girls are Priscilla Oh won't you please taste of things

Stupid So stupid Every week on this head Oscar buzz will be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and were here to perform the autopsy. Except this week, we're bringing you our annual post-nomination celebration of the past years' opefuls that didn't make it.

I'm your host, Chris Fyle. I'm here, as always, with my boy in a boat, Joe Reed. I am at a boat. I am in a boat floating down a lonely... A lonely current, and that current is the current that is taking me away from Barbie snub discourse. I've joked before that Dunkirk is about Twink's drowning. Yes, you have. The boat is about Twink's rowing.

Joe, you brought it up two minutes to talk about the two Barbie nominations that didn't happen. And I say that specifically to not call them the Barbie snubs, as everybody seems to be calling them. It's the most succinct way to say it, even though you're right. It is, it's contributing to the problem to do that, that way. We are nothing if not contributing to the problem, generally speaking. We did not contribute to the problem as much as say like Hillary Clinton contributed to the problem. I'm just going to say.

I mean. Hillary, read a room, read a nation. Like, not the time, not the time nor the place, please. Not necessary. Anyway. The Pokemon Gold or the Poles energy of, that tweet could not be measured on by terrestrial means like that was out of this world anyway so no the occupational hazard of somebody who um is the kind of dork that i am and does the kind

of podcast that we do i get you know asked by the people in my life to weigh in on whenever an Oscar thing breaks through to the mainstream which clearly this had um my parents who And then we sound like crazy people because when you have to explain like the context to people who don't get it and like a lot of them being, you know, people who maybe saw three movies last year and Barbie was one of them, of course they don't understand. And like they don't engage with the Oscars, et cetera. Yeah. My parents whose media diet is like 70% MSNBC and that is a low estimate, asked me about it. So clearly it has made the soft news portion of the cycle. and it's, on one hand, I'm tempted to, like, get into the nitty-gritty of it all, which is that, like, yes, they were left off. Yes, it was a very competitive year. It was a very good year for movies. The director's branch is different than the other branches. They have more of a, you know, a perhaps more pitiless character when it comes to things that Hugh commercial, perhaps? We don't know. Um,

Are there, whatever, then get into the side conversation, which is it's tough to blame the patriarchy for Margot Robbie's omission, considering she's in best actress. There were no, her nomination was replaced by other women. I do find it hard to believe. The Oscars are not voted on by the Luminati in a room that says we will nominate Ryan Gosling and not Margo Robbie. Right. Well, that's another thing. Also forgetting that America Ferreira was nominated by the actors. Trying to explain to people that, like, a snub in one category really doesn't have anything to do with a snub in the other category. It structurally cannot.

Explaining branches to people who don't understand movies, let alone the Oscars, is, like, a whole three-hour podcast episode in and of itself. I find it hard to believe that the patriarchy set all of this up in order to ensure a nomination for Annette Benning and Nyad. I just don't see that as their ultimate goal. And at my most sort of hot takey, not to be hot takey, but like not every thing that does not go the way we think it should go is necessarily a structural problem. And especially Margot Robbie not getting nominated and best actress. Yeah. Well, but here's the other thing too. The thing that I keep coming back to, and I've thought about this a lot as,

the past week over on our Patreon, see link below. We've been running a top 10 ballot for our listeners and people have been sending in their top tens. We don't know Oscars voting totals and all evidence otherwise points to likelihood that they could have been, both Margot Robbie and Best Actress and Greta Gerwig and Best director very likely could have been sixth place. And if they weren't in sixth place, there still was a lot of competition. And as I've been, you know, running these vote tallies from what our listeners are putting in, and I see what, you know, we're not the academy. We are not

10,000 people, you know, we would love to have, you know, 10,000 ballots on these votes. But these They do, and there can be real fierce competition and even real fierce competition in things that you're not expecting. Yes. Just the way that the numbers work out, there can be a lot of contenders in any type of voting like this that can be very, very close. And I think it's hard to even call it a snub. when it's like all signs point to they were very, very close to a nomination. I don't even like, you know, the excuse of saying, well, the director's branch is snobby. And it's like, yeah, you're outlawing all sorts of terms right now that I've been using.

So I've got to work on my vocab. I mean, even saying that, like, I think directors branch is saying that it's snobby, but it's just like, okay, but all signs were still that Greta Gerwig was very close to being nominated. So in the case of Barbie, like, I don't know. I'm on record in the past as saying, I am using the S word here, as saying it's good that the Oscars are snobby. It's necessary that the Oscars are to some degree or another snobby. We certainly don't want them to be exclusive. We don't want them to be discriminatory. But, like, the snobbiness of the Oscars is what makes them the Oscars.

And to a degree, we want them on that wall. We need them on that wall, kind of a thing. that's sort of where I come down to with the Oscars. Now, Hollywood, I think, Hollywood being less snobby is maybe where you want to direct your energies. More opportunities for women overall will end up reflecting more opportunities for women in awards. I think it's understanding that the dog wags the tail and not allowing your perception of the Oscars to get the idea that the tail is wagging the dog here.

It's getting the movies made. it's getting them promoted, it's getting them pushed into Oscar campaigns, it's getting, it's on critics to see them, it's on audiences to see them, you know, because all of these are contributing factors and all of those contributing factors need work. I think you can bash your head up against a wall a lot trying to legislate around the taste of other people who are not you. And it ultimately, you on some level, have to accept that in large, enough numbers that, like, you know, the taste of the Oscar vote probably don't reflect, sometimes don't even reflect the majority taste of the Oscar voters. It's just a matter of, you know, that's what happens when you're voting in large numbers. And I think if, you know, a bunch of people saw the commercialism of Barbie and caused, and that caused them to sort of slot that movie lower down their list because of that, I would disagree with those people. I would

probably have a frank and open discussion with them for 30 minutes that involves me, you know, talking about the kinds of things that Greta Gerwig and Margo, Robbie, were able to do with their film to turn that into some kind of an artistic, you know, statement about that. But ultimately, I can't cause somebody, I can't force somebody to like or respect something more than they do. And I can either give myself a concussion over that, or I can just accept the fact that, like, sometimes the Oscars will disappoint me. And this is, this will maybe be my final word on the subject. And I think it's something that you will... I'm of the position these days that the Oscars will more often than not disappoint me. So, like, and I'm still, and I'm still

Still here. Still here. And even disappoint feels a little too strong for what I'm saying, because it's like, I don't, I think I, maybe this makes me sound like I'm more evolved than I am. And you can, you know, find the receipts that probably would find plenty of receipts to counteract this. Receipts, screenshots, timestamps, whatever that quote is. Do you watch Salt Lake City at all? Or are you just getting that from the internet internet? I am on the TEL. I am on the timeline. Do I need to watch any real housewife show? I get all the good stuff on the timeline. That's totally true. Anyway, what I'm... This is not true of the traders, listeners. Do not think that my thought process applies to all shows. We can't talk about the traders. We'll be here all day. Um, what I'm trying to... I did earlier call, uh, myself the Fadra of this podcast and Joe the Parvity of this podcast.

had a portion of this podcast that we did off Mike, and I can't work our way back to the part where Chris used a Fadra line to shame me, and we decided that Chris was the Fadra, and I

was the Parviti. Which is true. No one likes me in this castle. Anyway, Well, that wasn't true of Fadra. Anyway, keep going. We can't talk about the trick. That's what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. The lie that I'm going to say right now is

that I don't need the Oscars to validate my taste. And it's a lie that's only, like, partially a lie. And it's certainly a thing that I think is an ideal, is that if I needed the Oscars to validate my taste, I'd have stopped watching the Oscars a long time ago. Because what would be the point? I think the Oscars are a time capsule and a conversation piece and a lens through which to view a thing that I love,

which is called movies. It's not the only lens through which I view. It is, I'll admit my preferred lens because it appeals to 12 different mostly gay things about me. But, like, it's a thing, you know, whatever, whatever. I think the reason why it remains somewhat of a preferred lens for me is that it is, I find it very useful as a marker of time. Yes. This chapter is now over. And ultimately, we love these artists.

I love filmmakers. I love actors. God help me. I probably love them more than I should. I love actors. I would like to state for the record that Joe Reed is a ground level Greta Gerwig fan. So if anybody thinks that he's being too soft on the academy right now.

I go back as far as House of the Devil. Like, I know people go back farther than that, but like that was my ground level. If they go back further than that, then they're mumblecore fans and they should be ashamed. Fair. Fair. But anyway. I'm pretty sure House of the Devil was before Francis Hobbes. Right. This is the thing. I have, my, my Greta Gerwig Bonifides are secure. Probably more secure than a lot of people who are doing this very, very loud complaining this year.

My Margot Robbie and Barbie bonafides are certainly secure, not to spoil upcoming guest appearances I will have on other podcasts. But like, catch me on the right day, and that's my number one actress performance of the year. I think she's astoundingly good. And you were there on the text chain when I walked out of that movie. And I said, Margo Robbie better fucking get an Oscar nomination for this role. So, like, I get it. I get it. I get it.

But ultimately... The thing is, it's also the Academy is 10,000 people across all branches. That is a lot of people. And I think the more, like, the higher the numbers get, though, like, I think the Academy does the right thing of, like, including more global things to include more taste, but I do think that the more, like, the more cooks are in the kitchen, the more likely you are to get basic food. And I think it is still somewhat of a miracle that even though a movie that was beloved by so many people, but a movie that is as strange and weird as Barbie, having eight Oscar nominations is uncommon. Yes. And that's great. And a billion

dollars at eight nominations. Like, we've, we've had this conversation. Remember when everybody was all up in arms about Spider-Man and how Jimmy Kimmel was out there being like, why do the Oscars refuse to nominate, you know, movies that people liked? If Spider-Man had gotten two Oscar nominations of the kind that Barbie got, those boys would have been wetting their pants with glee. Do you know what I mean? Like, Barbie is the example of the Academy recognizing big blockbuster movies that everybody went out to see. And honestly, Oppenheimer's same thing. Do you know what I mean? So, like, we've had, this has been the conversation all year. Um, but anyway, yes. So to, to, to, um, to sort of close it out, I don't know, I don't know.

I don't know. Remember when I said two minutes to talk. I would, that's what I was going to say. We went on for like 50 minutes. Anyway, par for the course, par for the course. Yeah. We're here on what we can safely say is our most popular episode of every year. Speaking of Marking Time. Yes. Joe, it's time to honor the class of 2023. Honor the people. Honor the film.

Yes, of 2020. We also want to, well, we have to thank our listeners as well because not that we are the only podcast that this happens to on Oscar nomination morning, but that is the day that we get the massive influx of people recognizing our show and saying, well, at least we'll get an episode on this. at least we'll get, you know, an episode on that. Can't wait to hear the class of 2023, which I feel like in our doing this, we're talking about when it's in the context of, well, at least we'll get a this had Oscar buzz episode on that movie.

We're always like, yeah, but we would also love to not be able to talk about that movie because we think that movie deserves Oscar nominations. That's what the class of 2023 episode, the class of any year's episode is all about. It is a very sweet and flattering thing that we hear from our listeners. So we just want to send a thank you for that. Well, and it's, yes, it's always a little bit surprising to me how many people are out there engaging with our podcasts. And we really love that. Chris, why don't you tease our superlatives episode that is coming soon to the Patreon? And through that...

And talk about our Patreon listeners by now. You hopefully know. but if you are looping back to us after a year break or you're a first-time listener, we have a Patreon. We call it this head Oscar buzz turbulent brilliance. It's only $5 a month. What are you going to get with those $5 a month? The first of which is our exceptions episodes.

These are movies that manage to net an Oscar nomination or two, but still manages to feel like the type of movie we would be talking about. Those arrive on the first of every month. What have we talked about with those? We talked about the mirror has two faces. Rob Marshall's 9. Our listeners chose the lovely bones for us to do. We're going to be doing Molly's game soon,

which our listeners have just recently chose. Coming right up, we're going to be talking about the great and hopefully winning an Oscar this year, Paul Giamatti, in the less than great Barney's version. Bet you forgot that Barney's version got a makeup nomination.

It sure did. Then the second episode you're going to get, we call them excursions. This is where we do deep dives into ephemera that we obsess about over here on this had Oscar buzz. We go and we talk about Hollywood Reporter roundtables. We've recapped awards shows like the 1996 MTV Movie Awards. What else have we done there? We've went to Magic Mic Live and talked about it. Yeah.

Uh, but the coming month, we're going to be doing kind of like our Patreon version of the class of whatever episode. But, um, but if we picked the winners of the weirdest awards that are available across awards season. Yeah, like all of the goofy awards that happened throughout the award season. We're calling this head Oscar, but superlatives. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's coming on the 15th of February. It's going to be a banger. And also, we have our listeners involved.

Our listeners are going to basically pick the best pick. picture category for us. We are going off of Tiff and calling it the Grosch People's Choice Award. Shut up to Grouch. They're not sponsored by Grosch. Send us money. We're doing this anyway, but Grosch send us money. Yeah, Grosch, uh, maybe send us a beer. I don't know. I'm not a beer drinker. But, uh, the listeners are choosing their top 10 of the year. And if you are not currently a subscriber to the Patreon and you still want to be involved, go over onto the Patreon. As of this episode airing, you can still vote on the category because, on top of polling everybody's top 10, much like the Oscars, we're going to run a preferential ballot.

You guys have no idea how dorkly excited Chris has been to tabulate a preferential ballot. And I will say, as somebody who, like, did this on Twitter one year because I was also dorkly excited about tabulating a preferential ballot, I get it. I really get it. It's been so lovely to watch. How many people submitting did you get? for that when you did that. Oh, gosh. It was so long. It was like several years ago. It was not a ton, but I couldn't tell you, below 50. You know what I mean? Cool. We currently have about 250 ballots.

That's pretty good. But not all the garries have done it. I get it. Maybe you haven't seen 10 movies or 10 movies you would vote for. Some people have literally submitted one movie. Not many, but there's mid maybe 1%. But that counts because you can also do that. As an Oscar voter, so yes. An Oscar voter can do that as an Oscar voter. So this is kind of like our sampling of what it would, what Oscar voting looks like. Yeah, yeah. But you can go over to patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz for $5 a month.

Join us and have some fun, get loud in the comments, and we hope you like the bonus episodes. Come play with us, Danny. Joe. Yes. the rest of our housekeeping before we get into the class of 2023. How's the movie's Fantasy League going on over at Vulture? It's a wild scene right now. So we have now passed the Oscar nominations,

which are the biggest influx of points that we'll get until Oscar night. Oscar night is where the big money players come to play. All of the awards are worth a ton of points, so there's a lot of swing that can happen. but we are at a very interesting stage right now. There is currently a seven-way tie for first place. That has been the case for the last few weeks. Oscar nominations did not change that fact.

We have to applaud the Gary's because we have three Gary's in that tied for first place. Yep. Shout out to Pigeon Dr. Bob 2 and Thank the Pig, all of whom are in the seven-person scrum in first place. are also Gary's member Cherisa May December is in eighth place right behind them only like less than 40 points behind them also in the top 20 are

rosters Pork and Heimer Chris didn't think that I got the joke of Porkkenheimer that it sounds like Pork andheimer like a pig version of Oppenheimer I did get it I just wanted to point it out But you phrased it like see if you say it fast It sounds like Porkenheimer

Because that's the thing I wanted to point it out Jesus Christ You're surprised to know that there will be a category coming up about movie that's going to make us fight because we disagree on things sometimes Imagine we are not a monolith on this how Oscar was two people Also John Wick for Oscar and Greta Gerwig reveal

All in the top 20 are garries are kicking ass We love to see it But the other thing that's interesting about this scrum in the top seven is they're all identical rosters. So the rosters are, and I'll start with the sort of biggest Oscar players, the rosters are, poor things, Barbie, the holdovers, anatomy of a fall, American fiction, the boy and the heron, all of us strangers, and Taylor Swift, the heiress tour. So all of a strangers, as we'll talk about very soon, zero nominations. Taylor Swift, the Ares Tour, made a lot of money, but, like, it's made all the point, it's gotten all the points that it's going to get. But, you'll notice who's not on that roster is neither Oppenheimer nor Killers of the Flower Moon, which are two multiple, multiply nominated movies, and which all both stand the chance to win a lot of awards.

The Oppenheimer rosters, just by a quick eyeball, are still, like, lurking. several hundred points behind at this point, that's make-upable, considering the points that are available, especially on Oscar night. But it is not certain. And that Oppenheimer stands to win multiple awards, including Best Picture. Right, exactly. But there are enough contenders in that scrum of poor things, Barbie holdovers, anatomy of a fall, certainly. Boy in the Heron and animated. that those rosters could stay ahead.

Now, there will be Oppenheimer's rosters that have poor things. There will be Oppenheimer rosters that have Barbie. But, like, there's a lot of ways that this could go, is what I'm saying. And I think it's going to be for an exciting six weeks where we really don't know what's going to happen. And I kind of love that. Last year, it seemed like it was pretty, last year was also very exciting. But last year, to me at least, it seemed to be that, like, it was just a matter of time before. the Everything Everywhere all at once

rosters took over and there was no looking back and that may be the case with Oppenheimer but like I didn't check I should have maybe checked before this but like I think by this stage the Everything Everywhere All at Once rosters had already made their move

and yeah because it was winning a lot already but and I mean maybe maybe we'll see how the points fall out because like I could see you know Oppenheimer walking away from SAG with only a win for Robert Downey Jr. Well, and even with SAG.

I could see BAFTA maybe spreading the love more than the Academy will. Yeah. And even with SAG, it's just, you know, points are limited, right? So even if Oppenheimer wins, you know, something there. But like, yeah, so it's, there's a lot of ways that this can go. It's all going to be very exciting. I think if you sign up for the league you'll get on our newsletter. distribution list. Now that the points are mostly in, there will definitely be points updates as we

go along. But I'm going to be in a much more analytical mode, I think, as we go on, in terms of talking about the most high value drafted movies, talking about, you know, where certain rosters are. I'll get into talking about... Nerd shit. We love it. Nerd shit. Exactly. The podcasters league and whatnot. So come and go to vulture.com. slash movies dash league check where your roster sits check where you sit in relation to your friends um brag to them as is necessary currently in our little uh group chat chris is in first place in the podcaster league katie rich would be inclined to brag if i felt like that would stay that way it's not going to have katy rich is in second place in the podcasters league and i sit in fourth so what i'm saying is

that Everest episode was too powerful. And ultimately, we really... In our Australian Patreon episode. Too powerful. All together too powerful. Anyway. All I'm saying is that Gary's, when Joe wins the podcaster ranking, you need to all tweet at him all caps rigged.

Last Refuge. I think you, my friend, are going to lead the podcasters. Loseer behavior is what I'll say. to that is uh that that's big big big time losing behavior um no if i win the posth if i win the podcasters league after winning the vulture staff league last year i maybe um should be forced to go non-public rig tina uh uh riga morris as they say morris has been uh has been up to his tricks okay chris class of twenty twenty three it's the class of twenty three as a refresher for We're going to break these down into some fun categories.

What you'll find this year for the class of 2023, we're giving it a little facelift, a little refresh. The class episodes are not on Ozempic, but they have been touched by an angel. You've been touched by an angel girl. That's my favorite line from bringing on. I love her so much. All right. So, like, we think moving forward with these, the categories will be somewhat vibes,

you know, categories will just refresh every year. Maybe they'll be similar, but slightly different to past categories. Much like Michelle Pfeiffer, they will have such gradual alterations throughout the years that you will never, you'll never know quite exactly how touched up they've been. Is that a good, is that a good comparison? I was going to say, much like Michelle Pfeiffer, these categories are coming into your home unannounced with a bright green bra and making lemonade.

What is that from? How dare you. Is that a hairspray reference? It's a mother reference. Oh, oh, a bright green bra. I never think about that as her character and mother. It's all about the hair in the face for me. When they're doing laundry, she like has a...

I know what you mean now. Yes, yes, yes. No, for me, it's always that intense look in her eyes. Incredible performing. All right. Maybe I need to watch Mother again. So, listeners, you might have some fun new categories. You might have the same categories with a little twist.

Yeah. And then, you know, it's all leading up to what we think the valedictorian of the class of 2023 is, the movie that we should first do an episode. Yes. Joe, why don't you kick us off? Yeah, just to sort of set the stage, we tallied between Chris and I upwards of 35-ish movies that we're going to talk about here,

all movies that at some point, in some way or another, had some degree of Oscar buzz and ended up with zero nominations. So, the very first category is what we're calling the Parasite Basement Prize for most

surprising, in this case, most surprising snub, even though Chris was a... Most surprising member of this class. Most surprising member of the class of 2020. Surprise. We're most surprised that they are here at all. So... That it is, you know, part of the narrative.

Yeah, exactly. I think my pick for this one, in terms of a movie that up until Oscar nomination morning, I was pretty certain would show up somewhere on the ballot, and I'm kind of a surprised to see it here at all is Ferrari, actually, Michael Mance Ferrari. I know supporting

actress was very competitive, and ultimately it was America Ferreira who got the most surprising nomination. I thought Penelope Cruz was in the conversation right up there until the end. As I've mentioned on a previous episode, I got much more bullish on her chances once I saw the movie, and I saw she's fucking tremendous in that, which... Incredible. Perhaps maybe led me astray a little bit. but she did get that SAG nomination. And not BAFTA or BAFTA? I thought she was...

I thought there was something else, but maybe not. I don't know. This is... I have too many lists swirling around to my head. Also, I've been sick all week. Um, no, I think besides Penelope Cruz, there were a few places on the short lists, I believe that it ended up, uh, specifically in sound.

I think normally the sound a branch likes them some vroom vroom. And didn't they nominate Ford versus Ferrari in that category if I'm not mistaken? Uh, correct. Did Ford versus Ferrari win that sound? Hold on. I don't think

Ford versus Ferrari has an Oscar win to its credit, but give me It won editing. Did it win? Definitely one edited. That's so weird and dumb. I'm sorry. Give it to parasites. Sorry. Well, also, like, wasn't that the same year as 1917, which had its weird, like, single-takeiness or whatever?

Oh, wait. Maybe. I don't know. Ford versus Ferrari won long. It won sound editing, which was the last year that sound and sound editing were different. So it was nominated for both. It won sound editing. So now the categories are combined. No, it won editing, too.

I was right. Raziness. Was 1917 even nominated? I'm sure it was. Hold on. Or was that the one thing where they're like, you didn't edit it at all? Even though they definitely did. Why is this category buried at the bottom?

I don't know. I don't know. Anyway. 1917 was not nominated in that category. Yeah. The other nominees were the Irishman, Jojo Rabbit, Joker, and Parasite. Obviously, they should be giving it to either the Irish. Jojo Rabbit.

Jojo Rabbit. Like, I am far from that movie's biggest hater. I think that movie is all right. And I think, I definitely don't despise that movie the way some people do. But an editing nomination is a bridge too far. I'm very sorry. All right. They should have given a nomination there to, um, nope, thinking of the wrong year.

Thinking of the wrong year. I won't make you say it. Okay, anyway, though. I was thinking of a Star is born because I don't think a Star is born got an editing nomination. And like, they should have gotten an editing nomination for just making the audience believe that various New York, New Jersey, and Los Angeles. locations are all in the same city? Sure, sure, sure, sure. Ferrari was also on the shortlist for makeup and hairstyle,

and I'm less surprised that it didn't make it in there. But, like, this is a movie with some impeccable aesthetics, plus one really great supporting actress performance. And it just seemed like a movie that would pull one nomination. I think it's also this can be where we, once again, bitch about how the Oscars Crafts categories are just narrowing, in these later years in a way that is a bummer. What did I write?

I did the, so I did an article for Vanity Fair this year where I did sort of a by the numbers reaction to the Oscars, different facts and figures, whatever. Since this is a bugaboo of mine, I made sure to tally it up. And only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 movies that were not nominated for Best Picture ended up in craft's categories that were not visual effects or song. I think we can accept that like song and visual effects are two categories that we can sort of, you know, expect to be... Commonly placing movies that are not really the best picture.

But in all of those other crafts categories. Sometimes you could even argue sound. Sound in recent years has moved more towards Best Picture. Yes, it has. But like this year, anyway, keep going. But anyway, so only Napoleon, Golda, Society. of the Snow, El Conde, the creator, Mission Impossible, and Indiana Jones were Kraft's nominees that were not Best Picture nominees. In addition to that, only one of the 10 screenplay

nominees were not Best Picture nominees. That was May December. Only four acting nominees, representing three films, were nominated outside of the Best Picture 10. That's Coleman Domingo for Rustin, Annette and Jody for Nyad, and Daniel Brooks for the color purple. It is a thing that continues to bug me, and it is a thing where, in relation to Ferrari, it's like, Ferrari is not my favorite movie of the year. Ferrari is a good movie, and Ferrari is a movie that has the kinds of craft achievements that you would want it to be a nominee somewhere. You want more of those movies to make it onto, and these categories. And I just, I don't like this narrowing down. What it says to me is that

Oscar voters are seeing fewer movies, which I don't like, I don't like that trend. I don't like it at all, Chris. So, um, anyway, that's my little bugaboo about that. That's my friday. What is your choice for, um, the, uh, the parasite basement prize? Most surprising. Uh, I mean, there's several things that I could say here and I could go on a couple different tracks. And I know I've had some comments about this movie. If it doesn't show up, it's because X that, like, I'd still think are true. But at the end of the day, when we're talking about the movie itself, it is really

surprising that the taste of things didn't show up in international. There was, like, as I've been saying all season, like, because it's IFC. There's some, like, you know, IFC doesn't really have. have the money or the track record with Oscar um whereas like if focus had released this movie I think it would uh you know she would have had more of a footprint like at one point we were talking about juliet Benosh being an acting nominee uh I think you know if this had been uh more of a player you know maybe it could have been like a production design type of nominee. And I think when you just see this movie, you know that it's going to register with a very

prevalent type of academy member, that it is very surprising that it ultimately didn't make it. And for like, there's always some type of, I say this for this movie, but I don't mean it in a derogatory way, but I mean it in a derogatory way about other movies. You know, heartwarming or somewhat sappy, crowd-pleasing type of movie in the international category. And it's like, oh, but the taste of things appeals to that, but it's good. There was that article that was talking about, like, inside the French national, you know, committee or whatever, in sort of... There was a whole, like, kind of whisper campaign against Taste of Things as, like,

reactionary because France didn't submit Anatomy of a Fall. Right. I would argue, I understand the logic in... submitting the taste of things over Anatomy of a Fall because Anatomy of a Fall just got five Oscar nominations. You know, Anatomy of a Fall was probably bound to do well, and it would still be risky in this category. You know, so. I mean. But also, like, Anatomy of a Fall is still probably going to win an original screenplay Oscar.

You're more certain of that than I am, but I don't think it's, certainly don't think it's out of the question. strongly. I mean, I think that's a very popular movie. That's probably the only category it can win. Okay, sidebar. I think people that love that movie are going to vote for it in that category. True two-minute sidebar, because this is ultimately

just a thing of like you and I approach things differently. I think you and I disagree on how much people on an individual level filling out their ballots pay attention to things like spreading the well. I don't think people approach

it's not that they approach their ballot like I have to vote for this here I have to vote for this here like you know I don't think any individual person is approaching it that way but I do think that people who for example love anatomy of a fall are going to make sure that it wins something that they want it to win something that makes sense it ends up metastasizing somewhere I just generally as the years go by I come to more and more of a realization that like we care about this so much more than most people who have the average person. Right, right, right. Unless you're Francis Fisher, who maybe cares about this more than any of us. We'll talk about it. Into it. We'll talk about it. Okay, so before we get back onto it, if it's not anatomy of a fall in that category, what do you think it is? I think there's so much love for the holdovers. I'm backing away a little bit from my holdovers could win best picture thing, even though if it happens, I'm not going to be so shocked.

But I feel exactly the same way. I think even with Giamatti and Divine Joy Randolph, Devine Joy Randolph, rather, on track to win two acting awards, I think ultimately that just shows how much people love this movie. And I think with May December, obviously, Oscar voters have not, have shown that they don't love that movie as much. Same with past lives. Maestro screenplay is a weird place to reward Maestro if you're going to reward Maestro. I think it was going to get it, too, because I'm like, who's talking about that screenplay? I don't like that nomination, I have to say. So I think it comes down to Anatomy of a Fall and the Holdovers, and I could see a world in which Anatomy Fall, especially because Justine Tray is nominated for the screenplay, along with Arthur Harari.

So you would be giving it an award that goes to Justin Tray, whereas Holdovers is written by David Hemingson. so it's not an award that will go to Alexander Payne for, you know, it's not a, it's not a de facto directing award. Do you know what I mean? It's definitely between those two movies, but I feel like Anatomy of a Fall is not leaving the Oscars empty, completely empty handed. All right. What's our next category, Chris? All right. So next, we are giving out the Reservation Road Most Forgettable Participation Trophy to the movie. that we completely forgot about

was once originally pushed for Oscars. We showed up to this graduation ceremony and we forgot to even put a chair for them. We had to go find a chair for the recipient of the Reservation Road

Most Forgettable Participation Trophy. All right. Who's getting it, Chris? Again, like all categories, I'm of multiple minds, but the one that I'm going to call out is Freud's Last Session, starring Anthony Hopkins, where I think this movie received multiple announcements of like, we're releasing this movie.

Yes, I got a lot of emails about Freud's last session. Yeah. And then there was one maybe during the fall festival season where it's just like, Freud's last session, coming at Christmas, guys. And then a few months later, Freud's last session, coming at Christmas. guys. And it's because they didn't, partly because they didn't play it at the fall festivals. But then they, the world premiere it at AFI, not even a gala. It sounds like some weird stuff was going on with AFI this year and that like the screenings weren't even

full, et cetera. Oh dear. And like, I mean, maybe on a certain level, Sony classics saw the writing on the wall for this movie because the movie's pretty bad. But is it? I still haven't seen it. Is it bad? It's not worth your. I mean, like, we'll probably do an episode on it eventually. I'm not going to tell you to watch this twice, like, I'm going to have to. But, you know, nobody was talking about it because nobody saw it. Yeah. And it's not very good.

Hopkins isn't doing really much that would have resulted in a nomination anyway, even in a less competitive year, as this proved to be. So that is my pick for most forgettable. What are your runners up? Did we mention runners up in the most surprising category? I don't think that did. I don't have any, so Ferrari was my only choice. What were your runners up in most surprising? I mean, Asteroid City.

That's a whole long conversation that I'm sure we'll get to. Yes. Call me DeLulu or The Lusion Defense, as we said earlier today. The delusion defense. Maybe I just want to believe. but I did actually think Origin was going to get a Best Picture nomination. I predicted it. I predicted it.

Francis Fisher. Okay. Do we have the conversation here then? Let's have the conversation. No, no, no. Okay, we'll have it. We'll have the conversation eventually. Okay, okay.

My other things I would have thrown out for most forgettable were fingernails, a movie that seemed to merit absolutely no discussion or response even. I mean, somewhat at its festival. More people responded about it at Telluride than they did in Toronto. But, like, after Toronto happened, no one talked about that movie. Yeah. And then Next Goal wins. You know, COVID is still around, but is the pandemic over?

Yes, because Next Goal wins, which was supposed to come out. Yep. Which was, like, entirely shot. It's the last movie shot before COVID to be released. There will be people. your runners-up are the exact same too as my runners-up are fingernails and next goal wins I saw fingernails at Tiff

I forgot about it almost immediately Next goal wins is going to be one of those movies that people try and convince you never had Oscar buzz because people are going to It had Oscar buzz for years, literal years Because they wouldn't really It had Oscar buzz as recently as September When that trailer came out

I know there were people who were like This looks like one of those bullshity heartwarming movies that's going to get people to vote for it for awards. So it definitely happened. My choice, and I don't like, I don't like to dump on the failure of artists that I like. I know where you're going with this. It's Lee.

Oh, okay. Does Lee count because Lee didn't come out this year? Did it not? I thought it had a cursory release. Okay, well, then I'm taking it. It doesn't have a U.S. distributor still. I thought it had a cursory release from something. Okay, then I'm going to take Lee off.

Lee will count for next year. Don't worry. We'll get to Lee next year then. Okay. Then my choice is next goal wins because I do feel like there's going to be a narrative that settles in when we select that movie to do for our episode. And there are going to be people who are going to be like, that never had Oscar buzz. And I'll be like, you are a liar or else you don't know. So what did you think I was going to say?

I thought you were going to say foe. Because I almost put foe. I still haven't seen foe. So that feels... Foe also, I feel like... The negative reaction makes it more memorable. I think it was so... People got so mad at it.

And I don't know why still. I got to see it. Well, no, because everybody... I haven't seen it either. And, like, at this point, I'm waiting for when we talk about it. Because, you know, that was the movie that I kept seeing half-star logs. Yes. box and like one star logs I was like how bad could it be you do not understand

average or boring you do not understand the pieces of shit movies that I've given two and a half stars to on letterbox just because I'm like well there's something good in it you know what I mean where like I am maybe that's just my you know my grading policy come sign up for my class because I will be a soft grader but like um well to a certain degree you can't just judge a star rating on its face because everyone has a different philosophy. Exactly. All right. But like you kept

seeing that for that movie and every time I saw someone log it I was like okay so they're like nope, it's that bad. It's that bad. I just Watching the trailer and seeing who's involved in it

it's not that I think people are lying. It's not that I think people are being untruthful. I just, I don't have it in my head as to what is so bad about it. So I'm very curious to see. I am not spoiled on the movie, but I gather that it's the type of thing. Is it just that it's boring? The twist is so stupid, but also very predictable. But not fun, like I'm a secret honeybee.

Right. Okay. Joe, what's next? All right. The, you're so foolish. Chris named this one. The Akiria C. Davenport Prize for Deserved Better. Now listen.

She deserves better. She deserved better. I am not an anti-Akiria C. Davenport person. But Akira also declined to participate in the what the fuck was

that called? The lip-sink Lollaparusa or whatever. Extravaganza. Whatever. The tournament. The single episode tournament that Silky ran the table on until she didn't, which led to one of the most memorable parts of that episode, which was Silky, lipsicking against herself. But, like, Akiria, like, just trot your ass out there and do a little day. I somewhat understand it because, like, they were just not on her wavelength, because I especially think in her all-star season, especially her runways, they were not giving her credit. for Jack shit.

And she had some incredible looks. Here's my thing. And I also just recently rewatch that season and I was like,

Keri is even better than we remember. Here's my thing with All-Star seasons. And this is why I have a little, I have a little less patience for people

on All-Star seasons. And again, find me the evidence where I am giving too much credit for somebody on All-Sars. I violate my own rules. But you're all,

Everybody on an all-star season is there because they really like them, and is there because they have, in the past, enchanted these judges in some way or another. In an all-star season, they have enough storyline, like positive storyline for maybe four of you. And so if you are not one of those four, they are going to not make as big of a deal when you do well, and to make a bigger deal of when you do not too well. And that is just how a television show, especially that television show, works. So at some point, you're going to have to be good with that before you walk in the door, or else you are just doing the thing where I walk in and I'm like, well, obviously I'm going to win.

And any result short of that is injustice. And I just don't agree with that. I don't know if that's a generous reading on her specifically on All Stars, because you have to think of that whole cast and like there's great people in that cast there were people that I really rooted for

and then there were people like I was like oh I thought that was a really good I think that cast performed very well I think in general across that season Anyway anyway anyway Yes the prize We already said we can't talk about drag race We're gonna go five fucking hours

Talking about years old drag guys Yeah we gotta stop we gotta stop All right The Curiosity Davenport Prize For deserved better According to Chris my god I have such a list my list for this is the longest list that I have I have the most

yeah I feel like this is where we would be like and here's our scroll honestly yes so if I were to pick one movie that deserved better from all of this and with the caveat that I think this is an uncommonly great Oscar ballot I think this is a very good top to bottom Oscar lineup there are very few Booker categories, if any.

I don't want to overlap with you, so I'm going to say, because I think I know what you're going to say, and you're right, it's all of us strangers for me. And I know that, like, I love this movie more than you do, but, and I need to see it again. With the caveat being, I think it's good. I need to see it again, because now I'm worried that, like, I overrated it, but I really don't think so. I've done my Gen X spiel on this movie on this podcast before, right? Yes. Yes.

So I won't rehatch it again, except to say that, like, the fact that this movie speaks especially to Gen X gaze is a thing that is being discounted by millennial and Gen Z Gays, and I don't like, Gen Z Gays aren't seeing this movie, Gen Z Gays don't see movies. They just hear about them on Twitter

and complain about them. It's being discounted by millennial gays in a way that I find condescending. But it's a really lovely movie. Andrew Haig, who I've discovered now through the roundtables, is pronounced Haig and like the Haig rather than Hay. Like, hey. Send up to the Haig.

What actor do we want to send to the Haig? And by that I mean, do we want to see in an Andrew Haig movie? Oh, God. That's an excellent question. It does feel like it's surprising that Ben Wishaw has not been in an Andrew Haig. movie already? That's the perfect. I think that's a perfect answer. I didn't have it, but I'm just going to piggyback off of it. I also would love to see him direct James McAvoy in something. I don't think that this movie, even though this is not on my picks for this category, I don't

think you're wrong because as much as things kind of narrowed down just to Andrew Scott, there were multiple avenues to recognize this movie. You know I'm not the biggest Claire Foy fan, although, Do you know what I watched recently that I thought she was tremendous in? And nobody watched this. Speaking of Ben Wachau, remember that show, a very English scandal that he did? My husband watched that show. The follow-up to that was a very British scandal with Paul Bettany and Claire Foy. She's so fun in that.

She's like, she's really good. Anyway. I would like to see her have some fun. Yeah, she does not have a ton of fun in all of a strangers, but I think she's very good. I think Jamie Bell is very good. I think Paul Meskell. I think there was a reticence to, like, get on the Paul Maskell train again this year because we had done that last year so much with some similar vibes, right, in that, like, it's dealing with memory and regret and the queerness of Afterson was so funny because I look back at After Sun, I'm like, that's a queer movie, and textually is definitely not. And then I look at that. It's definitely a queer kid, though.

I guess I'm thinking mostly of his character. You're right. So it is a queer movie. The I'm right. Okay. There we go. I just think of his character. I'm like, yeah, well, he's obviously, like, bisexual. And there's nothing in the text that actually says that.

Anyway. Plausible bisexual. My favorite subcategory. But anyway, I just, yeah, I think that whole cast is fantastic. I think, not having read the book, but, like, even just, like, hearing what I've heard from the book, I think it's a very interesting adaptation by Andrew Haig. I think he directs it incredibly well. I think there are, you know, elements to that movie.

Like, that's, that's never a movie that's going to, like, show up in craft categories anyway at the Oscars. But I don't boil it just down to Andrew Scott, although I would have nominated him. And I have to say, having Andrew Scott do the Oscar campaign run this year was very rewarding and very fun. I thought he was a great participant. I thought the actors' roundtable was the best it's ever. been this year, and it's because they put two gay men on that panel between him and Coleman Domingo. I've also had my, like, Robert Downey Jr. card renewed this year where, like, I'm very much kind of enchanted by him again in a way that I haven't been in over a decade. Love that actor's

roundtable. Anyway, I'll get into my runners-up after you pick your number one, but what's your number one deserved better. So also considering that there are movies that I feel like we'll be able to talk about elsewhere slash, you know, kind of a draw on some movies where I'm going to choose to talk about them, I think, I mean, like, being me, you know, I also find that every year there's always movies that get put into a lane. And I'm like, but there's so much more that's good about this thing that you could be talking about it in many different avenues of its greatness.

And for me, my answer to what movie deserved better, it's a thousand and one, granted, you know, did this movie show up where we probably expected to, where the movie, where people decided the lane for this movie was? Sure, because, you know, it was recognized at Gotham's. It was recognized by Indy Spirits. It won the grand jury prize somewhat at the time. it was kind of surprising to people at Sundance and I mean like the score of this movie should have been recognized obviously Tiana Taylor I mean it's a beautifully shot movie I would also add that like every year every year it feels like we are just anointing one breakthrough director and that's all the space that we make and Well, I'm not necessarily saying it should just be A.V. Rockwell over Celine's song. I think there's a lot of people who made great breakthroughs this year, D. Smith with Kokomo City. You know, there never seems to be room for any more than one person for breakthrough directing, which is why I was so happy A.V. Rockwell won at Gotham's.

And this is why I am very much in favor always of public. runners-up at Critics Awards because less so for like the major awards, less so for who finished second place and actor or actress, although you know I want to know. But for things like breakthrough, for things like, you know, first-time director or whatever, to allow more names to be out there in that conversation for that. Exactly. And then like this is also saying deserved better across the whole season, not just with Oscar for me for this movie.

like Tiana Taylor absolutely should have gotten more mentions than she did. Listeners are probably sick of hearing me talk about it. But yeah, go watch this movie. I thought you were going to say Asteroid City, for sure, for sure, for sure, for sure. Again, the caveat being, I think we'll have other places to talk about other movies, but it was in my runner's hub. Because again, for Asteroid City, there's a lot of avenues to recognize that movie for. granted, there's maybe too many avenues to recognize that movie for and no one ever really...

Maybe that's a movie that might have done better if people had picked a lame. Like, it did feel for a second like Asteroid City was going to pull a Hail Caesar and get a production design nomination. Sure. But, you know... My other runner-up for this,

which maybe I'll be able to talk to about later or not, is Eileen. I have Eileen. that only queer people seem to like. I have Eileen in a future one, so maybe we can talk about that one there. A couple that I don't necessarily have in future categories. David Fincher is the killer, which I know you agree with me. You love it even more than I do, I feel like.

We'll get into it. All right, well, then we'll get into that. And then the Iron Claw, which I think in general. We'll get into it. All right. Okay. Moving right along. Next one

Which I have dubbed the Noah Hawley Prize for Did Not Deserve Better The movie that we are maybe happy to see get no Oscar nominations Or Thought It Got Too Much Throughout the season Yeah What's yours This is really hard because I do have a few that I'm just like You know what? Honestly, great I have very few actually

this is like the the I think anything beyond my like one or two that I'm going to say would feel like I'm punching down and I don't want to punch down too far on like fingernails you know what I mean it's just like yeah sure sure sure sure sure yeah Fingernails is a movie produced by Apple like you're not punching down on that movie like it still exists on their platform I okay then I'm gonna I'm gonna go for the one where I get to really stand in my truth as someone who is going to just be a jerk about this movie. Oh, God. And I think it got too much as it is and just say, I feel like I am on an island when I see people call Blackberry one of the best movies of the year. Blackberry didn't get very much, Chris. I got to tell you. Blackberry got recognized for Glenn Howardton several times for a performance that is not very good, in my opinion, for a movie that's pretty basic and a retreat of a lot of other much better movies.

What are the better movies, though? Not to me particularly well made? I think it's the best of that crop of movies from this last couple years. From that, like, we're going to talk about a product that got made. I just watched Flaming Hot last night, and, like, BlackBerry is a more interesting movie than Flaming Hot. Although Flaming Hot is kind of charming.

Flaming Hot at least seems like. it would be fun. This is a very... I thought BlackBerry was fun, actually. Uninterrogative, not, I don't, like, really no control over its tone. And I think Glenn Howardton is truly just yelling. I'm sorry to not really have a nuanced take about Blackberry, but I don't have one. I don't think it's very good. In terms of... And every time someone was saying Glenn Howardton could get nominated for an Oscar, I want to... to yell in the middle

of the street. I did think he was really funny. In terms of performances that are just yelling, I would prefer that got an Oscar nomination over Mark Wahlberg in the Departed, which I think is the nae plus ultra of

nominated. Well, he's not just yelling. He's just saying fuck. Well, right. But it's the same, you know what I mean? It's the same impulse. You know what I mean? Sure, sure, sure, sure. I did like Glenn Howardson and that, I have to say. also made me multiple times look up that video clip from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia of him doing his CCH Pounder impersonation, which is, and then like side by side with

the scene that he's parodying, which is... Let's see. God damn. What are the errands do you have us running for the DA? What are the errands do you have us running for the DA? Very funny and like surprisingly accurate. Yeah, I didn't, wasn't my favorite movie. I don't think I'd have, I wouldn't have nominated Glenn Hartton.

I actually thought Jay Barrichelle was the performance in that movie that I liked the best. Jay Baruchel, who is punching above his weight in that movie. I'm sorry. Jay, I disagree. I want to defend Jay Baruchel, but I don't know if he has that in it. Jay Baruchel should be getting some of the roles that Michael Sarah is getting, which is not to say that Michael Sarah is bad. I'm just saying that, like, he can do it. Listen, there is only one Alan, and...

Jerry Barrettel. Sarah is a national institution, and I love him. Okay. I like Michael Sarah and a lot of things. One of them is in Barbie. I think he is... My most millennial opinion is loving Michael Sarah. Yeah.

Listen, we're going to be talking about Molly's game soon. We'll be talking about Michael Sarah. Trust. Yes, of course. Yeah. What's your choice? My choice is obvious. And to the point where I, like, don't want to talk about it anymore because I do seem like a jerk,

and I know a lot of people really like this movie. Although I don't feel it's too bad Because it's not like The category where we stand in being a jerk though I think it's fine Well and I've talked about it before I think Air fucking sucks I think Air sucks

So bad I am not Air also did fine Air got Golden Globe nominations An AARP movie for grown up nominations The exact nominations that it did That it could get Like Air got more than it deserved

I will admit that I am not in the top percentile of people who love Ben Affleck. There are people out there who really love Ben Affleck, especially now that he's married J-Lo. There are people out there who are cynical as you please and are all in on the Affleck thing. And like, God bless you. There are people that I, you know, that I love and love their opinions. I am less enthused than that, but like I am willing to get on board with Affleck on things when I love him, like Gone Girl, or like the Last Dual, which I think he's very good in. I like Argo. I think that's a finely directed movie. I like Gone Baby Gone. I am not a knee-jerk Ben Affleck Hater. I wanted, air seemed like the perfect movie for me, who am both like a movie gay and

sportsy. You know what I mean? Like, I should absolutely be on board for this. This movie fucking blows. I'm surprised that you default to the Ben, Affleck thing, because that's a movie I forget that he directed, and he's not in it that much? I'm like, why is that the funny? He is the funniest part about it. Like, Chris Messina is also giving a, doing nothing but yelling.

And like, I'm never going to not like Chris Messina. But like, there's so much milk toast Matt Damon shit in this movie. There's, this is the movie that if people got so hung up on Barbie being a commercial for a product,

and yet, and I I, like, the people who were saying that about Barbie fully didn't watch Air. So, like, that's fine. So, like, I'm not yelling at the same people, but, like, Air, I mean, you talk about BlackBerry being uncritical. Like, air is a full-on, just sort of, like, puff piece about Nike and Phil Knight and whatever. I think the needle drops are embarrassing. Embarrassing. Embarrassing.

embarrassing I was frustrated by this movie more than I wanted to be again I was really expecting a good

fun time and I found not that I think it was I thought it was obnoxious I think Jason Bateman's

sleepwalking his way through it I think it just felt like the air had the air of you know they were all

just sort of like hanging out over the weekend and decided to make a movie fucking Air Jordans and I I hated it.

My runner-up is a movie I was surprised that I didn't like as much as I didn't like it. Dream scenario, which I found tedious. Hated. Tidious.

Interesting idea that like really putters out into nothing. Not even just putters out into nothing. Like that movie really drops its own ball even though I think it really doesn't understand

the way that like I don't know I don't necessarily want to get it I thought that was one of the worst movies I saw this year I will say but even I think as a Nicholas Cage performance like that movie didn't deserve recognition it's not

he's not on the level of he is in like pig no he's tremendous in pig it's not a particular I did not find it to be a particularly special Nicholas Cage performance I agree I agree with that and it ultimately ended up being a movie about nothing because it has no courage of its convictions, even if I really

disagreed with what the convictions it initially has. Did you talk about a movie where Michael... That movie didn't deserve Michael Sarah. Because, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I totally forgot about that. The Michael Sarah stuff in that movie, that movie really thinks that stuff is funny and it's just... What were your runners up for this? I would also... I mean, I saw some people really kind of take it in and I was Like, no, this is correct, that Wish didn't get an animated nomination or a best original song.

Introduce me to the people who liked Wish, and they'll be the first people I've seen who have liked Wish. I was actually shocked at how bad that movie was. I'm still kind of, because, like, you believe at least the Disney machine of things that there is just a ironclad formula that they follow that will make anything they put out passable yeah passable at worst and i don't know how wish happened i watched the trailer and i'm like okay like c minus but like how bad could it be you know what i mean like yeah it's pretty bad and then also don't know what i'll watch it now now that it's not nominated i was sort of waiting for it to get nominated in something song or something can we talk for half a second my observation about best song in fact that like we had um

the long list for song, a musical adaptation of a popular Broadway musical, a John Carney, you know, acoustic guitar, strummy-strummy movie, a popular animated movie, a popular documentary, and not even on the short list, a musical, even though it tried to hide the fact that it was a musical that is like in the top 10 of the yearly box office and none of them got nominated for Best Original Song is and all of them got beat out by um like song no one's ever heard from a documentary and a Diane Warren song well but I mean song no one's ever heard from from a documentary is like that's a slot that's that's gonna go uh forever a Diane Warren song a surprise song from Killers of the Flower Moon although at some point I mentioned somewhere

that like watch out for that Killers of the Flower Moon song But anyway, it's just surprising to me. And maybe it's just me boiling it down to the fact that like something from Wonka should have been nominated. And that wasn't even on the short list. It's surprising to me. I think that there's just like an evenness to those songs. Like that song needed like one song to get punched up a little bit. I think it has that song.

I think a world of our own is that song. I think there have been far worse. Don't cringe at me when I say that. There have been far worse. We got a category coming up. It's fine. my other one was dumb money which I feel like because it played Toronto people initially were like looking at that movie in that way and I'm like I don't know guys and then I saw the movie and I was like this is awful that movie would be 60% better if they cut the Pete Davidson character entirely is what I will say I agree I agree it's a shame because Paul Dano is so good in the movie and like it was great to see him like get a story starring role and like anything that's good about that movie is thanks to him but like it's funny

that america ferrera in that movie it couldn't be more basic for what it is like it's even more basic than air was in what it was talking about america ferrera in that movie essentially gives the barbie feminism speech but about regular people in the stock market like it's really really funny that like this was the year that america ferrera just like spoke the concerns of people about grand societal problems I should add her to the consideration for the movie because I do think that she's at least watchable

in the way that some of the people Sure, she just gets a lot of like really in the way is surprise Dane Dahan because like Dain Dahan's just in a mask the whole time so you don't know it's Dain Dahan Dhan and then when he moves his mouth it moves his mask I literally gas Between that and Oppenheimer

this was a good year for the Dahan Naders what are we calling ourselves the I mean there's three of us weird, weird gays who love Dain Dahl. Okay. The next prize is the, I wanted to read. We're going to move out of the corner of us being mean this episode. Yeah, this is the Widows Memorial.

Didn't we almost have it all prize? Didn't we almost have it all? Speaking of which Joe whipped up a little class of 2023 video. I was maybe up until 3 in the morning last night finishing a class. a class of 2023 video that I had the idea to make at like 9.30 in the evening. Like, I really just like, this was on a whim, folks. A little hyper fixation. But I couldn't get it out of my head.

And then I was like, oh, let's do an in-memorium reel. And so I did an in-memorium reel. And I left it for Chris in his inbox this morning, like it was Christmas morning. It's fun. It's silly. It's silly, but it's fun. I will say the ketchup entertainment logo... Showing up in there...

Jump scare. I just want to say... Yes. The existence of ketchup entertainment... ...implies the existence... Of mustard entertainment? ...of a ketchup entertainer. Oh, I see. Okay.

Catchup entertainment, I can't... I can't... Memory is a movie that didn't really happen, which... I would... I'll tell you this. I thought was people valiantly doing their best to make a not good, not intentionally making a lot of good intentions and I would say narratively bad intentions went into that movie. So I don't. Sounds like you have a take on memory. I don't really see the point of dumping on that movie beyond the ketchup entertainment of it all. Truly. So what you're saying is, you're hitting the bottle of, you're hitting the bottom of the ketchup entertainment bottle. Someone needs to hit that bottle. Change your name. No, change your name.

All right. Anyway, I will lead my, uh, didn't we almost have at all prize. This is for the movie that came closest to getting a nomination somewhere, which is to say, do we think any of these movies finished sixth place anywhere? So I talked about Ferrari a little bit before, um, so we don't really need to do this. I was definitely of the opinion that Saltburn was going to end up on the ballot somewhere and really piss people off. And I do feel like there

did seem like multiple avenues for that to happen. I think original screenplay was probably the most likely. But like I would have, I would love to see how close Barry Keogan, for example, got for Best Actor, because he was kind of coming on strong as the season went along. I bet

Ros Pike was the closest. Porting actress was Wild West, though. Like, she might have been... That's why. That's why I think she was possibly the closest. She could have been, or she could have been 11th, you know what I mean? I'm not saying she was sixth place, but I'm saying, like, the range between six and 12th, even, might have been pretty close. I have a feeling we're going to talk about origin in a second.

So I'm going to also say, well, I'll reflect what you said earlier, which is I did really think the taste of things was going to get nominated. But, like, my, my winner here is origin. And if you also have that, then we can have that conversation. And if not, we'll still have that conversation because I want to... I really struggled to come up with a movie that we haven't talked about. So my winner here is Ferrari. Okay, yeah, there we go. And behind that, I would have taste of things and all of us strangers.

And we... Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about origin then, because that's my number one here. Okay. I think Francis Fisher has gone back to the war room. and sort of, you know, ostentatiously wiped that whiteboard clean, and we're starting back from brass tacks.

It is, well, so this is the gag-yest thing, is that, like, again, again, I need to know how close things came. I need to know, because it did not seem like we just sort of, like, got hysterical for a moment. But it's easy to see that because it didn't pan out. If I am Francis Fisher's campaign strategist, I'm telling her next time to truly pick a category to be pushing for. Because Origin, people are like... This was the problem.

Well, what are they telling them to vote for? And I think they were just like, just vote for the movie. And that's why I was predicting Origin would get one nomination for Best Picture. Certainly seemed like more, like, you're right. I think in the, in the Instagram posts and social media posts and whatnot, there was less of a needle sharp pinpoint call to action of like, now again, the, the academy put in some rules. This is what she, Francis Fisher got a phone call for because they're saying, we only need this number of votes, which clearly was very effective. But even still, I think you're right in that, like, they didn't seem to quite. know whether they were pushing people to vote for it in Best Picture or Best Actress.

And I think you're right that there is a lane that needs to get picked at a far earlier stage. But just the fact that, like, mobilization happened again is delightful to me. There needs to be major points awarded in the movie's Fantasy League moving forward. It's so subjective. Any social media post that Francis Fisher makes about any movie. I guess that's a way to be cut and dried about it. It's just did Francis Fisher make an Instagram post about your movie? 15 points.

Even if she just makes a post about ingenue Ellis Taylor in origin, Origin gets those. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And they need to be a lot of points. So the thousand point bonus, the, um... Yep, a thousand points. I don't imagine you ever watched MTV's Rock and Jock anything when they did that on MTV. Possible?

Isn't that what Jesse, was it Jesse Camp? No, this would have been like Dan Cortez hosted MTV Sports back in the day, back in the 90s. And so every once in a while, once a year or so, they would do a rock and jock charity softball game or a rock and jock charity basketball game, right? And it would be like, Salt and Pepper and, you know, Cindy Crawford. and, you know, Kennedy and Daisy Fuentes and Anthony Kedis, and you know what I mean, playing fucking softball or whatever. The one year it was like all three Salt Peppa and Spinderella were all playing second base. So like all three of them were in the same position. And so the Rock and Jock basketball, they would do things like at a certain spot on the court if you were

standing in that circle and you got that shot, you got 10 points. And as the game got to its final minute, they would lower the 50-point basket. And it would be this, like, big basket that's, like, way taller than the hoop or whatever. And if anybody could make that shot, they would get 50 points. And so that to me is what it sounds like when you're saying that, like, the Francis Fisher Instagram post is the 50-point basket of the movie fantasy. You know, if there weren't so many people that played in the league, I would say that no movie can have two votes. that no movie can have what?

No movie can have, no, no movie can be drafted more than once. So it's like, if I draft origin, no one else can draft origin in this. But that's, that's very complicated. Well, then, you know. And there's only so many movies. There's only so many movies. You would only get to have so many players. Yeah, that's the, that's the problem.

But anyway, what else is there to say on this? What else is the, where are we on origin? I am, I will say this. I am a little sad that origin didn't get nominated because I would have loved a broader and more far-reaching conversation on that movie because I do think it is fascinating. And the few reviews and responses and letterbox reviews, the really, the ones that really considered it. And, you know, those responses were kind of all over the spectrum in a way that. people across the board on this movie. And not just like,

this is my defense of origin or this is my takedown of origin. It was like a lot of real nuanced conversation. A lot of conversation that respected what Eva DuVernay was doing but was still critical of it. A lot of people who were more supportive of it in a way that I found illuminating. And like, I would have loved to have seen all of that. And now we're probably not going to get any of that

because we sort of know. I do think the movie merits at least more conversation than ultimately probably will receive. And I kind of also felt, I remember early on after I saw that movie at TIF, the vibe that I was like, I don't think that this movie is successful, but I could imagine the industry going for this movie. And I feel like when it went to neon, we were like, well, that's probably not going to happen because they already have their priorities.

set. Yeah. Um, but ultimately, in some way, a part of the industry did recognize that movie. It was just Francis Fisher. Listen, she's going to end up being one of the most important power brokers in Hollywood within the next five years. So like, don't, don't sleep. Don't sleep on that. All right. Next category, the honorary birth award for film most likely to make Chris and Joe argue on a future episode. I have several contenders. I may, I also have several contenders. I maybe spoke too soon on saying, now we're going to stop being mean on this episode. No, I know where you're going. Because now we're going to be mean to each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you can only be this argumentative with someone you love dearly, with someone who is family to you. All right. Hit me with it. With someone whose opinions,

you do actually really respect. Oh, yeah. It's so easy for me to brush off a bad, like, a negative comment about a movie I love from somebody who I don't respect, because then I'm just like, you know, all right, like, enjoy your three other movies that you're seeing in this calendar year and be gone with you. I think the common conception of when this happens, when we argue back and forth, is for things that I like that you do not, which is why I have chosen for this, Bo is afraid. All of my choices here are movies. don't like that. Are movies that I like better than you. You were the person who just said to me, you know, you really just need to accept that you don't like that movie.

And at that point, I took your permission. But at the same time, I think you are, have you accepted? You are tickled by that movie in a way that I feel like, the things that frustrate me about that movie are the things that tickled you. And that means that we would fight. What is it about Boas Afraid that kind of tickles? me in a way that Charlie Kaufman's

I'm thinking about ending things really made me angry. I'm interested in maybe parsing that in a future episode. Well, while I think they're both kind of nihilistic movies, I do think there's much more fatalism

to I'm thinking of ending things than Bo's Afraid. Bo's Afraid, I think, is more explicitly a comedy. I think the very opening segment of Bo terrified in his New York City apartment is so like I'm probably going to get that that's the best part of the movie what's what's whatever the psychological term for like is you know is so a perfect encapsulation of an anxiety ridden person's like view of of of you know the threat of the world like that is that is a pandemic sex.

of a movie right there. That is a the whole world is so scary and like you walk out and like there's this guy sort of running full speed at you and he's like naked and has a knife and like all this sort of stuff and you know

having lived in like shabby apartment buildings like the thing where you're just like I'm just going to like pretend that whatever's happening out in the hallway is not happening like that kind of a thing and just sort of like really ensconced in his own room.

And then, like, you'll get things like the guy who's like spider manning on his fucking ceiling over the tub and the recluse spider. And, you know, I think it's, I don't know, we'll talk about, we're going to do a movie on it. But anyway, yes, we will end up. I think that'll be a fun one to disagree about, though, because, like, I think on some level,

even the ways in which you don't like it, I think you understand why I do. And in a way that, like, I don't feel like... Oh, yes, yes. I understand what you like. I understand what people like about that movie. Yeah. I also think that this is a movie with the potential for both of us to flip our opinions.

It's very possible. It's very possible. And then we end up arguing in the way that I wasn't even expected to. Right, right, right, right. But yeah, what's your choice? What do you want to fight with me about? I thought you were going to say Priscilla, because... Which is funny because, like, Priscilla's not even, like, in the top ten for me.

It's not a movie that, like, I have strong affection for, but I find, with love, I find the way you dismiss this movie a little irksome in... I find it personally painful that I dismiss this movie in this way. I think you have a way of talking about Jacob Allorty that makes me feel judged for liking him. I think you I don't understand the Jacob Allorty thing with everybody It's not about you Well, I am

Well, I don't know I don't want to loop myself into With like the absolute like crazies on like Twitter But like I have come around to him this year In both Saltburn and Priscilla I think he's quite good Um He made me laugh in Saltburn in a few places

I like whatever I like this sort of like Alt Elvis that he's giving in the I just think it's a really sort of lovely movie, and that's, you know, an easy way to talk about Sophia movies. But I think the way that she sort of zeroes right in on the girl in this maelstrom of fame and success or whatever, it's not stepping out of her, you know, narrative comfort zone in any way. But I think, much like Wes Anderson, I'm like, yeah, like every few years, I like to settle down with a Sophia movie and see what kind of, you know, sort of walled up young girl we're talking about this time. And I really liked it. All that is true for me, too.

I just, like, of course I want that from Sophia Coppola. I love Sophia Coppola. one of my favorite working filmmakers. I am a noted on the rocks defender. It's true. And I just found it so depressing to see her making something that felt so extremely authorized biopic or like authorized biography. Talking about Priscilla and Maestro in tandem might be an interesting thing, actually. That's, that is true.

Because I liked Priscilla quite a bit more than I liked Maestro, and why is that? I don't know. I liked them maybe equally, but I have more to recommend Maestro for, even though I think it has also bigger problems. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense to me, yeah. Priscilla is just very, very middle of the road for me, for a filmmaker who I think has never otherwise been middle of the road. What did you think of the beguiled? I also really like...

Okay, so maybe that's the thing is too. I know a lot of people have kind of changed that they're like, we maybe did too much for that movie. And I don't agree. I was underwhelmed by the Beguile. The Beguiled is also the movie that all of the things people criticized it for. It's like, well, yeah, these are bad people. These are not supposed to be good. Oh, that was never my critique of the Beguile.

I was just never, I think it, I thought it was a little, it was a little, I don't know, flat. I don't know. It wasn't, it did not jump off the screen for me in a way that I wanted it to. The beguiled I also felt at the time that I was like, okay, we've never had a Kirsten Duntz nomination, and it should happen for this movie. But we do have Kirsten Dunst Oscar nominee in existence now. We need to get George Severus to come on and do another Sophia movie with a or whatever he wants. George, if you're listening, come on time. Yeah, like come back and do whatever you want, but I would love to do another Sophia to keep that street going.

The other movie that I had on my long list for this is one that I have somewhat ambivalable. feelings about it in terms of Oscar. I think it's more of the thing that it was never the movie's intention for Oscar. Sometimes movies can just happen during the winter calendar and not have Oscar in its sites whatsoever, but people talked about it that way because of the pedigree of it, and that's leave the world behind, which we definitely disagree on. This is going to be a shorter conversation maybe than, or a different conversation. I don't think leave the world behind belongs on Class of 20203.

I would have lopped it off. Okay, then I'm going to agree with you. Because, like, I think it was clear that it was never in their intentions for that. I don't think it ever was. They wanted another bird box. Like, that was the goal. I don't think awards were ever in this movie's silence. Granted, the movie opened to AFI, but, like, I don't think AFI is a big deal anymore.

Not to that degree. you can make the case for it because of AFI, but, like, I just, I just generally, and I know that, like, in general, you hate that movie, and I really enjoyed myself watching that movie. I also think that Netflix would have actually pushed that movie in that way. The reviews weren't that bad. Right. You know, if that was the intention, Netflix would have done anything for that movie. And I didn't even get a screener for that movie, which, like, they send screeners for everything. Yeah, I mean, we can, we'll, I'm sure we'll find many ways through for future episodes for me to get in, sneak in there that I liked. I also, I will, hot takes, hot cold takes, hot takes that are, that are several years old. I think I remain a little. Noodles in the microwave. I remain puzzled as to, remember how angry people got about Birdbox, how angry, like, uh, critics, like our critics friends, or

whatever, God about Birdbox. You remember how, like, the vitriol that was spit about that movie? About how they thought it was horrid or something? Yes. People, like, talked about that movie as if it was like... I've still never seen it. It's fine. It's totally fine.

Which is why I'm not seeing. Why? You don't want to see things that are fine? What's what's wrong with things that are fine? No, I'm just like, at this point, if I've never seen it and it's just fine, why would I watch it? I would give it a watch. It's, there's some shit.

There's some, there's some interesting stuff. I think Bullock's good. It was one of those things where it, felt like people were proxying their feelings about where Netflix was headed in the movie ecosystem through this

one movie that was like not high art you know what I mean? So, and sort of getting off their chest a lot of ways that like Netflix tried to sell itself as you know

as this sort of you know, all all-knowing, all-seeing, ubiquitous, you know, entertainment thing. Sure, sure. People got really mad at Netflix saying that everybody was watching Birdbox. And, like, anecdotally, talking to people when I was home for the holidays that year, everybody kind of was watching Bird Box. So sometimes we don't like things to be true, but they are nonetheless true.

So, um... One of the first indicators that people will literally just watch whatever Netflix. Okay, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. That, I don't think, is the case. I think there are, I think to say that like Birdbox is like Netflix shoveling shit in front of the public and the public will just eat anything. I think that has nothing to do with the quality of what it is, but like the thing that they put at the like main drop when you log in, people will just press play on that. All right. Well, that's a, that's a, that's a many tendril conversation that we do not have time for that.

We don't have time for that. What were your runners up on this before we move into the next category? I think I said, right? It was Bo's Afraid. It was, oh, no, um, uh, Wonka. Oh, yeah, I meant to change that to Wonka. Yeah. You like needling me about Wonka.

You also like mischaracterizing why I like Wonka. I don't characterize it at all. I just think you're a Wonka Popatimist. I don't, I have, I don't begrudge you liking it. It felt very AI generative to me just in terms of a screenplay. but... Pop-timism to me is the propping up

of a more a sort of less heralded style of entertainment because you believe that that style deserves more like the origin of pop-timism in music was people treating pop music like high art

because the critical establishment refused to do that then maybe I'm misusing that term because to me You think my enthusiasm for Wonka was a troll No not at all I think to me Poptimism is entering into I don't want to say a product but I think this applies to music television books movies etc with a more optimistic outlook

and therefore it makes you more disposed to liking it But don't you feel like we all, to some degree or another, have a level of optimism that we walk into a movie with no matter what? I think for people like us, absolutely. And, like, no one is not victim or no one is not a perpetrator of this thing. I certainly am. Yeah. Like, I am absolutely that if, like, I'm just using optimism in the way that I've used it. I am absolutely, like, a poptimist for something like I.

I mean, you know, like, I... The idea that Eileen is your WONCA is so correct. I can't even. Yeah, that's good. I am. I am an easy lay for something like Eileen. I am an easy lay for something like, I mean, truly May December, but... Initially, the idea, I thought people were being too mean or too over the top on very little information about why they thought that Wanka was going to be horrible. one goddamn still of Timmy in a velvet jacket and top hat and everybody was like this piece of shit piss on it and kick it into the ocean like it's less about the like information

about the movie and then broadly what it is and that I think a lot of people are sick up that it's like it's existing IP that gets basically franchise having little to every sometimes just being actual carbon copies of existing things. rather than giving us something purely original. And that's, that's at least what I... It's a lot to hang on one movie, though, when, like, so much of the industry is doing that. That was my thing.

Was it was, it felt like everybody was, like, unburdening themselves of all of their frustration on one movie. Because, let's face it, sometimes people just want to, like, punch Timmy in the face because he's so charmed, and his existence seems to be, like, tiptoeing through the daisies. This is what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about.

This is what I'm talking about. I only ever see people love Timmy. I'm more so soft. You saying the only... It's a shame that Timmy is in the... You saying you only ever see people love Timmy is so wild to me. It's so wild to me. All I see is a very stark contrast between like chasing Chalemay psychopaths and people who want to make fun of chasing Chalemay psychopaths.

And by virtue of doing that, kind of, like, hate on everything he does. I see only pro, Timmy, to the point that I feel like it's getting to be Taylor Swifty in that, like, people are ready to take Kylie Jenner down because they don't think that they should be together. I have to agree. Well, this is my problem, too, is I need to find a way to thread that needle. This was my problem with Candy Muse on Drag Race is I need to find a way to not like this without. roping myself into the worst people in the world who don't like this for reasons that are worse than the, I just want to be able to like dislike an obnoxious drag race personality in peace without having to like be roped into the people who are making death threats against her grandma. Do you know what I mean? In the same phone, I like Candy Muse. That's fine. That's fine. Candy Muse is exactly the kind of person made to like divide us. Anyway, the Kylie Jenner thing. I wish it wasn't happening. But like not for. We know it's. temporary also that also that like i'm not going to like whatever make it be because you anyway you just don't want that family to get their hooks in timid yeah kind of yeah just don't

but also that does underestimate the fact that like this is a kid who's like uptown new york city went to you know uh laguardia high school dated lordis chikone when he was in school like timies maybe like had hooks in him before and maybe he'll do fine. I don't know. I feel like it's a lot of complicated feelings, but mostly, I just want people to go into Wonka with an open mind because I do feel like it's a very fun movie. And I genuinely... It's made a lot of people happy.

The movie's going to make $200 million. I genuinely really liked it. And I think it's doing things that deserve more respect that it's getting. It's all I'm saying. It's all I'm saying. That's fine. I love it. I love it.

Moving on to the next category, what do we have, Joe? Oh, God. This is the Robin Williams. It's not your fault. Hug Prize. We have a hug prize here. We give out one hug. This is where we got to be nice.

We're giving out. The Robin Williams, it's not your fault hug prize for unfortunate circumstances. So this award is for a movie that we have decided was either too small or otherwise sort of disadvantaged beyond what it's doing. artistically to have ever had a realistic chance at an award so what am i talking about when i say that i'm talking about how the the odd feeling i get when we put a movie like all dirt roads taste of salt on this list where it's like that movie was never going to get an oscar nomination guys it was so small it was so a 24 fucked over their own movie too is my thing because that's

in my run a 24 can only promote so many things you know what i mean like 824 is not universal. But they can also put that movie in more than six theaters. It's widest release was six theaters. You're right. You're right. You're right about that. And like also it goes back to the thing of like, do we seriously only ever award

one breakthrough performer? Like, Raven Jackson absolutely deserves conversation for the, for this movie. In the, in the sunniest possible version of that low, like how well does Alder Rhodes taste of salt do in an academy situation? I really am losing my voice Maybe it's one of those things that in the lead-up It does it you know That could have been a cinematography nominee

Who knows But like It could be winning Breakthrough Director prizes throughout the year You know things like that The sound design in that movie is beautiful But like to me the unfortunate circumstances For that movie is A24

All but not releasing that movie Sure okay that's fair enough Um I'm just going to, rather than do like, who's my number one another, I was just going to go through my short little list because each one sort of comments on the other. I think something like Master Gardner was never going to happen because it was basically a year and a half old

by the time we got to awards it had premiered at Cannes the year before. The previous Paul Schrader... Venice. Sorry, Venice. The previous two Paul Schrader movies had followed sort of like similar arcs

but like each one a little bit lower than the other like first reform got a screenplay nomination but like was snubbed for Ethan Hawke and and you know

people even were talking about traitor and best director and then the card counter was like nothing and like but even like there were people who were like hey Oscar Isaac

maybe make a push for it maybe whenever and then that sort of fell and then Master Gardner everybody was like I've done this rodeo before our folks like you fool me twice shame on me um and so master gardener was kind of I think it has I mean I feel less that that's uncertain unfortunate circumstances than it is

like somewhat diminishing returns I think of this loose you know man in a room trilogy it's clearly the weakest one the unfortunate thing I think is that it does house a really good Sigourney Weaver performance that just got zero attention yeah yeah because of those circumstances. I think something like showing up is a great movie that does not have a premise that appeals to a wide enough group, which is come watch this movie about an artist and sculptor who gets her day derailed by a dead pigeon that her landlord won't, you know, deal with, but she's also kind of friends with the landlord.

and, like, watch her sort of go through her day being, like, low-key frustrated by everything. And it's just never going to happen. Where everyone is just an inconvenience to you trying to achieve a single... A modicum of productivity. Yes. I think it's an incredibly relatable movie. I think there's just no way you are going to convince large enough numbers

that it is a worthy enough subject for an award. I think there's a threshold that most... awards voters probably unconsciously feel like a movie has to transcend to make it important enough to be voted for for an award and like visual artist is frustrated is probably not it even though I adore that movie and then the last one I'm going to say and this is maybe this comes is this your winner which one is your actual this will be my winner even though it probably comes closest to actually no all dirt roads taste of salt I think is my winner but this one, are you there, God, it's me, Margaret, came as close as any movie of this type could

have come, which is to say a YA adaptation from like before YA became marketable, that is so decidedly, not just like, I mean, you talk about how Barbie, people are up in arms about Barbie, not giving any respect because it was too girly, this is the movie you want to talk about. This is the movie. This is the movie you want to talk about. Because it got nothing. And it was because a whole lot of people didn't even

bother to pay attention to it because it was a Judy Blume adaptation. And released in the spring, not at a festival. Rachel McAdams is going to come very close to being my number one supporting actress of the year for this movie.

Um, it's so good. Kelly From and Craig, again, like, uh, great piece of adaptation. Great piece of adaptation. Um, but like this was, this was the one where it felt like the deck was stacked against it purely on snobbery. Like, sorry, I know, I know we've decided we don't want to talk about snobbery, but like snobbery. But like systemic snobbery in that it's like at every level. people are like, oh, well, this is a movie for kids. Yeah.

Yeah. This is a movie for little girls and their moms to see on a Sunday afternoon, and those are not movies that we award with Oscars. And, like, that's bullshitty to me. Bullshitty. This movie made me like a Benny Safty performance. I know. I know.

The power. That's heavy lifting, man. Round about, this feels like a weird movie for me to pick as my number one. I mentioned, you mentioned all dirt roads taste of salt, which was one of my runner-up slash you chose it as your number one, so, you know, whatever. And I also had a thousand and one, but I mentioned it earlier. Maybe I am just putting it in this category because I do not compute, I don't understand, and I can only chalk it up to, well, there was, I guess, a lot stacky. The whole system of this was just unfortunateness, I guess. Other people were making other priorities for other movies,

and this is where I talk about Asteroid City. Okay, let's talk about Asteroids City. Because I just wonder if the problem with Asteroid City this season is, it's hard to make a case for this movie, whereas it's not making the type of statement that Killers of the Flower Moon, is making or trying to make or like the relevance to you know the evils of american culture it's not you know a filmmaker finally getting their due like i feel oppenheimer is becoming or has become and it's not it wasn't a cultural phenomenon the way barbie was so it's like

all of the people you think would go to bat for this movie have other priorities, an asteroid city can be, like, a strong artistic statement, or like, you know, statement for some people, it's like a statement of intent for Wes Anderson or, like, you know, you're Richard

Brody, and he's like, this is a movie about post-nuclear society, blah, blah, blah. I think it's also, it's like, it's all of those things. It's also the best movie about COVID lockdowns that has been made. You keep saying this, and I keep not entirely understanding it, and I refuse to

ask you about it until we do our episode, because I want you to explain it there. I mean, like, it's a, it was written during lock. I'm not saying that you're not correct. I'm not, I am not hating on that opinion. I find it fascinating, but I don't want to hear you explain it until we do our episode on it. I want it to be fresh. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think regardless to, it's, as shocking as this may sound for a Wes Anderson movie where it's just like his sense of humor and his stylization is like right

there on front street I think this is actually a really subtle movie and subtlety for subtlety is not rewarded within the awards race generally yeah um and it's strange that that played out for this movie and not for some and uh you know you expect it somewhat of movies like a thousand and one, uh, being subtle. You expect it for things like showing up and its brand of subtlety, but you maybe don't expect it for the type of subtlety that asteroid city has. The thing that I find, or maybe Wes Anderson was leading a whisper campaign of saying, don't vote for me. I don't want to do this. Or Netflix was running a whisper campaign of saying we'll kill you if you don't, if you vote for asteroid city because we don't want to divert attention

away from Henry Sugar. Like, I don't know. I don't understand. But if you, if you, if you, if you, if You look at it, though. You can see the amalgam of things happening against this. But it goes back to when it was released, too, because it's not like, like, even when it was released, there was a more sort of mixed and puzzled reaction to it. Rather, there were a lot of people like you and me and I know some other people. Raves to the heavens. Yeah. Best, like, return to form. Best, but like, then you look at, you know, the, it's his best movie. I'm willing to call it his best. I'm not, but like, I love having that conversation. You know I did my ranking of West Anderson performances this year that I did for Vulture. Beautiful piece. Listeners, go back. Thank you. But I also, but in rewatching all the West Anderson's, I had such a greater appreciation for all of them.

And I think that put me in a really interesting position to view Asteroid City as sort of a statement of purpose, a statement of his career. What I find so kind of delightful, actually, even though it's a little frustrating. is there's that scene, obviously, where he steps out of the play, right? Swartzman and then goes through the door in the set and goes backstage and goes to talk to Adrian Brody about it. And the thing that he says is, I still don't understand the play. And Brody keeps saying, like, you're doing great. Keep doing what you're doing. This is great. And he goes out to the back and he talks to Margot Robbie, my very favorite scene in that whole movie, and they have that really emotional thing. But the thing that he keeps saying is, I don't understand the play. And in so

many of the reactions to the movie, the reaction was, I don't understand what all that stuff was about. I don't understand if you don't fall asleep. You can't wake up. I don't understand. And it's like, and I wonder if he did that on purpose. And like, I'm going to take my most elliptical sort of thing that, like, because he doesn't do this in movies. He doesn't leave viewers with, like, questions like that, right? Even in movies where you're maybe thinking he's doing something a little odd or esoteric and whatever. And I think he really wants you, in this movie especially, to consider the why of why he makes his movies like he does, why he makes these peculiar same, not same-y people, you know what I mean?

Like, that's, you know, you know, a Wes Anderson? What perceived as emotionally remote. But also visually same. You know what I mean? Just like, you know, that's why, you know, you know a Wes Anderson's frame when you see it. And to me, it's a filmmaker who I've always loved, but who I've never really taken the time to be like, I wonder what he, you know, where his heart is in this movie. I wonder where his emotions are in this movie.

And it really made me think like, oh, all of this time he's cared so deeply. All of this time, these movies have been, I mean, I should be saving this for our Asteroid City episode. But anyway, I mean, we're not going to be doing it for at least a year. So I'm sure that it'll all come up. But I love that movie. I think that there is, as much as this movie seems like a silly ensemble company, I think that there is a lot about mortality in there, in like the literal death that, you know, this family is grieving from,

but also this general sense of, are we all going to die? Like, because there's an alien invasion, they're under a quarantine. Of course, this movie was written during COVID lockdown. Like, we'll save it for the episode. Regardless, even so, without talking about the thematics of this movie and how they might, you know, resonate with audiences, just the immaculate craft of this movie. Like, you can't tell me that the, like, sets and costumes aren't more interesting or beautifully rendered than Napoleon. Like, no shade to Napoleon's visual effects nomination, though. I do think that that happened because of the exploding horses.

Very possible. Well, you look at production design. I mean, again, it's a strong year, so everything's pretty strong. I mean, I don't want to pick anything out. I guess Napoleon, but Napoleon at least is holding it down for non-best picture nominees, so I don't want to get rid of it. But, like, I'd slot it. I'd slot Asteroid City ahead of Oppenheimer and Killers of the Flower Moon,

which are both tremendously well art-decorated movies. But, like, so's Asteroid City. You know what I mean? Well, but it's also, like, the idea of they built an entire, you know, Jackfisk is among the best in the industry for like Killers of the Flower Moon. They build this entire town. Well, they built an entire town. Well, you look at Oppenheimer, Killers of the Flower Moon, and Asteroid City.

They all built entire town. Like, it's kind of amazing. I also have not the type of person that, like, you should be giving craft nominations for one singular thing, like, people that are like, this costume should have alone gotten a costume design nomination for it. I don't normally think that, but an asteroid city a vending machine

that sells real estate, I mean, come on. That should be meriting an original screenplay nomination and a production design nomination alone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Moving right along.

Yes, moving right along. Eventually. We are calling this up the ladder to the roof prize in resume building. You're building. You're ascending. You are a stepping stone to an eventual nomination.

Up the ladder to the roof. You are a menace to society. I love it. Respect to Lindsay Mendo. I love I laughed when I saw that. Okay. So, yeah, snub that will ultimately we've seen this before, right, where not getting a nomination one year

Gooses the narrative that you need to get nominated in the next year. I don't have, this one was the one that was harder for me to come up with examples for. However, I do think I maybe want to make a controversial stamp. Not controversial, but a statement that I wouldn't have expected to make before preparing this episode. And that is that I do think that the Iron Claw could be a step towards Sean Durkin getting ready. He's one of my runners up in this. Yes, yes. It helps that this is one of A24's most successful movies.

It helps, I think, in the position of, you know, everybody kind of thinks that this movie was a little screwed by how it was able. Much more so than the narratives for The Nest and Martha Marcy and Marlene, much more mainstreamed, you know, among movie fans. But I think that, yes, yes, I hear you. But I also think that, well, they did actually get what they wanted out of it, which was a hit. And I mean, I think in that way this movie was a slam dunk. And I don't really know what nominations it would have gotten. Realistically, if it had been, I mean, I think you premiere this movie at a Sundance and it all goes well there. And I think it's a very different story.

I would have been interested to see where that story went. I don't know if it's... If anything, they maybe should have, if, you know, if the world is such that, it is just rumors, conjectures, lies, befuddlement, deceitment, whatever real housewise quote I can throw in here, that the movie would have been ready for a Toronto, and they chose not to. If that's true, I think this movie gets more out of waiting for Sundance than rushing for Toronto. You know where weirdly I think this would have done well is Cannes. I don't know, because, like, I think the intention here is so mainstream.

And I also think that Sean Durkin, if there's anything that's not successful about this movie, is that it does feel like he's reaching for a more mainstream sentiment. But there is, like, he is successful in some ways with that. But the fact that he's reaching for that is to me what says he could actually eventually be on a path to a nomination in a way that we just previously felt like, well, the Oscars aren't going to go for that, even if critics are really true. trying to get him. I think the craft on display and the sort of Americana self-critique of the story would have made it an attractive can candidate. Maybe, maybe. All right. And I mean, he played there with Martha Marcy. Yeah. Okay. I did have Asteroid City on this as a

runner up for me because they do feel like the close as the closeness with which What a weird way to send this. Moonrise Kingdom coming as close as it did in its year was, I think, a helper in getting Wes Anderson to the point he did with Grand Budapest Hotel in terms of this almost, you know, happened for him, and now we're going to take a look at this more seriously. I think now the idea that like the West Anderson is back of a lot of those Asteroid City reactions and reviews, maybe has people looking a bit more optimistically towards his next one. My other... I also feel that way slightly about Priscilla, and especially that Priscilla

was her second... Sophia Coppola's second highest-grossing movie. I think that there's potential there for her. I think 1,0001 is a very good stepping stone for A.V. Rockwell in particular. I think I think Avery Rockwell's next movie is going to have a lot of light on it for that reason. I talked a little bit before about how I liked Jacob Allorty and both Priscilla and Saltburn. I think he's definitely leveled his way into, will-be-in conversations for subsequent performances going forward. My winner here, and I'm really surprised that it's not your winner as well, is passages for Franz Ruggowski. I think this season has done a lot for Franz Ruggowski's profile, even though he did not come. would think particularly close to getting a best actor nomination.

Franz Rikowski's the type of performer that, unfortunately, whatever their Oscar nomination is going to be, it's not going to be for as interesting as a performance or movie as passages. Yeah, probably not. Like, it's going to be the type of thing where, I don't know, it's going to be a war movie or something. He doesn't really seem to do those movies, though. But, yeah, I would probably stand by whatever his Oscar nomination is.

is not going to be as interesting. I will be interested to see it, though, whatever it ends up being. So I don't, I can't see him. We may, uh, we may talk about that elsewhere, though. All right. Uh, next prize is the, uh, oh, do you not have, that's your winner? Yeah. Oh, I didn't do my.

Oh, sorry, sorry, do your runner's up. Uh, seconding what you said about Avey Rockwell and 1001, I think the proof is in the movie. that her next movie, if she keeps on this trajectory, could be a stepping stone. Strangely, I also put as a runner-up Bo as Afraid, which feels like my logic behind that is Ari Aster Taking steps outside of working in horror Which he has said he does not consider himself a horror filmmaker I think

While Bo is Afraid may not fully sell this I think because he is working Towards more approachability outside of genre While still working with genre How many movies before he makes a normal one? I mean, I don't think he'll make a normal movie, but I do think he'll make, I mean, like, he's not at all a filmmaker like the Coens. And I mean, I don't want to just blithely compare someone to the Coens, but like,

would you say no country for old men is a normal movie? Like, no, like, it's normal enough. He doesn't have to make a normal movie for Oscar to recognize him. But, like, throughout his career, he's been amassing supporters like Scorsese. And I think he is inching towards finger quotes respectability. It'll be interesting to see how many movies before he gets to that level, though. I'm interested.

All right. Again, I struggled for options in that category. I think that's why I thought you had exhausted your satchel there. Next category, the Amazing Amy Memorial. Memorial, no, she's still with us, I guess, making Nick's life miserable. The Amazing Amy Still Alive, Cool Girl Prize for the film, that was, okay, so we're not saying it was too cool for the academy, because that's a self-aggrandizing statement.

What we're saying... We don't like those statements. What we are saying is that, you know, the thing we've talked about earlier in the episode, where with a large group of voters, votes tend to coalesce towards the middle. It is a large, it's a... If that is not what the law of large numbers means, then it should be. Because, like, it's a, it's that. It's, you know, in a big enough voting body... the outliers, remain the outliers, and votes sort of pile up and coalesce towards more

commonly, you know what I mean? Less challenging, less esoteric, less sort of out there movies. This is not a, this is not shade, nor is it condescension. It is just the way that things go in these things. So with that caveat all to hell, I'm going to say, that passages was one I was considering here. This is where I put Eileen. I think what Eileen was up to, and I don't know if I even necessarily was fully on board with everything that Eileen was up to,

this might have been the movie. I know a lot of people reached this point with last night in Soho, but, like, Eileen might have been the movie where the Thomas and McKenzie thing maybe has reached its end point with me. I think that's a fair critique of the movie. Whereas the accent on top of the baby bird voice, like... We can't keep seeing her play the same character. I love you, Thomason.

Just like, I believe in your talent. Let's switch it up. Yes. I am maybe a Anne Hathaway in Eileen fan more than I am an Eileen fan. But although Marin, Ireland, too. God damn, she's so good. Or in Ireland knocks the shit out of this movie. She's great.

But I generally think, like, what I lean is up to is maybe not, was, was, um, maybe never built for a large voting body to agree on. The ceiling is getting Anne Hathaway nominated for that movie. Yeah. I think a stronger campaign could have done it, though, Chris. I will, I will always believe that. That's, that's, that's maybe fair. But I, we don't have signs yet of the account. responding to weird Anne Hathaway performances,

the way that they have responded to weird Natalie Poitman performances for lack of other... Not this year. Well, not this year, no. But, like, that was a... The thing about Natalie Portman this year is, like, she was only Golden Gloke. I know. Nothing else.

So it's not just the Academy... No, no. I'll be writing several letters of complaints this season. Trust me. Handwritten and angry as fuck. Anne Hathaway is tremendous, and Eileen. Tremendous. So good.

All right. What is your choice for Amazing Amy? Cool Girl. I mean, you talked about passages. Passages is a runner up for me. Yeah. I almost want to award a tie, even though we spiritually do not believe in ties.

You less so than me. I'm sometimes fine with a tie. Okay. So I'll let passages go, even though I do think Passages is a great answer here to mention something we haven't, in the spirit of mentioning something we haven't talked about yet. And that is David Fincher's The Killer.

Another runner-up, which I didn't mention. Even though this is a Netflix movie, and obviously it's evident that Fincher did not want to do the awards thing this year. Otherwise, they would have pushed that movie at all. They would have at least made the effort. but I think the worldview of this movie is absolutely not something that the establishment or the academy is going to respond to.

I don't think that they would get that it is a comedy. I barely got that it was a comedy. Like, honestly, like truly. I can't wait to talk about this movie. I love this movie even if it didn't make my top ten. I feel like that could change. it's such an interesting movie it's such an interesting movie i i and it's so it's and it's base baseline enjoyable to watch you wouldn't think so considering how it starts like it there is how

episodic it is how kind of how slow how methodical how all of it is and yet like once i mean god the the gayest possible answer to this is once tilda swinton showed up but like honestly like Tilda Swinton shows up and basically her whole role is delivering a butt sex joke. No, it's not. It's also ordering a flight of shots. Whiskey. Downing it. And talking about Hagen-Daz a lot.

She does talk about Hagen-Daz. How could I forget? It's a great scene. It's a top to bottom, a great scene. Tilda Swinton should be on everybody's ballot for this movie. I'm sorry. But passages, yeah, like it's really, it's almost like they wrecked, well, Aside from, I don't really want to wait into the waters of industry homophobia and how they might respond to a movie-like passages, but almost like a movie-like passages, they'll respond to if it's a woman and not men.

And, like, that's also maybe a can of worms I don't want to open. I don't want to sound like, well, what about men? But, like, you know, it's, it is a, you know, a cousin of misogyny. I don't, what am I saying? What are you saying? They recognize a European, you know, sexually daring, complicated character. If it's played by a woman, they won't recognize it as a man. But it's also just like they just want traditional leading men more than they want a leading man like this.

But also just for the iris acts of it, like, I don't know. They could have pushed for a screenplay, but. I mean Our slight You definitely like this movie a lot more than I do But is not to say that I don't like this movie I understand why I fully understand why it did not get nominations

I just do Sure sure It does not leave you in a place where you want to give this movie Anything at the end You're all you're at the you get the end And you're just like Fucking God

This fucking guy. But the density of detail about that guy who is a monster and how as monstrous as he is, like Irisax is able to make us fascinated by just human behavior and human behavior that we maybe don't want to see in ourselves, don't want to like be around in other people and can make us fascinated and absorbed by that, I think. Is he fascinating, or can I just always see his belly button? I mean... That's mostly a joke. I think you're right. But yeah. Yeah. I would also add showing up to this category.

Sure. Yeah. Though we talked about them. All right. One more. We've come to the last category. The big. the best picture, if you will, for this episode, which is the Katz Memorial first episode for the class of 2023. What is the movie that we by right should be doing first? So a little backstory, Katz was the first movie where we guaranteed ahead of time that it would be the first movie from its year that we would talk about on the podcast. And I don't think we've broken this so far the movie that we agree upon as the first one we talk we haven't done this as part of the class of episode previously we have though taken care taken a lot of care in what will be the

first episode of a given year because our general rule is it's it's you know we have so few actual real rules but for movies we we want to give them their rules until we say exactly we want to give a movie a year to marinate with us before so uh Nobody wants to listen to a showing up. I mean, they do want to listen to a showing up, but nobody wants to listen to us talk about the thing that everybody is currently talking. So a year has to have passed from the time that the movie got snubbed, the movie in question got snubbed. So right now we are in January of 2024. That's the starting date for all of these snubbed movies. so it won't be until January, 2025, that any of these movies will be eligible to be... I forget if we say after nominations or after the ceremony. Well, I feel like Katz was a January movie, so I'm just going to decide that that was always our rule and...

And as with all things, Katz determines the way forward. Yes, as always. So what are the movies that in January of 2025 will be most excited to break the seal with? I mean, I'm just going to give the people what they want, and it's, um, is this the first one that I would pick for myself? No. But being a benevolent host, I think everybody wants saltburn to be first. I have three movies that are written. I have three names in front of me. Um, one of which is an excuse to carry on the cat's tradition of a movie, where we're going to say the word butthole a lot, and that is passages. We would say butthole a lot with passage. One is Asteroid City, just because I think we have a lot to say about that movie. And I am excited to say it all.

Mention it all is what we're going to do. But I absolutely agree with you. I think in many ways the people have spoken about this, in many other ways, I'm excited to talk about this movie. I will hopefully be less salty about Saltburn, not about the movie, but about the reaction to Salt Burn, which I can just characterize as way too, people are way too mad at this movie in a way that I find fascinating. People really want to cut this movie up into ribbons, and I just don't understand it. I don't understand it, but we will get into it. that Emerald Fennell is like a rich person who... Who what, though?

That's the thing. Emerald Fanel is a rich person who finished that sentence anybody who is talking about this movie. The perception is that her wealth essentially got her a job into the industry. That is, I believe, the perception that you are talking about. For me, the thing that I want to talk about that makes me angry is the TikTokification. Well, I think that's also why the haters... That I'm just like, we... need to stop devoting time

and attention to people who are stupid about movies. I don't mean to be like, gay capery about it or anything, but I'm just like, why do we devote so much attention to people who are just, like, dumb about it? They're either children or they are adults who don't have anything to do. So, like... Or people who are just like, let me post something dumb for likes, and then it gets devoured as if it's

a real opinion. Yeah. Oh, like, the world fucking sucks. Like, TikTok fucking blows. TikTok is melting our brains and is making us a dumber society by the minute, like all true. Well, this is also the people that like reacted to the Barbie nominations and still to this day are like, Greta Gerwig wasn't nominated for anything. Margo Robbie wasn't nominated for anything for Barbie. And it's like they were both nominated, just not in the categories you'd think they are. We have seated an entire corner of our entertainment industry to dumdums and people who,

think we should be chasing the demographic of said dumb-dums and I don't want to be I don't want to be like Joe nobody about anything but because like we're all fucking nobody's caring about movies and it's just like can you at least can we at least elevate opinions of Joe nobody's who watch more than three movies can we like talk about the Joe nobody's that like we have something interesting to say but you've never heard of their name before we at the very least can control who actually care about. We can at the very least control who we react to. And

I think it's harder to know whose opinion to dismiss out of hand when you can't see that it's a 12 year old. You know what I mean? But, or like whatever, like a particularly

straight-edged 17-year-old. But that was the other thing about whatever. We'll get into it. I think the larger conversation when we do have a saltburn episode is that not every movie has to be an awards movie. Agreed. The other two that I would throw out, and they're movies that we've talked about, but I do think we'll be very interesting conversations,

origin, for all of the reasons that we mentioned. And also just like one of those episodes where we can deep dive into the history of something and the complex place that it had in the ecosystem. And I do think that's the taste of things. Oh, yeah. Because that episode basically... Plus I'll get to watch it again. That's...

Rites itself in terms of the can trajectory, the relationship to anatomy of a fall, all of that. Yeah. Should we mention also our esteemed former guests who have written their name on the sign-up sheet for certain news? Shout out to... Well, and yes, these are movies that are absolutely having an episode. Roxanna Haddadi wants to do Iron Claw, which, like, if we were going to have a guess, why would we ask anyone else?

Well, the only thing was... I would ask her before I would ask Sean Durkin to talk about that movie. And it gives Roxanna a full year ahead of when I have already scheduled her to come on to talk about the bike riders with us whenever that is eligible. Because that is not going to get nominated for anything, and I cannot wait to talk about it. so clay claimed clay keller claimed asteroid city which if we have one more person speaking extemporaneously and enthusiastically about asteroid city that is going to be a three-hour episode that will be an episode that is twice as long as the well if we can force clay keller to sit for extended periods of time uh for a podcast episode i will feel the least bad about it

because we have spent plenty of four-hour marathons with Clay, happily so. So I will at least feel the least bad about making Clay sit through that with us. You know, I think our Scorsese draft with you, me, and Katie, I think any of the Gary's were not really surprised by anything that happened, and then screen draft listeners who are not Gary's were. They're getting to know us. They're getting to know our vibe. We gave them everything that they expected of us to show up on.

think we did. I think we did. Although, I guess, I still think the Raging Bull thing was probably surprised because I was surprised that Katie drafted it. I thought I was going to be making the lone stance on that one. And she... Let me reassert that my veto of the drafting of Raging Bull was overridden. I try. Are you admitting finally that something on a screen drafts that we did together did not go the way you foresaw and planned. And you are the king of, you are the king of walking about a screen draft being like, that went exactly how I just devised. That went all according to my plan. To explain my thought process, because if you remember before then, you drafted Wolf of Wall Street. Oh, I remember. And that's why I didn't veto it, because I was like,

what, I thought it was a possibility that one of you would be drafting Raging Bull. And I was like, do I save my, well, I had two vetoes, but I really wanted to carry one over because I, I, I feel like I burn them too much. And I know, I mean, I'll be back. So I want to have a carryover veto. But I was like, do I want to, am I saving Wolf of Wall Street, which may not even get saved into the top 10 anyway at that point? Or am I saving something like Raging Bull? And I had to choose to save Raging Bull. And it did. didn't work. I really was hoping that somebody would have made that calculation on the departed, because then I could have drafted Wolf of Wall Street at 11 where I wanted to draft it. And then I would have at least felt, I don't know whether people would have still been mad at me about that, but like maybe less mad had I played it at 11 where I wanted to play it. So whatever, we had a very good test. All this to say, if you're mad that Wolf of Wall Street didn't make it in, screen drafts,

Patreon members, you should have picked that and not After Hours, which we did a whole episode of loving. There's actual evidence out there that we love After Hours. Like, come on, come on, y'all. Anyway, we had a great time. Anyway, so, okay, so let's maybe run through the list. Oh, yeah, was there anything we haven't touched on?

Magic Mike's Last Dance, talk, Christopher. How much buzz did this movie, not to be a doubter, but like, how much buzz did Magic Mike's Last Dance have? I mean, it's part of that trilogy where other movies were talked about in that way. We've done episodes on the first two. Everybody forgot about this movie when it was in theaters.

And it is, and then people were like too harsh on that movie. It's the Oceans 12 of that trilogy, I would say. Which I just, I mean, I would need to see Oceans 12 to defend that movie, but I know that people do defend it. I don't think people were fair to this movie. It merits a place in this conversation because, the franchise that it's in. Yeah. Yeah, we've done episodes on the first two.

We're not not going to do an episode on the third one. Like, come on. Come on. All right, wait. Maybe we'll save it for the Patreon or something if we feel like it's too outside of the realm. Cassandra. Christopher. Cassandra, which really didn't feel like it took off.

But like, I almost put Cassandra in there as a stepping stone if I had felt like people would, unfortunately remember this movie, because I do think we will have a Gail Garcia-Bernal Oscar win at some point. Here's what I will say to you, Chris. Had Cassandro provided a five-minute scene where Gail, Garcia, Bernal, and Bad Bunny just make out, I would have talked about it somewhere. I would have put it on one of my lists, is what I will say. He's good in the movie.

I didn't love the movie, and it didn't get a ceiling for me, for sure. It didn't get enough attention, I think, at that Sundance. And Amazon, I don't really think, pushed it that much. Amazon's not good at this. They're not good at this. They're actively bad at this, both for movies and TV. Let's go to another platform that you don't like that I think maybe there's a little more credit than you give it credit for is Apple TV Plus's Flora and Sun, which I haven't seen, but I just watched the trailer, and I think I'm going to love it when I do eventually see it. You know, I debated that one in a few categories, but I actually feel like, you know, I, I predicted it to get a song nomination because up until now, you know, more often than not John Carney movies get in.

But, like, I feel like that movie kind of got it's, not its due, but, like, Eve Hewson was on that, like, was it L.A. Times roundtable? Eve Hewson's one of those ones I might have put in the up the ladder to the roof where like she's creeping closer to getting her first nomination for something, whether it's TV or this or something. Like, she's, in some ways, I feel like the true most forgettable category are the movies that we're not talking about here. And that's the next one, Fairplay. Like, we didn't even think about talking about Fairplay. But, like, Fairplay was a movie that a lot of people saw on Netflix and discussed. So, like, that was not an invisible movie. that's a movie that I still haven't seen yet, but I love Alden Aaron Reich, and you are very mean about that movie, and I will either be like, fine, you're right, or argue about it.

You sometimes think if I don't blanketly approve of everything that someone is doing, that I don't, are you about to say I don't like Aaron? No, I just, because I don't like Fairplay. No, but I can see a world in which I watch Fairplay, and I like his performance enough that I end up arguing with you about it. I don't know if there's enough there. This is like the, this is the Christopher Abbott thing where you think I don't like Christopher Abbott because I don't like on the car. This is my Berenstain Bears. I swear to God, we have argued about Christopher Abbott in the past.

And you have hated and I have appreciated. If listeners want to get in the mentions, I can clarify whatever I said that made you think that. Oh, but that is the only performance I feel like I am on the record of saying he's. Oren Ishii here being like, if we disagree on. any topic, please allow me to convince you, and I will give you all appropriate chance to let you realize that I'm right. I feel like I have never been on the record saying otherwise.

I don't think that those two performances I just pointed out, is he very good in? I think there's things that he is fine in, but the movie is not good, like sanctuary. So what do you like him in then? Christopher Abbott. I am a girl's defender. Name him. Name him. No, girls. I generally think he's a really, really good actor. I wonder if he's maybe a little like a loose canon, but I do think his abilities are good. You also pointed out Possessor, which is a movie I have complicated feelings about, but no complicated feelings about his performance. Andrea Reisbrose. Possessor is definitely the movie, because you've admitted to not liking him in the Gerard Carmel. Michael Suicide movie. But Possessor is the movie that I really do feel like you said that he wasn't good in it, and we disagreed on that.

I mean, at worst, I probably said he's fine. My feeling about that is like, why would you talk about him in that movie when Andrea Rysborough is giving that performance? Like, you talk about her in that movie. I think he's in more of the movie, though. She's in his body for most of that movie. I don't know. But, like, we're in her head.

Yeah, but we see him He's performing her We see both of them I think he gives the best performance in the movie All right, anyway The Royal Hotel is You saw and I haven't seen it yet Is it as bad as

I've heard disappointing things Not like bad but like Disappointing is a better word than bad I would maybe challenge someone saying that it's Bad It's It almost feels like it's trying to do something that's commenting on other movies or like trying to do something that doesn't

fully work in how lack there's like a lack of event in that movie in a way like it is it's it feels like it's trying to be kind of flatline in terms of like these things when they happen they're not these huge you know blow up events they are much more casual and you know steady menace rather than all of a sudden this horrible things happens, you know. But it's not a bad movie. But like, this next one I should have put on my reservation road most forgettable participation trophy, pain hustlers, a movie that absolutely existed in previews for the season and then did not exist in actual reality when it debuted on Netflix. Not a soul saw that movie. Partly because like it feels like it did not exist at the festival that it was at.

At that Toronto, at that Toronto, which everybody was calling- Because everybody decided not to see it because they knew it would be on Netflix. You know what I mean? Like that was the decision, I think, that everybody made. But it still died at the festival that people are like, well, what am I going to fill my time? It's also a movie that came out in a year where there were like 12 different, after like two years in which there have been 12 different Sackler slash opioid crisis, TV shows specifically, but also like all the beauty in the bloodshed and whatnot,

then I feel like it was hard to point to pain hustlers and be like this is doing something different. And Emily Blunt was taken care of with the Oppenheimer conversation. Because I think there was, because the thing about pain hustlers was Netflix paid a pretty penny to acquire it, to acquire the script, I guess, or something. thing um and the buzz on it early on was that this was going to be a great vehicle for emily blunt and i think once oppenheimer happened well before pain hustlers came out they were like well we

don't have to bother trying to sell people on this not very good movie like you know the emily blunt's not going to get nominated for this anyway because she's going to get nominated for oppenheimer so yeah all right what hell have we not talked we've mentioned most of them i think we actually did better this year at mentioning all the things. We mentioned it all. We mentioned boys in the boat via joke only. Sometimes that's enough. I think that's also a movie that's enough. That's not the movie's problem. That's our problem for mentioning it in that conversation because George Clooney directed it and that's not really the movie's intention. It's made a shocking... It's made a lot of money. Good for that movie. Good for George. Good for Josh O'Connor. Good for that movie making all that

money and I know no one who is... I hope that at least helps get people on board with Josh O'Connor to the point where challengers makes some money and the... Is Josh O'Connor and Boys on the Boat? Isn't he the star of the Boys on the Boat? Isn't he like... No, it's the guy that looks like Josh O'Coh. Are we sure?

Yes. Hold on. It's Harris Dickinson. It's a, um, Callum Turner or whatever. Yes. Yes. Are we sure? Sure.

Hold on. Josh O'Connor may be a supporting character, but like the... It is Callum Turner. Okay. Twink is... People sometimes think, like, I'm making too big of a deal about that. They look shockingly, when they were both in Emma, period. There would be scenes where they would go, like, I would lose track of which character we were talking to.

Because they look so much alike. I find... Well, Josh O'Connor is the priest. Yeah. I will say I only know his name now because I heard you say it. And I've seen him in multiple things and I've never tracked. He's on TV right now. What is he on?

Oh, he's in Masters of the Air. He's in the Airplane show with Austin Butler. And Barry Keoghan. Awesome, whatever voice, Austin Butler. No, the voice in this one is Barry. Like, Barry is giving voice in this. It's kind of amazing. Got it.

Got it. I think it. Um, it looks like a million bucks. It looks really good. Um, so, uh, I'm going to keep watching it. That's the thing about Apple shows. They put so much money into them and I don't know anyone who watches them, but people's dads. Like, sometimes dads needs things to watch.

I told you my parents. I'm glad that they have. My parents in, in lieu of anything else to watch the other night, watch the nest. Okay. How did that go? I meant to ask you, how did that go? As expected. Uh, well,

mostly yes um they liked it a little bit more they they they were really into kerry koon and jubla they thought they were both great um when i said they were they did the where would i know her

from thing and we succeeded on the post that they remembered her like it took a second where i was like she was in the post and my dad's like who is she in the post and i said she's the one she's the woman he's like she's the one on the phone when they get there's up they're like yes you remember so they love kerry kut

I might have convinced them to try the leftovers, which watch the space, because what the fuck. They mostly hated the ending, which I knew that they would. My parents hate an open-ended ending. They do not want to be left with ambiguity of any sort. They want an ending. They want a button put on it. So I knew that they would. And not like, there's a subtle ending that like the family is together and fine.

They want a story being happening, telling them. Their words were, what was all that for? Which like, okay. Welcome to. And they were also like, what was up with the horse getting unburied? And I'm like, it's a long story. Like, I'm like, that happens. But anyway, so that was, the reaction to the mess was pretty much what I expected.

But that's why they're loving the shit out of only murders in the building, which I have said to them for years that they would like. So that is much more. It makes much more sense. So, Chris? Miraculously, we got through the rest of the list somehow. Thank you, Catchup Entertainment, for getting us to talk about memory. Change your name. Good episode, Chris.

I want Catchup Entertainment to go into the Witness Protection Program. Change your name. Don't tell anybody about this. Change your clothes. Don't tell anyone. Leave today. You have to leave today. Can I say, because we're recording this on Virtual Sundance,

weekend. My fear this whole time during Sundance is I'm like, who's going to get stuck with ketchup entertainment? Who's going to get stuck? Who's going to get screwed over and... Well, except you've only liked one movie, so... I'm like, I've really liked two so far. Oh, okay. We're up to two. I've only seen... I have two clear favorites. Excuse me. We'll see how I feel.

We're going to have Sundance bonus. I've only seen one so far, but I'm going to try and watch two tonight if I can get my shit together. Anyway, fantastic class of 2023 episode, Chris. I love it. So I love this episode. I think it's fun that there is something that people actually look forward to throughout the year for us in this way. Nice to put a pin in thing.

I need to stop talking because my voice really hurts at this point. I was going to say, listeners got to hear you lose your voice in real time. You are a true point. I'm like Lady Gaga. In that one, the scene, isn't there a scene in her documentary where she just, like, has absolutely no voice? Or I guess Madonna and truth or dare. They go through her chronic pain. I'm much more Madonna and truth or dare, I guess.

Madonna definitely loses her voice in truth or dare. That's me. Of the many ways that Madonna and I have a lot in common, one of those. Actually, I want to say her birthday is near mine, but I could be totally wrong. I don't want to say it. Why say it? No, say it. You have to say it.

Because we're both old. Is that it? Is it an age joke? No, you're both. is late. Well, yes. Very true. Very true. Yeah, her birthday is only four days before. She's an August Leo like me. You're a cusp. I am a cusp, and I'm much more Virgo than Leo. From what I understand, you know, I think astrology is mostly bullshit. But just from what everybody seems to say about Leo's versus Virgo's, I'm like, I probably trend more Virgo. And I have a day or away. So

that's fine. Anyway, I am always late. Madonna and I, icons who can't be constrained by time, I wonder if what kept her late is what often keeps me late to these podcasts. I hope not, because I think there's a lot of things that make her not on time. Well, first of all, nobody's on time for concerts. Nobody's that late for concerts. But like, these two, you were about to say it. You were about to say it. I was going to say, I was going to say. I was going to say. say fucking I wasn't Were you now? These two were you now? People

Who do you think you are suing Madonna for showing up late? It's Madonna. Live in the real world. She's not going to be on time. I don't care if you had to work the next day. Who cares? Take a vacation day.

That's what, well, I mean, I should. You're drifting into I don't think so honey cadence right now and I appreciate it and approve of it. I mean, that would actually be good. Have they done that one yet? No, these two people suing Madonna live in the real world. What are you talking about? I hope you got the attention you wanted.

What do you expect? My sister and I showed up to Madonna. We were like, she's going to be at least two hours early. You know how, or two hours late? You know how late she was? Exactly two hours late. And you know what? She put on a fucking great show.

So get over yourself. People suing Madonna. If you were to see, I made this mistake in the other direction where. Um, my friend Jason and I, uh, saw garbage at Terminal 5. And we were very much of the, nobody ever goes. Oh, that's that awful place where it's just like they don't have chairs and everybody is just like shoved to the state. Yeah. That's basically how I was, how I was sort of raised on going to concerts though. So like, it didn't seem that unusual to me until I started seeing things at like the beacon. And then I'm like, oh, you can just sit this whole time. This is like,

lovely yeah but it's it's not just sitting it's like you have it's like your eo but not moving like everybody has a lane to like you have a designated spot sure like you don't need to sit you're just standing in that spot but like no one's shoving you because like there is a line created by your chair regardless we we were so confident that the that the show would start late because all shows start late that we ended up missing the first two songs um and one of which was push it and so I was sad that I missed garbage doing push it because I love that song.

Anyway, Madonna, oh, are you con, would you ever be confident enough that Madonna was going to start two hours late that you would like show up to the concert 90 minutes late? I mean, a lot of people did. We were like, we'll be fine. We'll get a snack.

It'll be great. And you can sit and you have seats so you can sit. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right, Chris, let's end this thing because, like I said, the voice she has gone.

We've gotten, at least when we got a field, it was at the end. You know, people can be like, they're done. That's true. They're talking about Madonna's stuck in late. Yeah, yeah. All right. You can find me on socials at Crispy File. That's F-E-I-L.

I'm on socials at Joe Reed. Read spelled R-E-I-D. Oh, I just jumped into ours, and we should be doing the podcast socials. uh please follow us uh we're so we're out of it y'all we're out of it you don't we've been doing this podcast for longer than you think actually so we have uh my fault um that's our episode if you want more this had oscar buzz you can check out the tumbler at this had oscarbuzz dot tumbler.com you should also follow us on twitter at had underscore oscar underscore buzz and on instagram at this had oscar bus and please subscribe to our patreon at patreon.com

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