This Had Oscar Buzz - Class of 2025

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

It’s the biggest This Had Oscar Buzz episode every year! Now that we have this year’s crop of Oscar nominations, that means it’s time to welcome a whole year’s worth of films to the THOB fold. We unpack the Class of 2025 in all its glory, from the films that deserved better to the ones … Continue reading "Class of 2025"

The house. No, the right house. I didn't get that. I'm from Canada water. Dick Poop. The nominees for achievement in costume design. Avatar, Fire, and Ash.

Elle Fanning and Sentimental Value. The Ugly Stepsister. Sweet dreams of joy from Viva Verdi. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, only podcast getting Flirty in Florida with Kathy Bates. Every week on this had Oscar buzz. We normally talk about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations,

but for some reason or another, it all went wrong, et cetera. The Oscar hopes died. We're here to perform the autopsy. But this week, it's our annual post-Oscar nomination unpacking of all the would-be awards titles that had Lofty Academy Arras. See, you know, I got Flirty in Florida without tripping on it. And then I have to trip on the second. You understand what we're here to do.

It's the class of 2025 episode. We are not going back. We are not re-recording anything. We are on the fly. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my Brazilian shoe, Joe Reed. Folks, if you're in it... Brazilian boot. Brazilian boot.

Folks, if you're still in line to vote for the girl on the bubble, you can get out of line. You can go home. It's over. It's so over. Zero nominations for Wicked. We're going to talk about it. We are going to talk about it in the context of the way that we're here to talk about things today.

But I know we should maybe just talk about this at the top. This is the number one thing on all of our listeners' minds, judging per all of the comments. It was amazing how quickly the at replies started rolling in about Wicked, forgets. good. Made me feel like, oh, wow. Like,

to the point, I was like, they're waiting, our listeners are waiting for a wicked for good nomination. Yeah. Happen because they're going, they are, I could just feel that they were ready to jump on them.

Did you realize it like in the moment that Wicked for Good got blanked or, because like I, I'm, as I tend to do, I'm, uh, following along with my nerd list, which I still do.

It is now totally digital, which I was worried would take a lot of, the magic out of it, which whatever. But it's still very handy to know as you're going through to see who's missing. And I obviously, you know, clocked that Ariana Grande didn't get nominated, which was one of the, like, sort of will they or won't they cases that I had going into the nomination. So that was definitely a thing. But I don't think I had clocked that Wicked didn't get anything. And it also clocked the song.

It was like a few minutes after. I was like, wait a second. Hold on. It was already like in the conversation because it was missing big things early like Ariana Grande. And then it missed song. And correct me if I'm wrong, but costume was pretty late. And all along I was thinking to myself, it's not going to completely blank. Paul Taxwell's going to get a nomination in costume and that'll be it.

Probably production design. And then, yeah. When costume happened, I was like, oh, it's over. See, that was the one that... I think I was maybe more thrown by Avatar getting nominated in costumes and I was like... Avatar getting nominated in costume

for Varang slaying basically, you know, like... Yeah, exactly. For... The only interesting thing about... Well, whatever, I'm not going to start an avatar fight. The one thing that everybody kind of agreed on was good in Fire and Ash was Verang.

And Verang, famously, like, not too terribly closed. Dressed in a Georgist design challenge out basically. Complementary. Brackets complimentary. Derogatory. Utterly derogatory. But no, the thing about the avatar

costume nomination, it's crazy that it got that and not like sound and production design. That it didn't get sound. It didn't get sound, but it did get costume design. There were a couple of situations like that where I was like, oh, that's interesting

that something else, I think it was one of the Hamnet nominations where I was like... The thing that I think is crazy is that Colleen Atwood, who has so many costume design nominations, had multiple contenders this year, including one of the best picture front runners

and wasn't nominated. That's wild to me. Was Colleen... What was Colleen? One battle after another and Kiss of the Spider-Wil. Oh. Man, people don't appreciate... And I think something else...

People don't appreciate a good thing. bathrobe. Yeah, that's... The two-two skirt and leather jacket combo, come on now. I will say, there were a bunch of categories, there were a couple of categories, I shouldn't say a bunch, there were a couple of categories

that I assumed... I was like, Sinners is probably going to get in everywhere. Spoiler alert, it did. I was like, one battle is going to miss on a couple of these craft categories, and I think I was inaccurate as to which ones. it would miss.

I don't think I predicted it in sound and I don't think I had it predicted in maybe production design. Which it didn't get. Yes, it did. Oh, it did? Yeah. Okay.

Yes. And your intrepid reporting getting in early on that sinners had the potential to break the nomination record. Did it ever. And then it did it without even the help of this new category for casting, which is awesome. My colleague Nate Jones pointed out something very important to note, which is, even if it had

only gotten 15 and people tried to play the asterisk game with the casting, it's important to note that movies like, you know, La La Land or whatever got the record when there were two sound categories. You know what I mean? So it's like, we're not really, and, you know, all about Eve, there was, you know, I don't even know what categories existed or didn't exist. You know what I mean? So we're like, we're, we've always been playing with, you know, uneven playing fields. So I don't think, but I'm glad we don't have to play that game.

I'm glad we don't have to play. Now the game we have to play is how can sinners get 16 nominations and not win best picture, which is, um, oh, I think it's going to win. Oh, you do think it's going to win. I mean, unless we hear certain things between now and the non-executive. nominations being open. I mean, I think, I mean, I'm sure some people have their eyes bulging out of their head at this statement because of how much, you know, one battle has been taking all season. But I've always kind of thought sinners would be better positioned in a preferential ballot than one battle would. And, well, see, this is the thing about sinners because you see all these headlines of like a horror. movie just broke all the records and I'm like yes but the power of sinners has kind of always been that it's so many genres in one movie like and that you know Ryan coogler does something so smart with like the substance of what the movie is about is also about that and you know

what the movie is about also interacts with each of those genres in a unique special way that like, I think that's part of what the strength of this movie is and why it resounds with so many people. Sinners is the rare Oscar movie that contains its Oscar narrative within its actual structure. Because, like, the idea of watching Sinners and then not voting for sinners, you're just like, wait a second. Am I the Jack O'Connell vampire?

You know what I mean? Like, am I part of the problem? I don't think that's an insane thing to say. Obviously, you know, the movie that gets 16 nominations is certainly going to be a threat to win. I still feel like one battle has the edge. Sinners is probably going to win Sag Ensemble, which is going to, I think, push things even further in that direction. You had made the prediction in our group chat that you think Sinners is going to win PGA, which would be a real indicator, I think, there.

So I imagine you're thinking Sinner's picture, Paul Thomas Anderson, still for director. Yeah. I suppose I could see that. I don't think I'm ready to move off of one battle just because it just has never not felt like the winner. It's been anointed for a while. I don't even so.

I think Anointed has. holds a little bit of a pejorative to it. I don't mean it pejoratively, though, because I certainly love that movie. No, but that, but I, and I don't think that's your intention. I just feel like, because I do feel like that is probably going to be a thing that is, you know, used against it, that it is this kind of pre-determined. Yes, which is crazy. Which is crazy. Crazy to think of, yeah.

But that being said. I think even without that, I think Sinners is still better positioned in a preferential ballot. I'm a little relieved that at least at the moment, it seems like Hamnet is going to be spared, having to defend itself as the movie that beat out one battle after another in Sinners, because they don't think that's going to happen anymore. It's not going to happen. And I was very much bracing to have to sort of elbow my way out of various discussions. And not because it has several movies with more nominations among the Best Picture nominees than it has.

I mean, so did Cota. Look back at Cota. Cota had three nominations and it won all of them. I mean, the history, the recent history of the most nominated movie, just sort of like paging back through the last several years. Like, yes, Anora and Oppenheimer were the last two. But, like, you look at stuff like Coda, you look at stuff like, I don't think Nomadland was the nomination leader, right? I think that was Mank. I think it was Mank.

The Dog, obviously, we mentioned, was most nominated. Everything Everywhere, of course, was the most nominated. Oh, no, Anora wasn't the most nominated. And of course, Amelia Perez, we figured, yeah, Amelia Perez had 13 nominations even after all of that. That's so funny. That's so crazy. I mean, like, we were on board with being like, this is crazy all season, that season. And, like, that's a movie that looks like shit.

That's a movie that sounds. We don't need to talk about Amelia Perez for a second Oscar season. We really don't. Any last notes on the actual nominations? Let's talk about what made us happy. I mean, Delroy Lindo made me so... I whooped at Delroy, I whooped at Kate Hudson. Those were the two times that I actually like in my little room all alone.

I will say, I am not anti-Kate Hudson, but when I say I am very happy for the people who are very happy for Kate Hudson, I do mean that. I love seeing that joy for people. It's not, and I swear to God, I'm not just being a weird, like, shit poster about this. Like, I genuinely think she's great in that movie, and I genuinely think she deserves a best actress nomination. You know what movie I've had more actual people in the real world talk to me about than any movie this season? Song Sung Blue. Good. Good.

And maybe that's because I live in the state of Ohio. I saw some poster somewhere. I can't remember whether it was Blue Sky or I've been dipping into the erstwhile Twitter more than I should be because of it's the only place where people are talking about the bills right now. And the bills are at dumpster fire. So I need to like sort of like dip into that. But I'm seeing of course other takes. And somebody had been like mentioned song song blue being like a movie that doesn't exist. And somebody that I follow quote to it was just like it's the it's in the in the category, it's the movie that's made the most money in that best actress category. Yeah, that movie has made

more money than quite a number of. of best picture nominees. Yes, yes, exactly. I predicted Kate Hudson, so I was happy. I had really went out on the limb and best actress because I predicted also Eva Victor, and that obviously didn't happen. Sorry, baby, we'll be talking about it. Julia Roberts, your edible arrangement got canceled. I went out on a limb and predicted the Renata Rinesva snub, which they definitely went the other way with that. They nominated sentimental value quite a bit. to the point where I now think it's the frontrunner in international feature and also maybe original screenplay, although I do think it's probably just going to be sinners. I think one of the more competitive categories, but I do think Senors is still going to win.

I think it's going to be, I mentioned this to you before we started recording. I think in most categories, you're going to have to make a very good argument. to me as to why it won't be either sinners or one battle after another. I think the acting categories are their own thing, but I think once we get beyond that, I think it's just going to be sinners versus one battle kind of everywhere. I was also very happy at the makeup nomination for the ugly step-sister. You know I wanted, like, gross, disgusting gore nominated in this category. It is a gross, disgusting makeup assignment, so very good for that. I get that we had the subsisting. last year, but like the substance was never not going to be nominated once that ball got rolling.

But it's worth, like, it still happened. Yeah. The substance is also gross, but this is not what I mean when I say that. Yeah, ugly step-sister. And ugly step-sister kind of came out of nowhere, although that category, makeup and hairstyling, is a good object lesson for the future. And I predicted, I got that category four out of five. I predicted cuckoo-ho, but I did not predict ugly step-sister.

But it goes... I didn't predict it either. It goes to show the thing that I tend to always say, which is, if a movie shows up on the shortlists, and you're like, what is that? And why is that here? Keep an eye on it. Because... I don't know what Viva Verdi you're talking about. Well, song is its own weird beast.

But I think usually if a movie sort of overcomes... its own obscurity to show up on the short lists, there's a reason for it. People are like genuinely enthusiastic about it. It's one thing for something, you know, like, even like the lost bus or smashing machine, which are sort of in the conversation, although those two both obviously escaped our grasp. The lost bus, I was predicting that all season, because like you listened to visual effects artists talk about their work. And they're like, fire is incredibly difficult. And so I was like, hmm, this is going to get a weird visual effects nomination since like Toronto.

I was saying that. And then what do I do on my final predictions? I drop the lost bus off of my prediction. It's like an idiot. It always happens in one or two cases. I hadn't seen it yet. It's on my list of movies I still have to see. And I wonder if I had seen it, I would have.

But I wonder if I had seen it and had seen the fire effects. I would have predicted it because CGI Fire is one of my big bugaboos. It's one of the things that always to me looks fake is when... It does not look real in this movie. Well, then, what the fuck is it doing

in best of visual effects? I mean, there's a lot of it. So the task is really high. It's also a movie that I found near impossible to tell what you were looking at at any given moment.

Well, that doesn't seem very good then. My good wish is to you. Everything I hear, also I keep forgetting that's a greengrass movie. Greengrass movies, we should maybe put a pin in this for the future. Greengrass movies do well in craft categories. This goes back to the fucking weird little covered wagon movie. What was the one? News of the World.

News of the World. Do not make me. watch Green Zone. I will be so mad. I'm not going to make you watch Green Zone. I'm just going to say that for the future, we should maybe put a pin

in a Paul Greengrass movie, even if it feels like it has missed the mark in terms of generalized buzz. The tech branches, the craft branches, do like a Paul Greengrass. Last

things we want to say about the nominations themselves before we did. Can I say I got casting five for five? I predicted casting five for five. I think I wasn't super hard. I think Secret Agent was the only one that seemed pretty surprising. I got adapted screenplay and something else and that was all I got five for five. It was not my year. I got supporting actress, supporting actress adapted screenplay, animated feature and casting. Those are the ones that I got perfect. Maybe I got casting. My No, I was predicting Sirot. I only got two for five once, and that was VFX.

I did not see... I was up a creek. What did I say for VFX? I had predicted... Too, do, do, do, two, two, two, two, two, hold on. Sorry, I'm scrolling the Ancler pundits. I predicted Avatar, which got it, and then sinners, which got it. And then I predicted Frankenstein.

I predicted Wicked for Good. And then Tron Ares. So, as Katie reminded me, I do not have to go back and finish watching Tron Aries. I do have to go back and finish watching Jurassic World Rebirth. So the list. I'm not watching that. The list giveeth and the list take it away. Well, if you don't have to, then, you know.

One quick note, thank you to the makeup branch for nominating the smashing machine, so I never have to watch that shit again for this show. You don't want to do it as an exception. Over my dead one. And then this is, I think, the first, I haven't gone back and actually verified this, but I think this is the first time since college, that there is a best picture nominee that I didn't see pre nominations, and that is F1. F1, yeah. Are you going to see F1?

I'm going to watch F1. It's the best picture nominee. I'll be kicking and screaming and pouting the whole time. I will say for, I'm not at all interested in any kind of car racing for as much as a sportsy as I am. I didn't feel miserable watching F1. It's a very watchable movie. I'm being ridiculous. I'm going to watch the movie in a neutral stance and try to enjoy it.

It's less annoying than Top Gun Maverick. I will say that. It doesn't have a lot of the sort of like. You know how I hated that movie. I know. And I don't think you will hate F1 on that. Also, Carrie Condon is very charming. I still get people talking shit about me talking shit about Top Gun Maverick as if, like, that movie's quality is an objective truth.

And people can't have their own opinions and their own perspectives, especially about, I don't know, military propaganda. F1 doesn't have that. F1 has Carrie Condon. F1, I will say, I know, we don't all necessarily have to hand it to breakfast. Brad Pitt. Brad Pitt is looking fwine. If we want to say fwan, he's looking fwine and fun. Did he make a trip to Turkey prior to the filming? I'm less attuned to that. I, you can make, you can tell me. You tell me if he's made a trip to turkey. I didn't really focus on that. I just like looks real fucking good. The last thing I have to say about fwun before we move on is I've seen a lot of people

bemoaning this nomination and calling it just the heteronormative vote and that it is just the steak eater. We always talk about the steak eater vote in the academy. And I don't actually, I think if anything,

it is some of that. And it is, we are seeing what the populist international vote is for the academy. And we're talking about the international academy members a lot in the recent years. Yeah.

Because that movie is way more popular overseas than it is here. This was another observation that Nate made in his recap of the nominations on Vulture. So I'm glad that there is a little bit of a counter-narrative to that. Because, right, the Stakey-Gy-year-thing seems to be the, I would say, easy first reaction to that. The other thing that I mentioned to our friend and former guest, Roxanna Haddhi, which was Ford versus Ferrari and F1 getting Best Picture nominations are... Two different things. Two very different things. But are kind of a low-key, fuck you to Michael Mann. Because it's like, we love a Vroom, Vroom Car movie except for when Michael Mann directs one.

But such as... So it is. So it is. Yeah, Ford v. Ferrari was a dad movie. Like that was to all the dads in the academy, and that worked. Not a good movie. All right. All right, let's move on to it.

Joe, we like to break these down into categories where we get to anoint superlatives, if you will. Anyway, oh, I didn't put any copy about our Patreon listeners. Coming in three weeks is our superlatives over on the Patreon. That's the big thing that we should plug about that. Consider it the ungovernable tethered to the class of 2025. If you always check in with our 2025 or our class of episodes, you're going to want to listen to the superlatives over on the Patreon. Patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Exactly.

Here on the class of episodes, we like to break them down into categories to talk about certain movies. Give them little superlatives, if you will. We try to mix it up every year or give little tweaks to it every year based on the movies we want. want to talk about. Joe, since you get to say the first movie, why don't you give us the first category we're doing? Sure, the first category of the night, our best supporting actress, if you will, is what we are calling the Casey Becker slash Marion Crane Gone Too Soon Award for the film whose Buzz died early in the season. I think one of the things that's interesting about doing this episode every year is I get to go back and sort of realize that like this time last year,

hope sprang eternal and the possibilities really were open for quite a lot of movies that now one year later, we look and we're like, oh man, like, how did that ever have a chance? So the movie that I'm picking for this is Koganada's A Big Bold Beautiful Journey, which... Did you see it? I did. Okay. And I'm not surprised that it didn't really go anywhere. It's one of those movies where it doesn't give me a ton of impetus to sort of shit-talk-it. I imagine that won't be the case for everybody.

I think there is something in this movie that kind of pokes at people's bullying instinct. Which, fair enough. I think I said Dan Fogelman vibes. So maybe that is a... Oh, no. That's the meanest thing you could say about a movie. Maybe true. And you're here saying, I'm not bullying this movie, and you're in Doug Dan Fulkeleman.

Apparently. It's just... It's very... I suppose one could call it Smarmy if you wanted to sort of ascribe sinister intent to it or sort of smug intent to it. I think every once in a while you just sort of sort of... encounter a movie that is very, I don't know, like pie in the sky about our, you know, dreams and hopes and childhoods and, you know, if we could just learn to, you know,

trust in love or something, you know what I mean? It's just like, yeah, it's, it's, I see what you mean by it's going to poke at people's bullying and, especially in the year of our Satan 2020. I think there's only so much I'm going to dis- To be fair, I do not think this is a good movie. I do not think this is a movie that, like, succeeds in its objectives. There's only so much I'm going to sort of bitch and complain about a movie where I can sort of just like look at Margot Robbie and Colin Farrell being, you know, beautiful movie stars. It seems like you're, you think that it is not a good movie, but you respect its intentions.

Maybe. always, you know, worthwhile. And I just think... Would you say that it's also a movie, since you've seen it, I have not? That it's a movie that's already at a disadvantage being the thing that it is, but then being released in an Oscar season. Released in an Oscar season in the kind of like dead zone of Oscar season, right? It was released in September, I'm pretty sure.

It also... These are not the kinds of movies that get Oscar nominations anymore. They just, you know, they don't. I do think Coconut is an interesting director and would not surprise me if, you know, in the next few movies that, you know, there are, there is Oscar, you know, potential there going forward. I think there is something to the movies that he makes that feel like they are grasping at big ideas. and I think at some point the Oscars will sort of connect to it.

I think this is just this is not the flavor of movie that gets Oscar nominations anymore. It does surprise me that, like, this is the kind of movie that could get like a best original song.

You know what I mean? At some point, there was a Mitzky song? You're the Mitzky person. Was the Mitzky song in Big Bold Beautiful Journey original to the movie? Do you have any idea? It didn't make the short list for song. I know that. I don't think so.

Because she did a cover for After Yang. And I think the cover on Big Bold Beautiful was Let My Love Open the door. I think that was Mitzky who did that cover. If it is, I've maybe heard it once. Yeah. Was Mother not mothering enough for you on that song, Chris? Was Mother not mothering enough for you on that song? You know I'm not an annoying Mitzky thing.

No, I just think of that. That's still my number one touchdown for Mitzki. I'm just shut the fuck up person. That's still my number one touchdown for Mitzky. His mother is mothering. Shut the fuck up. It's so good. I will get you to listen to Mitzky because I think you would like her.

All right. Let's move off of Big Bold Beautiful, though, because we're doing that problem. We're doing the John Mullaney, drawing the happy birthday sign, and we're starting with the big ass age. What is your choice for the Gone Too Soon award? This, there was kind of no. I had no other movie in my mind because this one looms so large, and that's Derek C. and France's Rufman. Good movie.

Good movie. I think a lot of people thought it was a good movie. I saw some dissenters for that movie, and I think they were kind of missing the point of the sea in France of it all and the type of guy that he's interested in. It's a huge key to unlocking what's really good about that movie. And I understand that, like, not, you shouldn't have to know a director's whole deal to know why a movie is good, but it really helps to sort of, like, get to a second level with Roofman. And I think it helps you be a little more impressed by that movie, his ability to still do a lot of his things, but to be really expanding his, like, narrative language and, like, the type of tones that he can do, better than he did with, say, like, Light Between him. notions.

Channing Tatum's incredible in this movie. I know that, like, I am, if there are no Channing Tatum fans, then I have died, et cetera, about Channing Tatum, I do think this is some of his best work. Kirsten Dunst was, here's the thing about Kirsten Dunst is, while Roofman really struggled to get, like, a hold on this season, she was the one who, like, stuck around in conference. She's a Spirit Award nominee. for this movie.

She is. I feel like the signs are there that the next time she's in a race, she's going to have a really good shot at winning. Because I think now that we've cracked the lid on getting her Oscar nominated, everybody's like, oh, yeah, she is like one of the best of her generation. I agree. So we'll see there. I think...

I think Channing fell a little bit of victim to how many major contenders were comedies at the Golden Globes because I do feel like I could see a world in which Channing got a best actor in a comedy nomination. This is a tough year to try to get a best actor nomination. When you've got Timmy Chalamee and Leo DiCaprio in that category, like you're already

at such a disadvantage. And Michael B. Jordan. Well, no, Michael B. Jordan was in drama. Oh, oh, you're just, you're still talking. I'm talking best actor at war. Oh, in general, yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Agreed. I was so glad that Ethan Hawke was able to hold on

because I was really, that was a lot. That was one of my number one concerns going into the nominations was like, oh, God, who's, like, is Ethan Hawk going to, you know, slip away at the very last second? Well, and Ethan Hawk, that's a big, that's one of my favorite performances of the year. That's a big performance. Channing Tatum in this movie is a very, very subtle performance. There's, like, big, like, you know, comedy. He's sort of Eddie Haskeling a little bit, but, like, yeah, in terms of, like, what he does really well, it's, it's, you have to sort of, of like, you know, see through a lot of that bravado, right? A lot of that bluster. Yeah.

And I think there was a lot of talk of what 10 years ago, 15 years ago, this movie would have made so much money, blah, blah, blah. I do think that there is the way that this movie was received. I feel like this movie is fresher than that. But like a lot of people thought it was old-fashioned, which didn't help. I definitely would agree with the notion that if this movie had been able to, you know, bang out $50 million or something like that, that would have made a huge difference in terms of it showing up in awards. I think it was one of several sort of middle-class movies that there was a real and depressing narrative throughout the months of, like,

like, September, October, November, up until Thanksgiving, up until, you know, Wicked happened, where the fates of a lot of movies at the box office that you thought should have, nothing that you thought was going to be like a blockbuster, but like the fact that like Roofman didn't hit, the fact that Smashing Machine disappointed to the degree that it did, these are movies that in another era would have found an audience. Even if I don't think Smashing Machine is very good, I think it would have found an audience. The fact that Christie did so bad, you know what I mean? Christy did so bad for a company that is normally a production company that decided to make its first distribution title.

But even still it did bad. But even still, it performed poorly. And I mean, but you know what made more money than most of the Best Picture nominees? Roofman. What did Roofman end up at? Was it like 20? I think around like 25. Was it 25?

Okay. So, well, two of the Best Picture nominees are Netflix, so you can't count those. Bagonia, I think, ended up around that Roofman number. Oh, was it? Okay. Yeah. Third highest grossing, Yorgo. movie. Hamnitz around like 14, I think, right now.

Roofman closed at about 23 million. Wow, good for Roofman. Okay. But even still, like, you just imagine that, like, it's very easy to imagine that movie making $50, $60 million, you know, in a more healthy era for the actual... I wonder what that movie would have done is summer counter-programming. Yeah. Because, like, how much did that Shanneng Tatum dog movie make? Well, and like, what did Roofman benefit from doing the festivals?

Nothing. Nothing. It didn't really benefit from being at TIF, you know what I mean? No. So I think more movies should embrace being a late spring movie. I feel like that's my new bugaboo. That's my new thing is like, I've been on the, I've been here. Open in April and early May.

Like, do it. Like March, like March through the second or third weekend of May. Even like, like Memorial Day weekend is not a thing anymore. 16 nominations opening in November when it has less time to establish that narrative. No, part of the strength of sinners, everything everywhere all at once is that they play for so long. They get everyone to see them because the biggest struggle, as we talk about with things like, it was just an accident and all of these movies is that the Academy doesn't watch all of these movies. And like something like that, you have a longer time for people to see your movie.

Yep, yep. Agreed. Agreed. All right. All right, next category, we're calling it the Slighting Doors Award for movies. Oscar trajectory or narrative was usurped by another film. Yes. I think this happens quite a bit, actually, where at the beginning of a season, you look at something and you can sort of see if this movie is going to do well with Oscar, this is how it will do well. And then you get to the end of the season and you're just like, oh, yeah, that happened, but it happened for this other movie. What's your opinion? For me, and I know listeners are going to probably roll their eyes because I'm going to be making one of my regular complaints.

Or it's like the villain of this complaint is one of my regular villains. My answer for this is Wake Up Dead Man and the villain here is Netflix, kind of forgetting about not burying, but like... It's what they all, it's what they did with Glass Onion with this movie. But I think especially this year, and it's not like it was usurped by one movie. It was usurped by their slate. It felt like Wake Up Dead Man was never really included in conversations of what their award slate was. Like, Wake Up Dead Man was kind of just treated like regular Netflix programming. And this is after the first two movies get screenplay nominations and this one doesn't.

And in my opinion, this is definitely the best of the three. Was it the NBR top 10 where Wake Up Dead Man showed up or was it AFI? where all of a sudden it's like, oh, they nominated, they put like five Netflix movies on that list. I forget. Wake Up Dead Man showed up somewhere. You keep talking. I'll look it up.

And by my estimation, it's their best movie this year, maybe with the exception of cover-up. And, you know, I think there were some, like, diminished expectations around this movie. I think the immediate TIF response, around a lot of people and I was kind of trying to buck against this was somewhat disappointment. I think people were let down by how little they perceived the ensemble to be a part of this movie. But I think thematically, it's so rich. I think being willing to have a conversation around faith and forgiveness and overt religious themes, I think is pretty bold.

and almost necessary in the times that we're in. It's a movie that I think about a lot, and I would not expect that of a fun Benoit Blanc movie. Josh O'Connor is incredible. In the past few years that Josh O'Connor has had, I don't think you would be out of pocket to say that this is the best Josh O'Connor performance. I wouldn't offer that up. It's my choice for the best Josh O'Connor performance this year.

a year full of very, very good Josh O'Connor performances. I mean, like, you're not wrong, but my pick would still be the mastermind, but anybody who puts it on this performance, you're not wrong. I just think that there's so... It'll be fun to do an episode on this eventually.

I think there's so much ripe about this movie. I think it came along at the exact right time. I think by the time it ended up on Netflix and people were watching it, I think you heard a lot more people surprised at how much it affected them. Yeah.

I think Netflix was just, it was very clear that there were contentious feelings internally around this movie and Glass-on-Yen and, you know, getting this movie in theaters. And I think that that led to this being kind of the bastard stepchild of Netflix where they're happy to get whatever views the week that it debuts on the platform.

And it did not do as well as Glass Onion did in that very, very limited theatrical window. This sort of goes back to my thing with Netflix in general, which is, if you're not going to push a movie like this for awards, what good is it for you? Because you're not getting, it's not like they have the, well, it's either an awards movie, or a box office movie because they don't have box office movies. So, like, does a movie like Wake Up Dead Man really drives subscriptions that much? Does any one movie really drive subscriptions that much? And we don't have any kind of data about that. So we don't really know what we're just sort of left to sort of trust that Netflix's strategy, you know, pays off in some

certain way. But it always seems to me to be a little bit of a crapshoot as to what does blow up on Netflix. So... Another thing I think they fucked up that they could have had a slam dunk is... Glenn? And I know that it's hard

because especially leading up to the movie, you can't talk about Glenn Close in this movie, but like they left a supporting actress nomination on the table. They really did. And it's because they gave it no push whatsoever. Yeah. Whatsoever. Yeah. I agree with you. I agree with

It was the NBR, by the way, that Wake Up Dead Man did show up. There were four Netflix movies on the NBR list. Jay Kelly was on the NBR list, Wake Up Dead Man, and then Train Dreams in Frankenstein, along with... They did get F1, so that's where that ball got rolling. Sinners, Wicked for Good. Rental Family is going to be the... Oh, boy. We are going to have to do an episode on Rental Family.

We'll get to that movie in a second. My pick for a Sliding Doors Award for Oscar Narrative Usurped is Die My Love, which is a movie I liked, and I don't know how much I want to say that there were how realistic it would have been for Jennifer Lawrence to get a nomination for Die My Love, but then you look at Rose Byrne getting a nomination for If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You, and you can sort of see the similarities that like, and if you know me and if you've been... They're both very, very dark comedies. Very, very dark comedies about sort of postpartum, not, well, Jennifer Lawrence is postpartum psychosis, but Roseburn is more sort of parenting stress for a, you know, sort of grade schooler who is sick and... Worthy of love, but also maddening.

You know what I mean? Like one of those kind of things. I mean, if you know me... They're both movies that make you laugh and cheer for the death of an animal. Yes. Well, and if you've been around me, and you know this because, you know... Joe is like, my time has come. Well, no, stop.

I've been a cheerleader for both Roseburn and if I had legs, I'd kick you for the entire season. I think this movie probably deserved for five Oscar nominations. I think it's so good. I like to die my love quite a bit, but I think if given the choice between the two, I'm glad that it was Rose who got the best actress nomination. But I think if I think the path to getting a nomination for Jennifer Lawrence, and I do think like we are at most like three years away from Jennifer getting back into the Oscar conversation. It does feel like we're kind of all the way back with Jennifer, where, you know, she's back to. You know, she's back to. enjoying doing press again seemingly. Did you see her? Have you seen any clips of her on the Amy Polar podcast, the Golden Globe winning? At this point, I've basically listened to the whole episode,

and I have not pressed play on the episode. Oh, I don't, I don't, I don't listen to that podcast. I only experience it via short form clips. But the clip of her doing the De Niro impersonation, have you seen that one? Yes, of course. It's incredible. It's incredible. She's had an incredible award. It's been so, for as much as I always say, it's been so good to have Gwyneth Paltrow doing the Oscar gauntlet. Jennifer Lawrence back in the game.

I will say the Gwyneth clips that I'm fed from the Amy Polar Show. Better than the Jennifer Lawrence one. Well, sure. If you want to pit women against each other, that is your business. But, um... You bastard. That's not what I say. No, the Winnith clips have been absolutely incredible. But my, I guess, to boil it down, if there was a path for Jennifer Lawrence to get nominated for this movie, for a Lynn Ramsey movie, for a movie this intense,

it would have been the Roseburn narrative of nearly sweeping the critics awards and being like the critical, the LA confidential to Jesse Buckley's Titanic. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. And I'll have more to say on Die My Love in a minute. But Die My Love is probably too divisive to be that, even with a performance like Jennifer Lawrence's, that I think people are pretty unanimous. But you could see if I had legs being a similarly divisive movie. You know what I mean? And I think the strength of that critical consensus, I think it led to awards voters being like, yeah, you know, you're right, critics. Like, we'll go with this one.

And I guess, I mean, I don't want to open up the hard truth's conversation again, but I guess you could have also said that about last year, and Marianne John Baptiste, and they didn't go for her in that case. But I'm very happy for Roseburn. She is at last an Oscar nominee after deserving it so many times for more broad comedies. I'm glad at least she got it for this very, very, very dark comedy. Good for her. Agreed.

Next category. Next category. The Patrizia Regiani Award. I think we previously had a different Patricea Regiani Award, which is like we're just going to keep naming things after Patricia. It's just... She is all mothers in all circumstances. I think next year we should do the Patricia Reggiani Award for taking out the trash. Eventually, we'll just name the big prize, the one that gets the first, the Petroutia Regiani.

This year's Patritsia Regiani Award is for a good and or fun campaign that still fell short. I'm going to – mine is more good campaign than fun campaign, so I'm going to be brief. I think – who was the studio behind Nouvelle Vogue? Netflix. Oh, fuck, you're right. God, I didn't even think about that. God, talk – well – see, NouveauVogg – Ended up in the conversation.

C-tier one, and even that got a better treatment than Wake Up Dead Man. New Velvog ended up with a Golden Globe nomination for musical or comedy. This is another one. We have a category that touches on this later, but like, I want to see the vote totals for cinematography. I want to see how close New Velvog got to cinematography because they do believe it was close. I do believe it was as well. Newvovog, not a movie that I love or think is great, but I have. had such a good time watching it.

Yeah. It's like best case scenario for a My Week with Maryland type of movie. I don't think it's a very good script. I am still struggling with the greater Zoe Deutsch project. I'll probably get there eventually. I'm out. I used to be in on Zoe Deutsch. I'm out.

Are you? Because of this movie? No. Wait, who I... Wait, the way you said that makes it sound like she knows what she did. Like, it makes it sound like she, like, slated you in personal life. No, we'll talk about it. What I wish got more attention for this movie is Guillo Marbeck, who is incredible.

Is he the one who plays Goddard? Yes, he plays Goddard. He's also so hot. Well, yeah. But, like, that performance is an... And I think that performance is the reason I had so much fun with that movie. You, for as much as I feel like I have your type pegged, there is a little port. I don't have a type.

That really goes for French-coded... Asshole. Asshole. Yes. See, that's the thing. Godar was a fucking asshole, an unlikable asshole. Franz Rigowski-Coded. And that performance is so charming.

So charming. Like, to an unreal level that it's just like, he shouldn't be that charming. It's like not in the realm of reality. And he really is. Watching New Valvog, a movie I sort of felt similarly to you, which is like, this is not like transcending for me. But I appreciate what's doing. And in general, I appreciate Link Letter sort of following his muse to various degrees. And the fact that he did this and Blue Moon in the same year makes me like New Velvog even more, even though Blue Moon is definitely the one that I would go.

for among the two of them. Yeah, because they're both about these, like, pain in the ass creatives, right? It makes me... Which, like, you want to imprint, like, Linklater doing, you know, memoir in some way, but by all told, like, Link Later is an amiable nice person. I think doing New Valvog in the style of the French New Wave is... is charming in its own way, but it really made me kind of wish. for somebody to do French New Wave in a non-French New Wave, you know, style, which was where I landed on, I wish Wes Anderson had made the movie about the making of breathless.

Like, I think that would be really interesting. See, I feel like it was less the style of the French New Wave films than it was the style of like Otts Miramax. Woody Allen's celebrity? Yeah. Kind of. Um, or like, you know, uh, not Richard Curtis, but like a Richard air comedy, you know, like. Sure. I get it. I get it. My fun campaign, uh, movie that fell short is die my love because like all that it ultimately came down to was it's a little silly that we're trying to, you know, get a, I mean, like, I mean, like,

Like, we didn't end up doing, we need to talk about Kevin this year. But we will at some point. We will, we certainly will at some point. Probably at a point where it makes sense to talk about it for Tilda, because I think the idea of a Lynn Ramsey movie being in Oscar conversations at this point is like, that's just not, those are two different worlds, you know. I think die my love certainly felt a lot closer to it than you are never really here, even though I think there was a lot more critical adoration for you were never, is it,

you were never really here, right? That's the full title of it. You were never really here. You were never really here. I think there was much more critical adoration for that movie, but I think Die My Love, I think moves Lynn Ramsey closer to the realm of a kind of thing I could see getting nominated for Oscars. Maybe. And part of that is like it's a different tone than she's done before with this dark comedy. But even then, like, Lynn Ramsey doing dark comedy, a lot of the audience doesn't get that she's doing.

doing a comedy. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Again, to what you were saying with Jennifer Lawrence being kind of firmly back in the cycle of these things. You say three years, I'm like, well, she might make this Scorsese movie, a Scorsese actually, you know, goes into production.

So it might be less than that. Right, right. But I think that is still spiritually true. Yeah. Jennifer Lawrence in a Scorsese movie feels so spiritual. is really correct. Like, it really, that's, does it not for you? Yes, but also like the press cycle of her, like, talking shit about her bestie Emma Stone and being like, she beat me to the second Oscar. And I'm like, well, Jennifer Lawrence,

you're going to get a second Oscar. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if she doesn't, it's just going to be good to see her nominated again, I feel like. All right. What's our next award? the how dare you title this this way joe i it doesn't bring me joy to say this but like the meg ryan honorary tribute award for is it ever going to happen for them uh oh we're honoring the people who have never had uh the oscar graces bestowed upon them yeah my choice for this uh is no other choice Chan Wook, who feels like is two step forward, one step back towards an Oscar nomination for his movies. I think the run of The Handmaiden, Two Decision to Leave, Now with No Other Choice, feels like it's just like getting that much closer to it. No other choice,

felt like the lowest priority in terms of Oscar for Neon, though that is not... I think they saw that as box office first and award second. It is very decidedly doing the best at the box office of all of the Neon International Future movies. And I think it's still going to, and that's probably the most populist-minded of all of those movies. I feel like that movie probably plays for the most type of viewers. Yeah. So they weren't wrong, but I do wonder what, if that was their first priority for both, what that would look like, you know, if they hadn't waited so long. Because it's like they were doing the rounds for sentimental value, secret agent, it was just an accident. and I would even argue ARCO before they really even started doing no other choice.

And no other choice was having its international rollout in other countries before America. So you could argue, you know, like Director Park might not have been available, et cetera. And again, like, no other choice is still winning because it's making a lot of money. Yeah. But, yeah, I think it would be a – I think – I think – I think – they could have had like a best director nomination and it never really felt like it was in the cards for this movie. And at this point, I do have to wonder for Director Park, when is that going to happen? Like, is it going to be this large groundswell for another movie? Because I also

don't see Director Park making another movie that could be as populist, could speak to the moment as well as no other choice does. It does speak to the moment, but it speaks to the moment in a sort of archly comedic way that I feel like... In a co-ncy way. Right, which does not lend itself as well to, especially when you're trying to sort of sell an international feature. I think it's easier to sell something like the secret agent on that level than it is to sell something like no other choice,

which sort of forces you to... I don't think you have to really know... They say that, you know, drama is, that action is the easiest genre to sell across languages and cultures because action sort of translates better. Comedy translates probably the least well because you sort of have to have a little bit of a basis in a culture's sort of, you know, cultures, mores and whatnot. But I think no other choice translates incredibly well to, a kind of universal sort of capitalist condition that's happening right now. I do feel like

in a different year where international feature didn't have quite so many contenders and the neon of it all, even aside, I think just the fact that it was sort of having to battle for attention in the best picture field with a lot of other international features. I think it maybe would have done better in a year where it's like the international contender. And there can be a little bit more of, you know, impetus to sort of focus on this one movie if you are a Oscar voter. I really liked this movie. I really like no other choice quite a bit. I think the performances in it are really good. I think if we had, you know, if we want to start talking about a thing that is, that we're not quite there yet with, unfortunately. And,

it's that not every international contender feels like it is given the same degree of consideration for its acting performances, obviously sentimental value. We're about huge Yom Hai Ran fans for this movie. She's incredible. She's fucking awesome. And I think it applies to something like it was just an accident as well, where... Miriam Afshari. For whatever reason, none of the actors in It Was Just an Accident were considered a And, like, obviously, something like sentimental value where it has name actors in it,

even, like, Wagner Mora in Secret Agent, is a name actor who is, like, a known quantity for people who, you know, watched Narcos, you know, all those years or whatever. So I understand that, like, it's not, it's not quite so insidious, but, like, you do wish that somebody like Mariam Ashari for, for, for, it was just an accident. Or somebody like Lieb Young Hun, who also is somebody who has been around for a very long time and who you could like craft a, I'm glad that he got a Golden Globe nomination. And I think that's weirdly, I know this is going to sound crazy, but like good for the Golden Globes

for helping push progress along a little bit with this nomination for Lieb Young Un. because what if it, that's also, for as much as I will bitch about the new Golden Globe voters who seem a lot more conservative than they used to be, this is one area in which they are not, is the old Golden Globe voters, as cuckoo bananas as they used

to be, still were very reticent to recognize actual international film, which always seemed strange because they were the Hollywood foreign press, but they loved the American movies way much more. And I think the new Golden Globe voters are a lot more, you know,

apt to vote for things like no other choice and actors like Li Biancang, which is good. These are good things going forward. Did you have anything else to say about no other choice? Go see it. It's in theaters now. It is in theaters. As far as I don't feel weird about, you know, saying Park Chanwick here for this category, but I do like the handmaiden.

And Decision to Leave much more than this movie. But this is so much more an accessible movie than those that I would think it would have been closer to. I think I did like this movie better than those movies. So interestingly enough. But yeah. Decision to Leave is so much more a me movie than a U movie. Oh. Because I'm like, ah, yes.

Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. I'm like, that movie is so romantic. Yes. God, yeah. I'll go briefly because my choice, my real choice for is it ever going to happen for them is part of a conversation I'm going to have for something coming up. So I gave a nod to to something that you mentioned a little bit ago, which is Glenn Close and Wake Up Dead Man.

I do feel like with every passing Glenn Close movie, now I'm just like, oh man, it's really, she's like really going to Deborah Carr her way through her career. I really do just think it is going to happen for her. You do think so. Like, I still think, I feel like it's still going to happen. I think I've, I think I've, I think I've resigned myself to the fact that it's not. I think she's going to be Peter O'Toole, Richard Burton, Deborah Carr, you know. Has she gotten an honorary?

Do you think she's been offered an honorary and she's turned to talk? This is how she does get a competitive Oscar. Give her the honorary Oscar and then she's going to win. her way into it. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Our next award is the, this is a carryover, I think, from previous years. The Hustlers Memorial Climin' My Fur Award for a movie that we think deserved better. And we want to welcome it into our warm embrace. This, my choice for this, I don't know if I would have anticipated, would have been my choice for this. But as I was looking at the list, and I was looking at, you know, all the different categories. I really think Nia da Costa's Hedda did not get the appreciation it deserved this Oscar season

for a lot of its aesthetic qualities. I think this is a great costume movie. I really enjoy the production design in this movie. I think the cinematography is really good. It's the way that that movie sort of lights its way. around this giant, you know, mansion where all this stuff is going on. Nina Haas, I think in this movie, should have been in the supporting actress conversation more than she was.

I think the fact that Heda just didn't really make a dent in either box office or even like cultural conversation. I think this movie just was too far on the outskirts of what people. people were talking about, unfortunately, because I think it's really well done. I think I would have really championed this for an adapted screenplay nomination. I think it is a very, I don't know the original Hadda Gobbler all that too terribly well, but I think to make the changes that were made fundamentally to that story for this adaptation is pretty bold. and I thought carried off really well.

I remember after the movie, when I went and looked up what was changed, I wasn't surprised because, like, it does feel like if this play would have been about two women, I would have probably heard about that by that point. So I assumed that that had been changed. But I think it fits so well in terms of the themes and the, you know, the story that's being told, the fact that it's, you know, these two women, Tessa Thompson and Tessa Thompson and Nina Haas, at the center of this movie, I just think it's a really incredibly well-done adaptation. And I just think I wish more people had seen it. I probably could have done a better job of talking about it. And I'll put that on, you know, my plate as well. But Amazon ultimately treated that movie more like a streaming movie than a theatrical movie. This is Amazon's problem

these days. They did a very limited release for one week before it was on their streaming platform. Which is not the case for something like after the hunt which they gave a robust theatrical release and people didn't show up and I mean you could maybe make the

argument that like how much box office would Hedda have made but also at the same time that's not the point in a conversation like this. I haven't seen the movie yet because by the time it got to the point of

seeing the movie, this is one of those movies, I'll admit that I'm like, well, we're probably going to do an episode on it because I didn't have much faith in it getting a nomination somewhere that I'm like, I'll see it when we do the episode, and that episode can have a more fresh perspective. I'll be really interested

to see what you think of it. This is the thing that happens to me in the season is that a lot of things, as they look more and more like they could be, an episode. I'd rather wait to do the episode so that my ideas are more. It's also instructive to me when I approach things

like TIF, right? This played at Tiff. This was a gala, I believe, at Tiff. No, it wasn't a gala, but it was... Special presentation. We had, I think, an event when the premiere was. I think, yes. But I also felt like in general, there wasn't a lot of

buzz for that movie, and I remember thinking, well, if this was going to be a real thing, there would be more of a hubbub about it. And that's, to me, maybe a little bit of backward thinking. And that's maybe abdicating a little bit of, you know, if I'm going to get the privilege of getting press access to TIF, I should make my own decisions a little bit more. You know what I mean? And part of that was I was not particularly enamored of Nia da Costa's Candyman movie. So that probably played into it as well. I need to get to the Bone Temple. I just have not had time. This is the thing. Now

Nia DeCosta is on a fucking heater between Heda and Bone Temple. Bone Temple, Bone Temple fucking rocks. So this is a good moment to be like, hey, if you liked Bone Temple, find your way to Amazon and check out Heda. That Hedda gets up to some stuff. Man, you want to. won't believe it. All right, what is your climb in my fur movie? A movie that we disagree on. I just saw it again, because a friend asked me to join. I'm eager to see it again, I will say.

I'm eager to give it another shot. This is the one that I saw the most fervent complaints about on Oscar morning. Oh, the... Mona Fastfolds, the testament of Anne Lee. The boys were very upset that Mother Anne... Where I'm like, where the hell are you... When this movie is being released and now you just want to get your likes on social media, I guess. People like to complain and get those likes.

It was the easiest route to getting a bunch of likes on that morning was to complain that the Oscars screwed over Amanda Seifred and the Testament of Amanda. And when I say deserved better, I don't just mean this is a movie that could have had 10 nominees. You know, it could have, you know, had those eight or nine nominations like most of these better. Picture nominees. It's not just because I think Amanda Seifred gave the performance of the year. It's not just because I think Daniel Bloomberg's score is like really out on a limb doing some very interesting things, though I'm still curious about eligibility stuff there, considering how much it relies on old Shaker hymns. And that would sort of explain why it wasn't on the short list, right? If it wasn't eligible? Maybe. Maybe. But you would think

someone would come out and say that. Yes. The reason that I also say deserved better is, and you know, every season is different and sometimes strategies just don't hit the way that you think that they would. I don't think Searchlight did much for this movie. I feel, it felt like a get that, like, Searchlight wanted to put this movie out, considering the thing about the Testament of Anne Lee is that I do think it is, that I do think it is, it is much more conventional than I think people would try to tell you that it is.

I think there is some, I think it takes some bold swings and has some pretty pointed, you know, Mona Fastball chooses very wisely when to do something very modern in a pretty typical biopic format, right? but I ultimately don't know if Searchlight was the home for this movie, especially because I don't think they handled this movie very well. This was not the season for your movie to go radio silent after the festivals and then not really emerge again until December. It just wasn't the season for that. Do you think a movie like The Testament of Anley?

I have a lot of sort of thoughts on what you just said because I don't know if I necessarily agree with all of it. I think this is a much more difficult movie to campaign and market just in general. It's like an ocean barge of a movie, but I think the story beats of it are somewhat of a conventional bio. Sure, but to get to those story beats, you get to, there's a lot of singing and spinning that happens. I listen to Mona Fastfold on the DGA podcast. I think it was. If you don't listen to the DGA podcast, great interview podcast, by the way. It's always directors interviewing directors at Q&As after they screen the movie.

I should listen to it more. Always a great listen. I think it was that one where I was listening to her and Mona Fastball's like, yeah, I have a background and dance and movement. And after this is in the world to come, I'm like, no shit. No shit. Yeah. I don't love this movie as much as I love the world to come. I've still never seen the world to come.

I never knew that you loved that movie. We should do that movie. I mean, that movie knocks me sideways. Wow. But like the big emotional, cathartic, like queer moment of that is like based in a moment of movement. So it's like, yes, Mona Fastfold,

you are interested in dance and movement. We know. Do you think, sorry, finish your thought. No, I think, you know, that's one of the bolder things about this movie. I don't think it's a huge ask to get people on board because it's almost like a, like if Baz Luhrman did a caravaggio or something, because it is, it's not exactly what the Shakers did. Boslerman is so poppy, though. This is not a poppy movie. It's not. It is very, like, book moldy in a way. But the...

You're really selling it. I know. This is why I'm not in marketing. This is why I've never been poll-quoted. You know, there is a certain extremity that I think puts it in a modern context that allows us to understand how shocking and extreme the shakers were perceived as, you know. Do you think this movie does better if it premieres somewhere like Cannes? No. I think this movie would have been ripped to shreds at Cannes.

Interesting. I think this movie does better with a campaign that doesn't take its foot off the gas. Searchlight was weird this year. Searchlight, I don't know what's going on over there. I sympathize more with Searchlight in terms of trying to sell this movie because I don't think it was an easy task. But I do feel like there were probably opportunities that were left. I think Amanda Seifred, much like Jennifer Lawrence, is another person who I think there was probably room for one Rose Byrne narrative and Rose Byrne got it. I think Amanda, we talked about this in the group chat all season.

It seems like Amanda and Rose were sort of in competition with each other. And at one point it just stopped being a competition because Rose just kept winning everything. And I think also the quiet conventionality of this movie doesn't help someone like Seifred in winning critics prizes. You know, like this movie's not the cool choice. This was another one where I almost picked this for campaign I really loved too because Seifred I thought was really, really good. Amanda Seifred in the comments. about Timothy Shalame and Kylie Jenner's foundation. It's so good.

She's so good. She's so funny. She's like, oh, I was wondering about that. And I genuinely don't think she was being shady. I think she was just like... No, she's being her authentic self. She's really, really, like, guileless in the way that I find really charming. They will never make me hate her.

I am... I don't think anybody's trying to make you hate her. I think everybody really loves her right now. I just need the world to know. No. I will always be on board with her. I'm eager to say. see this movie for a second time. I've talked about this on the podcast. I was in a rotten mood the day that I saw it. I still feel like I raise a quizzical eyebrow what some of the things people say about it. I do feel like if we had an award for most reductive, repeated sentiment on Thursday morning, I want to shoot this whole, the testament of Anne Lee only didn't do as well as the brutalist in the nominations because it's about a woman and not a man. But here's the fucking problem. Even though,

people are comparing it to the Brutalist and just because they're made by the same filmmaking team, that doesn't make these movies similar. That is like also one of the reasons this movie deserved better because like even all of the people who are complementarily comparing it to the Brutalist, it's so facile to me. This movie has nothing to do with the Brutalist whatsoever. Find another point of comparison. I found it to be... It drives me crazy. But I mean, you talk about people who, you know, what's going to get you a good like, you know, that's, that is the kind of sentiment that will get everybody on Blue Sky jumping into your, uh, into your likes. So I do think that there is a core of truth that like, this is a movie with a woman's name

in the title. This is a movie made by a woman about a woman. Those movies are already at a disadvantage because of ingrained misogyny. But none of that has anything to, you know, do with the Brutalist. Like, you know, there is a core of truth of that, but like, there was a lot going on. The Brutalist had an incredibly well-received debut at Venice, and everything sort of unfolded from that. And I think had the Testament of Anley enjoyed that same reception, you know, at a place like Venice, I think things probably would have done. Then at least you can maybe compare. You can't say that that's the only reason. I find that to be deeply reductive.

Anyway. Next award. The last showgirl award for a movie that did not deserve better. This is, by the way, just absolutely dragging the last showgirl out of mothballs to... Catching strays. Yeah. Bad movie. All right.

What's your choice for a movie that did not get an Oscar nomination and we're like good? I came out of that rental family premiere being like, I think I'm going to be one of the nicer people about this. And I ended up being one of the meanest people about that movie. Well, but what did that general good sentiment towards that movie ultimately end up giving it? I mean, it got it $10 million at the box office, which comparatively to, you know, other movies. I mean, rental family got nothing. and I'm saying it didn't deserve better than nothing. That movie resolves all of its conflict in the first 30 minutes.

It, I found Brendan Fraser to be wildly miscast and gesturing, I thought, ungenerously. Just a big smiling. cynically. Just a big smiling potato in that movie. We're on the record of the, of, you know, really rolling our eyes at the bullshit. He was saying, not at one. I know. I need to stop.

I need to stop making that the first thing that I talk about with Rental Family about the cherry blossom kiss. But man. I just think it's not a successful movie. I think it almost reads to me like a movie that was conceived as a series that was brought into life. But, God, can you imagine watching a movie? series of this? I think it would be better if it was a series, if it was episodic. I think the general, the central sort of flaw of this movie, I think, would have,

like, I would have butted my head against it every single episode. Right. Well, it just probably wouldn't have been for us. This is an agency that creates the problems that the movie then has to solve. You know what I mean? And, like, everything, everything that wasn't Fraser and it was like the co-workers at this company who are not phrasing. Yeah, that felt like a TV.

series. That felt like that got a laugh out of me. Those characters were interesting. Also, like, I know Brendan Fraser is older than we assume he is by looking at him. Shouldn't that guy have been like 60 years old, like visibly 60 years old? To be that girl's dad? I guess maybe. Kind of. I don't know. Something. He should have the quality of a 60 year old man. That should have been like Chris Cooper, you know, like not Brendan Fraser. I think with Rental Family was always that, like, I understand that there are movies in which the main character does something that is on its face either ill-advised or bad or, like, you know, even when done with good intentions, like, will obviously go wrong.

And I feel like that's sort of, that's just a movie. But I think this movie in particular, the degree to which the case, the case, characters in the movie do not seem to be aware or cognizant of, I guess that's two words that being the same thing, of the fact that like the entire premise of Brendan Fraser going to take this job to deceive this little girl. And then they're like, oh my God, we got to do something. We deceive this little girl. And it's just like, well, yeah. Yeah. To the point where, it feels like the resolution is so projected that it feels like there is

no conflict. But also on a character development level, the Fraser character gets everything he needs to get out of this from the first time he does it. Yeah. And it's, there's no movie. And the stuff with the old man feels very, very much designed. I feel like my arm's being twisted as I watch those scenes where they're just like, you know, appreciate life.

You know what I mean? just like, life is short, you better appreciate it. I'm like, yeah, I know. Yeah. So rental family, I know I've dogged on you. You didn't deserve better. Yeah. My choice for a movie that did not deserve better,

I am less, I feel less of an animus towards. I'm a little bit more sort of perplexed or nonplussed or something like that. I am not a Jim Jarmish completest, but I've liked enough Jim Jarmish movies. I like, obviously, Only Lever's Left Alive, and Patterson. I did not like father, mother, sister, brother, at all. And I'm so baffled by that Venice Film Festival win, that Golden Lion win. I just... I'm really not.

I feel like Golden Lions are... Career acknowledgements at this point less about the movie themselves. And I say that as someone who, like, fucking loves the room next door. I guess under that auspice then, that makes more sense. But, like,

I found this movie to be... I can't imagine that a movie in which Charlotte Rampling, Kate Blanchett, and Vicky Creeps, all are color-coordinated and say the word Uber? I say the phrase, I took an Uber.

So many things. times could be boring, but it is deadly boring. Also, with like Adam Driver and Tom Waits, who I also love. Like, it's so fucking uninteresting to me and slow. And like, I, even something, something can be like slow like this and I can still, I can't imagine going into a movie that is about familial relationships in this way, and about sibling relationships. You know how much of a sucker I am for sibling relationships, that I get nothing out of this is absolutely bizarre to me. That a movie about your parents are getting older and doesn't that freak you out, that thing should be like an arrow to my soul.

And I just could not connect to this movie at all. I mean, Jarmouche is not interested in being an arrow to your soul. No. You're going to be more interested in being remote about it. Well, I guess that's true. So maybe that's me being unfair to this. movie, but just like, it's okay for a movie to just not be for you. But I should still be able to like connect to it, even if it's not going to be in the way that like is going to like wreck me or

whatever. But like, I should still find hooks on to which I can latch myself, right? And I just could not do it. I just found it to be almost like confrontationally, like dull, confrontationally inert. I don't know. Speaking of confrontational, Jarmouche is not quiet about how, uh, Kahn was not going to put this a movie in competition, so he petulantly goes to Venice and they take the movie and he wins the Golden Lion. Well, that I think he is probably in the right to. I think Kahn should take a Jim Jarmish movie on Faith. Like for all the bullshit that they do with like the Dardons and stuff like that, just like just... I mean, if they're putting the Dead Don't Die an objectively

significantly worse... Well, Dead Don't Die is almost like... In competition. But like, this is just like very boring. Bad movie. Yeah. I disagree with you. on every point that you said about this movie. I know a lot of people really like this movie.

I also think like this is the type of movie. It is not going to be for everybody. I think the ceiling for this movie in terms of awards is getting that golden lion and then that is it. I loved this movie. I thought all of the... Who was your favorite performance in it? Oh, favorite... India Moore.

Yeah. I like India Moore too. That's another actor. That feels like the easy... Well, India Moore and Tom Waits. I would have thought you would have been rambling with a bullet, but okay. No. I can totally understand how that middle story particularly was disappointing to you.

But I think these like strained family dynamics, not emotionally, but like of the soul probably hit me from my experience. exactly how Jarmish wanted it. What body part does Jim Jarmish take aim at? Your elbow, your heel? Oh, my shoulder. I mean, I'm someone who it's just like, when I feel... Yeah, where do you carry tensions? The burdens of life, I feel literally someone pressing me down on my shoulders.

Yeah. And like, whatever, you know, in the past year, well, beginning of the year, my... My mother passed away. It was a whole process in the year before that. This movie kind of got me closer to where I live with that. Okay. Then I expect it to get you where you live with that whenever you, a long time from now, have to go through that process. Yeah.

That's fair. That's fair. No particularly, like, the animus against this movie, as I said. But then again, also. Mubi, like, just kind of nothinged it when it was released. Do we think that Mubi took a step backwards this year after being so successful last year with the substance, or do we just feel like they are still going to be well positioned to take their next run at an awards movie? There's been press about it, and I don't really want to get into it because I did that.

They spent way too much money for Die My Love. And Muby is also a global brand, not just an American brand. And like they were well more established globally before the substance than they were in the States, and now they are established. I will be very interested to see how Cannes goes down this year after Neon did the buying spree that paid off. And I'll be interested to see if any other studios feel like they want to compete with Neon or whether everybody just decides to sort of abdicate. Because what we saw a lot at this past KAN was a lot of Mooby and Neon kind of dividing up not only the movies, but also like a lot of movies would get like North American rights would go to Neon and international rights would go to a movie. And that's with both of them already taking movies that they had to the festival like History of Sound, like Alpha. Right, right, right.

And that'll be the case again this year because Neon has fjured. 24 has entertainment system is down. I'm excited for Fjord, I got to say. Yeah, I'll be very excited for Fjord. All right, we should move on because we're... Next category. Okay, next category. The National Treasure Award.

I struggled with naming this one specifically, but I wanted to do something heisty. The National Treasure Award for a movie about which we most want to break into Price Waterhouse and steal the vote totals. I mentioned this before a little bit with New Velvog. I wanted to see how close came to a cinematography nomination.

I put Jay Kelly for this one because I'd be curious to see whether this movie finished in like top 15s or whether it was just like completely off of the table. I would want to see how close in particular Clooney and Adam Sandler came. I bet Sandler was closer. Well, yes, probably. Sandler I almost did in the Is It Ever Going to Happen for them, even though I think my answer to that is I still feel very, very strongly that, yes, it will eventually happen for Sandler. And I also feel like I'm less surprised that it didn't happen for Jay Kelly, even though a lot of people I think felt like, well, if it's not going to happen for Jay Kelly, where he's playing a Hollywood agent and it's Clooney and it's Noah Baumbach and whatever, I feel like the Adam Sandler Oscar nomination is going to come for a movie.

that shines a big old fucking spotlight on him. You know what I mean? That it's not going to be like an Adam Sandler movie. He's not going to be nominated for like Happy Gilmore 3. You know what I mean? But it's going to be like a punch drunk love. You know what I mean? It's going to be something that really centers him in a way that Jay Kelly.

I mean, we've both talked about this. We both think that Jay Kelly is maybe a more interesting movie if it's more about the Sandler character. And I think maybe if that's the case, then I think that's where you'd get your Sandler nomination. I think one of the things that I found a little bit frustrating about Jay Kelly was the Sandler character was in this weird no man's land of being too prominent for a movie that wasn't about him, but not prominent enough to make the movie better. You know what I mean? The movie's better if he's the main character, but if it's not going to be him as the main character, there's too much about this side character.

There's too many plots about this side character when we need to. get a better handle on the Jake Kelly character, and ultimately I think that's where that movie falls short. But I was maybe a longer tale believer in this movie, even after I had seen it and was sort of nonplussed in my reaction to it. I thought, well, the Hollywood types are going to really, you know, go for this because it speaks so directly to them. And obviously, that wasn't the case, but I would be really curious to see where J. Kelly finished in like the, you know, the 11 to 20 range, which I do feel like it probably was in that 11 to 20. I would just be interested to see where on that list it fell. Does that make sense? Totally. What is your pick for this?

This is where I want to bring up, sorry, baby, because it had a very late surge, but like it felt like that was real. Well, you mentioned that you predicted Ava Victor in Best Actress, and I actually think they were pretty close to that. I would think that they were probably, like, eighth, at worst? At worst. At worst. At worst.

Actress was a very, especially in the late running, was very competitive, I think, for those, like, that fourth, at least fourth, but, like, definitely fifth slot. right? Yeah. I do think Syfred was sixth. I don't know if I would necessarily agree with that,

but I don't know who I would say it's definitely ahead of Cyphred. But I do feel like, I think Julia Roberts sort of shouting out that movie and the fact that Sorry Baby got those

Globe nominations in the voting window or like on the eve. Did the voting windows begin like the day after the globes or something like that? Was that how it went? I forget.

But it was... Voting window. Those are so weird this year. And short. I'm always amazed at how short the voting window is for Oscars now that it's all online. But I do think Sorry Baby was one of those movies that probably benefited from having more time for people to see it. I think if that was released in the spring rather than the summer, I think we would be looking at a different Oscar story for Sorry Baby. I think not, I mentioned Best Actress.

I think certainly original screenplay, I would guess, was six or seventh. I think best picture, it was probably 11 to 15. Sorry Baby was in competition at Sundance, right? Yes. Won the screenwriting award. It did. I go back to last year Sundance and the fact that I so did not care for atropio, which was the jury prize winner. I don't get it.

All respect to, I mean, like, there's people that, I mean, Channing Danams in that movie. Sure. There's people that I love involved with that movie. I love Olly Shoket too, but like, yeah. Do we feel like it would have made enough of a difference if Sorry Baby is like the grand prize winner coming out of Sundance rather than just like a movie that people liked a lot? I don't really know if Sundance prizes mean anything in the grand scheme. But I think you saw something like train dreams emerged from Sundance with really good buzz. And I feel like one of the things that I did this week was I went back and I looked at my predictions from April and was kind of feeling myself.

because I predicted five of the 10 best picture nominees in early April, which, like, I never do that well. Like, it's hard to do that. And one of the ones was Train Dreams. And somebody else was like, wow, I can't believe you got Train Dreams that early. And it's like, Train Dreams was maybe the easiest one because people had seen it. People had actually seen it. And I knew it was going to be at Netflix, even though I think at that point we were like, uh-oh. Well, Netflix was the thing that maybe gave me pause.

Yeah. bumps it out. Like, you know, I, the thing is the, the grand prize at Sundance, it's like, if it, because like that did well for Precious, you know what I mean? Like, that did well for a movie like Precious. But Precious was also a big deal at that festival. Yeah. Respectfully, Aetropia was not a big deal at last year's Sundance. Sorry, baby, was closer to Precious than it was to Aetroa in terms of getting the attention.

Totally, but that's what I mean. But if you, if you made, then like, so like, if you combined. that with the prize. Then maybe that would have meant something for that movie. Yeah. And I just, I remember thinking at the time, why are we not giving this prize to Sorry Baby? It's clearly the one that like, the people of the competition movies. It was like that and TwinLess that like did the best. I like Sorry Baby. I don't love it to the degree that. That's another movie I want to, I think I want to watch again. Because I did, I sort of feel the same way similar to you, but I feel like there's potential for me to see it a second time and really. really, you know, every time I see a clip of the John Carroll Lynch scene, I'm just like, oh, it's so nice. It's so good. Yeah, like, I think the things that Sorry Baby does well, it does very, very well. I think for me, Sorry Baby was always a little to Pat, a little too. I've said this on Mike before. It's like, and now that chapter is closed in all of it. I am. I definitely do not like the last.

scene of the movie. Given the choice between Sorry Baby or Blue Moon as the quote unquote final original screenplay nominee, I was glad to see it go to Blue Moon and was kind of surprised.

I don't think... When that screenplay nomination happened, I was like, oh, it's going to get a best picture nomination. Oh, wow, God. I'm glad I didn't think that because then I would have been disappointed that it didn't happen,

but I definitely did feel a lot better about Ethan Hawk as soon as I saw that. But were people predicting Blue Moon for screenplay? because I don't, I certainly wasn't. I didn't really see it. Yeah. I don't think.

I'm happy for it. I'm happy for that. I think it was also the case of people being confused if it was adapted from something. It does seem like something that would have been adapted from a stage play, right? Yeah, absolutely. What's so interesting is that's the same screenwriter as me and Orson Wells, a movie that I really did not like when we did our episode on it. Yeah. And I love Blue Moon so much.

So much. Blue Moon is going to probably be of all the 2025 movies, the movie that I just, like, throw on when I've had a cocktail and something. You know, 90 minutes, you know. Yep. All right. Next category, Chris, explain the name of this. I saw it. She Fell.

What is that from? I know it. Showgirls, baby. Yes, okay. All right. Yes, thank you. I was like, I know that quote. And then I was trying to come up with another showgirls reference for the category after this.

But the I saw it. She Fell Prize. For Oscar narrative, we fell for. I'm not trying to intentionally deny the listeners the things that they want. But if I'm being honest with myself, we're going to get there. We're going to have that conversation. But something that I think I fell for. And in hindsight, it seems like, of course, of course.

We should just be able to just say the thing. that we're seeing, that we're thinking, but because we buy into certain narratives of things being locked down, we don't. And my answer for this is wicked for good. Because I do think the tea leaves were there. I mean, a lot of us were not, I wasn't predicting it for best picture, but like this total shutout is surprising.

I think the biggest surprise is no costume nomination. Here's what I will say, though. and it's a thing I didn't think about until after the fact. But if you think, like, in terms of performances, I could see somebody looking at for good and being like, okay, Ariana is given more and more complex stuff to play in this movie. So, like, I could see somebody casting their vote for her then. Cynthia, yes, also, I think to a less successful degree.

I think with a lot of the craft categories, I think you could very fairly look at this and be like, this was all filmed at the same time. Is this not just, did we not, did we not just award the exact same thing last year? I hear the people. More so on a craft, you know what I mean? It's just like, it's the same costumes. But that's not true of Lord of the, nobody says that about Lord of the Rings.

But if you say that about Wicked, I'm sorry, you have to say it about the Lord of the Rings movies. Well, I could see that. That's what I think. But at the end of the day, I don't think that's not why Oscar. voters weren't voting. I think it was just fatigue. I think it was just like, I think fatigue said in. They didn't like it. Well, right. If they had liked it. All the signs were there that people didn't like Wicked for Good. Like, and we were, but I think you look into this idea of like, Wicked is still getting a bunch of nominations because it was always going to get those nominations.

And like, I think Wicked for Good is at least a good reminder for people like us who, you know, obsess over these things that just because if the reason that something is locked is, well, because it is. No, it's not. I don't think I ever saw Wicked as locked. I mean, maybe in some of the craft categories, yes, but like I don't think I ever saw Wicked. Even, I mean, I stuck with Ariana longer than, I think, I think most people were not taking her out of predictions until maybe that last week or two. Right. And that's because I think the Golden Globes was a big canary.

Oh, she's going to win. The Golden Globes was a big, I know, I said that. I said she was going to win. That's my worst call in a while. But it really did feel like at that moment that, like, the zeitgeist was there. And I think because that movie fell off so steeply in its second week at the box office, and then I really think if you watch the Golden Globes, Wicked just was not a thing. You know what I mean?

By the time of the Globes, Wicked is dead. Wicked is, like, not. It's not in a conversation. Nikki Glazer's not making any jokes about it. nobody's like cutting to Ariana. People moved on. People moved on. And I think people moved on.

Cynthia wasn't even there at the globes. Yeah. Yeah. People moved on because they didn't like it and they. But. Didn't want to keep talking about it. But you know. You look at something like Avatar Fire and Ash, which I think people in general liked a good bit more than Wicked for Good.

I think there was. But I think you look at Avatar costume nomination aside getting what, two nominations. That's fatigue. I just think at some point. I think fatigue sets out. Wake Up Dead Man not getting a screenplay nomination this time is franchise fatigue. Yes. People move on.

Which I think is interesting because most of the people I saw who liked Wake Up Dead Man in like letterbox logs and whatever were like going out of their way to shit on Glass Onion. Which I was just like, hey, wait a second. Like some of us like all of these things. I'm not the biggest Glass Onion fan. So it's like I get it. Where was this sense? I don't know. I just feel like all of a sudden there's a lot of.

I tampered my negativity on Glass Onion because you loved it. it so much. The more I think about Wake Up, my famously, I think I texted you in Katie after Wake Up Dead Man, and I'm like, I think it's my least favorite of the three, even though I really like it. And now, it's one of those movies that really grows in my estimation, the more I think about it, even though

I think part of that is you sort of just stop thinking about the things that maybe don't work as well. But I think the Josh O'Connor stuff works so well in that movie, that like it really overshadows everything else. You know, it's themes of grace. and forgiveness and caring for each other. Yep, yep. It's really emotional.

Unfortunately, become more and more timely. My- Even if it doesn't speak directly to those things. My Oscar narrative that I fell for is, I put Springsteen deliver me from nowhere, which was a movie that, again, even after I saw it, and my appreciation for it was very, sort of specific in that, like, I really love, you know, Springsteen. And I think on some level,

there's only so low I'm going to go for a movie that shows them recording born in the USA. You know what I mean? And I felt like that sentiment was probably going to carry performances like Jeremy Strong's and even Jeremy Allen White's. Even though Jeremy Allen White, I remember thinking fairly early on, I'm like, best actors looking tough for Jeremy Allen White, an actor who I think is very good, but I don't think any, I think this is a little bit unfair, but I think there's a general sense that people seem to seem to not like him, like not like him as an actor. In the movie?

No, I don't like him in the movie, in general. I think between the bear and all this stuff, and part of me is just sort of like wants to tell people to go watch Shameless because he's so good on that. And I genuinely think he's so good on the bear, but I think he's so good on the bear, but I think he is so much symptomatic of what people find irksome about the bear and it's sort of seriousness and it's sort of, you know,

dourness. I think he's a good actor, but I do think this movie confirmed to me he is not a movie star. I'm excited to do an episode on the Iron Claw cough because I want, I think he's quite good in that movie.

And I want to see... Everyone's good in that movie. I want to be able to sort of talk complimentary about him because I do feel like he really had a rough go of it. I think the fact that people stopped talking about Springsteen entirely fairly quickly is probably for the best. I think Jeremy Allen White getting a nomination for this movie would have probably ended up being a really bad press cycle. I think ultimately, you know, not press cycle, buzz cycle. great best actor nominees. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he would have ended up displacing somebody who people would have thought deserved it more. And so, but I definitely was like, I was definitely sold on the fact that like, I may not love this movie, but like, people will love this movie. But also, like, Bohemian Rhapsody did a lot for, like,

an actively terrible movie that plays in a lane that is easily considered for awards can still win a lot of, of Oscars. So like, and also, and like, this narrative is going to come back. These movies will return. So I don't think you were necessarily wrong to fall. And I think even beyond Bohemian Rhapsody, I think a complete unknown ended up being not only

well received, but I thought pretty good, like a pretty good movie. And so I think that even did even more because it was like, oh, maybe there's a way to do the rock star biopic in a way that doesn't suck. And because Deliver Me from Nowhere is taking this in such a limited, you know, scope, which is what I think was one of the things that people really liked about, a complete unknown, I thought, okay, well, maybe we figured out how to do these, you know, biopics in a way that aren't super annoying. And I think, for all its faults, I think at least, I think Springsteen does,

limit its scope successfully. I don't think there's any part in Springsteen where I feel like, oh, I wish we could be seeing more parts, you know, more parts of Springsteen's life. I just think... I don't think it's a bad movie. I just think it's like...

I thought it was pretty bad. Yeah, you definitely liked it a lot less than I did. I think generally there are... I think it's not a good movie, like in a way that I don't have hostilities towards, that I just think it does not work. It is not satisfying. It's not telling the story.

It thinks it's telling. But two hostilities I have. The messaging of all Springsteen has to do is sit down in a therapy chair one time and start sobbing without even saying a word. Man goes to therapy one time. It is, it's not just like not sending the message that it thinks it's sending. It's maybe actively harmful. Sure. But also, like, I love the Nebraska album.

That is a fucking masterpiece. Absolutely go and make a movie about the making of that album and why that album was made. But this movie is so hostile towards the Nebraska album. It hates the Nebraska album. It considers it, like, the way that it frames the album is, like, Springsteen fucking off and having a depressive episode. and the album having no worth. This is why I'm going to enjoy. That's the message that I think this movie sends.

And I'm like, then why the fuck are we making this movie? We're going to have a good time. First of all, wrong. Doing this episode. Second of all, why? Like, then why are you making this your story? Like, I don't get it. We're going to have a good time doing this episode.

Chris Rosen, if you're listening, we'll invite you on to talk about this movie. I love that Chris loves this movie. Well, and like, I'm less of a, Nebraska devotee than you are, whereas I'm the person being like, yeah, just like, fucking put out Nebraska so we can get to Born in the USA already. I think this movie thinks that Nebraska is, I think it thinks everything negative about Nebraska. I think that it's bad for Springsteen the person's bad for his career, that the music

isn't very good. I don't agree with this, but we'll argue this out in the movie, in the episode that we do about this eventually, because I think it'll be a good conversation. I think it at best has a... You're giving me... If not hostile, like, negative relationship towards the Nebraska. You're giving me a Star is Born. Why does that movie hate pop music so much?

Which I think is... I don't think a Star is born hates pop music. But this is what it sounds like to me. Anyway, this is what it sounds like. Should have been a nominate. nominated best song. But anyway, given all the bullshit that ended up in best original song, that K-pop demon hunters could have definitely gotten a second. If I haven't said enough crazy things this episode, I don't think that Golden is necessarily the slam dunk Oscar winner that everybody

thinks it is. Well, I mean, again, if everything's going to be either sinners or one battle after another, I could see sinners winning in that one. But like, Golden's so good. I don't know. I mean, but Golden is also like the pop-yest choice in the category, and there's a lot of recent history that says that, like, Oscar doesn't go for that. Yeah, but it also goes for the crossover hit in the way that, like, Let It Go was and Shallow was. And, like, Golden is that? Golden's going to win the Grammy. The Barbie song was. Yeah. But, like, they could have chosen the poppy or Barbie song, and they didn't.

They chose the more serious one that was granted a hit. Yeah, but they didn't nominate the popier. Barbie song. No, I'm saying in this context, what was I made for was a hit, but like the buoyant poppy one is, I just can. I understand that. I do, I don't know, this is why we end up going long on these episodes. Okay.

Listeners want us to go long on this episode. I know, but like, okay, anyway. Next category, because I couldn't come up with a showgirl's answer for this category. The snap out of it prize for. Oscar narrative we resisted. This is a hard category to come up with something for it. It's a category that inherently asks us to like pat ourselves on the back for being like, I didn't fall for this bullshit.

Chris was worried that I was going to where I was headed with this when he saw that I had picked this movie. A movie I have not seen yet. I'm sure I will eventually see it all 334 minutes of my undesirable friends part one last era in Moscow, which was just, Julia Locktsev's movie about journalists in Russia, which won a bunch of the critics prizes, I would say the grand majority of critics prizes for Best Documentary. I don't want to be like, I never thought, you know, I never fell for that bullshit.

It's not a matter of that. It's just that I always thought that this plays into the historical tendencies of the Academy documentary branch, which is they're just... Zicking where the conversation sags. Zicking where the conversation zags, but also just like a movie with no distribution

that is 334 minutes that announces itself as a part one. So like it necessarily makes you feel like, well, it's not even a complete project. Which then also lends itself to being like, isn't this like ultimately a TV show?

where, you know, it's, you know, in multiple parts. Which is the argument I made about OJ made in America. Right. That nobody seemed to want to be a lot. But OJ made in America was a giant populist hit. That had a ton of money behind its campaign, too. And obviously, distribution. So I was, I don't think I ever really thought seriously that my undesirable friends was going to get nominated in documentary.

And I was kind of surprised to see as many people predicting it as I did. So I guess that's where, I think ultimately I had a hard time sort of picking something for this one because in general, I do feel like I maybe fell for, quote unquote, like more of the other ones, kind of. Well, here's an interesting thing, too, that I think a lot of people, myself included, had confidence in my undesirable friends in regards to the lack of distribution thing, is that no other land. just won in Oscar with no distribution. But the thing about no other land is it was firmly at the center of film conversations. Yes. In its year, whereas my undesirable friends, you know, it was purely in kind of documentary. It was harder to see it, too.

I think no other land was, you were able to see it, you know? And I think the other thing is just in documentary itself was just kind of like diffuse this year. No one really knew what was going on there. I think in terms of falling for Oscar narratives, the other thing is I had made it my mission so much to be, to keep my mind open for as long as possible. And so I think that led to me being like, yeah, is this thing on could get a nomination? Like, why not? So it's harder for me then to now with a straight face being like, I knew that wasn't going to happen. Since you invoked it, I'll say it here.

Is this thing on maybe the most forgotten, weirdly? Because when everybody's like sending episodes that they're saying about this, I'm like, wow, no one is saying, is this thing on. Everybody forgot. A good movie. Is this thing on? A good movie. A movie currently in theaters. A movie that, like, I'm sitting there watching it.

Like, I should hate this, right? Like, this should not. Definitely thought you would hate it. Be for me. Yeah. And I, all told, liked the movie. But, like, truly, even, like, our listeners are forgetting that this movie exists.

I think part of that is that Laura Dern is no longer a gay totem the way she used to be, which I blame gay people for and not Laura Dern. I think this movie would have been a bigger thing with a different lead actor. Oh, for sure. I mean, if I have anything against it, I'm like, Will Arnett is just not compelling. But the amount of people who were pre-sold against this movie, because it was a movie about a divorced guy who goes into stand-up and that guy is played by Will Arnette. Like, so many people checked out of it from just that. It was too much for, I think, a lot of people to come back from.

Unfortunately, because I think, like I said, it's a good movie. Anyway, what is your pick for Oscar narrative you heroically resisted? Again, this is a hard category to pick for because it's like, I don't know an answer where it's like I can pat myself on the back. The one that I resisted, I think we all kind of resisted. And that's the life of Chuck. Yeah. I'm not going to be happy when I actually have to watch that movie for an episode. We're definitely going to do an episode on it, so you are going to have to watch it.

One TIF people's choice was intended to be put out the next year, not that season. They made that pretty clear early on when Neon bought it. I think very early on when it won that people's choice. I think there was a handful of people being like, does this mean that this is like an Oscar movie? And I think anybody who had seen it was like, well, no. Like, no, I don't think so. I really don't. I really think that TIF could be moving in that direction.

where they are not just trying to be in the Oscar race, but they're trying to be like a fan epicenter where you can have a movie for like someone with a huge fan base, like Mike Flanagan, who's maybe not like making Marvel movies. I think Hamnet set it back onto a more sort of traditional course this year. Well, I think they kind of want that because they want, because they want butts and seats and they want attention for a festival. I think they kind of want to have it both ways.

Well, and they're big enough festival that it's necessarily them getting in a, heading in a bad direction to do that. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying I think that's something that they're actively pursuant of. Life of Chuck looks like a movie. I will not like. It's sort of a big, bold, beautiful journey thing, too, of just like they just don't nominate. movies with this kind of tone for Best Picture, if they ever did. They definitely don't now.

You know what I mean? But yeah, I feel like a lot of us are very self-consciously whimsical. I did not hate this movie. I am much more of an easy sell for Flanagan than you are. Have you watched any of his TV series? Not for me. I've seen... I want to see Oculus,

because Oculus seems like I would like that. Oculus is pretty good, yeah. Dr. Sleep made me irate. Oh. Interesting. Rebecca Ferguson Pro, obviously. Oh, that's fascinating. Save a lot of this for the episode

that we will be doing in a year and a half. It made me irate for all the obvious reasons. Also, like... It's fascinating. I get that Stephen King is a cultural touchstone. He is a cultural touchstone for me. But it has gotten to the point of Stephen King fandom that I think it is bastardizing what is good about Stephen King at this point. And we need to let the well fill for a long time on Stephen King.

We just do. We just do. Like, I get, well, what are we feeling particularly oppressed by though? Because so much of what we get from Stephen King, I mean, I guess this is a bad year to say that because both The Long Walk and The Running Man were wide released. But I think most of the Stephen King stuff we get is

like... The Long Walk, a not good movie that I still have a lot of... I liked the Long Walk. Positive things to say about. I liked the Long Walk. The performances in that movie are great. That movie's the reason I have a crush on Cooper Austin now. David Johnson is like...

He's great. A great actor. Yeah. Yeah, we got to let the well fill on Stephen King for a long. time. Well, A long time. He's not getting any younger. I think that's one of the things that I appreciate about the life of Chuck is it feels very much like an adaptation of somebody who, it feels like a story that is written by somebody who is, you know, wonders what's going to happen to his, you know, do his little fictional worlds live on when he's no longer around? And I felt like that's a little, you know,

it's a kernel of thought worth exploring. But anyway, like I said. So much Stephen King stuff now is a copy of a copy of a copy, that it's just like none of it is fresh, none of it is all that exciting. And it just feels like, you know, people check into it because it's IP, you know, and I want better for Stephen King.

I think the life of Chuck as a Stephen King IP, I'm not sure. I'm not sure most people, knew that that was a Stephen King thing. But Flanagan has aligned himself to Stephen King, and he is a lot of the problem that I'm talking about here. Okay. Well, we'll talk about it when, again. Joe, we've reached the end of the graduate.

Well, we'll probably be here for another hour. No, no, we cannot be here for another hour. We can't. We've reached the main event. We can be here for an hour. Listeners want this episode long. I can't do three hours. I'm so tired.

Okay, then fine. We won't. We've reached the main event. I can't believe it's taken us this many years of doing the show of saying that the... I know. Movie that we'll do an episode first on should be called the valedictorian. The valedictorian of the class of episode. Yes, I know. Well, valedictorian is also like a bit of a misnomer, right? Because we're talking about a loser, not a winner.

But it's the best of the... Because the whole class is, you know... It signifies the one, right? The one... Plus, I think it's only in the last couple years that we have sort of exalted the first, the icebreaker movie, the first movie from a given year. Because if you're listening and you don't know what our bullshit is, our bullshit is that we sort of self-imposed this rule that because we want to have some distance to give these movies context, we don't talk about a movie that is within a year of its eligible Oscar ceremony. So in... Because who wants to listen to us talk about

is this thing on four months from now? Right. You gotta let the well fill. So, starting a year from the Oscar ceremony date, which I believe is March... March...

Something. Fifth? I don't know. I don't remember. It's in March. A year from this March is when the seal

will finally be broken. So, um, we are about to break our seal on the 2024 movie. So that'll be fun. Um, but the first movie that we will do from the class of 2025 in the year of our Lord 27 is the valedictorian. Is the valedictorian. What is your pick? Okay. I don't, what do I want to say? What you want to say is that when the sun shines, we should, shine together. Do you want to... No.

I'll just do it. I know what listeners want. I'm not trying to run against the grain. I am earnestly saying that I think it is not the one everybody wants. Though I was tempted to be like, it should be this thing on.

Is this thing on? Because everybody's already forgotten about it. My answer. answer. The listeners forget that they're throwing out their answer as if they forget that this show, this had Oscar buzz, is recorded from the state that Governor Ella McKay was born and raised in. Like, the answer is Ella McKay. The answer was always going to be Ella McKay for me. We live in the state we were born in, Chris. Like, at the beginning of the year, I was like, well, it's going to be L.A. Mokai is the number one for a class of 2025.

Like, we know. Like, we don't know. We should do Ella McKay as a call-in episode. I know we talk about this every once in a while, but, like, we really should do L.M.A.K. as an episode where people just call in and give us their takes. See, but, like, Ella McKay is just like, I feel like when we break the seal on a year, it needs to be one that feels. feels a little messy and chaotic and like we're really releasing B.L. Zabob in a way that, like, because for me, the Oscars are valuable.

We've cut our palms and dripped a little bit of blood onto the seal. And yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not really. We don't have stigmata. There's no blood, but we do have a concussion for the whole episode. Oh, my. See, this is why it has to be L.MaK. We'll have such a fun time talking about that movie. I feel like the Oscars are always valuable to me in terms of closing a chapter. So I feel like we, in doing our show for our listeners, we need to help close that chapter by like releasing old wounds, by throwing some chaos in there so we can really cleanse the palate and start a new year.

I don't really know what other movie this year could do that other than Ella McKay. Maybe we should just become an Ella McKay podcast, to be honest. Like, we should do... Each episode is one minute of... She's our Rita ORA. God. What's Elamakey up to? What's the disgraced former Governor Ella McKay up to?

Honestly, I'd be interested to see how she would be faring nowadays. No, I think all of these instincts are correct. I think it will be an incredibly fun episode to do. There will be no shortage of narratives. Certainly, we'll see where, you know, folks like Emma Mackey and Jack Loudon's careers are in 2027. I want to know what Greta sees in Emma Mackey so much that she's going to give her. I'm interested in this Narnia movie. I know so many people are sort of like pre- poo-pooing it, but like... Yeah, I trust Greta too much. I do. I do. I'm going to make the case for Wicked for Good, the movie that I think you were dancing around. See, I was trying not to say

it, and I wasn't trying to be like, well, no, we're going to force you to do it first. I was trying to jump into the conversation without... I understand. Spoiling your answer. No, it's... I think I'm just like I'm going for the default answer. I mostly agree with you on L.M.K., I think that's a really good option.

The case for doing Wicked for Good is in a way, I feel like we're already making people wait too long by not doing it like this week. Because I just feel like there's so much anticipation for this episode. Like, okay, two things I want to say. You said Ella McKay should be the call-in show. No, Wicked for Good should be the call-in show. Everybody who's ever been a guest on this podcast needs to call him and talk about. Everybody who's ever been a guest on this podcast asked if they could guest on that episode.

Like, I've had like a dozen former guests, or future guests, asked to be on the Wicked for Good episode. And it's like, we can't get them all. So let's make it a call-in show. Also, this is the sentimental thing. And like, even I who didn't cry watching For Good, like, I thought of this and it made me want to cry. And I was like, maybe that should be our last episode. Stop it. Don't talk about last episode.

It's not in the cards. Well, we always said four-year consideration would be the last episode. But like... But like, we're not planning on ending this podcast. I also think Wicked for Good is maybe too big to just be the seal breaker episode. Like, it needs to be an anniversary episode

or it needs to be something like... Or it needs to be something crazy. When does our five... If we do ever get to do a live show, we do Wicked for Good. When does 500 happen? In two years. The year of the 100th Oscar. Yeah, so there we go.

But anyway, we hear you. We are excited that you are excited for Wicked for Good. I am excited to talk about, if nothing else, the dulci bear of it all. The sex cardigan. The sex cardigan did not get nominated for best costumes. What? That's why we have a This Had Oscar Buzz superlatives. Well, this is true.

Coming in a few weeks. All right. I wrote down a list of movies that did not fit neatly into any of our other categories, but I did want to throw a mention or two. We talked about is this thing on. We talked a little bit about Christie. Christie, a movie I sort of went out on a limb for at Toronto and mentioned that I could see a world in which Sidney Sweeney was nominated for Best Actress.

That's not necessarily saying that I think she should have been this year. I do think it was a good performance. And I'm more than a little bit sad that the narrative of that the book on this movie is essentially what a fucking giant flop at the box office, because watching that movie, and I understand festival audiences, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But like, that's a crowd pleaser of a movie. For as much as dark shit as happens in that movie, that is like a triumph of, you know, triumph over adversity kind of a movie. And I'm sad that, like, those movies just flop now. You know what I mean? And for as much as I know

Sydney Sweeney is a lightning rod of a figure, and a lot of people were really happy that she failed or whatever. But like, I can't, I can't get on board with that. I wanted more for the movie. That movie flop because of that, though. No. That movie flopped because no one knew it existed. Yes. No one knew that was a movie. I didn't see a single TV ad. I have fucking cable. I watch more commercials than most people because I watch live sports. Like, I did not know about that movie. So, or from the, I mean, I knew about the movie because I had seen that movie. But I have. would not have known about it had I not known about it. Sidney Sweeney just had a movie make $100 million at the box office. That's not why that movie. Sydney Sweeney, Amanda Seifred, box office champions. We should be talking about this more. I haven't seen The House Made yet, but I do want to.

I think we talked about After the Hunt a lot this season, like in various episodes and whatever. I don't think we need to, like, belabor it. I do feel a- We'll do an episode on that, and I'll be excited to do that episode. That's a movie with at least two, I would say, very good performances in it that ultimately I am not surprised that movie didn't catch on. And I'm certainly not surprised that that movie got bad reviews because... That movie almost petulantly

doesn't do the things that you think that it's going to do by when you show up to that movie. So no surprise. I like it. Yeah. I think Julia's fantastic. I think Stoolbar is fantastic. I think Andrew Garfield is frankly fantastic, and we'll happily do that. The history of sound, I've said this before, this is an obnoxious thing to say, but I still have to finish watching that movie because my screen are timed out in the middle of me watching that movie. My screen are expired in the middle of you watching the movie. Good to know that that actually happens. Take your deadline seriously. Not a movie that's petulately not doing the thing that you think that it's going to be doing.

But I do think that this movie is operating towards something different than people want it to. And I think that that movie was somewhat unfairly received while at the same time, like, what it is actually about, I can understand people not being satisfied. But I think that that's a good movie. Every year there are a handful of movies in the Oscar, in the greater sort of Oscar conversation that kind of get dismissed out of hand and we stop talking about them. And then two or three people whose opinions I generally trust will make a case for that movie and make a case for that movie being sort of like, you know, unfairly disregarded. And that makes me want to go back and evaluate or reevaluate a movie. and this is definitely one of those movies. Weirdly, Materialists is also one of those movies,

even though I do not think I liked that movie. And I think... I don't... I think that movie's kind of a mess, though I understand... But it's interesting. It is not an uninteresting mess, I will say. Yes, yes. I understand where its biggest fans are coming from.

Does that movie have biggest fans, materialists? I've seen people give, like, full-bodied defenses Okay. I think that'll make it an interesting movie to talk about. Where did you come down on highest to lowest, both as an Oscar play and also just like as a movie? I kind of had nothing interesting to say about it. I think, I mean, it's an easy observation to make about a movie called highest to lowest, but I think there are like, there are highs and lows in that movie. I kind of wish that Aesep Rocky had gotten a little bit more traction because not only I think he's really good in that movie, but I think he's really good in that movie. but I think he had a really good year between that and if I had legs.

So I'm a little bit sad that this is why I sort of bemoan the narrowing, the ever-narrowing of the Oscar ballot is because a movie like highest to lowest just isn't going to be a contender in, you know, Best Picture or whatever, that like AASAP Rocky's chances of a nomination were basically like gone. And I would like to live in a world. where like that performance can be campaigned irrespective of the rest of the movie because I think he deserved some traction. The Mastermind, Kelly Records, The Mastermind, another movie, this is high on my list of movies. This is like Anne Lee and this movie

are the two movies I most want to rewatch because I did not connect to this movie the way that you and a lot of other people whose opinions I really trust connected to it. My number one movie of the year. I deeply wanted to. And so I definitely want to give this movie, which I didn't not like, but I just like, I never really hit that second level with it.

And I really would like to. I really waffled between it was just an accident and this being my number one of the year. I kind of consider both of them, you know, in lockstep with each other. I think I pulled the trigger on Mastermind because the, first viewing of that movie felt so euphoric and surprising to me, particularly on a visual level. I think those are both movies that from the first frame of the movie put the audience in a place of asking questions about what they're seeing and who they're watching and kind of denying you information. and then giving it to you at a very measured pace. So, like, I think they're doing similar things, despite being incredibly different movies.

And by the end of it, you have this really complex thing that just makes you ask questions up yourself, ask questions about the context of the story that you've seen and the, like, moral conundrums that it doesn't give you any easy answers to. And of course, the mastermind, it's Kelly Reichart. We love her here. Yeah. We definitely had a stronger case for the other movies of hers that we've discussed on this show to discuss it on this show than we would with the mastermind. But I can see us doing the mastermind eventually. Oh, it definitely had Oscar buzz. I will not have a hard time making that case.

I want to have a very, very brief Josh O'Connor conversation, though, because this is somebody who had four performances. this year that to some degree or another, even the people who really did not like the history of sound had good things to say, I think, about Josh O'Connor's performance. But Wake Up Dead Man, the Mastermind History of Sound rebuilding, all four movies that I think, to some degree or another, people really liked O'Connor in. I think in general, he's regarded as, like, at the top tier of this particular moment of handsome young you know handsome young actors

were having a real finally the handsome young guys are getting a moment to shine but like do you know I think of his generation of his you know group that he gets lumped with I think after this year

I think it's just kind of inarguable that he's the best one of them well and I think a lot of people would agree with you and yet Shalema is nominated and likely going to win maybe going to win. Allorty's nominated. I think you'd, who else would we put in that conversation? Harris Dickinson, George

Mackay, like, whatever. I agree with you that O'Connor. All the Beatles boys. Austin Butler, who got nominated for, yeah, who are the, yeah, Paul Meskell, who didn't get nominated this year, but like has been nominated before. Austin Butler, who got nominated before. Josh O'Connor, who all the cool people seem to think is the best of that group, does not get a nomination this year. And I would say probably didn't end up particularly close, even though I think he was worthy in at least a couple of these things. Do we think it's just a matter of circumstance that, like, there was, you know, competition

over what people decided was the best of these, that all of these movies were kind of challenged in their own way. And what do we, what kind of a timeline do we think Josh O'Connor is on to finally sort of get his first nomination? I think he and Harris Dickinson are both, to me, the ones where I'm like, all right, like, TikTok, this nominations, you know, they're going to get nominated soon. We'll see what happens with the Beatles, but any of those Beatles actors are not getting nominated until those movies happen because they will be a bit. You're so anti-Vetals movies. I'm so, I find this so fascinating. I am, but it's also like taking away some great actors for a long time. Paul Meskell is like, I'm not doing anything but

Beatles because I can't. Like, you're not going to see me for a while because I'm doing these movies and then like that's, that means I can't make anything else. And this is basically the same answer I have for Josh O'Connor. It's the most boring answer, but I think it's the most truthful, is that, like, he works so much that he's just, like, not available to campaign. But he's... I see him

campaigning all the time, though. He's, like, one of the all-stars of short-form video. But, like, he barely could show up to TIF for Wake Up Dead Man. The reason the mastermind played on the last day of the festival is because that was the only day that

they could get him to show up to a premiere because he was working. Yeah. The guy works so much. Okay, but, like, I understand that, like, not showing up for a premiere, but, like, I do feel like he is absolutely willing and able to do the, like, the modern-day press gauntlet, which is, you know, one-on-ones with other actors. And, like, how many times did I see, like, Josh O'Connor and Paul Meskel sort of, you know, doing, you know, fun little interactive stuff.

And just he feels very game for all of that. People all seem to really like him. And I think all of that eventually will end up paying off for him. Absolutely. And I'm just interested to see sort of. But he's going to have to turn down work probably to do that. Because like Jesse Buckley's not making a movie while she's, you know, clipclopping her way straight to an Oscar.

And also like Paul Meskell. Not nominated for Hamnet. Maybe a little too busy being a beetle. I'm going to get a swear jar. I'm going to get a Beatles swear jar for everything you blame on the Beatles movies. That is not necessarily a negative statement. I think I just made a neutral statement. Okay.

I don't think you can... I do you think Paul Meskell is probably the most primed of that cast to be Oscar nominated for those Beatles movies. Anyway. I don't think that he missed out on the Hamnet nomination because of the Beatles movies. I'm just going to say that. And we can move on to the next thing. Shout out to the list To the

Was it a nuclear policy What? Gary who like works in Oh If you want me to be your guest on the House of Dynamite episode I am a nuclear We didn't even write that down Shout out to you

Yeah A House of Dynamite I cannot imagine watching that movie again But I imagine we would do it Do you think we'll ever get a member of the House of Dynamite to win on drag race or do we feel like they're more of a, like, club act?

It's Electrodynamite. Shelita love dynamite. Shelita loved dynamite. Alexis Star Dynamite. You are looking fabulous. Alexia Dion Dynamite. How did we not make that joke before now?

It's so obvious to me. From the legendary house. From the legendary house of Dynamite, Rebecca Ferguson Dion. I wrote down Rebecca Ferguson extravaganza. I mean, why am I going to see mercy? Well, Rebecca Ferguson extravaganza. I will probably end up seeing mercy. From the legendary house of dynamite, Caitlin Dever-Dupree.

From the legendary house of dynamite, Tracy Letts extravaganza. From the legendary house of dynamite, Greta Lee Daniels. Now we're just mixing metaphors here. On becoming a guinea fowl, the movie that A24 sort of straddled the line with last year and doomed it to not being on anybody's lists anywhere. because, although I think Richard Brody put Susan Shardy's performance on his best actress ballad. Excellent call. Richard Brody.

Love him always. Okay. So I'm so glad that we're having some space to talk about becoming a giddy foul because, yes, the no man's land that this movie occupied, even though it is a 2025 release officially for the States. I don't like stacking the, I don't ever want to appear like I'm stacking the deck. in any way for the Gary's ballot. Over on the Patreon.

Oh, yes. For the superlatives, basically our best picture category. We name it after the Grulsh People's Choice Awards. Yes, we know that Grosch no longer sponsors the Tiff People's Choice Award. We don't care. We're always doing it for the lulls. Why should we care? Yeah.

I never want to do anything that feels like I'm influencing a vote or stacking the deck. But I do want to point out. Yes, you can still. vote on that ballot for the few remaining days. If you haven't submitted your ballot and you're a Patreon member, go do it. If you want to join the Patreon so that you can't submit a ballot, we would love to have you there. The amount of Gary's that I have seen vote for On Becoming a Guinea Fowl has really warmed my heart and made me feel like we've done our jobs in a certain sense. I just want to get people to see that movie because that movie...

It's playing on HBO Max right now. Is it really? Okay, good. Yes, go watch it on HBO. Highest recommendation. Do you feel like if on becoming a guinea fowl were less of a straddler and had been more just like decidedly a 2025 movie, do you think it could have competed with the neon hoard? I mean, not an international feature because it was. Had Zambia submitted it as an international feature? Or the UK.

The UK could have submitted it last year and they didn't. could it have competed with the likes of Secret Age and Sentimental Value? It was just an accident, Surat, like those movies. I mean, if you can get A24 to lift a finger to give a fuck about that movie, maybe. See, again, here I am being the brat, and I'll stay a brat about this movie. Whenever people are, like, A24 is, like, the unquestioned, like, saint of independent cinema. I'm like, they screw over a lot of movies, too. and they screwed over on becoming a guinea fowl.

I mean, I guess they put it in some theaters, but they put no oomph into that movie the way that it deserves, at least. But they must have acquired it for a reason, though, and do you feel like it was just... They produced it. They didn't acquire it. They produced it. Well, then they really should have given it more.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Ballad of a Small Player, did you ever end up seeing this movie? No. because basically immediately I was like, oh, we'll do an episode on that eventually and no one likes it, I'll wait. It's surprising to me

that a director like Edward Berger had such sustained success with All Quiet on the Western Front and then Conclave. It is fascinating to me that he's made three now movies that I've seen that are nothing like each other at all. And a varying quality.

Well, yeah, Ballot of a small player is not an enjoyable movie to watch, just even on like a visual level, I feel like it's very confrontational, obviously, and it's like, garish sort of like colors. Intentionally so. There's intention behind it. I read the book last summer, and as I was reading it, I was like, I don't want to watch this. Like, I don't think that this is going to be an interesting.

There are more enjoyable ways to spend a couple hours with Colin Farrell, and I don't just mean that as a, you know, leering kind of comment on him. but he's not bad in it. It's just like, it's not a fun movie. It's not an enjoyable movie. I don't think it's a particularly profound movie. It's just, I think it was rightly assessed and rightly kind of. We talk about movies that are maybe put away a little bit too early

and deserve a little bit more consideration. I don't think I would say that about this movie. I think it was rightly kind of rightly shown the door in awards season. and we're probably all better for it. Shone the door basically during the festivals. I feel like all of the conclave fans out there have no clue that that director had a movie this year. I think a lot of people had that movie on their TIF schedule, and then by the end of that festival they were like, well, I can see other things

because it's just not happening for this movie. And that's sometimes how it goes in those festivals. Let's throw out some other titles that we didn't mention. I think the sad thing is some of these are more niche and they don't have a ton of things to talk about with the exception of maybe Nuremberg. We didn't mention Nuremberg and that feels like in another world

there is a lot more to... Nuremberg made some money, I will say. Sony Classic's highest grocer since call me by your name? It's got to be because it made decent money this year. I will say even though I did not see a single person talk about it in like real life. I do, I am excited for that movie to be made available on VOD so I can tell my dad to watch it because I think my dad would really like that. I also think the Phoenician scheme is like if we ever do an episode on it, it's purely because it's West Anderson.

Like that truly, you know, there seems to be a sliding slope on West Anderson movies in terms of not just like the public conversation. I think a lot of people were, I think that movie didn't get a fair shot with people. Michael Sarah is incredible in that movie. Incredible. So funny. And everybody was so quick to call it like the worst Wes Anderson movie. And I don't agree. Not even close. But like Focus, I never received even a screener link for that movie.

No. And I did for Asteroid City. Yeah. And like the Phoenician scheme to me is as silly to not be in. like production design, costume design conversations as Asteroid City. I don't think it's nearly as good of a movie as Asteroid City is, but

I definitely think... But it's... If you look at that movie and it's bizarre that nobody talked about that movie after October. The eternal question with these Wes Anderson movies is the fact that Grand Budapest as the extreme outlier,

why do these movies not get craft nominations? You know, beyond everything else it's going on. Also, what's Mia Threpleton doing next? Because I was intrigued. Great performance. I was really intrigued.

What else did I want to mention? Oh, this movie, this is one of those movies that, like, did not spend a lot of time in the realm of Oscar buzz. But I think it's spent enough time that we can do an episode on Ron Howard's Eden. And I'm so excited to do so. because there's stuff that particularly Anna da Armas is doing in that movie that must be seen to be believed. So excited for that. I think the Oscar buzz basically died directly on the vine for something like a private life, so much so that I can't really foresee us really doing an episode on it

unless like Jody Foster does another movie in France again. but I really do need gay people to go see a private life and talk about how wild that movie. Like that movie is just like casually crazy. It is. It's like Jody Foster doing an Isabel Huper movie kind of, right? We're like... It's like if Serenity was set in the nation of France. Okay.

In the real world, not in the video game world. and it's charred. Like, it's that type of like, and we're doing what now? Like, it is, it's a kooky movie. It's kooky. It deals with, like, past lives. It deals, not the movie past lives. Right.

Like, the concept of having a past life. Right. It's a goofy movie. What do you make of the fact that Peter Hojar's Day was, I would say, the most well-received Ira Sachs movie, maybe ever. I think I've seen more people sort of sing the praises of Peter Hoogar's Day. Do we feel like this is good for the sort of overall Ira Sachs trajectory to eventually maybe get something as an Oscar nominee in the future? God, I hope so. I think he's not really interested in that

at all. No, but I think that helps. I think not being particularly interested in that at all kind might you know help in terms of just doing his own thing and making a good movie that like let the Oscar voters come to him well and something like Peter Hojah's day is probably not ever going to get no certainly not him but the critics were on board in a way that like I was not really

it's not that I didn't think it deserved it but I was just like I thought that movie would just be kind of quietly you know would quietly exist and there was a lot more loud enthusiasm for that movie and a lot of corners that I was happily surprised by. Yeah. I mean, I love that movie. I would love to talk about that movie.

I'm glad that the Spirit Awards, who have never left Iris Axe's side, really showed up for that movie this year. There's a bunch of other, like, smaller things that never really became what they promised to be, like Eleanor the Great. Caught Stealing, the Roses. I'm glad a little prayer got released this year.

It got that Jane Levy Spirit Award nomination. Sony Classics had moved on to other things. There might have been some type of legal situation because music box is the one that eventually released it this year. Oh, okay. That's interesting. I was happy when National Society recognized Kathleen Chalfant for familiar touch, a movie that is small. enough that I don't know if we would ever

do an episode on, but like I hope people seek that out. You are one of the nation's biggest Eddington fans. I don't think, like as soon as I saw that, I was like, well, no, that's not, they're not going to go for that. But like, I do think

it's interesting to talk about it. I think Eddington goes on the short list of movies to watch to understand movies in 2025. I think it's, I think it is an incredibly vital movie. I think if I were making like a mixtape of like 25

movies from 2025 to watch, that is 1 million percent on it, whether people, you know, like it or not. I think, um, I just think so highly of that movie. Um, very excited to put that on my top 10 list eventually. Um,

uh, did you ever see Urchin? I didn't. I didn't. I think I was out of town when it opened here. I'd be curious to see what your thoughts are on Urchin. I feel like I am more predisposed to liking Frank Delane, but I think he's really kind of tremendous in that movie. And Harris Dickinson's more ambitious with that movie than I would have expected. And it's also

a reason why I want to watch Chronology of Water, because the little bits that I see of it sort of also seem like Kristen Stewart's being decently ambitious with that movie, which I think is a good thing. One of the more tedious movie-going experiences, I would maybe say of my life, anemone. Didn't see it? Had a hold. That movie flat out, just like to

I, like, that's maybe the rare case of a movie that if you were like, let's do an episode on anemone, I might be like, I don't think I can sit through that again. Here's a big one that we haven't mentioned at all, that I do think we should

maybe give like a few minutes of space. the spider woman Oh my God Kiss of the Spider Woman Kiss of the Spider Woman Can't believe we didn't bring it up yet We are slacking on our duties

There's always a movie That we're slacking on our duties Trust and Believe We're gonna do an episode of us Getting mentioned on the superlatives So if you feel If you feel some kind of way That we didn't talk about

The Spider Woman Enough on this The superlatives are coming Talk about highs and lows I like a couple of those performances Very very very much I think I've never felt... Tonotia is fantastic.

Toto Tia is fantastic, and I think Diego Luna is also quite, quite good. Also fantastic. I've never felt, never is a strong word, but I'm just going to be hyperbolic, which is my right as a gay person. I've never felt quite so let down by a movie's aesthetic as I was by this. That's not a good-looking movie, and it is a movie that I think thinks it's a good-looking movie, which is, I think, part of the problem. I think it's kind of the poster child. I love Bill Condon, but like I can't, I can't abide this. I really can't.

I'm happy that this movie exists, but I think this movie is the new poster child for when we talk about a movie that looks, that is digital photography that looks fucking ugly. Yes. And it is like overlit and underlit at the same time. And when people say like it looks like a Netflix movie as a pejorative, Kiss of the Spider Woman is the... And it shouldn't because, like, there's, like, beautiful set design in that movie, and it's shot so poorly. It's, it's, like, the rare musical these days that allows us to see the dancing and doesn't, like, cut away from the dancing. And, like, the choreography is so good in a movie.

And it's, like... And it just all looks so ugly. Yeah. It's too bad. It's really too bad. I don't know if they necessarily belong in this conversation, but you put them on the list, so I'll just say, Twinless and Lurker, my gay creep movies of the year. They're just so good. They're just so fucking, like, twisty in a way that I find very satisfying.

I know you don't like Twinless. I don't like Twinless, but I've said my piece about Twinness. Yes. Yeah, I feel like we got everything in, right? One movie that I meant to catch up to because, like, you want to talk about a movie that was dumped, but like, in like us as the people who are looking ahead and having, like, looking at where Buzz could be, neon fully dumped the actor. Well, I heard that was terrible. I also heard that it was terrible. And I didn't want that for Andre Holland.

Yeah. That fully getting buried. Yeah. That I was like, I want to just know. I want to know for myself. Yeah. So I think I will eventually see that. And that's the type of thing that, like, this is a movie that, like, when we say things don't exist, this really doesn't exist.

Well, it just got buried. Neon-made damn sure it didn't. But, like, years ahead, we, years because it filmed years ago. Yeah. Like, last year, it was the type of movie that we're like, where is this on the festival season? We thought this could be an Oscar player. Yep, yep. I still want, I still hope for Andre Holland to eventually.

get that Oscar breakthrough role because they think he's talented enough. On the sort of opposite tip, still have not seen David Cronenberg's The Shroud. Seeing that movie show up on David Erlick's top 25 made me more give me a little bit more impetus to get on that. On my top 10 as well. Yeah. So it's like people with, you know, people with taste, putting it on their lists is always going to get me interested.

Everyone Everyone else who I've seen Put that on their list I'm like Oh did you also have someone die this year? Oh really? Is that? Oh, that's interesting.

If you want to feel Really, really Bad about where we are technologically as a species And you feel at all any tie between that and where you might be in a grief process.

Well, you know, watch the shrouds. It might connect with you. I've never felt more like I'm living inside a, an archly satirical movie than when I saw that commercial for the first time for that thing that allows you to make a digital recording of like your grandma so that she can like be in family photos forever or whatever. And when that thing went viral, I literally posted it with the shrouds. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 2020. Yeah. Oh, God.

I mean, like, it, I do think that this is going to be a somewhat important movie just in terms of, like, where we're at digitally. Yeah. Aside from any of the grief stuff, and that's obviously a movie that's very influenced by Kronenberg's own experience with his wife passing. I think that's an incredible movie. I fully understand why people were chilly to it. Sure. Sure. But I think it's great.

All right. I'm good with wrapping it up here, if you are. Yeah. Listener, go. We got another event like this coming on the Patreon, so be sure to check that out. That is our episode. If you want more This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz.com. You can also follow us on Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz.

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