This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 020 / Having Difficult Conversations With Lynne Franklin

Episode Date: June 17, 2020

In full transparency, I struggled to release this episode, as it was recorded prior to the death of George Floyd. I don’t want this to feel like “business as usual.” But with these recent tragedies I thought this could be a helpful and timely tool as we must all be willing to have difficult conversations, myself included. In this episode, I welcome guest Lynne Franklin - Author, Coach and Expert on Persuasive Communication. Lynne shares with us the biggest mistakes we make when having difficult conversations and her 6 step process to communicating more effectively. It is imperative that we put aside biases, curb our assumptions and be open and willing to shift our perspectives. Oftentimes in communicating, we tend to think about what we want to say or the message we want to get across, and rarely do we put ourselves in the other person's shoes. We can all benefit from strategy and tactics in how to have these conversations, and although this podcast was recorded several weeks ago, I can’t think of a more appropriate topic to help guide us through some conversations that are long overdue. I stand with the Black community at this time, most especially the mothers, daughters, sisters, friends, and lovers. This is Woman’s Work… because when women rise, everyone rises. To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

I am Nicole Kalil, and you're listening to the This is Woman's Work podcast. Today's topic, difficult conversations. Have you started sweating yet just thinking about it? We all have to have difficult conversations, whether it be at work, at home, with family, friends, coworkers, bosses, people who report to us. And I know none of us or very few of us get excited about doing them. We've all had those moments at work or at home where we've needed to have challenging conversations with somebody. Maybe it's a supervisor who's taking credit for your ideas or a direct report who isn't living up to his potential,

or a teenager, or in my case, kindergartner, who gives you the stink eye every time you ask her to do something. I think we can all benefit from some new ideas and tactics around having difficult conversations, which is why I've invited Lynn Franklin, a self-proclaimed neuroscience nerd, author, and expert on persuasive communication to join us today. She coaches leaders and trains teams on how to break down communication silos in their organizations. I asked Lynn about the toughest conversation she ever had to have on the job, and she mentioned that there was actually a boy who threatened to kill her. True story. She obviously survived, which is one of the reasons why she started learning all that she could about reaching unreachable people. And she wrote a book called Getting Others to Do What

You Want. Lynn has also given a TEDx talk on how to be a mind reader, which has gone viral with nearly 3.4 million views. I am so excited about our conversation today. Lynn, thank you so much for joining us. And I want to start by asking, what is the biggest mistake or based on what you've observed and learned and experienced yourself, what are some of the biggest mistakes we make when having a difficult conversation? The biggest mistake that most of us make is we try to wing it. We think, oh, you know, I've spoken with this person before, or I know how to have difficult conversations.

And we just launch in. And maybe we've thought about the first five minutes of it. And so if they ask this, or I'll say this, and maybe they'll ask this, and blah, blah, blah. And what usually happens is that somewhere, things just take a left turn. And the conversation heads off in a direction we did not anticipate. And we are treading water fast, trying to keep our heads above water, because we're not quite sure what to do next. So I'd say winging it is probably the biggest mistake that most people make. And the second one is just to have their own talking points. And these are the things I wish,

these are the messages I wish to deliver to this person. And I just want them to listen to what I have to say, and then do it. Yeah, which is I think probably the third problem is that we're so interested in telling people what to do. And of course, they're reacting to us telling them what to do. We should instead be focusing on getting them to do the things that are right popped into my head as you were saying that. Number one, I have had conversations with people, role-played conversations before they have them, and it's universal. We tend to think about what we want to say or the message we want to get across, but very rarely put ourselves in the other person's shoes and think about what they might feel or think hearing those things or how they might respond based on what we know about them, you know, kind of playing it out a little bit further in our minds. And I can speak from personal experience of, you know, being a tell monster. That's what

I called myself. You know, I really loved telling people what to do and really making that shift to evoking or collaboration or something better than just telling people. So I know you created a process for having tough talks. Can you walk us through that? And thank you. Because here's what I believe. The reason we have to have these conversations in the first place is that there is a gap. There's a gap between what we expect and what the other person expects, which means that if we want to make a difficult conversation into something that turns into an opportunity, we need to be able to bridge that gap. And I call that becoming a doctor of persuasion or a GAP MD, which is the acronym for the process. It just makes it easier to remember. So I'll share each of the steps and just chime in with any ideas that you have to supplement this stuff because you have been

through difficult conversations and I appreciate your perspective, Nicole. Awesome. So the first A in a GAPMD is audience. We need to think about the person we're going to be talking with. And it's basically just asking ourselves some simple questions and writing down the answers. And because I'm a neuroscience nerd, here's what I know about writing things down. When we couple physical activity with learning, we retain the information for longer. So we don't have to try to come up with stuff if we write it down in longhand. And that's the other thing about why longhand works better than typing is that your left brain is focused on the words that you're writing. So it's activated that way.

Your right brain gets stimulated physically by the movement of your hand across a sheet of paper. It doesn't get stimulated enough when we're sitting there typing. So doing it old school sometimes is the best way. You know, that's really interesting. I'm a big advocate for writing. Like I have my notebooks everywhere and I firmly believe I retain more information or I feel more confident in it when I write it out. And I didn't, I thought that was just a me thing. I didn't realize there was like brain science behind that. There you go. You're smarter than you knew. You already know first people. Okay. All right. So that's the A of AGAPMD. What's next? Well, and actually, so let me, just to be helpful to people, here are some of the questions that

you should be asking yourself to make sure that you have a clear picture of the person who can feel like an antagonist or somebody on the other side of the table from you. So first, and we'll just say her, what's her relationship with you? So obviously, you're going to deal with people differently if they're a direct report, a family member, a client, or a colleague. Two, what does she want? Three, you know, what is she afraid of? And four, what's the problem that she needs to solve? So there are these things about her that if I spend a few minutes just writing down the answer to them, I have a much clearer picture about her. And then I need to ask myself some questions about me. Basically sorting through the judgments I have about her. So what kinds of interactions have I had on this subject or other subjects with her in the past?

Have we butted heads before? What have I learned from that stuff? How have we both dealt or not dealt with each other in the past? Maybe I see her as a whiner or she's long-winded, which just makes me impatient. So I know I need to be watching that in myself. Or maybe I've been abrupt with her. And that's because I want to get things done. And I don't want to take time to spend with her.

So I need to take a look at how the two of us have interacted and the judgments I have about her and about me and any hot buttons I have that she pushes or that I push for her. That's good stuff. Yeah, that's really helpful. Some really good questions in there. And I think bringing to mind any perceptions or beliefs you have about that person or your interactions with the person, I think that's really good to, you know, be mindful of it. So you go and prepare. Yeah, you know, and at the end of that process, I know I just close my eyes and I take a deep breath, you know, kind of like a full body breath. And I decide to set aside my annoyances and do that rather than just reacting to what goes on in the moment. Okay. So A is audience. And G is goal. So most of us don't think about what we want to have happen after the conversation

is over, unless it's, oh, I just want to get her off my back, or I just want to get this stuff done. And the idea is that we need to choose something specific, measurable, attainable, relevant and timely. So to sit down and figure out those things, and it could be, and let's just call her Mary. It could be that I would set a goal like in a 30 minute conversation with Mary. I want to explore options on how to improve quality in her department and pick the one that makes the most sense and have both of us decide what our next steps will be. And if I pick a goal like that, then it's pretty darn clear whether or not I've gotten there. And the beauty of this too,

because we're going back to neuroscience, is that when I set a goal like that and write it down, I'm moving it from my conscious mind into my subconscious mind. And here's why anybody would care. Our conscious minds can process somewhere between 10 and 50 bits of information per second. Our subconscious minds handle upwards of 14 million bits of information per second. So for example, right now, your subconscious mind knows how your derriere feels in your chair. And so now you're thinking about how your butt feels in the seat. Right. And five seconds ago, you weren't. Your subconscious mind was collecting that information,

but your conscious mind hadn't told it it was important. But when it found out it was important, it let it bubble up. So the same thing is true here. When I set down a goal, I send it down to my subconscious mind, which starts chewing on it and trying to come up with different tactics and strategies and words that will help me get what I want, because my subconscious mind literally does want me to get what I want, which makes the whole goal setting process really powerful. I mean, they've done studies, people who would set New Year's Eve goals, beginning of 2020, for example, and then put

them a drawer and didn't look at them for the rest of the year and then come back at the end of the year and are amazed by the number of things they've actually accomplished without having paid attention. I say that's the power of your subconscious mind. Tell it what you want, and it will do what it can to help you get there. I believe so strongly in that. I've had two experiences in my life. I used to journal a ton. And at one point I wrote down everything I wanted in a partner. And another time I wrote down everything I wanted in an ideal home. And then I closed those journals and put them away somewhere. And I hadn't looked at them in years, that specific journal. And when I had moved a few years ago, I found it as I was going through deciding what to

bring and what to get rid of and all that fun stuff. And I was reading through it. And I cannot begin to tell you how crazy it is that I checked almost all of the boxes and it wasn't conscious. It was subconscious, right? But I'd consciously put it down, but I just feel like somewhere my subconscious must have been put to work to conspire to create exactly what I said I wanted. It was insane. It was watching out for it. Once you told it this was important, it started paying attention. So that's the positive use of the subconscious. Of course, there is the negative use because the subconscious can't tell the difference between a positive message and a

negative message. So if you're sitting there thinking, Mary's never going to agree to do this, your subconscious mind hears, she's never going to agree to do this and then finds ways for you to shoot yourself in the foot every time. So it's really important for positive self-talk before you have conversations like this. I love that. Okay. One final note is that one of the goals I always set for myself is to choose to be my best self in this conversation. You know, be the person I wish, you know, if I were married, I wish I were speaking with. And, you know, and that kind of ups my game too. All right.

So the next A is? Ask. So ask good questions. And I say, write them down in advance. Because when I'm in the middle of that conversation, it is really stressful. And I'm not going to think of everything I need to know. And then, because how many times have you had conversations and then they've ended and you've walked away and you thought, oh, shoot, I should have asked this. So write those questions down before you have the conversation. And the other thing is that

coming into a conversation with questions shows that you're interested and that you really want to help make things better. And it also lets the other person know that you know you don't know everything and that she, in this case, Mary has more important information and useful information that you need to know too. So that's the ask question part. Then of course, there is the listening part. And I know you're a big proponent of active listening. I try to be. We all do. And just to make it simple, there are basically two ways to listen. The first one is the most common and it is listening to respond. So this is when basically we're looking at the other person and we're telling them what they've asked for.

And we can see their brain has already left the building. They're already thinking about what it is that they want to say when we finally shut up. So maybe it's to one-up us or to share a story that they have on the same or to share a story that they have on the same subject. But the scoop is it's only like half listening because they're paying more attention to what they're going to say next. The better kind of listening is listening for understanding and empathy, which is where the whole active listening part comes in. We listen because we really care and want to know what's going on. And here are just a few quick tips on how to do that. Just a refresher for most of us.

First, to listen without interruption and frankly, without letting your mind wander off when the other person is speaking. And second, to ask questions related to what she's saying, which helps us draw out new ideas and clarify what we've heard. And then use body language that mirrors hers, as in mirror, mirror on the wall. And what happens there is that we literally have in our brains something called mirror neurons, which are looking at the body language of all the people around us and cuing us to have body language that's similar to them. Because back in the old, old days when we were in the jungle, we didn't want to look too different from the rest of the people in the tribe. Otherwise,

they'd kick us out. So let your body language be similar to Mary's body language because that invites her to continue the conversation too. Fourth, avoid giving advice. My favorite line about that is, take my advice. I'm not using it. And then silence my judgments about what I'm hearing. Because there are so many times that we're so busy looking, listening to our own self-talk that we miss what people have to say. Yeah. And we just need to be there and be interested because that lowers the level of resistance and sometimes antagonism if somebody feels really seen and heard. Yeah. All such great things there. I've been taught to even use, and this might be coming in your next step, but not just mirroring

the body language, but actually using verbatim words that the other or phrases that the other person said. That's a really great way of having people feel heard if you just repeat back what they said to you as opposed to adjusting it or putting your spin on it, right? Okay. So I know the next one is paraphrase, and I might have already alluded to that. But now that we've asked really good questions, how do you then go into the paraphrasing part? And you're absolutely right. Whenever we hear somebody say something, and it's funny because the big objection I often hear about paraphrasing is, oh, well, they just said it. And if I say the same thing, they'll be bored. Well, no, we are never bored with our own words. And when somebody says exactly what I've just said,

it shows me that they're listening and that they are paying attention, which is the purpose of paraphrasing. Because there are times I know when I have said something and somebody paraphrases it back to me and I say, you know, that's not really what I meant. And it gives me an opportunity to clarify things, which makes the conversation much more effective. And you're right, there are other times when people think they're paraphrasing, but as you said, they change the words. and then I don't feel as seen and heard and neither do other people. It truly is magic to use the exact same words the other person uses and not interpret the information because otherwise judgments can creep in there.

And the idea is to build a closer relationship and show people that we've actually seen, seen them and heard what they have to say. I love that. Any other specific tips on paraphrasing? No, I think, I think you covered it well to kick us off. So thank you for that. All right. So then we're onto the MD. What does the M stand for? The M stands for make suggestions. And in this instance, ask the other person to make suggestions first. Number one, that short circuits any people who just want to come into your office and

complain. Because if they know you're going to say, okay, I understand what you're saying about this problem. What do you think we're going to do about it? They know you're expecting them to come in with some ideas, which means that if all they want to do is complain, they we're going to do about it? They know you're expecting them to come in with some ideas, which means that if all they want to do is complain, they're not going to complain at your door. And second, when you ask them to make suggestions first, it shows them that you think they're smart enough to have some suggestions on this, that they have something to say. And then obviously, after they've made their suggestions first, if you have some, share them. But the idea here is that people are always more interested in following through on a

suggestion or a solution that they've had a part in creating. So turn to them first. I love that. Okay, D. D is decide next steps. And I know it sounds silly, but a lot of what happens is that after we've raised all of these suggestions and we've kind of talked about, well, this one seems to make more sense than the other. If there has been some negative energy or some tension or some anxiety, it's gone now. We can see that there is a path forward. And a lot of times conversations end right here because we're all feeling relief. But then, of course, if we don't decide what we're going to do next, we're going to end up having that same darn conversation a little while down the pike. So the idea is now that we know these things,

let's use the call to action to figure out what we're doing next. And basically we get to decide what Mary's going to do and what I'm going to do and by when we're going to do these things and hold ourselves accountable in making that happen. So if I've promised Mary I'm going to do something by next Wednesday, then I need to make sure I do. And I also need to know if Mary might need some support in doing what she's promised to do by next Wednesday and check in with her. Not in a have you done this yet kind of way,

but is there anything I can do to support you? Because I know that you're paying attention to this and I know you want to get it done. So it becomes, how can I make sure that she knows I'm serious about this and I'm going to do what I know you want to get it done. So it becomes, how can I make sure that she knows I'm serious about this and I'm going to do what I need to do. And I'm also there to support her. And then things start happening. And the whole goal has been met of not only just get through the difficult conversation, but to use it as a way to make things better. I've also experienced too, in this kind of decision making phase is sometimes it's

framing it in a test, right? So what we're going to do next or what we're going to test out next and how we'll determine if it's working or not working, or if we need to regroup and have the conversation again. I think sometimes, you know, when you're having difficult conversations, there's a compromise that happens, or there's a meeting in the middle that happens, but neither of the people feel sometimes 100% confident that everything got decided the way they wanted it to, right? And so, you know, framing it as a test or, you know, something that you're going to see if it works after a period of time, but then come back decisions. Why wouldn't we want to do that with difficult conversations as well? That's an excellent point. So just because we've decided something here, more information might

pop up down the line or things might change and making sure that we circle back with each other to see how things are going. And if we need to adjust our approach, you're right. That's a really important follow-up. Awesome. Okay. So the way to become a doctor of persuasion or a GAPMD, so A stands for audience, G goals, A ask good questions, P paraphrase, M make suggestions, and D decide next steps. I love that. Something that sticks in the brain. Lynn, are there any differences or thoughts you have about having difficult conversations at work versus in our personal lives? Any nuances we should be aware of? One thing that comes to mind is that there is a certain level of professionalism that you are expected to have at work. So many of these conversations might end up being more formal because in a lot of times,

the power structure is not equal. You're going to be talking differently with somebody who supervises your work versus somebody who works on a team in another area who doesn't necessarily report to you. So it becomes knowing what the nuances are in the relationship between the two of you at work. And that's why we go through that first step of audience and answering those questions to be really clear on that. And at the same time, when we're talking about the difficult conversations that we need to have in our personal lives, usually there is a lot more baggage there. And when we talk about, so what's the hot button that I push when I get angry or when she gets angry or he gets angry or we get frustrated with each other, and to know that sometimes things have a tendency to go off on a tangent and to be able to take that deep breath and bring things back and remind people, I'm not angry. And here's another thing for both conversations, but particularly for

personal conversations. Those mirror neurons we were talking about with body language, they also work with voice tone and quality. So when someone else raises her voice, I have a tendency to respond in kind and raise my voice too. And then you've seen it on how many TV sitcoms. I'm not yelling. Yes, you're yelling. And the people are yelling at each other. And it

happened because one person raised her voice a little bit and the other person responded and things escalated. So watch, particularly in personal conversations where things are escalating and choose to take that deep breath. And literally, if somebody is yelling, don't respond that way. Take your voice down, make it calmer, make it slower, because that person too has mirror neurons. And when you deescalate, it invites the other person to deescalate too, because you don't want to end up screaming and hollering at each other about something that has absolutely nothing to do with a difficult conversation subject in the first place. Is it possible on both sides, but I think more on the personal side,

that it might be beneficial to take a break between the AGAP MD process? So like if emotions run hot or, you know, for example, between the paraphrase and make suggestions as to, you know, why don't we take a few minutes and get back together with some suggestions we might have that might help to take those deep breaths, but in a, you know, get yourself together moment. What do you think about that? Yeah. Take the space as well as the breath, you know, And it's true. Probably the most difficult conversation I've had was when I needed to tell my husband that I was no longer in our marriage. And I sat down and I did this process so that I would know what to say. And of course, I knew that he would have felt taken by surprise and he would be angry and that I needed to allow him to have the feelings he was going to have rather than try to manage them. And, you know,

and there was one point, I kid you not, you know, it felt amusing to me and frustrating at the same time where he informed me because my ex-husband is a graphic designer whose opinion I trust. And fortunately, we're still good friends. And he at one point said to me, and you ought to have a new headshot taken for your business card because that the one you have now is really terrible. And my initial reaction was, oh, he thinks that's an awful picture of me and that I'm ugly, blah, blah. So I was like, don't go down the rat hole and take a deep breath. He is just now throwing everything at you because he's, you know, he's afraid and he's hurt and he's angry. And you just need to let this one go rather than

start talking about business card pictures. Let people have the reactions that they need to have in order to move forward. Yeah, such good stuff there. I think we can all relate to and thank you for sharing a little bit of a personal experience to know that you actually use this not, you know, not just in your professional life, but in your personal life too. I know you're writing a second book. That's actually how we met as you interviewed me for a part of that book. It's called Leaders on Rapport, Secrets to Creating Successful Connections. Can you tell us briefly a little bit more about this and when we can expect to see it? Well, and thank you for asking. I set myself a goal at the beginning of this year to interview somewhere between 50 and 100 people and ask them a deceptively simple question. What is your secret to creating rapport

quickly and sustaining it over time with your clients and others? And shut up and listen to what they had to say. Because here's what I believe. There's only so much we can do on our own. So if we want to accomplish bigger things, we need to work with other people. How do we create those connections? And I decided rapport is really the gateway to all of that, isn't it? So I need to pay attention to how we start building rapport because that enables connection and that enables relationship and that enables trust. If that's the case, then building rapport is important. Let's focus on that. And then let's talk to all kinds of people who are smarter than I am and who are doing a good

job on this. And the second half of this year, I'm going to take all of the good stuff I've learned, including the insights that you shared, Nicole, and do the analysis of it. Let's look for the patterns. Let's look for the outliers. And because I'm a neuroscience nerd, let's overlay neuroscience on top of that to make sense of what it is that I'm seeing and write the book in the second half of this year and then have it available in the first quarter of next year. So it will have all the great stuff I learned from hanging out with smart people like you. And then also because I'm a neuroscience nerd, at the end of every chapter, there will be exercises on how to use this stuff because we all read great books and think, yeah, I'm going to do

that. And then we get hit with the most powerful force in the universe, which is inertia, and we do absolutely nothing. So I'm going to make sure that there are exercises in there. Once we learn something new, then how do we apply it and get to practice it so it can actually make a difference in our lives so we can build more rapport, create those great connections and relationship and have more trust in our lives? Thanks for asking. Yeah, my pleasure. I'm excited for it to come out. To learn more about Lynn and her work or to follow her, best places on LinkedIn. Her name is spelled L-Y-N-N-E, last name Franklin, F-R-A-N-K-L-I-N. So check her out on LinkedIn or search for her on her YouTube channel. Or you can visit her TEDx talk by just searching TEDx Lynn Franklin. Any way you want is great. And just keep an eye out

for that new book. Lynn, thank you so much for your time today and sharing a really effective process. This has been helpful for me and I know our listeners as well. It's been a pleasure to be with you. And for all of you who have difficult conversations coming up, when you do this process, it's going to make this a whole lot easier and it's going to give you a better outcome. And that's exactly what I want for you. Thanks for listening. Yeah. And let me add, if you are going to do this process and you've never done anything like it, whether it's reaching out to, you know, if you have a business coach or a therapist or a friend who might be also preparing to have a difficult conversation, I think, you know, sometimes the prep work can be a little bit more fun and a little bit more productive

if you include somebody else, if you're not super used to doing this. So just a thought. Okay, regardless of what, communicating effectively, asking for what we want and need, standing up for ourselves, feeling heard and understood, while at the same time making the other people in our lives professionally and personally also feel heard and understood while at the same time making the other people in our lives professionally and personally also feel heard and understood. All of this is such important work. And this is Woman's Work.