This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 028 / Your Child’s Mental Health with Abby DeMarzo

Episode Date: September 2, 2020

On any given day I can go from one extreme to the other, either convinced that I am destroying my child's mental health during COVID, to believing that everything is going to be just fine. So how concerned should we actually be about our kids right now? In this episode, I welcome guest Abby DeMarzo - Licenced Mental Health Counselor who works with kids and adults dealing with both depression and anxiety. Abby shares her expertise and personal experience (she’s a mom!), on what our kids are experiencing, and gives some tips on what we should be focusing on right now with our children. Here’s a hint...it’s not struggling to set them up for school, stressing about their abundant screen time or perfecting their schedule to a T! This is Woman’s Work To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as parents to have these deep, meaningful, hear the questions and then write down the answers type of scenario. And really, I think kids need far, far less than that. They just want to feel like they can be heard. Hi, friends. Welcome to today's episode of This Is Woman's Work. I'm your host, Nicole Kalil, speaker, coach, and wine and cheese enthusiast. To learn more about how we're redefining woman's work, you can follow me on Instagram at Nicole M. Khalil or visit my website at NicoleKhalil.com, where at times I feel like I should have a pop-up greeting that says, welcome to the shit show. Thankfully,

not always, but I am going to keep it real that being a business owner, a wife, a mom, a sister, daughter, friend, et cetera, et cetera, has gotten a little bit ugly and a lot messy over the last few months. And I mostly love my imperfect little shit show, but I do have my moments, which brings me here today to talk about something that's been weighing heavy on oh so many women, myself included. Coronavirus has wreaked havoc in more ways than I can mention, and its damage has impacted us all differently. There are extreme challenges with time, money, relationships, and there are also silver linings and positive learnings. There are women who would give anything, like literally anything, for any amount of alone time.

And there are also women who've never felt as lonely as they do today. Women are leaving or considering leaving careers in record numbers as many of us are recognizing that we still have a lot of work to do as it relates to equitable parenting. And right now, for many of us, with decisions to make about how our children go to school, I'm seeing that the only person's mental health that we're more worried about than our own is our kids. And because of that, I've invited Abby DeMarza to join us as our guest today to talk about just that, our kids' mental health. Abby is a licensed mental health counselor who has worked with children, adolescents, and adults dealing with depression and anxiety. Her approach focuses on solution-focused therapy, so I'm kind of hoping she can just tell us what to do. I'm guessing it doesn't work

that way though. Thank you so much, Abby, for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here. Me too. So a little bit of inside information. Abby's husband is also named Jay. So we both are married to Jays and our Jays actually work together. So we were connected through our husbands a few months back. And so I can tell you, not only is Abby a great resource, she's also an awesome woman and I'm excited for our time together. So let me kick off by asking this, Abby, how concerned should we actually be about our children right now? I mean, honestly, I feel like from one minute to the next, I can go from one extreme to the other. Like one minute, I'm convinced that, you know, we're completely destroying our children's mental health right now. And then a

few minutes later, I'm like, you know, everything's going to be just fine and everything in between. So based on what you're seeing and observing and experiencing and working with both children and adults, how concerned should we actually be? That's a great question. I cannot tell you how often I'm having this exact conversation with my clients. And I see clients as young as six years old, and I have clients who are 70 plus, and we are having this exact conversation. Obviously with my clients who are parents, we are more so having the conversation about their children and mental health and all of that. But essentially the theme remains the same, which is some days you're down, some days you're up. You swing really without being provoked by anything at all.

Big things happen, little things happen, and we're all just trying to find a middle ground. So what I want people to get from me being here with you today and speaking on this topic is, yes, I know that there's concerns. We have things to be concerned about, but, and that's the big, but in all capital letters and bold, we are all going to be okay. And our children, I know we're worried about them and some days are better than others, but ultimately they are going to come out of this. And yes, they are going to remember it because this is a bizarre life circumstance that they've never had any experience with, but we are going to be able to find the good in this and they

are going to remember parts of it, but they are not going to remember it as we sometimes feel or worry that they are, which is this awful, traumatic, terrible, the sky was black six months of our time. Yeah. Are you seeing that kids are more or less worried than their parents? You know, I just, you get this unique opportunity to hear from both perspectives. I kind of think in just talking with JJ, which is obviously just one kid, sometimes I think we are more worried about what they're worried about than, than there is actually something to be worried about. Does that make any sense? Yes. And that ties in with one point that I wanted to make sure I made during this podcast is that last night over dinner, I thought, oh, you know what? I should be asking my own kids. I have,

we have two boys, seven and a half and six. Really my boys said that what they remember from not being in school and having to do their schoolwork at home and not seeing their friends as much and not seeing family as much is that they remember that we laughed a lot, that Jay and I were playing with them at home, that they got to sleep in a little bit. And they were very focused on the fact that we let some of our rules slip and we let them eat pizza in the living room on Saturday nights. And I thought, oh my goodness, you can eat pizza in the living room on Saturday nights. And I thought, oh my goodness, you can eat pizza in the living room every Saturday night until you're 27. If that's how you feel like, you know what, we had some fun and I didn't feel so scared or overwhelmed by this really, really bizarre time. And I know my family looks very different from anyone else's families as it should,

but just those answers, I really wanted to make sure I shared those today because I think as parents, we know more, we've seen more, we're aware of more, we're probably out there in the world more than our children are. And they are smart, they are intuitive, they see things that we don't imagine that they see. But at the same time, they are just more simple than we are. And their takeaways come with a lot less stress than what we may want to put on them as parents. So I'm sharing that as a blanket statement to parents, to moms that yes, of course, keep an eye on these things and every day be thinking about how can I make sure we're all good here, but have compassion for yourself in

that we've never done this before. We have no experts that are going to tell us, well, yes, you know, when this happened two years ago, this is how we handled it. And here are the research results and here's what you do. And here's what you don't do. There's no guidelines. We're doing the best that we can and we're learning as we go. And I am seeing across the board that people are handling this far better than I think they even believed that they could had we presented this scenario last year and said, surprise, guess what's going to happen in 2020. I think people are worried and I hear that and I don't want to minimize that at all, but I think we're worried beyond what we need to be. And I think that that's a

message that's very important for me to convey to people. Yeah. Oh my gosh. There are so many good things in there. I think I can speak for myself and a lot of moms when I say, when we think back over the last few months, I have a tendency to think about running from a meeting to, you know, to JJ getting set up on a computer for a school Zoom call and then running back. And then, you know, I remember the times that I lost my cool and my patience. I remember the times where I felt like I hit a breaking point. And so we have a tendency, I think, whether it's mom guilt or whatever, to think about those things and hold onto those things and worry about those things. So I love the checking in with our kids and asking them what they're remembering, what are the pros and cons from their perspective?

Because I think you're right. I don't know if it's, um, there are youth that has them focus more on the positive or, or like you said, keep things a little bit more simple, but you know, when you hear that, it relieves so much of the pressure that we're putting on ourselves. Yes. And I think that that is something that we all need to do a little bit more. There's so much pressure. And again, another constant conversation that I'm having with clients is social media. I know it's 2020. We're all on it to varying degrees based on age and how we use it. I don't want to come on to your show and say, everyone get off of social media. But to me, it's becoming more and more obvious that we need to be very, very careful with how we use social media because very few people are comfortable

with putting their real, honest, raw stuff out there. And I understand that. But at the same time, we are then looking to other people to see, well, how are they handling it and what's working for them? And, you know, if I'm being really honest with myself, I would love to see another mom just in it and looking like it's not going well over there so I can feel better, but we aren't seeing those things per se on social media. And it makes the feelings harder. We feel this immense pressure that we put on ourselves. And then we go to seek some sort of reassurance on social media. And what we're getting is everyone's edited, perfect version of here's my arts and crafts day.

And here are my kids perfectly sitting at their desks that are all organized for their school day. And I don't doubt that there are people that are out there that are doing an amazingly seamless, wonderful job. But I think if we just took a day or two where we put some real pictures out there and some real commentary, I think we could have moms feeling wonderfully. Not that we're looking to put others down. It's just we're all in this and we're doing the best that we can.

And some days they look really great. And some days they look horrendous. But in the honesty, I think we would end up feeling a lot better. Yeah. Oh, I couldn't agree more. I believe that judgment and comparison, and I think both of those kick into high gear on social media judgment of ourselves and others and comparison um you know comparison of our day-to-day lives to somebody's highlight moments right so what people are posting on social media is the best versions or the best days or their their best behaved kids and we tend to compare our everyday lives to that. And ultimately what I believe that it does is it chips away at our confidence because we're comparing ourselves

unrealistically and we're always going to come out. You know, the short end of the stick. Exactly. Yeah. So, okay. Lots of good things in there. Um, are you noticing any differences generally speaking between how elementary school, middle school, high school kids are coping differently? I have definitely seen a lot of nervousness and fears in my younger clients around this idea of essentially big bad germs that are coming to get them. And that's where we've done our work of just doing what we know how to do to take care of ourselves and to keep ourselves healthy. And yes, this feels like more, but it's really about the basics and trying to focus their fears in that way of, you know how to take care of yourself. Just make sure you're doing that and you are going to be okay. That's been more of a theme in my elementary school kids. With my high schoolers, I have really seen what a lack of social interaction will do to your mood and your general well-being.

It's that, to be honest, has been staggering. And I know that we all exist on a spectrum and we're going to find people that just tend to be more introverted and are OK with being at home. But I would say the 14 to 20 year olds, when you take away all of these institutions that they use for so much of their development, the schools, the sports, the peers, they, I've really seen a lot of hurting across the board in terms of what it looks like to pull those things out from under you. And thankfully, knock on wood, a lot of them are getting back into things as they're comfortable and their families are comfortable. But I don't know that there was one high schooler prior to all of this that that really knew how good school and sports and peers and friends were for them.

I think they knew they enjoyed a lot of it. But I do not have one client at this point who would not gallop back into a school building and probably go seven days a week. So that has been really interesting for me to see. And it's about perspective in that we're trying to figure out what, when you really felt like most things had been taken away or were on hold, what did you miss the most and how can we work to incorporate some amount of that back in? As families are comfortable, that's always the tricky part of just not needing to navigate this on a family unit basis, not just an individual basis, but

trying to figure out what has hit the hardest and how do we get that back for you? I recorded a podcast with JJ and we didn't, I made it a point to not do any preparation. I didn't tell her what questions I was going to be asking or anything like that. And I asked her, you know, what she liked about what's been going on, what she didn't like, what she misses. And I asked her, you know, what she thought about going to school. And her answer was, I don't think that, you know, we should be going back to school. And it was just really, really interesting because it hit me. I hadn't asked her opinion before, like Jay and I had been talking about it. We've been going back and forth, you know, following on social media, like all the things. But until that moment, I, I realized I hadn't

asked her, are we having these conversations with our children? And I get with younger children that, you know, we're ultimately the ones that have to decide, but how often should we be having these conversations? And I like that you said too, that they're going to change and evolve because new information is coming out and things seem to be changing on a regular basis anyway. So I guess long-winded way of asking, are there any best practices? Do we do this at dinner once a week? What do you think? I think we as parents think, okay, it's got to be this sit down conversation and we need to ask the right questions and it needs to be at the right time. I think these conversations are probably happening far more than we give ourselves credit for and And they don't need to be these big, important family

moments. I think you're probably going to get your best answers and input from your kids at a time where they're, as you're saying, you didn't prepare for that particular podcast at a time where you're really not all that prepared and they aren't either, because that's a real conversation. And I think as long as you go into any type of conversation that could happen with your kids with this idea of, you know what, I'm trying to gauge their thinking and where they're at and what they may have heard and give them the space to ask some questions and put out any of their feelings, you're going to have a great conversation. It may scare you as a parent a little bit to not have a huge sense of where

you're going with the conversation or what you may be asking next. But in terms of what they are going to pull from that conversation, I think it's invaluable in that they're going to feel like, you know what, mom and dad are really busy, but they sat down with me and we had this conversation and, or we were in the car and they weren't on the phone or they weren't listening to something on the news, we were having this little chat. And I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as parents to have these deep, meaningful, hear the questions and then write down the answers type of scenario. And really, I think kids need far, far less than that. They just want to feel like they can be heard. And I know it is very hard to keep your reactions in as the mom or the dad who's worried or who's scared or who's upset or frustrated. I think the best thing that we can do for our kids is to always make them feel like

no matter what it is that they're thinking or they're feeling or they want to say, we can let them get it out. I think that that is hands down one of the most important things that we can give our children. Just this idea that no matter what it is, you can come talk to us about it. That is so helpful. As you were talking, I was thinking about a few times where I'd sort of pre-planned a conversation. It never goes the way I thought it would in my head. And sometimes JJ is like, you know, are we done yet? Can we talk about something else now? Right. And not to discount that kind of conversation because you're going to get great things out of that too. But I think as parents with that pressure idea, we go in thinking, okay,

we must ask all of our questions before this conversation is over. And kids are kids and you, you get them at a time where they really are chatty and they want to talk, or you get them on that day where they would rather, who knows, they don't want to be having that conversation with you. And I think we tend to push at times where we really shouldn't or don't need to. And if we just approach it with this idea that at any point a conversation can be had, I think we will feel less pressure as parents to get all the questions and all the answers jammed into one particular spot. Yeah. So good. Okay. So I have two, well, one thought and a question. I have been over the last several months sort of gently reminding myself that my anxiety, my worries, my stress, and all of that could probably have a greater negative impact on my kids' mental health than whatever's going on with school or social distancing, things like that. Said another way,

I've been trying to be kind and gentle with myself. And I've been trying to prioritize in any way that I can taking care of myself mentally and emotionally, because I sometimes worry that the biggest harm that we can be doing as mothers is not ultimately what happens or doesn't happen with school or not ultimately what happens or doesn't happen with activities, but who we are with our kids on a day-to-day basis. I know the overwhelmed, frustrated, anxious version of myself is not a good thing for me or for my kid. So what's your reaction to that? I think you're doing a great thing by being aware of it and by being willing to just look at yourself and trying to figure out, okay, this is me and this is how I feel. Is this good for me? Which is a hugely important question, but then taking it one step further and saying, okay, as an adult with an ability to think pretty critically, if I'm answering that question to

myself of, you know, I don't feel good in this, this doesn't feel so great. Do I think that it's helping my child? And the answer really is no, we don't want you feeling very stressed and anxious. And we certainly don't want that to ooze out to the way that you are communicating with your child. Now, that being said, we are human beings. We are not perfect. It is going to come out. Of course. But what I tell all my clients is if we are sitting here talking about it, it means that you already are aware of this. This is something that you clearly know is going on and it's popping up in your mind because it's not making you feel that comfortable.

And you're sitting here and you're willing to talk about it, which means we're absolutely going to be able to make some changes and have you feel better because you've done half the battle, which is you've noticed. You've noticed that something isn't working for you and we're talking about it. You said it on the onset, you know, there isn't any research that we can refer to or any studies that have been done, you know, so we don't have, and I'm putting this in air quotes, proof of what we should be doing, right? So given that, are there any helpful articles or books or resources that you found for those people who maybe want to dig into this a little bit deeper or aren't in a position to go to therapy next week? Yes. Yes. So ironically, before this happened, I read a book and I thought, my goodness, as a professional, I love this book. As a mom, I like this book. And

if I really didn't even know what I was picking up and I just picked this up and I read it, I would like this book. And the reason I say that is because, well, the book title is anxious kids, anxious parents, and the author is Reed R E I D Wilson. It was so clear and so concise. And it talks about this very topic that you're bringing up that if we have some anxious tendencies as an adult, as a parent, are we passing some, or do we have an ability to show that to our children and without meaning to teach them some anxious tendencies. And sometimes it works like that. Sometimes we just have a worried, anxious child and the parent really doesn't demonstrate that at all, but we're just wired how we're wired. But the bottom line of this book was whether we have an anxious child

or we have an anxious parent, here's all this new language where you might think this and you might have said it in this way in the past, try doing it this way. And I actually, I ripped through the book. I gave it to a neighbor, not with any commentary that I felt that she was an anxious parent or that her child was an anxious person, but she read it. And I have seen so many examples from her that she shared with me where she and her husband have changed the language in which they approach their children and have seen major results. And I thought, oh my goodness, I just handed her this book through the backyard and she got into it. And, and there was obviously some takeaway messages. I got some, we shared some of the same takeaways and then she pulled things that I didn't really

pull out of it. And so I keep recommending this book to people because it's not pandemic centered. It doesn't need to be. It's just about, okay, when we feel like our worry is coming up, our stress is coming up, how are we talking to ourselves and to our family members? And how can we tweak it just a little bit so that we're talking about the same thing, but we're doing it not fear-based. We're doing it from, okay, here's what's going on. How can we feel really confident and feel really great about ourselves rather than really nervous and really scared and trash talking ourselves?

So I am happy to pass that book recommendation on again and again. about ourselves rather than really nervous and really scared and trash talking ourselves. So I am happy to pass that book recommendation on again and again. So that I am ordering it as soon as we're done. I lived closer. I would just hand you my copy. It's here. It does come to, I haven't gotten into the second part. There's a sister or a companion book that's for older high school college kids, just as a, almost like a workbook that goes along with it. I haven't dug into that yet, but it certainly has opportunities for more reading that go with it. I love it. Abby, thank you so much for your expertise and your thoughts and ideas. I think we all, you can use a little bit of guidance and if nothing else, just somebody

to remind us that it is all going to be okay. So I'm so appreciative of your time and your wisdom today. If you're listening and you want to learn more about Abby, you can check out her website at abigaildemarzo, L-M-H-C. So that's A-B-I-G-A-I-L-D-E-M-A-R-Z-O-L-M-H-C.com. Or you can follow her on Facebook at Abby DeMarzo, L-M-H-C. Thanks again, Abby. This is great. Awesome. Glad to be here. All right. I'm going to keep saying this over and over for your benefit as well as mine. This is the time for giving ourselves and others some grace. It's a time for kindness and giving the benefit of the doubt. We all need to decide what's best for ourselves, our family, and our children. None of us are the deciders of what's the best for another person. None of us have the answers.

Judgment of yourself and others is not helpful here. Rigidity, comparison, and anger won't serve you or the people you love. Let's keep putting one foot in front of the other with kindness, courage, and all the confidence we can muster, and maybe a little extra wine. Because this is Woman's Work.