This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 029 / The Art of Networking with Julie Brown

Episode Date: September 9, 2020

I have a confession to make. I’ve spent my entire career avoiding networking like the plague. The idea of going into a room with all new people and having to make small talk... just the very idea of it makes this introvert super uncomfortable. (wine please!) In this episode, I welcome guest Julie Brown - Networking Coach, Business Development Strategist, Speaker, Author, Podcaster, to share with us how we can ALL be better at networking and relationship building. Julie shares the importance of connecting with people in a 360 degree fashion. And how by using her “list yourself” approach, you will transform your networking! As women, many of these things come naturally to us, relationship building, gut feeling, authentic conversations, listening and empathy. We were born with the skills to network. And you add in Julie’s tips and approaches and we are golden! Now let’s get out there and do it! This Shit Works! :) This is Woman’s Work To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. I'm going to give first. Like if you go into networking with the idea that you're going to meet people with the hope of helping them first, I think it takes some of that pressure off of you feeling like you're going to be rejected. I am Nicole Cleal, your host of the This Is Woman's Work podcast, and I have a confession to make. I've spent my entire career avoiding networking like the plague. It literally makes me anxious. I am absolutely an introvert. And so the idea of going into a room with all new people and having small talk, like I really suck at small talk. It is not a skill. Having awkward conversations and wanting to turn those

conversations into business opportunities, but kind of trying to pretend that I'm not trying to do that, it all just makes me feel like super uncomfortable. So I know networking is important, but I've always had a hard time with the concept. I've come to learn there are a lot of different ways to network, but it's like I have battle scars and flashbacks of hotel conference rooms, name tags, and hoping somebody will talk to me. So, okay, I've confessed and now I'm ready to be redeemed. I've asked Julie Brown, networking coach, business development strategist, speaker, author of the book, This Shit Works, A No-Nonsense Guide to Networking, and now fellow podcaster to join us to share how we can all be better at networking and relationship building. Julie, thank you so much for joining us. I literally feel like you might be saving me right now.

It sounds like it. Oh, everything you said about networking, I was like, oh, no, it's not true. It's not true. I know it's kind of an old school way we used to do it, you know, I think like 20 years ago or whatever, but it still stuck with me. So talk to us about what networking and relationship building means to you, because I'm quite certain it's not what I just said. Yeah. If I think back to when I first started my career, I don't think I understood networking the way I, the lens through which I see it now. And I looked at it the way you looked at it. Like I have to go into this room. I have to try to sell my business. Well, it wasn't mine. I was working for another company. And what if they don't like me? And what if I don't talk correctly? What if I can't create a conversation and we just stare at each other? And then I realized that networking is all about humans going into a room

and having a conversation and learning more about each other. And I always say that if you can pull away from the conversation about how are you and what do you do, which are really low dopamine inducing questions, the lowest dopamine inducing question is what do you do? Like nobody wants to answer that even when they're at a networking event, which is all about work. So I teach people that you need to connect with people in a 360 degree fashion we are all three-dimensional people with big messy lives and we have hobbies and we do things in our spare time

and we have families and when you go into an event and all you say is what do you do it's just you're carving out such a narrow sliver of connecting with that person. And we all know, I mean, it's, it's a fact people do business with and refer business to people they know, like, and trust. So I try to teach people how to build know, like, and trust within the relationships that they create through networking. I love that distinction. And when you said that, it hit me so hard. I hate when people ask me what I do, let alone going and asking somebody else. So can you give maybe some examples of better questions to ask? I mean, I don't want to get too tactical too fast, but are there any high dopamine inducing questions? Yes. Okay. So here's the thing. In my book, I talk about this approach

that I created called the list yourself approach. And the list yourself approach is just a way of cataloging all of the things that make you you, who you are in this world and what you like to do with it, in it. And so if I was going to rattle off the top of my head, my list would be, okay, I'm a wife. I'm a dog mom. I'm a world traveler. I am a big wine snob. I love... Yes. I knew I liked you. And then once I went on this horrible carb-free diet and then I realized that tequila is carb-free and then I became a tequila snob. And then I'm a skier, but I didn't learn how to ski until I was 40. I'm a mountain biker. I'm an avid podcast listener. Anything like listen, all I listen to for podcasts that aren't business is

true crime. Like that's my jam. Yeah, me too. Oh, we'll have to compare afterwards. Oh my gosh. I, if I wasn't doing what I was, what I'm doing, I would be a detective. Oh my God, me too. People would say, what did you want to be when you grew up? I was like, well, I wanted to be part of the gorgeous ladies of wrestling. And if that didn't work out, I wanted to be a detective. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Nancy Drew from like the earliest ages. I would.

Yeah. Anyways. Okay. Keep going. Sorry. I derailed us. No, it was not. It was the perfect tangent because this list yourself approach

is how you develop dopamine inducing questions. And what happened between us when you were like, oh yeah, my God, me too. Oh my true crime. Like that was when dopamine spiked in our brains. Like dopamine inducing questions are things where you ask questions in which the person wants to respond. It elicits an energetic response. So where have your favorite places been to travel? Like, what do you like to listen to? What books do you like to read? Like, things that people want to respond to and like are energetic in their response. So it's exactly what happened between you and me in that conversation is you can do that in a networking event. And that is also how you mentioned you're an introvert in your

opening. That is also how introverts can have hugely dynamic and charismatic conversations just by asking the right questions. Yeah. I mean, I love how you didn't just say it, but you basically demonstrated it beautifully because that's, I did, I got excited. And I would, the, we should talk offline about like, it already sets up a potential future conversation in a relationship and there was, yeah. So this So the list yourself approach followed by dopamine inducing conversations is what leads to the most important part of networking, which is follow up. And it doesn't make any sense to meet somebody, whether you meet somebody at an event or whether you're on an online networking event, it makes absolutely no sense to invest time in an

event, meet somebody, have a conversation, and not have a plan for following up. And dopamine inducing questions and conversations give you the easiest path to follow up where right after this, if we were at an event and we had that conversation, when I got back to my computer, I could say, Nicole, it was so amazing meeting you. These are my favorite True Crime podcasts. Let's compare notes, blah, blah, blah. And that's an email that you want to respond to. So you respond to me, and then that's it. We are in a cadence of responding back and forth to each other.

And we are building that relationship over something we have in common. And once we have something in common, we're going to want to do business together. So, and again, I'm kind of going tactical, but is there any general rules of thumb or advice on when to transition this relationship building conversation into business? Because I know sometimes I can think back where I would build a relationship with people, but then I'd be like, God, now it's going to be weird for me to conversation into business. Because I know sometimes I can think back where I would build a relationship with people, but then I'd be like, God, now it's going to be weird for me to bring up business. Or they might think, oh, that's what this was all about all along, right? So a couple of thoughts on that. Number one is you have to have respect for how long it takes for a relationship to incubate, for how long

that person will take to get to know, like, and trust and want to work with you or want to refer you. And generally speaking, the statistics around that are that you have to have five solid interactions with the other person, mostly, you know, before COVID, I would say mostly face-to-face. You have to have at least five solid interactions with somebody. And generally speaking, people give up around the fourth interaction because they are keeping score. You know, they're like, okay, I did this and then I did this and then I did this and I haven't gotten anything yet. You're just never going to win if you keep score.

So after about the fifth interaction with a potential client is when you should have invested enough in that relationship where you have displayed integrity and trust and you've helped that person. You've been an avenue for information for them or made connections for them. After that is when I feel you are capable of saying, I really like you. I really want to work with you. How can we find a way to work together? And it doesn't mean you're going to work with that person, you know, back and forth. They could refer you to someone or they could say, I think someone, this person in my network could use your services. So it doesn't mean you're going to work with that person. It just means that they're at

the point where they might be able to refer you to someone who could use your services. But that's about the rule of thumb is you have to have at least five solid interactions before a person will determine whether or not they would use your services or refer your services. And it's fair to say that people will, I like the rule of thumb that speaks to me, but it's fair to say that people know, like, and trust people at different stages. Like I'm guessing there are some people that, you know, they feel good about turning into business after one or two interactions. And then there's some people that might take 10. And so a little bit of trusting your gut.

And we we as women tend to be better at relationship building than our male counterparts, I think. So is there an element of trusting your gut? Yes. In my book, I have a chapter and I equate building a relationship to planning a garden because I love to garden. And I talk about, you know, in your garden, there are some vegetables that grow, come to fruition like in 30 days, and there are some that take 90 days. And, but you treat them all the same way. You give them proper soil and sunlight and water water and you take care of them. And as they grow above ground, their roots also grow below ground. So you're like really

strengthening your connection with that person. And it's hard without, okay, here's my big tomato. I can now ask for something without like a visual saying of this relationship. It is a gut thing. Gut check yourself. Have I displayed integrity in this relationship? Have I given first? Have I been a good ally to this person? Have I had their best interest at heart in reaching out to them? Like, gut check yourself first before you ask. That's what I would say. I love that. And if any of the women that I've coached or done presentations with are listening,

they're going to be giggling because I use the gardening analogy as well as it relates to asking for referrals and prospecting and letting people know that, you know, you build your business that way, or you'd appreciate introductions. So that totally resonated with me. And I'm also so glad it's not another sports analogy, which I've heard a lot in male dominated industries. Okay. So I know fear of rejection plays a part for a lot of people as it relates to networking and relationship building. What are your thoughts there? I think fear of rejection is a human condition. Every human wants to be accepted.

And when you are networking, you think you are going into a space to say, I need something. I need somebody to use my business. I'm trying to sell my services. Where if you look at it from the lens of, I'm offering a service that could help somebody. I just need to find the person who my services help. Or I have something to offer somebody. I'm going to give first. Like if you go into networking with the idea that you're going to meet people with the hope of helping them first,

I think it takes some of that pressure off of you feeling like you're going to be rejected because it's not like you're asking for something right out of the gate. We're never going to not be afraid of rejection. I mean, this could be 10,000 podcasts on the fear of rejection. We're never as humans going to get over our fear of rejection and our need to be accepted. But if you go in first saying, I have something to offer, my services could be of help to somebody. I need to be accepted. But if you go in first saying, I have something to offer, my services could be of help to somebody. I need to find the right way in which I can help other people. If you just flip the script on it a little bit, that's when it will help you not feel that fear of rejection. But also, no, if you're going into a networking event,

everybody who's going into that networking event, everybody's going into that networking event is going to that networking event for a reason, to meet other people. So it's not like you're going into a networking event doing something completely different than everybody else in that networking event is doing. They're all there to meet other people. Yeah, two really important points. When you go to a networking event or go on like LinkedIn or networking sites, that's what everybody is there to do. Right. So at least in theory, that should reduce our anxiety and any awkwardness because we're all there for the same reasons. And that is to network or relationship build. And I love the shift in perspective when you're networking to how do I introduce myself to people to find the people I can help? Right. Because you can't help everybody. You're not for everybody and everybody's not for you. But if you're coming from that place, you know, it's less about rejection or personal rejection and it's more. You're not for everybody.

So you're not for everybody. Not everybody in that room is going to be a potential client for you. But what you need to understand about every single person in that room is every single person in that room has an ability to refer you to someone else. So I always tell people that I wish we could go into events without any name tags or company names because people start getting an idea of other people's value of them for that person. Like, oh, that person can't do anything for me. Oh, that person's not in my field. Like that I feel is a huge misguidance. There is this idea that everybody has a sphere of influence of

250 people, which is like everybody knows about 250 people in our opinions carry weight with those 250 people. So if you go into a room and you meet somebody and you say, well, they're never going to be a client, you are automatically disregarding the 250 people with which their opinion carries weight. So I always say there's no wrong people to network with. There's no people that are like, oh, they're not in my field or they can't help me. That is where so many people, they trip up with networking because they start assigning value to people and their roles. And I think part of the reason why I've been so successful with networking is I always saw everybody as a person that I wanted to build a relationship with, that I wanted to help,

and that I also wanted to have access to their sphere of influence. So well said. Every part of that resonates with and speaks to me. So we talked a lot about walking into a room. Obviously, with everything going on right now, it's maybe not as easy to do that. How can we shift to networking and building relationships in a virtual environment? Sure. So there are so many events right now online. Most of the organizations, I would say first, you should belong to some organizations. Somewhere within your field or your industry, you should have a membership to at least one or two organizations, networking organizations. And all of those organizations have transferred their events to online events. And they're getting really nimble and really good at making sure that all of those events have a networking component, either in

breakout rooms at the beginning of the event or breakout rooms at the end of the event. They're all getting really good at that. So not being able to go to a physical event is not an excuse for not networking right now. Now is the time to double down on networking because most of these events that used to cost money are now completely free to you. So make sure that every week you are dedicating a portion of your week, a portion of one day of your week, to going into an online networking event. They are just as important as in-person events. And it makes it easier for people because everybody is, their names are on their little like Zoom blocks. So you don't have to worry about remembering people's names. You can look at the Zoom invite and know exactly what company they work for. That kind of part has been

done for you. Now, in those networking events, make sure that you are using your list. You are asking dopamine-inducing questions. You have a notebook beside you for every single event so you can take notes about what you talked about, what other people talked about, writing down everybody's names that is in those Zoom boxes and making sure that you reach out to them the next day to continue whatever conversation you had or didn't have. If you have a conversation with somebody, that's super easy to follow up with an email. If there was somebody in that Zoom event and you didn't get to talk to them, now's your chance to reach out to them and say, we were both in the same event last night and we

didn't get to speak. I thought I would try to reach out to them and say, we were both in the same event last night and we didn't get to speak. I thought I would try to reach out to you here so we could have a conversation. Like it is so easy in virtual networking events to continue the networking process and the follow-up in the relationship building process. Yeah, that's so good. For people who maybe want to network one-on-one, so let's say they know of somebody or they're mutually connected to somebody, and at least from the outside looking in, it seems like there would be some good collaborative opportunities or you could help each other or that type of thing. How, number one, is that a good idea? Number two, how do you go about reaching out to somebody you don't know, or maybe, you know, only know through a connection to ask to do a networking or relationship building? It's always a good idea to be proactive

about meeting new people. Always. Your network needs to continually be added to. You need to continually be growing your network. So it's always a good idea to reach out and meet new people. Now, if you have somebody you know that you want to connect with, and you know somebody in your network is already connected to them, yes, ask for a strategic introduction. There's this thing I talk about in my book called triadic closure. And that is when somebody you don't know, you are introduced to somebody you don't know by somebody you do know. And because you have a mutual relationship with somebody else, the progress with which your relationship grows is sped up because you have a mutual friend.

So definitely use the power of the strategic introduction. Say, I know you're connected to this person. Do you know them well enough that you could create a strategic email to introduce us to each other? I really, really want to meet this person and this is why. Make sure that other person knows why you want to have that introduction. That's great. Good. Any mistakes that you see people make in networking or relationship building? Anything just right up front that we should be conscious of to avoid? You know, I was thinking about this last night. I was thinking about how much I miss in-person networking events. And then I was thinking, you know, what I don't miss about in-person networking events is the person who walks up

to you. Like if there's a group of people talking and the person that walks up and just hands out their business card. And I wouldn't say it out loud until maybe now. And now that I've written a book and I feel like an authority figure on networking, I would say, I didn't ask for your business card. You know, I want to at least have a bit of conversation with you before you shove your business card in my face or in my hands. Like, I think that is so rude. And it happens more often than not. I can't believe how much it happens. So that's one of the things that I would say is a no-no for networking. Another thing would be, so I talk a lot about how to remember names in my book. And one thing would be, if you know you've met somebody and you can't remember their name, admit it. Like just say, I know we've met, I we've met and I'm I'm having a complete brain

fart right now and I can't remember your name and I'm so sorry and it's embarrassing but what is your name like that is much better than having a conversation and completely avoiding their name and then having somebody else walk up to you and you're like oh so have you met this person? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such a good thing. And I'll ask, like when people ask you a question or you don't know the answer, rather than making up an answer, just saying, you know, I would hate to give you an incomplete answer or I'm not sure about that. Let me look into it and get back to you. Exactly. Or like there's so many things that I think we try to cover up for where when we're actually honest and vulnerable, it's much more endearing. Yeah. I know. You know, it's so funny. I was interviewing someone from my podcast yesterday and she kept using this word. And I finally was like, I have a pretty big vocabulary,

but I have no idea what that word is. And she was like, oh yeah, because it's slang. And I was like, I'm so glad that I said it. Cause then she was like, she went into this whole thing and just, you know, explain what the word meant and everything. And then we got in this whole cultural thing about the word. And I was like, if I just acted like I knew what that word was, we wouldn't have had that conversation. Yeah. So good. Okay. So I was very upfront that networking is not a great skill of mine or something that I've felt very comfortable with. What questions should I be asking or any tips that you have for our listeners that I just didn't ask the right question to get those tips out? You know, I think you asked all the right questions. This is the thing with networking. No one, we're not taught networking in school. We are taught

so many things, so many things that I don't use in my business to this day, and we are not taught networking. And it is okay if you feel uncomfortable, if you feel like a fish out of water, if you feel like you're not good at it, because these are not skills that we were taught. But like anything else, if you practice it, it's like a muscle memory. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it, the easier it will become. The more people you know, the easier networking will be because they'll start making strategic introductions for you. You can't beat yourself up about the fact that you're not a natural networker because nobody is because we weren't taught this. Nobody gets mad at themselves

when they pick up a guitar for the first time and they can't play it. You take lessons and you practice and you do it over and over again. And then suddenly it's second nature. So that's what I have to say about that because people are so upset with themselves if they think they're not good at networking. And there's so many people that could be tremendous networkers if they just said, okay, this is a skill I have to learn. Yeah. I like that, giving ourselves grace and not expecting us to be somewhere or to be good

at something without practice. I think I know myself and a lot of the women I work with, we have this perfectionist tendencies. So if we're not good at something right away, then there must be a problem as opposed to, well, I love your guitar analogy. Of course, you're not good at it. You just did it for the first time. Yeah. And perfection is the enemy of done. Yeah. And confidence. Yes. Yes. And you know, it's so funny. I had some stress issues a few years back and I went to see a stress counselor and they diagnosed me with perfectionist OCD. And because I wouldn't, I would needle something

until it was completely right. And it would derail me from a lot of different things. Like I couldn't get past something until it was perfect. So I had to learn that yes, there's black and white, but there's also this gray area and gray area is that's good enough. Yeah. I mean, I think so many of our listeners can relate to what you just said. I remember I had a professor from Wharton 70% of having the knowledge, the data, the information that you need to make the decision. And so often people wait way too long and they're trying to get to 100% and just to your point, then they don't do anything. Yes. So, I mean, and I think there's been a number of studies about this where if there's a job description and there's 10 points, you have to fill these 10 requirements for the job. If a man has five of them, he was like, hey, I'm overqualified. And if a woman has eight of them, she thinks she's underqualified.

And there's been plenty of studies on that. And I've heard the sentence that every day you just have to allow yourself to make massive imperfect actions because otherwise you will just be paralyzed by the fact that everything's not perfect. Yep. Yeah. So good. One question popped into my head. I think it's a quick one. But when you think about joining organizations for the purpose of networking, there's so many programs do they offer? What are you going to learn by going to their events? What does their membership look like? This is a big thing for me right now as I record my diversity and inclusion series for my podcast. How diverse is the membership? Does everybody look like me? Am I going to have a very homogenous experience base from the membership. There's a lot of different things to look at. So I would say, what are the events? What am I going to learn? Who do they have for

speakers? What does the membership look like? Is there a diverse group of ideas represented in that membership? Is it an active membership? Do they put on a lot of events where I could actually fill up my networking calendar with their events? Is there opportunity for me to have a committee position within this organization? Is there a possibility that I could actually get on the board of this organization? There's a lot of things to think about that. Those are the four I would do. What are the events? How diverse is the membership? What can I learn? And then could I advance within that membership? Could I sit on a committee or a board with that membership? That's really helpful. Thank you. To learn more or to follow Julie, you can check out her website, Julie Brown BD. So J U L I E B R O W N B as in boy, D as in dog.com. Or you can follow her on Instagram at Julie Brown

underscore BD. And then you can always buy her book, This Shit Works on Amazon, or check out her newly released podcast, also titled This Shit Works on any of the podcast platforms that are out there. If you want to dig in more, learn more about networking and relationship building. Julie, thank you so much. I wrote down so many notes and I actually feel better about networking right now than I did 31 minutes ago. So I really, really appreciate your insight and your tips and your energy. Oh, thank you. Everybody can do this.

It's not rocket science. It's just humans. I always say 100% of your connections are going to be humans. So let's just make it a human connection. And remember, we're all in this together. I love it. Let me close this out by saying, while I may still have a slight allergic reaction to the word networking, I can absolutely get behind relationship building and creating and keeping

connections, listening and advocating for other people's businesses and their amazing work, and seeing how I might be able to help people or help the people they know. Honestly, as women, many of us are great at these things, and they come naturally. Relationship building, gut feeling, authentic conversation, listening, empathy, all those things. And we don't give ourselves enough credit. So I know it's crazy times, but I loved what Julie said. A hundred percent of our potential clients are people, and we will always benefit from meeting new people. So join some organizations, reach out to some people,

have some mutual connections, help set that up, whatever it takes. Let's all, myself included, get out there and start meeting some new people. And in the illustrious words of our guest, Julie Brown, this shit works.

So go get out there or get on some Zoom calls and let's meet some people. And this is Woman's Work. So go get out there or get on some Zoom calls and let's meet some people. And this is Woman's Work.