This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 038 / The Luxury of Being Organized with Danielle Pezet

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

In this episode, I welcome guest Danielle Pezet - Professional Organizer, owner of “the most put together home” I’ve ever seen, and my little sister, to teach us some practical, functional ways we can organize our spaces. We’ll cover all sorts of tips for creating an organized life, and I’ll be posting pictures and examples on Instagram @nicolemkalil Organization creates time and space to do what you love, to chase your dreams, to love where you live, and to not go it alone...now that’s Woman’s Work To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. Organization is all about how you function. If your space is working properly for you, it's really easy to maintain. I am Nicole Kalil, and on this episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk about the luxury of being organized. I've asked Danielle Pizzette, professional organizer, owner of the most put-together home I've ever seen, and my little sister to join us today to teach us some tips, tricks, and practical, functional ways we can get our shit together. Side note, I've never actually called my sister by her real name, favoring crazy nicknames our whole life like Doodle, Manch, Danily, as some examples. So I was obviously thrilled when JJ started calling her Auntie Dudu.

And basically, I'm telling you this so you're prepared when I call her anything and everything but Danielle. Okay, Dudu, thank you so much for joining us and for coming to put together my kitchen, pantry, closets, bathrooms, etc. Every time I've moved. And since you can't come into all of our homes, and I've probably overused your generosity in coming to mine, teach us your ways, oh organized one. I'm going to start by asking, do you think your organization is a skill you learned? Or was it mom's German need for order and efficiency that had you be so practically organized? I would say it is, like most things, a combination of both. I think naturally, I definitely have mom's kind of need for order. I gravitate towards things that are logical, make sense, are functional. My brain definitely works that way naturally. But ironically, I would say

it's also a learned habit. And ironically being that I'm actually incredibly forgetful. I lose things all the time, which I got from dad. So I would say my organization has actually stemmed a lot from overcompensating that weakness. And I say weakness with air quotes. At a young age, I remember mom... So I certainly organized my Barbie's doll clothes at age seven, which is kind of an odd and I would say points to the nature of it. But I would also forget things and lose things. And I remember really young mom showing me how to make lists. So I didn't forget things and that things needed to be put away in their homes as a way for me to not lose it. I could find it the next time I was looking for it.

Um, and I just practiced that day in and day out again, from a place of not liking that I lost things. And I think that habitual, that habit, that daily practice is what kind of ingrained it probably to the professional level that it is now. I like to think that it was the first time actually in my life where I recognized something that about myself that maybe didn't work. Yeah. And that you're, it's not that where it ends that you can actually come up with a solution and figure out, maybe not, I figured out how to make it work for me, but at the very least that

it didn't hold me back. I would guess a lot of, you know, nutritionist or personal trainers were that way. They were in a place where they didn't like something about themselves and started learning on how to come up with a solution and then really leaned into it and ended up becoming a strength of theirs. Yeah. So there's a good point in that, that I've talked to with a handful of guests is sometimes our weaknesses or failures or hard times or, you know, the worst things can often create the best. You know, my obsession with confidence stems very much from that period in my twenties where, you know, I felt anything but. Yeah, exactly. So that's, I would say my, my level of organization, it's naturally there, but it is at the level it's at. It's become a strength of mine actually to compensate for weakness. Yeah. Yeah. And I can attest to this weakness lives in our family. Like my dad forgets

everything. Like not only like forgets things, but like, for example, this morning he showed up at my house when he was supposed to go to yours and was so confused by it. And then when he left, he left all of the stuff he'd brought with him. So, you know, and then even Y.E. our brother, um, has that forgetfulness thing. And I think we, we had to train him out of it a little bit, right? Yep. Absolutely. Okay. So, um, one of the things I love about your approach to organization and when you were running your company is that the idea of being organized is a luxury that it actually, you know, because I think sometimes people think of organization, they think of rigidity, they think of being boring and all of that. And you found, I know I found as well, that being organized actually creates comfort and freedom, which is why you call it the luxury of being organized.

So talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I know personally, and I think it's held true with most people I talk with, is if there is chaos in your physical space, that makes your mental space feel chaotic as well. I always like to think, or I always think of organizing and what I do for clients is, you know, when somebody walks into their space and their natural reaction is to kind of breathe in, in a sense of overwhelm and panic and chaos. When you're organized, when you walk into a space, it should be relaxed.

I got a handle on this. I know where things are. Things are functional. Yeah. That exhale, right? That exhale, exactly. So I know that's certainly true for me. And I think that's kind of the service that an organizer provides or the experience or the luxury of being organized. So I've heard you say several times as it relates to actually doing the organizing that the process is the same regardless of what it is you're organizing. So whether it be a junk drawer, a garage, a kitchen, a closet, you sort of approach it in the same way. Share with us that strategy, that approach.

Yeah, it's really an organizing process. And to your point, it doesn't matter what space you're organizing. It's the same step. So specifically the process, you know, step one is always to sort and organize. So you're pulling out everything from that space. If you're doing a junk drawer, you're doing your closet, a garage or a kitchen. I want everything to be pulled out. I am putting them in piles like items together. So give us an example of, so I get the pulling everything out. Yep. I've heard you say this. Why do you pull everything out versus? Yes. So the reason why

you would pull everything out first is it's a very different decision-making process to walk in your closet and go, hmm, what do I want to get rid of today? You're probably, the end result is not going to be as successful as if you pull everything out, sort and organize it first,

and then make a conscious decision of what goes back in. It's about keeping, not inherently just what you're getting rid of. So when you pull everything out, you sort and organize it like items together. So in a closet, you're putting, you know, jeans together, tops together and seasonal items together in a garage, you know, camping, sports, holiday, kitchen, your cooking, your prep, your serving together. This is also the opportunity to have the realization that, oh my gosh, I didn't realize I had eight pairs of scissors until I put all of these items together. So pulling it all out,

sorting and organizing it is step one. Once you have everything out, you kind of evaluate. I literally start at one end of the piles and go through and determine what I'm going to edit or get out. So what can you donate and what are you going to keep? Yep. So that's step two. And I say donate specifically. There's also, you know, should be a recycle pile and a trash pile. And then once you have identified what you're going to keep, you're coming up with a plan strategy and you're going to execute on it. So you're looking at that stuff and asking yourself, how often do I access this? Or how often do I use this? You know, seasonal would be a good thing in a closet where I need this, but I don't

need it all the time. Maybe it needs to live in a different space or be stored in a different way. If it's something you use all the time, it should be front and center. So something that, for example, in a closet that I see often are, you know, I want to keep it, but I don't use it regularly. Maybe it's not the size I currently am, but I seem to fluctuate. It's something I spent a lot of money on and not really sure I'm ready to part with it. So those items, I think putting those together, and if you have the luxury of having another closet, setting them aside and pulling them in when you need them, I think is a great way that it's not using prime real estate front and center in your closet, but you still have access to it if you want to. And then once

you know, you know, so based on your usability or your frequency of using your items, that's how you decide where it's going to live in this space. And then you can also decide, oh, I need a bin for these items. This is how big the bin I need. And then when you're going to the container store, you're a little more strategic and not spending hundreds of dollars on bins that you think are going to be little fairies that somehow organize you for you. Right. Yeah. Do you own stock in the container store? Because it is amazing. Okay. So using a closet as an example, we take everything out. We're basically sorting in the, what do I want to get rid of? What do I want to keep? And then in the keep pile, it's like, what do I use the most? And maybe thinking a little bit, I know you've done this with Jay and I, is like the functionality of it. Like how do you get dressed? Or I mean,

if you're in the kitchen, how do you cook? Or like the entryway when you come in, what do you do when you come in? And then thinking about those things for that prime real estate or the front and center. Right. Absolutely. How you function, you know, organization is all about how you function. Um, if it is, if your space is working properly for you, it's really easy to maintain. Um, and so taking a moment of stepping back of how do I live in this space? How do I use this space? A good red flag is look around where your piles, something is not working from an, or that's your big, you know, uh, there's something to address there. Um, and just kind of realizing through

the flow of your day, um, what's kind of, what are you getting tripped up on? Where are your piles? What would be, um, what are you using frequently? What needs a home? What doesn't seem to have a home? What are you constantly looking for? Constantly looking for all that. Everything in your home should have a home or it doesn't deserve to be in your home. And that creates, I think, a lot of ease throughout your day. Yeah. And the not being able to find things or not knowing where things go, you know, it's such a time waster, right? Certainly. Yeah. Yes. I think I once read that people spend three months of their life looking for things. Oh my gosh. So yes, it eliminates a lot of that wasted time and stress and kind of panic and being late for things. It also is very expensive to be unorganized. You can imagine, you know, if you went to the grocery store and didn't realize what you had, going

there, having a plan, you end up spending money. You know, you have eight scissors. It's probably not a good use of your money, right? So it can certainly be expensive, but I think it's really just mental health. Yeah. Yeah. How you go through your day and the challenges and the hiccups that you can prevent. Yeah. And our household, it's salad dressings. We have 418 salad dressings because I think Jay just, you know, thinks we need it or doesn't want to find out that we, you know, don't have it or something like that. But there's always some version of that, right? Where you're spending money and you end up throwing out and not only you're wasting time and energy and

efficiency, but finances as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So back to the closet, because I know this was a big one for me. Some things are really obvious to donate. Some things are really obvious to keep. And you mentioned a few reasons why we might want to hold on to things fluctuating weight. That actually makes sense to me. Seasonal, that totally makes sense. But you mentioned, you know, I've spent a lot of money on this, or maybe there's like a sentimental value. Like I wore this dress 18 years ago, and I swear to God, I'm going to get back into it one day, even though it's totally out of fashion. And even if you could fit into it, you'd look very strange, whatever the case may be. Yeah. So what are maybe some tips or tricks, um, around that pile though? Like I'm holding onto it, but I'm not sure why.

Yeah. Uncertain pile. Uh, I think it depends on why you're holding onto it. If you're holding onto it because you spent a lot of money on it, get rid of it. You don't get your, you don't get a refund by keeping it in your closet. It just repeatedly reminds you of the painful purchase. Originally, you're just making yourself feel guilty over and over. So, you know, come to terms with it, make your peace with it, say goodbye to it. Sell it. Sell it. Yes, absolutely. Sell it. That's going to be much more valuable than holding onto it. If it's something you're just not sure you're convinced you're going to use it

one day, it depends on what it is, but putting it in a bin with a tape around it with a date so that when you come across it again and put it in a separate closet somewhere else, and when you come across it again in a year and you realize you never opened that box for a year, it's time to get rid of it. Or, you know, a trick with hangers is in your closet, have them face the opposite way than you would naturally hang a hanger. And then when you use it, you put it in correctly at the end of a season or at the end of the year, you can look at all the items you never, ever touched. And that's a good place to start as well. Personally, my favorite time to get rid of clothes specifically, that was actually when I get something new. So if I get a new sweater, I identify a sweater I want to get rid of. It's also the easiest

time because you have this new fabulous sweater. Why would, you know, all your other stuff starts looking a little shabby in that moment. And you're sort of embarrassed you've been wearing it. Yes, exactly. And so it forces you, you know, to get rid of it. One thing I didn't mention on kind of the process, you know, the maintenance of it, I think is a big part of it. Once you're organized, you get yourself to an organized place. There's also kind of daily, you can take that one extra step to put things, something back where, where it originally, you know, went, I think with, you know, families and stuff to giving them a tour of the new space and where things go, I think is really helpful to make sure everybody, you know, helps and supports

and maintaining. And they're not, you know, just because you decided this is where the scissors live, let everybody else know that's where they live. Yeah. Or maybe if possible, include them in the process. Absolutely. If you can, if you're going to organize somebody else's space, you certainly need to have their permission and ideally their engagement in what they don't want and do want. They'll have more buy-in. You're definitely going to have more success. You're going to have more success on the back end with the maintenance of it because they understand it. It makes sense. They're answering the questions. They understand why things were put where they were put and that that's where it goes. If it if it's a shared space, um, and there's a lot of hands,

this may be more of like a work or public space, but, um, or pantry labels are always a good, good idea there. Oh my gosh. You found the coolest labels ever share with us those. Yeah. So labels that you can actually erase, you use a Sharpie and you erase them. So you're not always scrambling for a label maker or, you know, something that peels off. It's, you know, I use them on Tupperware, for example, like go in the dishwasher and I can just erase, which sounds crazy, but erase the Sharpie and rewrite something new. So, um, that's my favorite label in the world, but, um, where do we find such magical container store is where you get all of the things.

Yeah. And you can have a lot of fun with, you know, labels in general, depending on the space. But I think getting buy-in and then definitely, no matter what, doing a tour of the space with your family will ensure that we'll maintain a little bit better. And I think what's important to acknowledge is when I say maintain and kind of my definition of organizing, isn't that it's perfect all the time. Um, that's unrealistic. That's not life, right? You don't, it's not a Pinterest picture. Yeah, absolutely. My definition of being organized is that everything in my home has a place, has a home, um, and that I should be able to clean up quickly

and make it look like Pinterest within 10, 15 minutes. It's not this weekend event, right? Or where you're shoving a bunch of crap in the closet because people are coming over and you don't want them to see it. Exactly. If you're having a hard time, once you've done your first, you know, had things put in place, if you're having a hard time maintaining it, you probably have too much stuff. You know, part of the decision making process of if you want to keep something is if you're willing to maintain it and manage it. You know, if you're going to get your kid thousands and thousands of Legos, you're signing up for, you know, maintaining and at least teaching them to maintain. Maybe they don't need so many of those things. Right. Um, so when you bring something into your home, being prepared

that you're willing to find a home for it and then put it back in the home. Yeah. Um, one thing that I've seen you do that is so obvious now that I've watched it, but I know I would have done it the opposite way is, you know, once you've done your purging and sorting and, and, and now you're putting things back is once you've put things back, then you determine what bins you need and what spaces and measure and what quantity, and then you go to your store, container store, whatever it is. And then you buy what you need. I think a lot of us, myself included, would just go to the store and like walk around the aisles and be like, oh, this bin looks good. Or I think I need something for this. And then you just end up with

a lot more stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we partnered with the container store actually, because they recognized exactly that, that people were coming in and buying a lot and then returning a lot and not really feeling satisfied with the product, but it wasn't the product's fault. It was the organizing process or the lack of in deciding what to buy. So yeah, it's always, you know, sort, get rid of, and then really having a strategy around what you're going to keep, where it's going to go. And then if you need a container, so if, you know, in a kitchen, you have a blender with lots of parts and you decide this is where the blender is going to live because I use it every single day. Now I know I need a bin to contain these things. And this is where the bin is. Now you're measuring,

you know, I need one bin for blender parts and this is the measurements for that bin. And then you can do it. So, um, yeah, it's absolutely in that order. Yep. Um, so you have spent a lot of time organizing some of the nicest and wealthiest homes in the Bay area. Are there any differences or anything that any learnings or realizations you can share with us from doing that? Yeah. I think my biggest takeaway was, you know, so often we feel like, oh, if we just had a bigger home or more space, I would be more organized. And I realized all that does is just to delay all the decisions that you need to make about getting rid of things. You know, you just hold onto things longer because you have more space. You know, there's of course

a threshold within that, but that was probably one of my biggest takeaways is, you know, while having a smaller space can maybe be a little more challenging because you have to get rid of things all the time. That's awesome. It forces you, you have a home that's filled with things you actually need and want versus having closets full of things that you don't need, but you're just avoiding. Right. Yeah. It's like the, in a small space, when I lived in an apartment, I had a junk drawer and then that junk drawer became over time with a bigger home, a junk room. Right. And so, and the same concept holds true. I know we both worked in financial planning in the past.

The same holds true when people say, I would save more if I made more. And it's like, no, it's a discipline. It's a habit. It's a philosophy or a belief that we all have the opportunity to learn so that as we get more, get bigger or whatever, that we have something to fall back on, right? Yep, absolutely. All of this is great on our own, if left to our own devices, right? But typically we're organizing spaces that involve more than just one person.

Yep. What have you learned about organizing for families? A lot, actually. I organized for eight years prior to having a kid of my own and less years, but prior to having my husband, also known as my adult roommate. And so, yeah, I think I'm just starting to execute on some of the things I learned with a kid since my son's only a year and a half, but a lot of it has actually held true. So one of the biggest takeaways that I had from working with families with kids was the constant feedback I got after we were done at how much more engaged kids were in their play and entertainment, you know, at home. Once we'd gotten rid of, you know, half of their stuff and organized it.

I think it kind of makes sense. I don't think anybody's, if you had a craft closet and you opened it and there was stuff everywhere, you wouldn't be, you would just close it. Right. If you're going to cook and you open a pantry and it's a hot mess, you're not inspired. You're overwhelmed. You close it. It's true for kiddos too. Um, so this realization that less really is more for them. I think we know that as parents, but for some reason, when it comes to toys, it's more is more. Yeah. And I don't think that's true. I think if you give them a few options, um, you know, and they get to have focused play, it also encourages them, you know, to be more, uh, imaginative with, with their play.

And like I said, focused on it, I think that supports them. I think they're more satisfied and enjoy the experience much more than walking into a playroom with 1000 options with every piece in every direction and almost not even knowing where to start. And so that was, was one is less is more. It also, that realization has, um, I guess inspired me to set up Luke's play space a little bit, maybe different than I would have thought. So he has a bin in each area that he spends time of items that for me are really easy to put away. And then he usually has, you know, he has other toys, but those are put with smaller pieces. Those are put away and I kind of choose when I'm ready to take those out.

It allows for things to stay together. It allows for him to have focus play. It's manageable for me to put away. It also allows me to help teach him how to put things away. So if we're going to play Legos, we're going to pull out the Lego bin, he's going to play, and then we're going to put it all the way at the end. Yeah. Um, so that is definitely one of the, um, biggest ones. And I can attest to that. There are two big baskets underneath the ottoman and like the living or family room area there is a basket you know in the little sitting room there's about there are little baskets everywhere that luke can pull out whenever he wants and play with those things but if you need

to clean up it's just sweep it all up throw it back in the basket and you're done yeah um which i so wish i would have done you know we did the the stereotypical like jj had a play area in our kitchen slash family room space and it just when i walked in and saw it was like oh and to your point jj played in it after we cleaned up, but at some point it got, and then she would sort of avoid it too. So, yep. And it's, it's very obvious with kiddos. So being able to manage it, I think is, you know, the key. And I think, um, you know, with your kiddos, another, my second takeaway with working with families with kids was how often parents would say, oh, I'm just so tired of cleaning this up or I hate this toy. You're the boss of it, right? So if this kitchen ends up always being kind of a hot mess, maybe there's too many things.

Take half of it away. Then it's easier to maintain. Then it's easier to organize. And it will definitely encourage them to play with it better and more often. So get rid of things. I mean, even before that, decide what comes in. If you have too many Legos, don't let any more in. Maybe it's putting them in a bin and putting them in the closet and reintroducing them at a later date. So if you're not able to manage your kiddos' toys, edit, bring it down, make it so

that you can, they can play and you can easily get it back to square one. It'll save your sanity and it's better for them as well. And on that note, you've told me this is to put things away. And if she doesn't notice or miss them, you know, cause sometimes I worry, like if I got rid of this, would she like have a major meltdown or something like that? But 9.9 times out of 10, she doesn't ever notice or bring that thing back up again. If you need to edit your kiddos' toys, honestly do it while they're away. You see them play. What do they not play with?

Are they going to notice that half of their Legos are gone or maybe some of their kitchen stuff is gone? Put it all in a bin and put it away. So certainly if they all of a sudden are asking for that one thing that you didn't realize was their favorite of all of the toys, you can go grab it. But, you know, after a month, if they've never, a couple of weeks, they have not mentioned it, you know, that's kind of your green light to get rid of it. Yeah. I mean, and I think you'll see that they play, they're much more engaged in their toy. I mean, and I think you'll see that they play, they're much more engaged in their toy room. Well, and I think we both agree that kids, our kids, we'll speak for ours, just automatically have too much stuff because family members,

grandparents, everybody's buying them things, whether it be for holidays or birthdays or whatever. So even with the best of intentions, they end up with too much or they go. My least favorite thing is the goodie bags at birthday parties. It's crap. And she comes back and it's like, oh, my God. Oh, so. And that's where you that click in of like, do I want to manage this? Yeah. These are a lot of little things that really serve no purpose. Yeah. Don't even, that should never have a home. It should be, the home should be out of your home. Right. And deciding that before it's another little thing that's cluttering up your space that you don't know where to go and it's not supporting her and her playtime. The next thing I would say I've

learned from working with families is prepping for incoming stuff. So I actually learned this trick from you, but I told it to everybody was, if you know you're about to have an influx of new gifts because of a birthday or holiday, prepare, make it part of the process for your littles. You know, okay, it's your birthday coming up this weekend. As a part of that, here's what we do. They're going to, whatever you tell them is normal is normal. So, you know, I know you with JJ, which is absolutely something that I'm going to do with Luke is, you know, before Christmas, part of the Christmas routine and tradition is, you know, having a Santa sack that you fill with toys that you're now willing to give up and donate to another kiddo who's in need. And that frees up the room for your new stuff. It's, they go hand in hand. You don't really get the new stuff until you get rid of the old stuff. And that gives them, you know, it teaches them,

it allows them to be a part of the process, takes the stress off of you. They're more engaged and willing to get rid of these things because, and then you're prepared and not overwhelmed with the new things coming. Yeah. And it's been interesting to watch each year her evolve with that i remember there was one year maybe she was three years old where she did not want to put anything in the santa bag and we always do however many items is how old she is so like she's seven now she'll have to pick seven items they go into the santa sack we leave it by the chimney on Christmas Eve and Santa comes and takes it away and bring, brings it to other kids. Um, and then she gets her new stuff behind the scenes. Obviously I, I donate those things. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that is just a

fantastic way to help you manage, um, your kiddo stuff. So, you know, preparing for what's coming in and then also preparing for things that should go out. So I, there will never be a day where Luke doesn't have a donate bin in his closet. You know, that's, I put on a pair of pants and he's grown out of them. That's not going back in the drawer. That's like putting an empty milk carton in the refrigerator. It's going in the donate bin and if you have somebody who's you know your gets your hand-me-downs regularly put a label on it with the age and the size and when it's filled you put the lid on and you pass it on to the next person they'll love you forever that way um so being prepared for you know the things that are

going to go out and having a donate toy bin. When you notice this one thing hasn't been used, stick it in there and see if it never gets asked for again. And then when it's filled, you're taking it out. Yep. And you had told me this, and we've done this for birthdays and holidays too, is the influx of stuff is so much putting it up in the closet, all of it, and then bringing out an item or two at a time. And like, I can remember one birthday, I was pulling things out like four months after her birthday, but at least she engaged and enjoyed which with each of her gifts, as opposed to. Yeah. Which is just another perfect example of when they get too much, there's too many options. They jump from one thing to the other. So that doesn't really, you know, it doesn't support their longer, getting a longer attention span or being creative. There's not depth to their play. It's just touching a lot of things from one to the next. Um, so I think again, going back to that less is more and it's awesome because it

supports your mental health and sanity of less to manage easier to put away. Um, which is at the end of the day, the most important thing I think. Yeah. Okay. So that's great with kids. Now talk about a partners, right? Um, now, you know, not every woman is organized and every man is disorganized. So I get that. But if your partner is not the most organized, how do you help them along? Yeah. Something that was kind of interesting, a realization I had working with, you know, so many of our clients were women or at least the ones, their families, but were the ones taking the lead. And this is something we needed. It's driving me crazy. They were the ones getting that kind of anxious response to their clutter and their disorganization. It really wasn't working

for them. I noticed that men, while unorganized, it bothers them less. They have more of a blind eye to it. They can live in it much more comfortably than women. Obviously, that's not true across the board, but it was definitely a theme that I noticed. So, yeah, men tend to, you know, leave things around. For me, it's Pat's shoes. The scissors were always a big one that's never, ever found their way back home. And it's definitely something that, you know, it's a little bit of coaching and, you know, exercising the habit over and over. I've learned

my approach, while I may not necessarily recommend it, but it works for us. And I noticed, you know, I don't have to do this rarely ever anymore. But when we first moved in together, when his shoes were in the middle of the hall, you know, I could just put it away and not say anything. I could nag him, make him do it. And I kind of found an odd meet in the middle where, you know, I'd see the shoes and I would ask him, hey, Pat, are your shoes in the middle of the hall for any particular reason? Or can I put them away for you? And it was kind of my funny, sarcastic way of acknowledging,

like, why are you shoes in the middle of the floor? Right. And maybe there is a purpose. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Exactly. And it could point it out while not forcing him to do it and also not doing it without acknowledging like, hey, I'm doing this. Yeah. And it becomes really obvious after the 10th time, you know, that you're, Hey, I'm doing this. Yeah. And it becomes really obvious after the 10th time, you know, that you're, you're acknowledging I'm putting your shoes and away from you and that's our way for you. It's also a way of acknowledging, Hey, I'm doing this for you. It's not my job. It's not my job to pick up after you. I'm going to do it, but, um, this should make you feel a little uncomfortable that I'm picking up after you. And after so many times, you know, I can,

I can have a perfect visual of Pat using the scissors and you doing his little thing and then going to put them back on top of the counter instead of the drawer. And I could literally see him hearing my voice in the back of, and kind of like rolling his eyes and putting them away. It's like, okay, that was annoying enough that I got him to accomplish it. I think what's important or accomplish what I was trying to, where he got in the habit of putting things away. I think it's also important to recognize your level of organization and, or your, you know, goal in that.

And, you know, that taking some ownership of it being important to you and maybe not to them. So in my family or with my relationship, I like the bed to be made every day. I, this is going to sound crazy. I have used to come home from work and if the bed wasn't made, I would make it before I got into it. You know, at the end of the day, I couldn't even focus without my, you know, certain things being put put um back in its place but that wasn't important to pat and instead of and recognizing you know that's a fair thing that's not important to him it's important to me and so i took ownership of it i pat doesn't have to make the bed i make

the bed it was not a fight i was willing to make his shoes in the middle of the hallway when i come home definitely a battle i was willing to have. Yeah. Cause clearly a hazard. And I think setting them up. So just deciding to be organized also, you know, you have to have a, um, a plan in place or a, your home needs to be set up to be organized. Right. So, um, recognizing how you function and how your, your partner functions and creating the space to have them work for them. So everything should have a home. You have home, you know, if he has shoes and he walks in the door and there's nowhere to put shoes and then I'm annoyed that the shoes are in the middle. Right. There's two sides of that. So creating our space to meet our needs and how we function, how we live day to day is part of that.

So recognizing that. And to that point, right when you walk in the door, you guys walk in from the garage, there is a shoe bin, which, you know, Pat puts his shoes in. When you came and did Jay's closet, I think, you know, certainly Jay is less organized than I am, but he so enjoyed his closet looking a certain way and being able to find things and get dressed in an efficient way. Like he maintained it, I think because while he might've naturally turned a blind eye, he didn't realize how much he liked it. Absolutely. Yeah. Buyer beware. You may create an organizing monster. If you, you know, set up your space and their space that way, they will become addicted to it. Absolutely. I see that in Pat.

Absolutely. The case with him is now he's used to living in an unorganized space. And when I'm gone, he realizes how nice it is. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Actually, you were gone for a short weekend and he didn't destroy the house or anything like it still looked, you know, so obviously he appreciates it and enjoys it as well. All right. Well, um, you can't follow Danielle on social media because she's not on it, which I admire so much, but I will be sharing some pictures that she didn't know I've been taking of her home on regular days on my Instagram at Nicole M. Khalil. So we'll pass on some additional tips that way. Dudu, thank you so much for joining me. I love you.

You're welcome. And let's finish with this. Whether it's an organized home or an ideal schedule or a to-do list or a system for working efficiently or creating an organized life, it creates freedom and comfort. Of course, like anything, when taken too far, it can become problematic. But I hope our conversation today has you thinking about some ways that you can feel the luxury of being organized as we head into a new year. And just in case anyone is confused or concerned about my beliefs on this, having an organized home is not just woman's work. It's people work or adult work.

So men should absolutely listen to this too. Setting up a functional environment, expecting your kids to put their shit where it goes and your partners too, creating homes for the things that you love, getting rid of the things that you don't need. These are all tips for creating an organized life. Creating time and space to do what you love, to chase your dreams, to love where you live

and to not go it alone. Now that's a woman's work.