This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 042 / Disrupting The Status Quo with Penny Phillips

Episode Date: January 20, 2021

Are you a disruptor? Are you someone who doesn’t allow themselves to be constrained by working within the realm of what’s already been done? My guest today is doing just that. In this episode, I welcome Penny Phillips - Founder and CEO of Thrivos Consulting, who is taking on an industry that is very old and very set in their ways. Penny shares with us her experience early on in her career and the decisions she made that helped her to step out of what's traditionally accepted, and solve problems in a totally new way. Who do you want to be? What do you want to be known for? Go be that person. Go chase those dreams. YOU get to decide. Being the author of your own story...that is the truest definition of Woman’s Work. To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. Things don't need to continue to be done the way they've always been done. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of This is Woman's Work. I'm Nicole Kalil, your host, and a woman on a mission to disrupt all the stereotypes and expectations we have about what it looks and feels like to be a woman, especially a working woman. I think for me, this mission stemmed from constantly feeling like I'm different and wanted different things than what I saw or believed was expected of me as a woman. Have you ever played the morbid game of what would people say about me when I die? And not the high school dramatic version where everybody's sobbing and can't go on

and they have a holiday they name after you, but the somewhat more acceptable version of who do I really want to be? What do I stand for so clearly that people can't help but describe you in that way? Maybe it's just me that does that. I promise this isn't a cry for help. I'm just saying that I've never wanted to be described as nice, sweet, bubbly, polite, or even hot or cute or gorgeous. None of those things make my top 10 list. I hope people would use words like kind, honest, ambitious, strong, fierce, relentless. And a word I'm working on because I love the courage, confidence, and strength it would take to earn this descriptor is disruptor. Someone who doesn't allow themselves to be constrained by working

within the realm of what's already been done or the status quo. Someone who challenges how it's always been and steps out of what's traditionally accepted and solves problems in a totally new way. Now that's a descriptor that excites me. So I invited someone I've witnessed and would describe as a disruptor to join us today. Penny Phillips, founder and CEO of Thrivos Consulting is taking on the very old and very set in their ways industry of financial services. Penny, thank you so much for joining us today. I am so excited about this conversation. I am so, first of all, that is the best podcast intro I've ever heard. So I am like sitting here so fired up and then realizing, oh, you're interviewing me. So good. I'm glad. Well,

we'll take you fired up. I'm guessing that's a big part of being a disruptor. So I want to start by asking that question based on your experience. What does it take from you to be a disruptor and such an old, such a big, such a powerful industry like financial services? You know, I think about this a lot, Nicole. My family is from Greece. I'm first generation American. The idea of a woman, you know, going off and working in big business was, you know, unheard of. And so I remember before entering the financial services industry, my parents being, you know, panicked that, you know, when are you going to get married and, and, you know, find a husband and, you know, you're, you you know, when are you going to get married and, you know, find a husband

and, you know, you're going to work in Manhattan in these, you know, big organizations. And for me, I just sort of felt compelled to have impact in a big way. And so I entered into the financial services industry, you know, already prepping myself for, for something greater. For me, Nicole, it's, it's all about the fact that things don't need to continue to be done the way they've always been done. You know, maybe, maybe I have a little bit of an authority issue, but I think, you know, going into the business, that was one of the first things I realized in financial services. I was constantly questioning, like, why are we doing things this way?

Is there a reason other than we've been doing it for 30 years? And that was what I felt at my first job in financial services. And I've sort of been using that question to propel me ever since. And so that's sort of it. It's always about why are we still doing it this way? Does this make sense? Are we allowing other voices to emerge other than the voices that have been prevalent over the past 30 years? And that's been what I've been obsessed with since I entered the business. I can relate so much to what you shared about being first generation American. My dad is from Mexico, so very similar sort of expectations or confusion about why I would

want to go so big professionally. Which leads me to my question. Do you think being a woman played any part as you're working in these big, you know, financial services companies to you questioning, does this really work for me? Or, you know, does this really work? Or why has it always been done this way? Does your gender play a part in any of that? It's a good question. I, you know, I'll be honest, Nicole, I have faced less sexism in the business than I have ageism. For me, it was, that was the, the underlying theme. It was always, and maybe to some extent that I was a, you know, you know, a female in a male dominated space, but I felt it was more, you know, you know, a female and a male dominated space, but I, I felt it was more,

you know, you're, you're so young, you haven't experienced, you know, the 2008, or you weren't around for, you know, in the 1970s or eighties, how could you possibly have, you know, a solution that would make sense, or how could you possibly understand? I didn't like that. I didn't like that rhetoric. I didn't like getting that response. And so it was much more about that. I think from a young age and from the time I entered into the business, I started at an asset management company in third-party distribution, so traditional wholesaling. And for me, it was, I think people underestimated me far more because I was younger at the time, that at some point, you know, because you kind of think, well, you know, I've been doing this for 10 years, 12 years, 15 years. I know, I know better. I put in air quotes, right.

And then you sort of have the dismissive. Well, you don't know what you don't know and all of that. And obviously experience has its value, but being young and having fresh eyes has its value too, right? Completely. And keep in mind, and I think this is, this isn't unique to my story. I think a lot of children of immigrant parents have this story. I come from a family where nobody, you know, worked in big business. It was, you know, everybody was an entrepreneur, you know, that came to the States and either opened a restaurant or, you know, a diner.

And so I come from a family to some extent of, of entrepreneurs. For me going into the business, the first thing I realized was I'm different because I don't have, you know, an Ivy League education. And I, you know, I grew up, went to public school my whole life, had no connections to the financial services industry. And so instead of trying to sort of assimilate into the group that I had joined, I doubled down on being different and showing that you can have all these things that don't traditionally make up a successful CEO in financial services and still be a successful CEO. And when people ask me, well, where did you get that sort of oomph? Because I was always combating somebody or arguing with someone or, you know, going against the rules. And I always

bring it back to my family. You know, I mean, there's no other way to explain why I am the way that, why I am the way I am, other than I had the support of my parents who always said, you know, well, first it was, we don't, we don't love that you're, you know, choosing to, to put the career first. But then once they knew I was serious about really pursuing my goals in this business, it was do whatever you need to do. And we always have your back. And that was really helpful to me. Yeah. I can relate to that as well. I like that you talk about using your differences to your advantage. I think, you know, if we were to use the word assimilate, that's, we often try to look and operate the same and blend in and, you know, become part of the culture, which, you know, has some upside in some ways, but there's also

the opportunity to be different and being different can be attractive. Yeah. And I, you know, I remember now you're making me think of sort of those early days and I didn't originally when I was started in this business, I never thought I would leave the big corporate firms and go and start my own business. I always thought I'd just simply be a disruptor who people either loved or hated within these big companies for my whole career. And so I'm happy that it ended with me really being an entrepreneur. But I remember early on, within the first year, year and a half, there were a couple of things that I noticed and it, it propelled me to, like I said earlier, double down on those differences. Like I didn't want to be part of the status quo because here's what I noticed. Number one, I'm like, God, are we

having this meeting because this person wants to hear him or herself talk, or because this is really critical for us to have a meeting about. Secondly, I would, there was just a rampant nepotism in many of the places I worked and sort of asking myself, well, does this person really deserve to be on this pathway? Or are we overlooking somebody who maybe doesn't have like the traditional resume. And so these themes were emerging over and over and over. And I realized, you know what, here's another one. I would hear somebody who was maybe younger or maybe a female sometimes suggest something in a meeting to have it completely shot down or overlooked. And then to watch the, I hate to say it, but you know, middle-aged white male, you know, executive come in and see the exact same thing. I remember this specifically

at a meeting with Morgan Stanley. And in my head, I'm thinking, the other person just said this and it's groundbreaking. So why, so it was all these moments where I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And you know, I'm just going to be vocal about my disdain for it. I am laughing over here. Cause I can remember my own moment like that, where you're like, am I in the twilight zone? Like, was I muted when that came out of my mouth, but you all were here and ignored it. And then it's just crazy when that happens, right? It's crazy. And I remember feeling like my blood boil and sometimes it was me who was suggesting

something and, you know, people, people were really shocked. I remember this when I, I think it was maybe 24, 25, I was put in charge of a division within New York life insurance company, um, within one of their subsidiaries. And the number one question I got was, well, well, how do you have the knowledge set to be able to, you know, have a perspective on practice management? And, you know, maybe it's a valid question, but my answer was common sense and, you know, research and, and, you know, having the ability to problem solve. Like these were the skills for me that qualified me having critical thinking skills, high EQ, able to communicate with people,

you know, and, and do I need 30 years of experience to be able to have a, you know, a really good opinion or thought on the advisory business? For me, it was like, no. And so, but I remember my blood boiling in certain meetings and, you know, it was that time where I said, okay, maybe it's time to leave this company or this organization. Yes. So the blood boiling thing, I can feel it. Right. And, and I, I find it easier. I put in air quotes when I am witnessing it happen to somebody else. Cause at the very least I can go, yeah, I love that idea when she said it. Right. Or when that person said, um, but when it's happening to me, it's like, I like, I wish always that I would come up with the thoughts that I think, you know,

two hours later, like if I could go back and say the thoughts that I think, you know, two hours later, like if I could go back and say the right thing at that point in time, right? Totally. And I think we could go on for days about pet peeves, you know, and our experience in financial services or different companies or different industries. It's just the willingness that I admire for you to notice, I don't like this and I'm willing to move on or say my piece or whatever. So talk to us about the courage that that takes. Yeah. You know, I, there's no secret. First of all, I hate the term secret sauce, but there, there really isn't any sort of secret to it. I always think, I always imagined if I ever wrote

a book, the book would be called, you either have it or you don't. And I think some people just have that in them to be a disruptor, to be willing to not be liked by people, to, you know, be willing to, you know, leave an organization. I mean, I talked to a lot of women who are stuck, quote unquote, at a firm that they've been at for X number of years. And the theme when I'm talking to them is always, but this person helped me start my career. Or, you know, I owe so much to my boss, even though I'm being treated horribly, like I also, and for me, I never felt that I never felt I owed, you know, anything was owed to anyone. I didn't think anything was owed to me. But I certainly didn't think I owed any single person, you know, credit for, for, you know, my career. And, and I, you know, I don't think it's a great

thing to maybe share, but I didn't feel sort of an overwhelming attachment to anyone or anything. I felt really committed to fulfillment of this mission. And for me early on, Nicole, it started as just a mission of showing people just how ridiculous some of the rhetoric was in our industry. Like just how silly some of these meetings were, how silly some of the, you know, some of the things that went on within the broker dealer, whatever firm I was with. And then it became something much more than that because I pushed back a little bit and realized, okay, nothing happened to me. Like I'm still here. I'm still being recognized for my work. And so I, maybe I needed that little bit of proof that nothing horrible is going to happen to you up against this. And in some, in some,

some instances it was silly stuff. In some instances, it was really big stuff that I stood up against and, you know, it, it served me well. And so I would say maybe it was always within me, but then getting a little bit of proof that it's going to be okay if you stand up and say something, that's all I needed to just hit the ground running with that attitude. Yeah. And, and I would say I was somebody who did get stuck for a while and I don't know if it was so much loyalty that had me stay and more that I was trying to prove myself. I kind of felt like if I just kept going, that at some point I would get the, you know, the role, the promotion, the opportunities, you know, that I, and then I just got to the point where I was like, I'm banging my head against this wall. And what am I trying to prove and to who?

And that can be the problem. have you found to, because I'm finding this, not always, but as I identify what I don't like and maybe stand up or have those conversations and potentially, you know, alienate myself from some people, but you actually find that you're working towards your people, right? Like, okay, so this person doesn't want to work with me or this person doesn't see it my way. But in, in doing that and filtering those people out, you kind of find your tribe or is that happening with you? It's such a, that's a really great point. And it's reflecting on that comment that ultimately led me, inevitably led me to leaving working for anybody else and starting a business for myself and surrounding myself with the people that I consider to be a tribe. It's such a good point. And I'm flustered because I just maybe had the realization or

sort of memory that no matter where I went or hopped to in the industry, and I was one of those people who I didn't see anything wrong with leaving a company that I wasn't happy with. People disagree with that. But I think there's a reason why people of the prior generation stayed somewhere for 30 years, right? Because there wasn't this feeling that you should go anywhere else. For me, I- Or mobility options that there are today, right? Because there wasn't this, you know, feeling that you should go anywhere else. For me, I- Or mobility options that there are today, right? Exactly. Social media and the

ability to sort of learn about new companies. I never had that. For me, I could always talk my way in an interview around why I left certain places. So I was totally comfortable with that. But the realization at some point that I was chasing a tribe or a group that didn't exist in the big firms, that realization hit me really hard when I was working at one of my prior firms and I was part of a, you know, I was tapped for like a leadership. And here's the irony, by the way, I was like always, you know, arguing with managers or whatever, but I was still sort of tapped for, you know, leadership potential. And I'm in a workshop and we had to do a disc assessment. It was the first time I'd ever done a disc assessment.

And in a room of 25 people, I was the only one who scored as a high D. Everybody else was either an S or a C. I remember this specifically. And it was sort of frowned upon to be a high D. And I remember having this moment of like, oh my God, I may not fit in in any one of these companies. I may have to leave and go do something else entirely. And the more I hung out to that thought, the more I started to meet people and talk to people who felt the same way. And ultimately I did, I did form a tribe, but it was my choice. Like I wasn't going to let anybody in one of these firms mentor me. I often say that I'm not mentorable, I think. Well, as a fellow Heidi, I can, I can again relate. So you mentioned inside your more corporate jobs being loved and hated. You've mentioned kind of standing up and, and, um, you know, challenging authority and all

of these things. How do you handle the naysayers and the haters and the, you know, people who have an opinion about your choices in your life and your work and all that. Yeah. And you can imagine with, with me being, you know, in my early thirties and I look like I'm 17 and, you know, going to market and saying, I'm a, I'm a public speaker and a speaker in the industry and then getting hired and having people say like, how could you don't deserve to be here? And maybe they're not saying that directly to me because I'm pretty, I'm a pretty tough cookie. So I think people, you know, maybe they're thinking it, but they're not going to say it directly to me. I faced a lot of that. I faced,

I faced a lot of people sort of waiting to see whether I can prove that I deserve to be here. More than I've faced people directly saying like, you don't deserve this. And I think the reason is, Nicole, I became obsessed with being technically competent in what I was in my profession. And so I remember early on when I first got into consulting, so sales, I left pretty quickly. And the honest reason is because I didn't, I didn't love it. I felt like there's got to be more than just, you know, pitching a mutual fund to an advisor. For me, it like, I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, I'm not going to make a hundred dials because you tell me you have to make a hundred dials. So anyway, I sort of transitioned into consulting. And for me, that was much more of an interesting discipline. And then when I got

into practice management consulting within financial services, which is such a niche space, or niche space, whatever, whatever the term. I'm with you. I don't know how you say it either. I'll take it either way. So niche sounds good to me, but I said, well, I have to become the best practice management consultant. Like I have to know what I'm talking about. And so, and then I just became obsessed with understanding the history of sort of the advisory business model and, and understanding P&Ls and really, really sort of delving into, you know, what, what, what I knew I was going to do for the rest of my career. And I remember thinking to myself, if the only way I'm not going to be able to, you know, shut down the critics by simply

showing up, I have to, the minute I open my mouth to speak or start a presentation, people have to know I'm legitimate. And so it just, it became like, I say it now to advisors all the time and, and, um, you know, people broadly in the industry, there's nothing that you can ask me about what I work in the business that I'm in that I won't know the answer to. There's nothing. And I'm very, very confident about that. So I like that you used the word confident at the end there, because what I'm observing is the, you know, dual confidence and competence being combined together as the perfect storm for, and I think in my research, women sometimes too heavily rotate on the competence

side. And I think it's really important that both sounds like confidence you sort of had all along from your parents and growing up, and then you layer zoned in on the competence part, but one without the other can not have the same effect. Would you agree? Completely. And I think there's both sides of it too. And I see this, you know, by the way, as a female entrepreneur in this business, I still battle with imposter syndrome every single day. I think many of us do and men too, but, but for me, it is the balance of that. And I've spent a tremendous amount of time, especially as a speaker, you can relate to this, practicing the way I communicate, the inflection point, the way I pause on things to draw people

in and not create the illusion of, but be able to articulate confidence in the way I speak. I take my craft very, very seriously, and that has helped build my confidence. But I agree. I think we see both sides of the spectrum. There's really, there's really, really smart women, incredibly smart, confident women who don't have the confidence to be able to go and say, Hey, I'm really good at this. And you guys are idiots. I mean, not that you can say that. In a nice and professional way, but I get what you're saying. or we have people who are really confident and there's nothing behind that. I've seen a tremendous amount of that. And I would say borderline like narcissistic personality disorder. So I've seen both sides of the spectrum. You're right. It's, it's the fine sort of marriage of the two. Yeah, I agree completely. And I've witnessed the same. And it's not gender specific at all, but my experience, I've seen more women with the competence, but lack the

confidence. And then they sort of get stuck or they don't go for the big role. And I've seen more men with the confidence that lack the competence, you know, getting all these amazing opportunities and going after. And I'm like, how is this happening? It's what it really fuels me. I mean, even you can hear it in my voice. I'm like getting aggravated because I see, I say it. If you see my LinkedIn posts, I talk about like, if you're in, you know, being featured on wealthmanagement.com every single day or CityWire, you know, every single day, that doesn't mean anything. What does that mean?

It means you have a relationship with the people at these publications. It doesn't indicate that you're smarter than anybody else. And I say this to women. I say this to people all the time. It means nothing. So, you know, unfortunately, we still, I think we're still facing this issue of, if you are, you know, if you're a male in this industry of a certain, you know, demographic, you're, you have instant credibility. And, and it's my mission to show the instances where it means

nothing. And, and I, I've talked to a lot of women who feel like there's no space for them and that upsets me greatly. Yeah, no, I get it. Um, okay. So as a disruptor, you don't need to get people to like you, right? That's not your goal or your role or, or anything like that. In fact, if you're a disruptor, it's inevitable that people won't, maybe not personally, but yeah. But you do need to get people to listen. And again, not every person, but that's part of the role. Are there any tactics or things that you do or say to get people to be open to listening or to hearing you, whether or not they choose to work with you or choose to like you or choose to believe you. But is there anything in that space that you could share with our listeners?

Yeah. When I ultimately decided to go build my own business I remember feeling it was one day where I'm like I am starting I mean I'd been in the business for you know 10 years but I'm like I'm really starting at the bottom I have to get my name out there and the only method the only tactic I could use is, you know, was my voice and, and, you know, being on camera. And I remember thinking to myself, God, how am I going to do this? The one thing I had going for me was I'm a strong communicator. I've made a career out of speaking and facilitating and speaking publicly. And so I practiced a lot, how to get a message out in a short amount of time. And I would always ask myself, you know, what is my objective? What is my objective? Because I never wanted to be speaking for the sake of speaking, wanted to be speaking for a

purpose. And what's happened now is I, I've sort of trained myself, and I do recommend this for people. I've sort of trained myself on how to very quickly disseminate a message, whether it's on a 10-minute Wednesday Wisdom that I do, and I'll talk about that in a second, or sort of a one-minute pitch that I give. Everything is very intentional. This is going to sound silly, but I tend to use words like fundamentally, unequivocally. I use power punchy words a lot because it tends to draw people in and make you think, make them think, you know what you're talking about.

But I sort of practiced all these different skills. I watched a lot of standup comedy. And then I said, you know what, I'm going to do a video series. And I started with my email list within my Gmail at the time. And I sent a 10 minute video, which ultimately became my Wednesday wisdom series, which honestly, Nicole, I would say it's the, it's maybe the single biggest reason why Thrivos became successful. I sent a 10 minute video. It was not

edited. I didn't have this camera before. It was like just talking to my computer on my business building idea for the week and everything. The objective was it has to sound different. It can't be, you got to segment your client. Like it had to be different, right? Direct. And I started sending it out and it quickly grew and grew and grew. And so for me, it was being very clear about what skill I wanted to leverage, learning how to be really powerful in communicating, whether that's in a one hour speech or a 10 minute speech, and then just trying something new and it, and it worked. Mm-hmm. And some things that you said that I'd like to recap or kind of beginning with the end in mind, you know, what's the purpose of this message? What am I trying to accomplish and sort of

weeding out the unnecessary, right. And honing that in, you, you didn't say this word, but it was, it was like screaming in my brain while you were talking as, as really being authentic. Right. Um, and it sounds like taking some risks too, uh, and putting yourself out there. Yep. And I, you know, I always ask myself, what's the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen is that a couple of people watch the video and not that many other. Okay. And if it ended up being that the videos didn't land, believe me, I would have tried something else. I would have tried a podcast. I don't know, but it is, you know, I always think what's the worst

case scenario. And I do give credit to my family and my personal network because now that they've accepted that, you know, I'm a career woman and a business woman, it's the worst case scenario is you still have a family that loves and supports you. And, you know, and that's sort of it. So when you have that, like, support, you can do no wrong. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I often do the rabbit hole, what's the worst that can happen? And it's, you know, even the worst that can happen is usually not that bad. And then usually that worst thing you can come up with never happens. Right. And then I often ask myself, like, what's the best that could happen? That is such a, oh my gosh, I have a quote right here. And I keep it here on purpose.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? And this has followed me to every office, now it's my home office that I've ever been at because that's it. Who says that you can't be successful and achieve everything beyond your wildest dreams? And at this point in my career, if this doesn't work out, I'll be successful at something else.

And I hang on to that thought every day, all day. And you have to. You have to if you really want to get past the bad times, because there are some, especially being an entrepreneur. And you have to, you have to, if you really want to get past the bad times, because there are some, especially being an entrepreneur. And if you want to, you know, skate past the naysayers, you have to have sort of a deep, deep belief in your own ability to create and to be successful. And once you feel that for yourself, and you're not relying others on others to feel that for you, i.e. bosses and leaders, then the sky's the limit. Agreed. Okay. So I feel like we could talk so much more, but for people who want to learn more about your work, the website is Thrivos Consulting. So T-H-R-I-V-O-S consulting.com. Or you can follow

Penny on LinkedIn, Penny Phillips, P-H-I-L-L-I-P-S. And then on Twitter at Thrivos LLC. Penny, tell us a little bit about the second company because, you know, running one company isn't enough work, especially in 2020. But tell us a little bit about this second company you're launching in 2021. Yeah, I'm super, super excited about this. And the quick context is I've been consulting and coaching, you know, advisors and firms for the past 10 years for as sort of, you know, with Thrivo as my company. And, you know, through my work, I've realized that there are a lot of advisors going independent or going RIA or leaving the institution that they're at. And I don't feel like, I feel like many of them leave to go

independent or go RIA and really have no idea what they're doing and feel alone and don't feel like there's anyone who really they can turn to and say, Hey, guess what? I'm really still struggling. And so I'm launching an RIA platform, launching it with four partners, three partners, rather, excuse me. And we're going to be focused on advisors who are leaving the insurance BD channel or who are at an independent right now and feel alone. And I'm super psyched about it. It's called Journey. Find my t-shirts in Journey. And if anyone wants to be part of the journey with us, journeysw.com, Journey Strategic Wealth. That's the company. Awesome. Congratulations. I'm excited for you. All right. Thank you, Penny, for joining

us and sharing your wisdom. Keep being the disruptor. Keep doing what you're doing. It's an inspiration, I'm sure, to so many, but certainly to me. Thank you, Nicole. Thanks for having me. This was awesome. My pleasure. All right. So let's close out with who are you not to be brilliant, fabulous, and talented? Who do you want to be? What do you want to be known for? At your end of days, whenever that might be, how would you want people to describe you? Go be that person. Go chase those dreams.

You get to decide. Being the author of your own story, that's the truest definition of woman's work.