This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 064 / Representation in Entertainment with Laura Hunter Drago

Episode Date: August 4, 2021

Who doesn’t love a good movie? Getting lost in a story or having a good cry, disconnecting from everyday life, just to be entertained. Unfortunately, it doesn’t take much to recognize how our ente...rtainment reinforces stereotypes and gender expectations. On this episode, I’m joined by Laura Hunter Drago - Award Winning Film Producer, Member of SAG AFTRA and Women In Media, and Assistant Editor in Chief of Ms. In The Biz. Laura co-founded New Girl Pictures, a production company that’s committed to getting women into positions both in front of and behind the camera. Representation does matter and we need women in key roles that will share our stories honestly and with care. I for one am excited to see women with complex, full and imperfect lives. And for the love of God, more women who go to bed without a full set of makeup on...who does that?! It’s time we hear the real stories of real women, and I guarantee it will be plenty entertaining. This Is Woman’s Work. To learn more about Laura Hunter Drago please visit: laurahunterdrago.com To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. I think it's changing. I think it's getting better, especially in the last handful of years. And I think it's going to continue to get better because now it's being called out. I am Nicole Khalil, and in this episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk about representation in entertainment. I don't know about you, but I love a good movie or binge watching a great TV show. I can get lost in a story or have a good cry, laugh out loud, recall a great one-liner, and really enjoy disconnecting from everyday life just to be entertained. I can connect certain movies or certain shows to a time in my life, and it's like being transported back, and it brings up all the
Starting point is 00:00:59 feelings. But it wasn't until I got older that I recognized how our entertainment reinforces stereotypes and gender expectations, and how I rarely saw a strong, confident, professional woman that wasn't portrayed as a cutthroat, man-hating, lonely bitch. So many of the stories I loved also reinforced the idea that I was both too much and not enough. And so clearly there was something wrong with me. Overall, women account for approximately 30% of people working behind the scenes in television from creators, directors, writers, and producers, with only 31% of all programs having a clearly identifiable female protagonist. Women fare only slightly better in film at approximately 34% of key behind-the-scenes roles being filled by women. And don't even get me started on LGBTQ+, and women of color. It's not any better there. I have asked Laura Hunter-Drago, award-winning film producer,
Starting point is 00:02:07 member of SAG-AFTRA, and Women in Media, and assistant editor-in-chief of Miss in the Biz, a website that provides resources for women in the entertainment industry, to join me today. Laura co-founded New Girl Pictures, a production company that's committed to getting women into positions both in front of and behind the camera. Laura, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation because I, like I said, watch so much entertainment, but I'm always very curious about what it's like to be in that world and the behind the scenes. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Okay. I know you've had experience as an actor, producer, screenwriter, maybe even other things.
Starting point is 00:02:52 Can you share just what it's like being a woman in those roles? Is it pretty similar? Do you notice differences? Give us a little insight into the life. Sure. So I started out primarily as an actress. I went to college at New York University and studied drama. So my big goal at that age was acting. And I joined PsychAftra and I did a lot of the auditioning circuit. And I think that the reason I ended up moving more into production and writing is that I found that I just didn't have any feeling of creative control. And as an actor, you're just, you know, you're picking up what you're given, you know, the lines are there for you to read. And so you don't really have that much of a say. And I think I felt a little bit powerless in that position. So from my perspective, stepping into positions where more of the decisions are being made has been a huge difference
Starting point is 00:03:54 for me in terms of just kind of taking my own agency within the industry. It's difficult as an actor more so than other jobs. Not that it isn't also difficult as a woman in general in the industry or in the world, but for me specifically, I did feel more frustrated by that feeling of just like, what am I going to do with any of this if all I'm doing is taking somebody's coffee order? You know, it's just not, or the kind of auditions that I would get were for characters that like you said in your intro um just not a lot of depth not a lot going on I'm blonde it was a lot of uh you know just sort of vacant women and uh and and those you know characters that don't really exist in real life that just sort of exist in uh writers' minds, I think. So that was a lot of what I went out for and I found it frustrating. Tell us a little bit about the roles that are
Starting point is 00:04:51 available generally for women. I think from the outside looking in, you kind of have a few, you know, you've got the girl next door, best friend, you've got the, you know, hot girl that, you know, you've got the mom, there's just sort of, it feels like not very complex. Exactly. Yeah. I read an article a while ago and it was, it was talking a lot about, especially the movies that you see, um, that are nominated for Oscars, you know, that type of, uh, I guess what you would call like a serious film. And so often the whole cast is men, except for a wife, maybe a mistress, you know, maybe there's a secretary, maybe someone has a job. I don't know. You know, there's not, there's not a whole lot going on in a lot of those movies.
Starting point is 00:05:44 I think it's changing. I think it's getting better, especially in the last handful of years. And I think it's going to continue to get better because now it's being called out. And there's really obviously no excuse anymore. And also because I think that the people with money are realizing that women go see movies, you know, they want to see themselves reflected on screen. Like, like we are the audience that they are catering to. So it doesn't have to be all like, you know, car racing films where there's one girl fighting with another girl about the lead guy, you know, it can be more than that.
Starting point is 00:06:26 People go see those movies. So I hope it's changing. I feel that way too, just outside looking in, it feels like it's heading in a good direction. We still have a lot longer to go, but even female led action movies starting to come. I'm like, oh, thank goodness. Right. But it's funny, even in shows or film where there are amazing lead women or women that do seem a little bit more complex or have more depth. I always sort of noticed certain things still exist. For example, they always go to bed with full makeup on. They always look, you know, totally put together. Their houses are always not. And I'm like, there's just still an element of real missing or at least real for me where it's like, you know, where's the person who doesn't have all their shit together? It doesn't look like they have a team of people figuring out all of that stuff. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think some of it is a
Starting point is 00:07:32 little bit, um, maybe generational too, because I watch a lot of Tik TOK videos, which I think the people on Tik TOK and the generation below mine is so funny and so on it. And they're, they're like going to be so many great filmmakers out of this group of people, because that's what they're doing. You know, they're making like short form content. That's hilarious. And a lot, a lot of the jokes are like what you're talking about, about how fake everything is. And like, they're, they're not wearing makeup and they're, or they'll do a, one of those crazy filters that, you know, like morph your eyes and your lips and then they'll take it off and be like, this is how I really look. And there's just so much honesty
Starting point is 00:08:16 among that group. So I'm, I'm really hopeful for, for those people when they start moving into, you know, bigger spaces than just their own pages, I think some cool things will happen because yeah, like my generation, you know, we grew up with seeing, you know, like the perfect pop stars and it's like Britney Spears, you know, like when she was younger and just like everywhere, like, yeah, I just read that whole, um, testimony from her yesterday. So she's on my mind, but you know, we grew up with this image of her, um, as, as this, you know, perfect kind of girl, like where everything was so, um, put together all the time. And, uh, and I think that's so much pressure for the person and also for the audience.
Starting point is 00:09:06 Yeah. I, um, will say as a audience member or whatever the right terminology is, it took me a while to figure out that that wasn't realistic, that you would look perfect all the time and your hair is perfectly done and your makeup always, you know, and for me, it was like the Jennifer Lopez, you know, she always had the glow and I'm like, I don't glow like that. What is wrong with me? Right. Well, especially when magazines like 17 magazine, when that was like the media you could consume and that those images have always been so Photoshopped. I think that also is starting to change because people
Starting point is 00:09:40 are calling it out. But, uh, you know, when I was a teenager, that was, that was what you thought these people looked like. So how much pressure exists in the industry as it relates to looks and body image? I mean, I would imagine it is outrageous, but I'm just curious, is that real? Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. I mean, I have had back in the day when I was auditioning more on casting directors saying things to me about my weight or, Oh, I should get a nose job. I had someone once suggest I get a facial tattoo, which not really sure what I would have done with that kind of a permanent decision, maybe suggest like a temporary tattoo. I don't know. Um, just, you know, a lot of pressure. And I have a ton of friends who are still in the industry. And I think, especially for women, there's so much pressure put on your weight. Um, and it really, I see the,
Starting point is 00:10:41 the mental impact on a lot of my friends or the stress that they put on themselves or like the kind of deprivation that they go through um you know and there's also like you're saying it's like then that trickles down to the people that watch this stuff and think everybody's got to have a perfect body and or what is a perfect body like that we're we're gonna like create some sort of ideal that you have to live up to like um yeah I mean I that stuff is depressing and I and I think that will take longer to change honestly than just the um have more roles available for women I think that the the movement towards more like realistic in leads, especially because you see it in like the friend character or the, you know, the girl at your office or
Starting point is 00:11:32 whatever, they'll like add the diversity there. But like in like, let's see a lead role where somebody doesn't have to be like the current perception of what a good body is. Yeah. So on that note, just diversity in general, as we think of people of color or even LGBTQ plus characters being played by or acted by LGBTQ plus actors. I know there was some conversation about that in recent months. Are you seeing change happening in those spaces as well? I know we still have a long way to go, but what are you seeing? Yeah, I think it's definitely, you know, it's, it's in its beginnings and, you know, actually where I've noticed so much for Momentum is in like the Hallmark Lifetime movie space where they had like their first
Starting point is 00:12:35 gay couple lead, I think it was last year. And then like their first, like same sex kiss, maybe a year before. And then they had a differently abled woman as a lead role in a Lifetime movie last Christmas, I think. So I've seen a lot of movement there, which I think is really interesting because that content is very obviously created for women. And it's almost happening a little bit faster in the the lead roles in those movies than in like your you know I mean the film industry is changing as a whole the you know Netflix and sort of the decline of the movie theater which I think has been further pushed by COVID obviously um but you know movies that come out on a big screen now are really just
Starting point is 00:13:22 Marvel or Fast and Furious maybe you get a quiet place in there here that you know, movies that come out on a big screen now are really just Marvel or Fast and Furious. Maybe you get A Quiet Place in there here that, you know, a lucky kind of horror movie. But you don't really see the like serious dramas. Those are sort of going to like HBO Max or Netflix. So it's there's a lot of stuff that's changing. And I wonder if that will precipitate some more change just because some of those, like for instance, Netflix, I think has done a lot for women in terms of like Orange is the New Black was such a landmark show of, of really showing a lot of different types
Starting point is 00:13:56 of women, really like putting them at the forefront of episodes with that ensemble cast. And, and I think that they've continued to, to create pretty good, pretty diverse content. So if they're kind of taking over more of the space, I think that's a good thing. So I'm curious whether it be acting or screenwriting or directing, because while we are making progress, there aren't as many women in those roles as there are men. How is it from the competitive space among women? Do you get more of a sense of women are supporting women? Do you have more of a sense of like, these are my competitions somewhere in the middle? Yeah, I think for me, my experience was, again again starting out as an actor and even just growing up
Starting point is 00:14:49 in high school theater doing like little professional shows like on in regional theaters that atmosphere was very competitive even when I was young where you kind of know you were up against whoever other person and you didn't like each other or, you know, that kind of stuff. And then that, that continued in college. You know, I went to NYU, there's a lot of people of that age. And especially when you're spending a lot of money and you're in a program that you know is, it could, could like push your career forward in a certain way. There's a lot of competition between um people in in that realm and then when you move into audition you know
Starting point is 00:15:31 professional auditions it's a lot of times you're in a room with just like 20 other girls that look almost exactly like you it's very hard not to compare you know it fosters that sort of thing and I think for a while I got really bumped down in that where I'd see somebody that I knew book something huge and it would just rush me for a period of time. And I just, it felt like, you know, there wasn't enough to go around. And so we had to like, you know, you needed to take what was yours. And I think the shift for me started when, especially when I started working with the girls at Miz and the Biz and a lot of those women are actors but also producers and and just seeing that having a collaborative group of women in my life who were all just trying to create something and you're so excited when you join a group like that and something good happens to somebody in it like you've you've seen them put
Starting point is 00:16:23 the work and you've seen them like you know like carry a project from beginning to end like there's nothing that makes me more excited than when when one of my that circle of friends has something happen and it's made me um feel more like that universally now too like anytime something good happens for especially for someone who is a woman or a minority you know and and even you know the guys like I'm happy when anyone has something good happen to them that I feel like they've put um energy into because it's so hard to make movies it's a really hard thing to do so I think it's like such a great success to get anything done in this industry takes so much emotional effort and time and money. So yeah, I mean, I think the shift for me sort of happened as I stopped acting.
Starting point is 00:17:15 But I think even if I went back to acting, I would keep the mindset of, you know, there's a lot of stuff on. There's so many shows now there there's room for everybody um and you just kind of have to keep doing what you're doing and see what happens it's not there's nothing that you you can't compete your way into it that's for sure like I think that that's a part of the mindset I believe actually comes from those of us that like grew up in those like high school theater things because the licensing for those shows it takes so long so even as we make um strides forward for women in the industry the shows that high schools are able to perform are still like 20 years old so there's always like two girls and 20 guys. And I mean, you know how that works.
Starting point is 00:18:06 There's probably a couple of boys you had to pull off the football team to be in your play. And then there's like 80 women that would like to be. So it's an interesting, you know, way that it has worked out because there's always more girls that want to do drama at that age and kind of like don't have the options. Yeah. They don't have that. That's interesting. I never knew about that. So, okay. The Me Too movement was a big, you know, I think the entertainment industry really played a big part and sort of led the way. And I know what it was like being in certain male dominated fields during that time. What was it like being
Starting point is 00:18:47 in the entertainment industry at that time? How was it between women and men? And I I'm just again, curious. It's interesting because, um, we, so with the film that I just released this past year to the new girl, it's an all female cast and creative team. And so we had kind of fundraised on that notion and we did our Kickstarter right before the Me Too movement. And it was just a funny experience to be like editing this all female film in the middle of all of what happened with the Me Too movement. And I have friends that were part of groups that spoke out. And I myself have been through my own Me Too situations within the industry with auditions that were unsafe. And so, you know, I think there's such a feeling of relief of being able to start talking about it, but also, you know, and I know this from my own perspective and from
Starting point is 00:20:00 other people's, it's very difficult to relive those things and to hear it en masse like that, to have everybody come out. I mean, I'm sure you remember when, you know, everybody's Facebook was a story, a horrible story and, you know, the hashtag and yeah, just seeing all of that at once and realizing how pervasive it is. There's, there's part of it that's good, obviously, because it's, it's moving things forward and it's, um, to see that, that you're not alone in those experiences, but it's also very traumatic to relive. And I think it takes, it's going to take a long time to level these things out. Um, and that was my feeling on it was just like, there's so much built up where people just haven't come forward until this point.
Starting point is 00:20:48 But now it's going to be kind of a long road to see where everything lands. I think that there are a lot of good things that have happened in the industry since then, one of which is intimacy coordinators, which I don't know if you know anything about that. But for love scenes, essentially, now networks are choosing to hire a person that is actually there for the mental and choreography aspects of these scenes so that actresses or actors don't feel violated by something that happens on set,
Starting point is 00:21:19 because that's something that happens a lot. So things like that that are being put in place. And also, I believe SAG has done some things to, for instance, say, you know, an audition has to happen in a certain type of place. It can't be a hotel. It can't be a private residence, things like that. Those are really good changes that actually will make a difference. So that's great. Yeah, that is great. I think I can relate to that feeling of being glad that it was coming out and feeling like it was very traumatic and, and like, oh my gosh, you almost, I almost didn't want to get on social media to hear another story. And then that knowing it was pervasive, but not as pervasive
Starting point is 00:22:08 and just like, I remember saying to a friend, I don't think I know anybody who hasn't been impacted in some way, or that doesn't have a close personal relationship with somebody who has their own me too story, if not them. And it was disheartening and motivating. It was upsetting and grateful for people, you know, so, and I'm, and I'm happy to hear that there are some things actually being done about it. Yeah. I think it's, yeah, I can't just be that we're talking about talking about is great but I love the when stuff is actually implemented that's so good you know we were I was mentioning the Britney Spears testimony that came out yesterday and it that I've been thinking about that all night um just how horrible that is and and also just that, if like the symbol of female sexual agency of my generation is, is
Starting point is 00:23:08 trapped in her house and, and can't remove her own IUD, like what hope is there for anyone? It's just, um, that is really disheartening. I hope they let her have her life. That is horrible. I still feel like I needed some time to process it. I know that that is unequivocally wrong. And I just am like trying to be able to articulate how it's wrong, why it's wrong. I mean, yes, the idea that somebody has control over her IUD is mind blasting the fact that she's clearly okay enough to go out there and generate revenue, but somehow not okay enough to, I mean, she's an adult, like it's just, yeah. No, she made a great point. Like I'm literally paying for these people that are then caring for me. Like what that lit that just, that's the end of it. You can't, you can't be in that position.
Starting point is 00:24:11 It doesn't make any sense. Right. Um, so tell us about this, all women cast, all women led run, um, uh, movie that you did. It's called to the new girl. I just, I love the concept. And I, sometimes when I hear that, I hear like a man's voice in my head going, well, what would men or what would women say if men did an all man's cast and an all men, I'd be like, well, how to do that. You just don't claim it as that. So I guess what women would say is whatever they've been saying for the last however many years. Exactly.
Starting point is 00:24:49 That's funny. Yeah, we've definitely gotten that comment. Actually, a very good friend of mine who I went to high school with, so I've known her forever, she wrote this and it was originally a play, which is very similar to the vagina monologues in tone for people that know that piece. So it the vagina monologues in tone for people that know that
Starting point is 00:25:06 piece. So it's 10 monologues for women, and they're all reading letters to the new woman in their ex's life. And they're sort of all over the place in terms of some of them are offering advice. Some of them, it's very heartfelt. Some are really angry. And we've got a pretty wide range. I think our youngest cast member was 22 and our oldest was 83 so all sorts of different stories um and the play had been performed all over the country a lot of colleges have done it um because of that kind of vagina monologues tone um and it's a it's sort of like a simple black box setup in terms of the like we for the movie made it an open mic night and yeah it's it's been, it's sort of like a simple black box set up in terms of the, like we, for the movie, made it an open mic night. And yeah, it's, it's been an awesome experience.
Starting point is 00:25:49 We released last year during COVID, but I think it was almost good because it feels like sort of heightened film theater. And because no one could go to the theater last year, I think it was a fun way to sort of give a little of that back but yeah it was it was a great experience and it was the best thing in terms of my experience of it as a producer was that I got to hire all of these people that I had worked with on different things and and from almost everyone it was their first feature film um so a lot of, you know, our, like our cinematographer and our directors and stuff have been able to take that and, and use it to get other jobs, um, which is awesome. It makes me feel great. And, uh, yeah, it's nice to just showcase a whole bunch of women who are coming up in the industry and, um, hopefully give them like a stepping stone. So that's what I want to
Starting point is 00:26:43 keep doing. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love everything about it. So that's what I want to keep doing. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love everything about it. So for our listeners that want to watch to the new girl, um, it's available on to be for free, correct? It's on to be it's on, um, Amazon prime to rent or buy, but if you want to watch it for free, but with commercials, it's on to be, I think it's on Plex. Um, we're also on the Alice movies channel. If you're familiar with that. So a couple of different places, but you can find all of them at to the new girl.com. So that's kind of the awesome. And if our listeners want to just learn more about you or engage with you, your website is Laura Hunter, drago.com or on Instagram at Laura Hunter Drago.
Starting point is 00:27:23 Any other places people should be finding you? I think that's everything. I think my website links out to any other place you might find me. Awesome. Laura, thank you for quenching my curiosity. I am so, you know, I think like most of the population, a little enamored with the entertainment industry
Starting point is 00:27:44 and of course love movies and TV shows. And, um, there's so much to love about it. And there's pieces that you're just like, we still have so much work to do. So I appreciate you giving us a little bit of insight and most especially appreciate you for the work that you're doing. Thank you so much, especially with this film, amazing work. So thank you. Thanks. Thank you so much for having me. It's been great. All right. I want to close out by saying that representation does matter and we need women in
Starting point is 00:28:17 key roles that will share our stories honestly and with care. We have more power than we often remember in that we can decide where we spend our time and our money. And I, for one, am excited and ready for more women as heroes, more women with complex, full and imperfect lives. And for the love of God, more women who go to bed without a full set of makeup on. Like who does that? It's time we hear the real stories of real women, and I guarantee it will be plenty entertaining. This is Woman's Work.

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