This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 065 / Gender Equity And Steps To Get There with Maureen Devine-Ahl

Episode Date: August 18, 2021

I have found my mission twin and am so thrilled for this conversation on all things gender equity! I am joined by Maureen Devine-Ahl - Founder and Principal at Candor & Company, Author of “How To Make The Matriarchy,” and fellow woman on a mission to achieve gender equity in her lifetime. She is committed to eliminating barriers and coaches both women and leaders as a women’s empowerment advocate. (Sound like someone you know??) I get that not everyone is as passionate as I am about gender equity, equal pay, getting women in leadership and seeing more women start businesses, write business books… but I truly believe it would be a better world if ALL humans were valued as equals (not as the same, but valued in our differences… equal in our rights and opportunities). Individually, we are all whole, worthy and valuable, but we become better together. Find your people, find your tribe, share those passions, support each others risks, aim high, dream big and tell all the naysayers to get the f*$k out of the way because you have important work to do. This Is Woman’s Work. To learn more about Maureen Devine-Ahl please visit:candorandcompany.com To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. We are pioneering the future. We are pioneering a world that has literally never been seen by anybody living or potentially ever. So we're all going to make mistakes. And I think just continuing to show up courageously and own our mistakes, but be committed to building a better future for everyone is the best way we can all show up. Have you ever been connected to somebody and right away know you're going to like them? Met someone who seems to see things the way that you do so you feel less alone in the world

or in your work? On today's episode of This is Woman's Work, you're about to witness that in real time. I am Nicole Khalil, and I think I just found my mission twin. As I was prepping for this recording, my excitement level just kept building and building. Maureen Divine All is on a mission to achieve gender equity in her lifetime. She is committed to eliminating barriers and coaches both women and leaders as a woman's empowerment advocate. And her most popular keynote is titled Learning to Love the F Word.

Doesn't this just sound like somebody I'm gonna love? Maureen is also the author of How to Make the Matriarchy, The Power and Promise of Prioritizing Women and the founder and principal at candor and company. Maureen, I can't wait to dive in. Thank you so much for being here today. Absolutely. And Nicole, I love mission twin. Yes, absolutely. I love it. As I was reading your bio and looking at your website, like it's like everything I would read, I was like, Oh my God, I'm going to love her. So pardon me if I geek out a little bit, it's just so much fun to talk to somebody

with a shared love, passion, mission. So, okay, let's jump into that. Uh, why in your opinion, and again, I'm sure we could talk about this the whole podcast. Why do we need more women in leadership? Yeah. Well, there is just so much evidence around the world. And I hope today we turn like mission twinship into triplets, quadruplets, like listeners, like, come on down. Yeah. We're breeding here.

Yeah, exactly. That's right. And that's a big reason I wrote the book was because I got to a point in my life where I was looking around and starting to see some evidence of gender inequality right in front of my face. And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. I am missing something. I need to get a little more educated. And so it was this beautiful learning journey where I did look around the world and there's just so much evidence. Like if we get out of our own everyday lives, our own even country and, and look at other places who have closed their gender gaps, women in leadership is a huge indicator that once their voices and lived experiences are included in critical leadership conversations, that it just has a ripple effect out into experience for all of society and life gets better, not just for women.

That's a big thing I impress in the book, not just for women. This isn't about prioritizing women so that only women win. There's tons of evidence that women, know invest differently than than men do so they bring it home and nutrition improves and education improves in the whole household and and then more broadly in the community you know women invest and give differently so then community outcomes start to rise so to me it was just such a big conclusion out of this writing experience that more women in leadership matters. It is what will change the world significantly. I believe that wholeheartedly and other countries have the data to prove it.

Yeah. So many of the things that you're saying, I'm nodding my head. It's not just the right thing to do. I think a lot of people in business think that women want this because they want something for themselves or because it's the quote unquote, politically correct or right thing to do. And it's like, yes. And this is an incredibly smart and strategic business decision. It's going to increase profitability. It's helpful to the bottom line. And I love the piece that you added to that. It's, this is not just about making

things better for women. It's sort of that concept of when women rise, everybody rises. Yeah. It's the opposite of the scarcity mindset that you can go to real quick when you're talking about inclusion and equality and equity that like, if others are, if we're setting others up to win or to gain that somebody else has to lose. And it's just not true. The one thing I wanted to make sure I shared with you today too, and just looking at who your audience is, the big takeaway I had from this book, in addition to like women in leadership matter is also we as really busy and ambitious and do all the things women, the struggle is real. And I know that sounds cliche, but it's actually real. Like there are a lot of systemic things stacked against us that make our experience harder professionally, personally at home everywhere.

And so that was like another kind of big catalyst around this idea of getting more women in leadership for me, because it was like, okay, the struggle is really real. It's not me. It's not on me to work harder or fight harder or claw my way into that leadership room. It's on other people to create more space for me and me, you know, to show up and be ready for that and be educated, but not to feel like this is, this is about me to fix. Yeah. I think a lot of women carry that burden, that weight of thinking that other people have more capacity and they can do it all. And, and so it's sort of a, like, there must be something wrong with me that I'm struggling to work at the same level or perform, or, you know, then balance that with home responsibilities

and spouse and children and just all of the things. And I think it's so important that we continue to communicate that the struggle is real. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but I've literally never interacted with a woman who doesn't feel it. Yeah. Yeah. And this past year, yeah, was just glaringly obvious. And the, the, you know, silver lining out of this past year, year and a half out of the pandemic pause, as I like to call it, is I think we finally got to spotlight a lot of that. And that's evidence, right? This is real. Our childcare infrastructure is lacking. Our workplace infrastructure is like, those are real systems things that you or I can't change on our own, right? No matter how hard we work. So let's talk about that. What are, in your perspective, the new biggest

challenges and opportunities to achieving gender equality post COVID? Yeah. So, oh my gosh, so many things. I mean, for listeners who are, you know, keeping track of the policy work that's happening, I think those are some really exciting advances. The fact that we are talking about childcare as infrastructure and trying to move that needle, I think is a huge opportunity. And I really hope that we make gains there, but I would love to talk to your listeners a little bit more on the personal level. Again, policy is great, but it's only as good as the leaders we show up and elect. And then like as good as they prove to be when they actually decision-making time meets their desk. But so, yeah, I mean, on a personal level,

I think I would love to talk about kind of this concept of ideal work is something that I've really been thinking about. So on my writing journey, I started to see this in a couple of places over the last decade or so being discussed that there's this ideal worker phenomenon. And it's sort of this like bias we all bring to work of what ideal work looks like, what it feels like, what it behaves like. And I'm sure we all have our own vision of this, but I encourage,

you know, listeners just like sit a minute and in your workspaces and places, like, what do you think of when you think of hard work, hustling, ideal work? And it's probably things like long hours, like hide your competing interests. Like don't, you know, try not to let childcare drop off and pick up interfere too much with client work or with the office hours. So this concept of the ideal worker was really born, you know, in the 1950s, where it was like ideal work is butts in seats, arrives early, stays late, you know, has ultimate flexibility because things at home are taken care of, not a lot of competing interests outside of the workplace, can travel, can relocate, can all of these things pretty easily. And we've just been like marinating in that concept. I don't think any of us necessarily choose that concept, but it's just

what we've been marinated in, in our workplaces. And so I see this as a tremendous opportunity, especially with all the conversation that we're having around bias, racial bias, gender bias, all of those things to re-examine. I think it's time to re-examine what we think of as ideal work and be more intentional about what is the new vision of ideal work. It hasn't been updated in a really long time. So instead of just, you know, going back to the office and kind of getting back in those grooves, really examining what is ideal work in this environment? Do we promote people who can be here early and stay late? Do we promote people with the most education? Do we promote people with the least breaks in their career? What are the things that either explicitly or inexplicably we're promoting as quote unquote ideal work? And then how do those create

barriers and inequities in our workplace that we can really get conscious about and then start to work to break those down and also celebrate when we do like celebrate when people start modeling whatever your new vision of ideal work is. And I think it's a really exciting time to kind of embark on that exploration and, and mind shifting journey. Yeah, it's so interesting that you bring this up, because it's become almost a little bit of a pet peeve of mine right now, especially this like insane focus on hard work, grit, grind it out. And I'm all for hard work. And I know that it's at least in a lot of cases, a prerequisite to success, but it's

come almost to a point where it feels like hard work for the sake of hard work. Like I don't actually need to be here that early or stay that late, but I'm going to do it to prove something and sort of this, like going public with it on social media or in the, you know, office meetings, or it's just sort of this, look at me and how hard I'm working. It's like, there isn't a problem we don't try to solve by saying do more. And it's really crazy if you think about it, because what about effectiveness? What about efficiency? Like if I am somebody who's so effective and so efficient at my work that I can get the same or more done in less time, how am I being punished for that? Like, that's so crazy, but I think that's happening all over

the place where people, but maybe more, especially women are very effective or very efficient, or, or they make it a point to be very efficient because they need to be, but they end up being the opposite of not recognized. They almost end up getting punished for it. Well, yeah. And it's punishing on multiple fronts because then we go home and we're not happy or healthy or our best selves either. So it's like, nobody's really winning in that dynamic, but you know, it's funny, even like, I kind of heard it as you were just talking, you were, you put in that qualifier of like, you know, and to a certain extent, hard work is a prerequisite for success. Like if, if I was in coaching mode right now and you were a leader, I was coaching who,

who treats their teams that way. I would say like, where does that belief come from? Do you really believe that to be true? You know, and, and unpack like what's going on behind that. I think it was Adam Grant had like a beautiful little post. I love him. I know he's amazing, but he posted in, it really resonated for me. Trust is not a location. It's a feeling. So if you need to see your workers in their offices to trust that they're working, your relationships are fundamentally broken. And I was like, boom, right there. Trust is not a location. Trust is a relationship is a feeling that you have established with your workers. And if you have that trust, you should trust them to get done what they need to get done from wherever the heck they are. So that's the kind of work like scratch at that, you know, and, and be like, where does that belief really come from?

Do you really believe it to be true? Has that actually been your experience? I would, yes, 95% of us, especially after this year would go, no, actually it hasn't. Right. Yeah. I've been sitting with that a lot in the last couple of years is kind of almost rebelling against the grind, hard work, work long hours. I think when I say hard work for myself, that has been a huge part of my experience. So at some point, I don't know if I would have accomplished what I had accomplished without, without hard work. But I say that as a question mark, because I, I only have that experience. It took hard work to get to a certain point. So I don't, I don't know if I could have gotten there without it. Right. Right. And then now as an independent

hard work, I don't, I don't work any more than 30 hours a week. I guess that's not really what we're talking about. But what I think of when I say hard work now is more the, I've got to be willing to take risks. I've got to be willing to get uncomfortable on a regular basis. So my definition of hard work, I think is evolving and has changed quite a bit. But for me, I still, as much as I want to be able to say this, I haven't quite disconnected from the idea that in order for me to create the success that I want, there's going to be some measure of what I would call hard work in there. Interested in your reaction or thought on that. My reaction was like, yes, game on. I love that because you kind of flipped the definition of hard work as to like the actual hard work,

which is like, you know, hearts and minds and perspectives and like deeper thinking thought work, um, that we know is actually more draining. So then I would draw the conclusion or the parallel, I guess, whatever you want to say that yes, like let's spend more time doing actual hard work, but then recognize that that actual hard work is harder and that we need more rest to be able to be good at that. And so is 20 hours of true hard work better than 40 hours of working hard, which, you know, we might equate as being at the office for long hours or whatever other images come to mind of hard work. No, like let's invest our hours in the true hard stuff that, that creates real change and then

go home and rest so we can come back and do that real work. Yeah. And take care of ourselves, right. You know, fill our tanks so that we can show up. I think about that so much. So I know you work with a lot of leaders and I am am guessing though I could be off base that part of that is working with a lot of men and maybe more specifically white men, because as it stands currently, white men hold the largest amount of the executive high level, you know, culture defining

leadership roles. And I know we're working to change that, but that is our current environment. So how can men find their place in the work of women's empowerment? Well, I have just been blown away. So I really thought I was writing a book to my girlfriends, but then after the book came out, I just had so much great response from male readers saying like, this really opened my eyes to a lot of things. This made me ask questions that I've never asked myself. This made me realize data that's out there that I never would have paid attention to. And some of the other feedback I got was that it was just in this like beautiful non preachy, non sort of threatening way, which is how I landed on the title too. Like there's this whole like patriarchy matriarchy

must mean like men versus women. Like we just want a whole society filled with women, you know? And I did have a few guys who are like long time friends go, you know, I was a little skeptical when I picked up the title, but I addressed it right away that like, it's actually just about power. Like you can be a woman operating in a patriarchal way. You can be a man operating in a matriarchal way. Patriarchy is power over others. Matriarchy I argue is the power of inclusion. So the way that men can find their place in this work and the men who I've received feedback from who are finding their place in this work is the men who I've received feedback from who are finding their place in this work is to get educated, is to look around, like read my book or find something else that looks approachable for you. And really start to understand the data, look around at some of the

countries who have closed their gender gaps and see that like life improves for men too. So in the Nordic countries, one thing I point out was like, they had paid maternity leave way back in the seventies, but then they realized that it was creating inequality at home. Like mother stayed home. So they set the routines, they learned the childcare, they learned all that and relationships that still suffered after that with this like power imbalance at home. So that country recognized that they moved on to do paid paternity leave pretty quickly. And now, you know, men have really generous benefits in that, in that arena as well. And so they do get to stay home and pick up more of the caregiving and learn it and learn how to do it. And then they find that relationships are more equal and more successful and couples are happier. And there's a great book

that I cite. It's called why, why women have better sex under socialism, which I won't even get into that one, but it is a great book and it's not about what you think it's about, but you know, she does tuck in there. Very little of the book is about sex. I said, there's nothing like a catchy title to get you to buy your book. Um, but she does touch on it. And like the countries where gender gaps are closed, like both men and women and heterosexual partnerships report better sexual sex lives. Well, yeah. Reduced stress, anxiety, bitterness, resentment. I would imagine that probably plays out in relationship. Yeah. So not to say it's funny. I'm thinking back to the question you asked and I'm like, wow, I just went straight from like, how do guys get interested to like, because you'll have better sex. It probably would work. Right. Um, but yeah, I think just get curious. Um, it's the

same thing I did. I got curious. I, I kept myself open to things and the more I learned, the more I became rooted in, in some certainties for myself and some changes in behaviors for myself. And I think there are lots of opportunities. It doesn't have to become, you know, I don't want guys to go out and buy the shirt that I have, which says feminism, my second favorite F word, like you don't have to go out and buy that, but just change one or two things. And that's progress because if we all start to do that on a grander scale, like that's when we'll see real culture shift. Right. I always tell people I advocate for women, but not at the expense of men. And I think that's a really important distinction. I started to joke around about

world domination and all of that, but generally what I want is for all of us to be able to show up as our authentic selves, as who we were put here to be with our unique talents and abilities and not feel like we're forced into a gender box with all the expectations that come along with it. And I can relate so much to what you said about what men say when they read your book. I get that comment a lot. 11% of our listeners are men. And I track that stat like nobody else's business. I mean, obviously I'm very passionate about women, but these men who listen to a podcast called this is woman's work have a special place in my heart. Like to your point, that's something you can do to listen, learn, and just be, be open. Yeah. Well, and the other piece too, to your written

part of your lead up to this question, like the reality is men do hold most of the power and wealth. It's just the systems we've been living in again, picking like the shame and blame. This is not a gender war. This is not a like, Oh my God, men, they got all the things. And we got to like, you know, storm the battlefield and take it all away. It really is like, okay, these are the systems we were born into. They were created long before us. Let's get to know them. Let's acknowledge them. And then let's figure out what we want to do instead. And, and the reality is though that, you know, men are in those seats. So they're going to, we're all going to have to figure out how to work together and shift some things around and either bring more seats to the table or whatever it may be.

So I think that's the other response, responsibility or opportunity. Let's say that, that men have is to take a look at what seats do I have? What privileges do I have? And how can I, how can I include more people in those privileges or spread those privileges around? And women too, I often am very mindful of how much privilege I have. Yeah. So, you know, I think we almost all have privilege in some form or fashion and just being aware. And again, noticing, listening,

how can I be an agent of change in this? What else can we learn from countries in the world that are ahead of us? And I know sometimes people have a hard time, you know, thinking our country is the best at everything. And this is just not the case in this. And I'm sorry for those of you who are uber patriotic, if that really is frustrating for you, but the truth is the truth. We are not winning in the space of gender equality. So what else can we learn from other countries? Yeah. Well, to put a little pin for a second in, you know, uber patriotic, I actually last summer kind of redefined my relationship with the word patriotic, that actually like to be patriotic is to love your country so much that you want to make

it better, you know, like that you, that you want to improve the lived experience for your country mates. And I think if you then look at the global data through that lens and go, Oh, wait a minute, like we are falling behind in places like super let's get patriotic and get ourselves back to the top of that list. What's it going to take? What's it going to take to rise our numbers? What are those countries doing to achieve those numbers? And it is, it's women in leadership. One of the stories that I love the most from this journey that just rocked my world was, so like no pressure to answer this, but who do you think is number one in the world for parliamentary representation by women? I feel like I knew

this at one point in time, Australia, Germany, someone Nordic country. Yeah. That's what most people think. It is Rwanda. Really? Yes. Wow. not been open to women before. And you see how fast progress can happen when women are suddenly invited to decision-making spaces. You know, women became judges in towns that were presiding over the trials after the genocide. They flooded into parliament. They set quotas for women to show up in parliament because they realized that, you know, on a micro level, it was predominantly women left rebuilding their own communities and that was working. And so it was like, go bigger, go bigger. And suddenly, you know, women had access to owning land, had more access to education. They've just made progress real fast.

So I love telling that story because I think that was my first experience that I really went, huh, this works, huh? I'm not recommending that we, that there needs to be genocide to get us there. But when you put women in leadership quickly, progress happens for women and for countries, you know, that's a story I love to tell, but it is, as you mentioned, the Nordic countries that really top all of these lists. And I think it's because of things, like I mentioned, it was Sweden who has had paternity leave for like paid paternity leave for like 30 years now. And so you're, you're seeing the impact of that long time investment. It's has a like physical impact in how people behave, but then a cultural impact. So a lot of the research I read was like, it's almost shameful now. Like guys will shame each other. If you're not taking that leave, it'll be like, uh, what, what are you doing? Do you not care about your family? Exactly.

Exactly. Um, and that's where I hope we get to. Cause right now, I mean, my sense and my experience has been the shame goes the other way around. Like, yeah, wait, so you're going to take how much paternity leave? Oh, okay. All right. We see where your priorities are. Right. And then that just creates strain, of course, back at home. Let's talk about why make the matriarchy. And I know you've already addressed this a little bit, but tell us more about the book and why make the matriarchy. Yeah. So it really was, I was having lunch with a girlfriend one day. And I just, I never felt like I could find my place in the phrase of smash the patriarchy. Like I get it. And in theory, I am totally on board, but like every time that phrase seemed to come up, it seemed to be like, oh, smash the patriarchy, like fists and bearing of teeth. And it was like, or, you know, and going back to what we talked

about, it was kind of setting the stage for, is this a gender war? Like who wins, who loses, what changes? And even like, okay, so say we smash the patriarchy, like what, then what does it look like on the other side was with this thing smashed, what takes its place. And so it was really for me more about like, let's take the war and the rage, the, the completely earned rage though. Certainly in research, I found myself getting a little angry at times. So it's, it's good um, it's almost in line with this, this, um, idea of patriotism, like instead, like, what are we going to build? What are we going to bring together?

Um, I, I say we should be in a race to replace the patriarchy as opposed to smashing it. What are we replacing it with? So, um, it was that lunch with a girlfriend where she was like, Oh, smash the patriarchy. And I just went, I don't know, can't like make the matriarchy matriarchy or something. She leaned in and she was like, yeah, I want to do that. How do we do that? And so it was then that I went back and I was like, well, I don't know, like, do I actually want to advocate for matriarchies? Do any exist? What do they look like? What are their power structure themes? And the more I researched, there are existing matriarchies still in the world. They have some cool stories and some cautionary tales. But overall, it was about building more inclusive

societies that work for everyone, where there's just more equality, there's less power over others and just more equal distribution of power. Yeah. I think my best self, my forward thinking self is 1000% with you. Like it doesn't make sense to replace an imbalance with another imbalance, right? So it's not men versus women. It's not patriarchy now or just eliminate like the smash thing. I will share, and I'm glad that you said this too, that I can completely empathize with being so angry and so frustrated at times in moments where smash makes perfect sense.

We don't have time for this, but I often think like if I were a black woman living in the United States, I would be so angry. I don't know how to live with that. So I can empathize and understand where that might come in to play a lot. Yeah. And the thing I'll say, I'll say to that just quickly, like that was definitely part of the journey too, in learning that the word feminism is not a word that has meant the same thing to all women by any stretch of the imagination and I I talk about that that um in order for us to be like a truly

inclusive movement moving forward we have to take a look around and go like are the decisions we're making and the things that we're fighting for and the policies that we're writing and building are they good for everyone or are they better for some than others and i do think it's our responsibility you and i both as white women to get a little angry on behalf of women of color um and use the privilege that we have as white women um to to advocate for or better experience for women of color in this country, for more privilege, for redistribution of wealth, you know, all of those things. Yeah. I know this sounds sort of silly, but I make it a point to be conscious that I do vote against my own self-interest

in certain areas and certain, like, if I'm only ever always thinking about myself when I vote or when I voice or when I advocate, then I just feel like I'm completely missing the mark. So I don't have this figured out. I'm by no means perfect. And I'm sure I make mistakes and say the wrong things. But I think it's so important for us, as you said. Okay, Maureen, I wish we had more time, but I know busy women are listening. So I want to be mindful. If people want to find you,

they can go to candorandcompany.com. You can follow her on LinkedIn at mdivineall. So M-D-E-V-I-N-E-A-H- H L or follow her on Instagram at M divine all. Oh, tell us where to find the book, Amazon, I'm assuming local bookstore. Yep. All the places it's on Amazon. If your local bookstore doesn't have it, request it, they can get it. Um, but yeah, it's everywhere you buy books. And I would say just my like parting note, you just said on, like, I don't have it all figured out. I'll make mistakes. Like we are pioneering the future. We are pioneering a world that has literally never been seen by anybody living or potentially ever. So we're all going to make mistakes.

And I think just continuing to show up courageously and own our mistakes, but be committed to building a better future for everyone is, is the best way we can all show up. All right. Go by how to make the matriarchy, the power and promise of prioritizing women. And Maureen, thank you for being my mission to win for being out there fighting this fight and making me feel a little less alone today. Um, I appreciate your time. Yeah, you too. Thanks, Nicole. Okay. I know not everyone is as passionate as I am about gender equity, equal pay, getting women to the leadership and seeing more women start businesses, write business books and all the things that would exist if women were valued at the same level, maybe not for the same things, but that the unique talents, different perspectives and abilities of women would be valued as equal in society and in the workforce. So it's really fun for me to

connect with someone with that shared mission. I hope you find and continue to meet people where you get to geek out and get awkwardly excited about connecting over a shared love or passion. And I'll leave you with this. We are all whole, worthy, invaluable, all on our own. And we are all better together. Find your people, find your tribe, share those passions, support each other's risks, aim high, dream big, and tell all the naysayers to get the fuck out of the way because you have important work to do and can't waste your precious time and energy on people who just don't get it. And that is woman's work.