This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 068 / Ditch the Sleazy Sales Tactics with Erika Tebbens

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

Whether it be a product, service or career opportunity, we are all selling or being sold to on a daily basis. Sales is a part of our lives. So we might as well create an empowered and productive perception of it, aaaaand we might as well be good at it. I’ve invited Erika Tebbens - Business Strategist, Sales and Marketing Coach, and fellow Podcaster, who’s on a mission to help people ditch the sleazy sales tactics, and find real solutions for real businesses. Erika shares with us her S.A.L.E.S method to authentic selling. If sales and self promotion is ultimately about confidence, courage and impact, then it’s time we all get to it. Because if not you, then who? And if not now, then when? Let’s support, promote, encourage, hire, say yes to women who are bravely putting themselves out there… let’s celebrate women in sales! This is Woman’s Work. To learn more about Erika Tebbens please visit: www.erikatebbens.com For Erika’s free downloadable guide to her No-Sleaze Sales Method visit:https://erikatebbensconsulting.com/no-sleaze-selling To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. If you want to run a human-centered, integrity-driven, ethical business, building relationships with people and respecting those relationships is crucial. I am Nicole Kalil, and on this episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk about sales. I know just the word sales triggered different reactions and responses, whether it be excitement and energy or annoyance and disgust, and maybe lots of feelings in between. Are women better or worse at selling than men? Has the way we've been socialized supported or hindered us in sales? Is selling a necessary, helpful, impactful part of business and life? Or is it only for the manipulative, selfish, or greedy? I guess only you can answer those questions for yourself. But what I've come to believe is

that sales, just like most things, has its value and its shadow side. It has great purpose and can also be used in a way that harms and takes advantage. It isn't sales that's the problem, though. It's how people use it. If you have intentions to help people solve problems and meet the needs of those you're selling to, then sales is about relationship, passion, and influence. If your intentions are only about what's in it for you, then sales can become about results over people, pressure tactics, hubris, arrogance, manipulation, and even exploitation. But we must, no matter what, acknowledge that we are all selling or being sold to. Whether it be a product, service, career opportunity, in dating,

and getting somebody to do something that you want them to do. Like, side note, getting a child to clean up their room may require a master's degree in sales or even selling or promoting yourself. Sales is a part of our lives. So we might as well create an empowered and productive perception of it. And we might as well be good at it. And I know without a shadow of a doubt, it requires great strength, courage, and confidence to choose sales as a profession. It can be an amazing win-win opportunity, but women only represent 39% of the workforce in sales. And that percent has only increased by 3% over the last decade, according to LinkedIn. And unfortunately, though not surprisingly, the percentage decreases as seniority increases. But everything in my experience is women are

phenomenal salespeople. They excel at listening, empathy, education, and communication. And in most cases, they care about their customer, client, or product. And because of that, I've asked Erica Tebbins, business strategist, sales and marketing coach, and fellow podcaster who's on a mission to help people ditch the sleazy sales tactics and find real solutions for real businesses to join us today. Erica, I'm really excited for this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Thank you for having me, Nicole. I love talking about this.

And I love that you love it because honestly, it's taken me a long time to create a really empowered relationship with sales. I avoided it a lot. So I'm going to start by asking, why do people fear, avoid, or even maybe have so many judgments about sales? Yeah. I would say, especially, I really loved how you said, you know, are women better or worse than men at sales? And I think what it is, is we are actually phenomenal at it. We just don't realize how often we're actually doing it because usually when we do it, we're not trying to sell something that we personally would benefit from. We are just literally raving to our friends about something that we think they should buy because we love it. So we are naturally

selling all of the time. Agreed. And I love that point because we, as women, we do it so often without realizing it, right? It's the, oh my gosh, this amazing facial cleansing product or this nanny service, or, you know, like we just, we just do it naturally. So then where's the bad rap come from? Yeah. So I think what it really is, is that we are conditioned to think of it like an infomercial, right? Like the sham wow guy, or like a high pressure car salesman, things like that. We tend to assume that if we are selling something that like would benefit us directly financially, that that is how we are going to come across to people or that the only way that we are able to actually sell effectively is to like heavy-handed, you know, through heavy-handed convincing or through manipulation or sleazy things like,

you know, we all have that person who we haven't talked to in 20 years who slides into our DMS and it's like, Hey girl, I want to tell you about this opportunity. You know, like we, we've all experienced that. And, but you know, the good news is that none of that is actually needed to be really good at sales. You can believe in what you're selling. You can benefit financially from what it is and you can do it ethically and in integrity and in a way that will feel good for both parties. So for you and the person that you're selling to. Yeah. I always think too, you know, your friends, family members, potential clients, people in your community are mostly buying these services or these products anyway. So like, it's not like

we come along and are trying to convince them to do something they don't already do, or that they need something they don't need. In a lot of cases, it's just stuff we make up in our own head. Would you agree or disagree? Yeah. And I think a lot of it is around a lack of confidence, which is why I love that I'm having this conversation with you since you're a confidence expert, but it's that we don't feel confident that like people would actually want to spend money with us, that people would actually be thrilled to invest in whatever it is that we have. And I think that as the price goes up, we like our confidence diminishes even more.

Cause it's one thing if you're like, oh, well, like I make coffee mugs and I sell them on Etsy and they're $20. You know, we, that threshold is not that big, but when you're like, Oh, I have, you know, a coaching package, that's $20,000. Like, well, that's, that's a much larger ask of somebody than just $20. And so I think that we put this immense pressure on ourselves and tell ourselves these stories of like, nobody would ever want this. I'm not worthy of making this much money. I'm clearly exploiting somebody if I do this and on and on and on. Yeah. The head trash definitely kicks in because of, you know, confidence and all that. But I, it's a really good point. The larger the price tag, the more the head trash kicks in. So talk to us about what selling

actually is and what it isn't. Yeah. So I like to view selling as, I mean, you've probably heard this before, but like selling a service, but also selling as ensuring that both parties are a good fit for each other. And again, obviously like this is not so much the case with the coffee mug, but you know, if you are a service provider of any sort, whether it's like done for you or it's standalone strategy, there is this level of really making sure that both people are right for each other and that it makes sense. Because part of why I feel like, especially in the online world, like the world of online business, why there's a lot of not great stuff that we see happening is because often people are just trying to hit these huge, impressive launch numbers and they are not being as sensitive as they probably could be

to making it crystal clear, like who is the best fit for that thing that they're selling and who is not the best fit and just being okay, putting that out there in just a very transparent way, because far too often what happens, and I'm sure you've seen this in your work too, is that people are buying a lot of these, you know, courses and memberships and things, assuming one thing. And then in the end, they're like, oh, actually like I did, that wasn't for me or like, yeah, I learned some stuff, but actually it would have been more helpful if X, Y, Z were in place first, because then I could really like leverage what I learned in here. But I think this is really pervasive and it's something that's

easily avoidable in our own businesses because it's really just a matter of qualifying who your offers are best for and who they aren't great for. So if you have that, you know, $2,000 offer, $20,000 offer, it's just being crystal clear that you are aligning your marketing to bring in the people who make the most sense to be investing in that thing. What kept hopping into my head as you were saying that is then sales is about finding your people. And I love that. And I think it, I wish I would have heard this in my twenties because, you know, I thought sales was casting the widest net and trying to convince the most amount of people. And then you get the nose and the rejection and the people who don't get it.

And then I, I think it chipped away at my confidence. It was, well, you know, these people aren't get it. And then I think it chipped away at my confidence. It was, well, you know, these people aren't saying yes. And it chipped away as opposed to what you just said really made this connection for me. But what I feel stronger now is when people say no, it's like, okay, those aren't my people. And that frees me up to spend the time to keep going and finding the people that are, but whether it be from a marketing or communication or internal voice or confidence, whatever it's ultimately sales is about finding your people. And I'll just add, I did this to make myself feel better many years ago. And I've shared this with a few other people. I just was like, do I really need to appeal to

everybody? And mathematically, if 0.01% of the population of the United States worked with me once and did something for $50, which I don't even have anything for $50, but let's just pretend I would make 16 and a half million dollars. I would be a multimillionaire if 0.01% of the population worked with me once at a, at a smaller ticket item. And I just like, was like, okay, I don't need to appeal to 99.9% of the population. I need to find my 0.01 that are my people. Yeah, exactly.

And I, I remember when you came on my podcast and said that I was like, oh my gosh, that math is just wild. But because like, I think too, especially since a lot of people that I work with are service providers, like when you actually look at, okay, how many hours do you have to work and what are the costs of your offers? And you know, how many clients can you take on at one time? And what are your money goals? When you actually do the math, you're like, oh yeah, I only need to convert a certain amount of people at one time. And it's actually not, it's generally not that many. And I hope that's

a relief for a lot of people because yeah. And the more specific you are, which is something that, you know, I have found usually comes through, like you get a lot of clarity through working with people and you start to realize like, Oh, actually I like working with these types of people more than these types of people, or this category of people tends to get the best results. So I, you, you just keep like refining over time. And as you do that, this whole process becomes so much easier. But yeah, I think that like, even though we often hear like selling a service, I feel like that feels often very murky.

I view it as like being in service to making sure that those people are the right fit and will have the best opportunity of succeeding in whatever the thing is that you're selling them. Yeah. And, and, and that you will also win, right? It's that win, win. So, you know, they benefit from you and your service and you're the right fit for them and they're thrilled. And then also you benefit in the way of getting paid the psychological and emotional payments that we receive when we work with the right people for us. I absolutely love that. So, okay. I've often heard people say, find a way to sell that works for you. I'm curious about that, but I also personally have found that there is no way for me to sell that doesn't require an element of getting

uncomfortable. So do you agree with that? And how do we find a way to sell that works for us and still acknowledge, yeah, you're going to have to get uncomfortable. It's part of the deal. Yeah. So I think that there is this level of, you know, when, when we are excited about something and we know it's good and we want to enroll people into it, there it's like that nervous excitement, the like scared sighted, right? Like you're like, I really want people to buy this thing because I know how awesome it is. And I know how transformative it will be, but also like, what if nobody buys, right? Like, what if, what if I'm trying to launch like this? It's most common. I feel like with like group programs where it's like, what if I launch a group program and like two people sign up, that's not a group. Like then I'll feel embarrassed. You know, it's, it's all of these things. And I think that we get very, um, like nervous and self-conscious about like, what if this thing I

love ends up being rejected by various people, um, which is real. And I don't think that there's, I don't know. I think if you're like a, a not sociopath, like, I think like, you're right. Like it's, that's just going to happen, right? Like you're going to have those natural human emotions because inherently like as humans, you know, we don't, we don't like rejection, right. It doesn't feel good, even if it's done in like a very kind way. Um, so I think that what it really is, is it's about getting curious. So I have a method, it's the acronym sales, and I have a free download that you can, you know, so nobody has to be like furiously taking notes while I do this, but the, the biggest part I'll run through them. So it's, uh, set the S is set the tone.

So that just means just in general, in your brand, in your marketing, everything, set a welcoming tone for the right people. Then the two kind of most important elements of this are the next two, which is ask good questions. So A, ask good questions. And then L which is, uh, ask good, good questions. So a ask good questions. And then L is listen, limit, and lead. So this is where you are just going to be in conversation with people. And this doesn't necessarily even have to just be on a discovery call. This could be, you know, if you're talking in Instagram stories and you're asking people like, Hey,

I want you to answer these questions for me or do these polls or whatever. I'm trying to figure something out, trying to get curious. And it's just really about getting curious. Like what is going on with them as it pertains to what you do and really assessing what is happening for them that caused them to want to reach out to you or what, you know, what they're experiencing that you might be able to help them with. And then as you are asking those really good questions, it's kind of like if anyone listening is a coach, right?

You're like, sometimes you just, you keep asking questions to get to the heart of the matter. And then you're like, oh, okay, here's, you know, my suggestion to you. Right. So then as you're listening, using your good listening ears and picking up on what they're saying, then you can think about, okay, what are, what are the offers that I have? Or is this, is the one offer I have actually a good fit? And if you have more than one, I always suggest like limiting that's, you know, so you don't want to say like, I have five things, like, which one do you want? Cause that's overwhelming for people. And then leading

them to what you think is best for them. So not necessarily best for you. Cause they might not need your highest level thing. Uh, you could certainly suggest it, but if you're like, no, I actually think that this other $200 thing is great. Like you're going to just lead mentally for yourself. Like, okay, this is going to be the thing I'm going to offer. And a lot of that in there can even be done like by just getting curious, by doing voice to the customer research, by doing that asking process that can actually help you refine your messaging, your copy, all of your marketing. That is really huge. Then when you know the thing that you're going to offer,

then the next ones are, uh, E is expect the yes. So just like take a beat in your mind, trust that you did everything right and feel really confident going into the final thing, which is S for suggest. So sales. So then you are going to suggest what that thing is and then just wait. Like you don't need to fill the silence, take a sip of water. If you need to just wait and see, like you can say, I think that you should do, you know, I think my XYZ program is perfect. Here's why tell me what you think about that. And then just see, see what they have to say. And that is really what it comes down to. And I think a lot of times we get super hung up that everything has to be perfect right

at the outset of what we're selling. And sometimes if you have noticed like again and again and again, you are getting similar objections. It can be a really great way to ask yourself, like, does something about this offer need to change to actually make it more of a hell yes for people? And a lot of times when we can do that and not worry about getting it so like perfect from the outset, we can actually adjust what we have. And then suddenly, like we are just getting, we are closing sales left and right because we were asked, like actually asking questions and opening ourselves up for honest answers.

There, Erica, there are so many good things in there and I'm trying to write them all down. So a few of the things that I just absolutely love is get curious. I wish, again, I would have learned that earlier is, is if you come from a place of curiosity, as opposed to walking in thinking about your pitch or what you're going to say or whatever, the conversation leads to more often than not an obvious answer or an obvious no answer, right? Like, yes, I can help you or no, I can't. But in getting curious, it's the, how can I help you? What is the best fit? And oftentimes people say themselves, the things that need to be said to, and I put in air quotes, convince them to do it, right? They'll tell you the reasons

why they would take action on something. So I love the getting curious. I don't know exactly how you said it, but I think too of treating it as a test, right? Every conversation as a salesperson is an opportunity to implement and test and uncover and learn what's working, what's not working. I think for women, a lot of times these perfectionist tendencies kick in, like we have to get it right the first time around or we suck. And it's like, no, honestly, I think for the most part, most people in sales are testing for years. It's just this ongoing test of how to get better, what tweaks you can make, what works, what doesn't, how to convert in a good way faster. So I love that. I love the expect the yes. I think a lot of times women expect the no, and they start rationalizing and reasoning and like saying so

many things. And it's like the customer or client or perspective, they didn't say anything yet. And we fill the space with all the, like we're reacting to the reasons why they wouldn't. Like sometimes people are like, well, now you're just talking me out of it, right? So yeah, that shut up, say your thing, be quiet, take the sip of water, good tip.

And then finally, I think probably the be quiet, take the sip of water. Good tip. And then finally, I think probably the favorite part is the final ask suggest. I know it wouldn't work in your acronym, but recommend people are considering working with you because of your experience, because of your expertise, because of your knowledge. And a lot of times I think people give options and it's like, so what do you think? Or what do you want to do? And it's like, no, you're leading again in a good way. You're the expert. You tell them based on your, you know, your products, you know, your solutions, you know, you know, your work. It's so important to put a stake in the ground

and say, this is what I would do if I were in your shoes. It's still their decision, but that suggests to action, right? Is really, I just, I think an important leadership quality. Okay. So Erica, will you just quickly repeat the sales? Yep. So set a welcoming tone. A is ask good questions. L is listen, limit, and lead. E is expect the yes. And then S is suggest. Okay.

Awesome. Now I would imagine even if we do that, because there's no such thing as perfection, people are going to have what in the sales world are called objections and my experience is a lot of women treat questions as objections and it's like no that's just a logical question it's just a conversation they're not quote-unquote objecting my question is how do we anticipate prevent overcome objections and then how do we make sure that we don't treat normal conversation and questions as objections? It's really making sure like, so, you know, if I'm, if I'm suggesting to somebody like, Hey, based on what you told me, like, yes, I, I do have some lower investment offers, but truthfully for what, you know, where you're

at and what you want to accomplish and everything, I really do think that you should enroll in my highest tier one. And here's why, um, that's okay too. And they also have the agency to just flat out, reject that and say, no, thank you. But I'm also anticipating if they're going to spend that kind of money with me, they might have some questions. Like you said, like just normal questions, right? Like, uh, have you worked with businesses like mine before? Can you tell me about that? Um, you know, what can I expect to be able to reasonably achieve in six months? Some of these things can feel like a personal attack, right?

Or like they're questioning your expertise or like they are doubting you or anything like that. And maybe sometimes that's the case. Generally, it's not though. Usually they literally just want the information so that they can feel confident about their investment. In what ways can we anticipate? Yeah, I would say, you know, think about the questions that come up often, and those can

go into like an FAQ section on your sales page. You can also weave in like some sales copy into your marketing and everything that kind of like meets people where they're at already with those questions and addresses them before they even have to bring them up. Right. So just kind of weaving in through like, as you're building out a sales page or you're writing social media posts, just getting really clear and thinking very specifically about that person that you are speaking to, who is the ideal fit for that offer. And then really touching on some of, you know, what specifically are they experiencing that you, that your offer is going to directly help them with and kind of putting that in there so that they can already see and be very clear on like, oh yeah, this is for me. I, I can recognize that this is for me. And then also having really good, um,

feedback from other people and putting that, you know, testimonials, social proof, like, so people can actually see and not just like, oh, I love her. She's like really nice to work with, but like actual, you know, is there data, is there specifics, is there, um, actual results that have been achieved that you can weave in there so people can see like, oh yes, this does get the results that it says it does. And I think too, just also being really transparent, like, you know, listing prices and even on an intake form, just asking, you can ask a lot of really good questions on an intake form to pre-qualify people to make sure, like, like you said, the busy thing, right? If you know that your program requires at minimum

two hours a week, put that in there and make them sign off on that. Can you confidently dedicate a minimum of two hours a week to this program? Yes or no. Like, and if they say no, maybe you do have something else that you could offer them instead. Or maybe you just say like, I'm really sorry, but now is not the right time. If something ever changes, please reach back out. I want to end with just a quick question. I've heard people often say sales is about relationship or are the best salespeople build the best relationship. In your opinion, is sales about building and retaining relationships, or is that not as important as people claim it to be? In my opinion, I think it is the most important thing. I think that if you want to do a human, if you want to run a human

centered integrity driven ethical business, building relationships with people and respecting those relationships is crucial. And that also means like respecting when people say no. And that doesn't mean, you know, if you're a course creator and you have thousands of students, obviously you're not going to have a personal relationship with all of them, but you should also honor their humanity and honor their feedback and honor their experience and all of those things. I think that some of the most successful people you've never heard of are that way because they aren't spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on paid ads so

that they get into your feed. They are working very quietly with incredibly loyal clients who are happy to refer them because they know at the end of the day that they really care and that they will honor people's investment. Very well said. Thank you, Erica.

Yeah. If you're listening and you want to learn more about Erica and her work or you want that free downloadable guide for her no sleaze sales method, um, visit Erica Tebbins.com. So E R I K A T E B B E N S. So Erica Tebbins.com. We'll put it in show notes or follow her on Instagram at Erica Tebbins consulting. And you can listen to her podcast. If you want to grow and get better at sales, it's called sell it sister and available anywhere you listen to

podcasts. Erica, thank you so much for joining us today. This was a really fun conversation. Yeah. Thank you. I loved it. All right. If sales and self-promotion is ultimately about confidence, courage, and impact, then it's time we all get to it. Because if not you, then who? And if not now, then when? Let's support, promote, encourage, celebrate higher, say yes to ourselves and other women who are bravely putting themselves out there. This is woman's work.