This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 072 / Setting And Communicating Healthy Boundaries with Diann Wingert

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

Setting boundaries is a way of communicating your value and saying no to things that don’t serve you will actually build your confidence. I say this with love, but setting boundaries is something we ALL get to work on, because I don’t know many women who do it well - and I myself continue to work on this skill. Here to guide us through this immensely important topic is Diann Wingert - a business mindset coach, and licensed psychotherapist - who’s expertise both with mental health and with coaching female entrepreneurs makes her an expert in mindset, preventing burnout and setting healthy boundaries. You’re not a machine, you don’t have unlimited capacity, and time is a limited and fixed resource. So when you say “yes” to one thing, you’re automatically saying “no” to something else… and some yeses will cost you more than a thousand noes ever will. My friend Kristin Burke recently shared a quote that says “Decide what kind of life you really want, and then say no to everything that isn’t that.” That, my friends, is my new favorite definition of what it looks, feels and sounds like to be doing Woman’s Work. To learn more about the work Diann is doing please visit: www.diannwingertcoaching.com To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at www.nicolekalil.com

Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. One of the most effective ways to teach people to respect you is by valuing your resources, time, energy, effort, focus. I am Nicole Kalil and you're tuning into another episode of This Is Woman's Work, where individually and collectively, we're redefining what it looks, feels, and sounds like to be doing woman's work. And in case you haven't picked up on this yet, I believe that means doing whatever the fuck feels authentic, true, and right for you. And in case you haven't noticed yet, at the time of this recording, I'm recovering from

the flu, so I might sound a little raspy. Unfortunately, I don't get the cool, throaty, sexy voice when I get sick. I go more the route of phlegmy with a side of occasional hacking. So I apologize in advance for that. But we're not here to talk about my voice. We're here today to talk about boundaries, more specifically about setting and communicating healthy ones and how we as women can shift our mindset towards seeing boundaries as a way to communicate our value, setting limits as an act of self-care, and how saying no to things that don't serve you

will actually build your confidence. I say this with love, but this is something we all get to work on because I don't know many women who do this well, and this is something I continue to work on myself. Here to guide us through this immensely important topic is Diane Wingert, a business mindset coach and licensed psychotherapist whose expertise both with mental health and with coaching female entrepreneurs makes her an expert in mindset, preventing burnout, and setting healthy boundaries. Diane, I can't wait to dive into this conversation. And I also very much appreciate you joining us today. I am so here for this. Good. Okay. So I want to start with maybe kind of an obvious question is why do women struggle with this so much more

than our male counterparts? We struggle with maintaining boundaries, with saying no. And we often have a ton of guilt that I don't see as much in men. So why is that? Why does this impact us as women more? Great starting question, Nicole. And I think to let people get off their own case from the get-go, it starts with the brain. Female brains are actually different than male brains. I know this is a controversial topic and there may be some people that are like, peace out right now. But the truth is that female brains are actually functioning different and there are even structural differences.

One of them is that we actually have more connections between the left logical side and the right emotional side. What difference does that make? A lot, as it turns out, because the more cross traffic and crosstalk there is between the hemispheres, the more women see everything as connected and everything as related. So it's so much more difficult for us to compartmentalize in the way that is seems to be easier for most men to do starting with our brain. That's number one. Number two, also on the biological category is our hormones. From the time you have your first period until the time you go through the glorious release of menopause, you will be under the influence of a very powerful psychoactive substance known as estrogen. Estrogen can be called the tend and befriend hormone for a very good reason. It literally

biologically programs us to care about others, to be interested in others, to have empathy and compassion for others, and yes, to put others' needs ahead of our own. So even if I weren't to say another word after this, you can actually say from your own neurobiology that you were set up to have trouble saying no and putting yourself first. Am I right? Fascinating. And it makes sense to me. Right. So it's, it starts with that. And then we go on to cultural conditioning. And I know you and I both talk a lot to our respective audience about cultural conditioning, feminine conditioning, and, you know, just the name of your show, women's work. Right. And obviously it's very tongue in cheek because we do whatever the fuck we want, but not so many years ago, not so many years ago, we were expected by our gender

to have specific roles and to be completely excluded from others. And there are still many women who are struggling with the effects of that intergenerationally. Is it okay giving ourselves permission to do things? So little girls are expected to be nice, to be quiet, to be friendly, to be sweet know, be cooperative and all that. Whereas, you know, moving around in your seat, punching and shoving, pushing to the front of the line, talking out of turn, things like that. They're much more tolerated among boys. In fact, the expression boys will be boys is like older than dirt, right? So I think partly we've got our biology, then we've got our cultural conditioning, which is that this is how you're supposed to act simply because you're female.

And we are socially rewarded for those feminine behaviors from a very early age. So I happen to have ADHD. That means I have impulsive behavior and will spontaneously talk out of turn or act very excitable, make too much noise, take up too much room. And so in childhood, that got me a lot of negative feedback. Whereas if I was a boy, teachers might have been inconvenienced by it, but it wouldn't have been shamed in quite the same way. So I think our culture expects different things of us as girls too. And I think one of the things that women are most terrified of and terrorized by is the, what I call the other S word, selfish. We would rather be called dumb, lazy, fat, boring,

whatever, than selfish because a woman that's called selfish is like, that's true evil. But when you think about it, what's so wrong about being selfish? Selfish just means you are focused on yourself, but there's a lot of stigma and negative baggage around that. So we kind of start associating, taking care of ourselves, setting limits, asking for what we want, asking for more than we have. All of that falls in the selfish category and starts to become a huge constraint to actually getting what we need and want from life. Oh God, Diane, you said so many good things in there. And what really popped into my head is we're taught that putting forward our own wants and needs is selfish behavior as opposed to healthy behavior. I so, so, so agree. I mean, think about it. You know, you're in a high school

football game or a professional football game for that matter. And when a player is invited to address the crowd or someone in the crowd, what do they say? Eight times out of 10. Thanks, mom. Why are they thanking their mom? Because mom sacrificed her own needs to get up at the ass crack of dawn to drive them to the away games in another state. The moms were the ones who didn't get their nails done because they needed the money for a tutor or practice. So I think moms are culturally, and so we go from your biological programming, your cultural programming.

Now there's the mom programming. And I'm sorry to say, I've been on the planet a few more decades than you have. And it hasn't really changed as much as I would have hoped, you know, seeing the women's movement growing, but kind of stalling out in a lot of areas, especially for women of color and trans women and other marginalized subgroups of women. But I think, you know, we still have the second shift, Nicole, most women are working inside or outside the home, and they still have the majority of the responsibility for maintaining the family, maintaining the children, maintaining the social life, maintaining the spiritual life, just making sure that everybody that resides under that roof, pets, older parents, you know, that we have responsibility for making sure everyone is okay.

So for a woman, it's like, I will take care of myself. I want to take care of myself. I want to work on my personal development, my self-care, but first I have to take care of everyone else. Well, unless you are a complete recluse, and I don't just mean a COVID-induced recluse, but the list just keeps getting longer. And that means you just keep dropping further down. But even inching yourself up a couple of notches feels risky, feels scary. And not just because we might anticipate that other people won't approve or that we might have pushback.

Most of the pushback is coming from our own minds. Like, is it actually okay for me to tell my kid, you need to wait because mommy needs to do this first? Yeah. One of the things that I think is probably the least popular of my beliefs is that it is important for me to have boundaries with my child. Now, I love my daughter. I'd step in front of a bus for her. I want nothing but the best. And yes, there is an element as a parent of putting somebody else's wants and needs, at least in alignment with yours, if not ahead in some moments. But this idea that me, that I as a mother would sacrifice everything for my daughter or not have any boundaries or, you know, sort of let her run the show, it does not resonate. I want more than anything for JJ to have healthy boundaries as an adult.

And I think the very best thing I can do to help ensure that that happens is to demonstrate them now. I can tell her until I'm blue in the face, but people learn by experiencing and observing. And so I'm a big fan of us as women shedding this notion, this idea that being a good mom is about putting your child first in all forms or fashion. I really think if my goal is to produce a healthy and productive citizen of the world, that the best thing I can do is to both for myself, have boundaries and for her future, demonstrate them. I am 100% in alignment with this. I had to make peace with the notion that the way I conduct my life, the boundaries I set within my business, within my relationships, even in my family, that there are many people who would think or do think that they're selfish,

that they're overly restrictive, that maybe I'm even withholding. I had to make peace with knowing that other people aren't going to agree or approve, but I don't actually need anyone else's permission to live my life on my terms. And what I have learned is that we teach people to respect us. And one of the most effective ways to teach people to respect you is by valuing your resources, time, energy, effort, focus, attention. My kids need to schedule time with me, my adult children. I'm very busy, They're busy. And instead of thinking mom should be available whenever I call her, whenever I text her, whenever I need her, like I'm not your beck and call girl. I'm not anybody's beck and call girl. So if you want my undivided attention on you and whatever it is

that you're bringing to me, I want to give that with you with no reservations and no restrictions. And to do that, I need to have some control over when it happens. Now, if it's a legit emergency, you just got in a car accident or something, but if it's just mom, I want to talk to you about my relationship with my girlfriend, or I'm thinking about changing jobs, or I don't know which card to buy, whatever it is like, no, I want to give you my full attention. And so you need to get on my calendar. And I remember the first time I shared that with somebody, they were like, wait, you make your kids schedule an appointment with you. Let me be clear.

I don't make anybody do anything. They choose to do that because they know that my undivided attention is exactly what they want and nothing less. Yeah. I have a feeling there are some people listening that are, you know, either feeling uncomfortable or heavily disagreeing, but I think it's worth considering. And I agree. I think, you know, learning comes from the discomfort. So let's talk about, you coined the term, I believe the default. Yes. I love that. That resonates with me.

And I've heard from thousands of women at this point through coaching conversations who express they have a hard time saying no. Talk to us about the default yes. The default yes is my term for how frequently and habitually women agree to things before taking even a brief second to consider whether they actually want to. It is the net result of all the years of our cultural conditioning and our biological programming and the fact that who doesn't like to make people happy? It's so simple. When people ask you to volunteer for their committee, participate in their summit, give their kid a ride since you're going there anyway always say yes, brains grab on to habits really quick. And so when you're

used to saying yes, you will keep on saying yes. And you'll just bypass whether this is in alignment with your own priorities, whether this is in alignment with your own values, whether this is in alignment with what else you have going on at the moment that it's now going to be in competition with. So we just keep Tetris in our life by saying yes to things and figuring out where to fit it in. I think because it pleases other people, it pleases us too. It makes us feel good to be a yes person. I mean, at least temporarily, at least temporarily. And, you know, because I work with women who have been very successful in corporate nonprofit or academic careers, and now they're struggling as entrepreneurs.

One of the reasons is because of the default. Yes. What makes you employee of the year is going to fuck you up when you start working for yourself because you get popular and well-liked and admired and well-regarded in the workplace for going, what's the term, above and beyond. That is the definition of a person who doesn't have boundaries. And in fact, in most places is being exploited. I have been the woman in the past who bragged about doing the work of two or even three people and getting paid for one. And now I'm like, what the actual fuck were you thinking? I wasn't thinking I was not thinking I was in the default.

Yes, because I was making other people happy. And let's be honest, the default yes also means you don't have to develop the ability to have challenging conversations, which most people are conflict avoiders. Most people would sell their soul to the devil before they will have a difficult conversation with a person that's in authority over them, or they just don't want to disappoint. And I don't know if you read the book, The Four T four tendencies by Gretchen Rubin. I often refer to it in my own coaching. I haven't know you will love it. The four tendencies is basically it's sort of hardwired into your DNA that you have one of these tendencies and it's only for one specific thing, how we deal with expectations. So you see why it's

an important part of this conversation. 42% of people are obligers. Obligers are exactly what they sound like they would be. People who do what others expect of them. Well, that often means they're letting themselves down on the regular, because if you're always doing what others expect, you're probably not doing what you expect of yourself. And the majority of people are obligers. I think the numbers are even higher for women. So to be able to even stop and think about whether you might want to say no, or even practicing that, or even with a lot of apologizing and explaining, you, you have to be able to recognize that you have the default yes. And the default yes always has to be followed by installing a pause button.

I have actually had women memorize little mini scripts for when someone asks you to do something. For example, you get invited to be on a committee at your kid's school or whatever. It could be anything, but it's definitely going to take time, energy, effort, focus, and opportunity costs, meaning you won't be able to do anything else while you're doing that thing. So I made a rule for myself because I was always saying yes, always overextending and then resenting some of the commitments that I made because I didn't stop myself and ask if I actually had the time and if I actually wanted to do it. So now my default is, wow, that sounds like an interesting opportunity, or thank you for asking me. I'm glad you thought of me. So you're kind of complimenting the person. That sounds like an interesting opportunity, or thank you for asking me. I'm going to need to take a look at my other commitments and get back to you. And again, as I mentioned, I have ADHD, so I can be forgetful, especially if they've ambushed me and I didn't expect this and it's face-to-face, I might not remember it later.

So I might finish it with, if you don't hear from me by end of week, circle back and remind me of this conversation. So I have left the responsibility for getting that need met with the person who's making the request I've given myself space to actually think about whether I can and whether I choose to and I've not implied that it's going to be a yes so that they feel entitled to be upset pissed off angry you know whatever. I'm literally just giving myself some space. And oftentimes during that time, when I do realize I can do that and I want to, or I choose to, I feel really good about making the decision. It's a resentment-free way to choose. And if I don't want to do it, I've given

myself a little time to come up with a gracious out that I don't feel put on the spot to deliver. So what I think is so important about that example, Diane, is boundary setting for a lot of us is a two-part event. It's the first part is creating and setting the boundary, deciding what we want our boundaries to be. But the second and often more challenging part is creating and setting the boundary, deciding what we want our boundaries to be. But the second and often more challenging part, at least for the women I talk to, is the communicating of the boundaries, right? And so that tactic is one I employ myself and work done with some of my coaching clients.

And I just love the example you gave, but being prepared and having something memorized and ready to go for when somebody asks, because it's inevitable, especially if you're a kick ass woman who's, you know, accomplishing big things. You know, there's that expression. If you want something done, ask a busy person that people are going to flock to you and ask you to do things. And if you're not prepared with a response that gives you the time and space to actually choose, then you're going to end up with the default yes. And I think one thing that

you said was really important is how often we resent that when it still was us that chose. So, okay. So very good things in there. You've mentioned this a couple of times. I want to circle back on it is, is continuum. Boundaries, bandwidth, burnout. If you aren't setting any boundaries and you're not respecting your bandwidth, you will burn out. It's inevitable. It's just a matter of when and how badly it will be and how long it'll take you to recover. I think in my experience, Nicole, many women actually know what their bandwidth is. They just don't respect it and accept it. For example, I had a really serious car accident many years ago, and I have lived with chronic pain for half my life. I didn't used to respect just how much of an energy drain that was. But as time went by, I started paying attention to some of the symptoms of when I exceed my bandwidth.

So I will share those because I think they are actually pretty general, even though not everybody obviously has chronic pain. Fatigue is one of the clear signs. Resentment is another clear sign. Irritability, anxiety, feelings of like low mood. that diminish your mood, energy and motivation are usually a result of exceeding your bandwidth. Bandwidth changes over time and stages of life. And different stages of life, you need more sleep, you need more rest, You need more time between coaching calls. You need more alone time. Different phases of a woman's life in terms of pregnancy, perimenopause, and so forth,

your bandwidth is going to change. But I think when there's a mismatch between who we think we're supposed to be and who we actually are. It's a lack of not only self-care, but a lack of self-awareness that we keep trying to negotiate with that. The reality is almost all women are exceeding their bandwidth at least some of the time. How do we know? Too much eating snack foods, drinking too much, losing ourselves and binge watching of things. Those are buffering activities that are often a somewhat, but not really effective methods of self-soothing when actually we would be much better served to go for a walk or take a fricking nap too much coffee or say no to something or something. It's like, well, we just, we, because we don't say no, we have to keep doing these other things to keep ourselves propped up too much coffee, you know?

And so it's like, what, what would be so bad if you actually needed to cut back? What would be so bad if you actually needed to take a nap in the middle of the day to be able to serve your morning clients and your afternoon clients, you're not failing. You're not weak. You're not behind. You're just respecting the body, mind, and brain you have instead of the perfect one you think you're just respecting the body, mind, and brain you have instead of the perfect one you think you're supposed to have. Oh, yeah. I mean, I have experienced and lived literally everything you said, other than I don't have chronic pain, but all of the experiences and all of the self-soothing I've done all of that. And I'm just getting better and better at recognizing, you know, the symptoms, as you said,

and thinking about what I want my bandwidth to be and what I can say. And sort of letting go of the shoulds and the, like the way it has always been done. You know, I worked in a corporate environment for many, many, many years. And the idea of working out in the middle of the day or, you know, time blocking in certain ways would not have gone well in that environment.

And it took me a long time to realize, but this is what is right for me. And this is what actually produces not only the most amount of energy and the best feeling, but also the best results for me in business is to sort of let go of, you know, the very masculine culture of how we do things, when we do things, how much we do things, work hard at all costs, all that stuff, and really connect to what works for me. So one of the things I know we agree on is that setting limits is an act of self-care. I would go as far as to say that setting limits and having boundaries, it helps build confidence and not doing it actually destroys your confidence. So I know we agree on this. Talk to us about this concept that boundaries and

saying no is actually a method of self-care. I think a lot of people understand that intuitively, but if they haven't acted on it and really learned the benefits of it, it might be a hard sell. First of all, based on all the reasons we've talked about, our biology, our cultural conditioning, and our own habits, I mean, most of our behavior is not intentional. It's habitual and unconscious. And if we see everyone around us not saying no, not setting boundaries, getting the gold stars for going above and beyond, of course, we think that's the norm. And for human beings, we have always tried to stick with the herd as a way of feeling

safe. And sticking with the herd might literally mean you live where you grew up. You've had the same friends your whole life. That's what feels safe. And stepping away from that in any way legitimately feels like you're going to perish because that's how we're biologically programmed. But if you aren't able to recognize that you might actually need to do things differently, you won't get there. I mean,

who's going to give you permission? Who's going to say, you don't have to work eight hours at a stretch. You could work three hours in the morning and take a two hour break and then work three hours later, but you kind of have to figure that out for yourself and have a little courage to do it. I think one of the traps I see a lot of women get into is that they have a new business or their business hasn't yet reached revenue levels where it's truly profitable and consistent. So they say yes to the wrong clients or they say to discounts, or they say yes to giving all kinds of extra things. And then they start that relationship feeling kind of resentful, but then continue to do too much and continue to feel resentful. There's not one ounce of confidence building in any of that. I can confirm the same. The more I've said no to things that aren't the

right fit for me or that don't serve me, the more my confidence as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, as a professional has increased. Diane, thank you so much for your time, your expertise. If you're listening and you want to connect with or follow Diane, you can visit her website at dianewingercoaching.com. We'll put it in the show notes or listen to her podcast. It's called The Driven Woman and available wherever you listen to podcasts or follow her on Instagram at Coach Diane Winger. Thank you so much, Diane. This has been a great conversation. I could talk about boundaries and mindset and all of that all day long. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I loved it too, Nicole. All right. As Diane says, to avoid burnout, you must incorporate bandwidth and boundaries into your business model. And I'd add in order to build your confidence, you need to stop saying yes to everyone and everything else and start saying yes to more of what serves you and what's important. Remember, when you say yes to one thing, you're automatically saying no to something else because you're not a machine. You don't have unlimited capacity or energy, and time is a limited and fixed resource. So if you say yes to avoid saying no, because you're afraid of how you'll look, or someone will think less of you, or to disappoint somebody, or to people please, or to get validation, or any number of unhealthy reasons we say yes to

something that doesn't match our passion, priorities, or purpose, please remember that that yes will most likely mean you're saying no to something else. No to your personal, mental, or emotional health. No to something you actually want to do, but never have the time. No to standing up for yourself. No to free time. No to uninterrupted focused time with your kids, significant other, or friends. Know to trust in yourself to take care of yourself. Some yeses cost you more than a thousand no's ever will. And your confidence isn't built through the opinions or validation of others. Validation is for parking and other people's opinions are none of your business. My friend Kristen Burke shared a quote that says, decide what kind of life you really want and then say no to everything that isn't that. And that my friends is my new

favorite definition of what it looks, feels, and sounds like to be doing woman's work.