This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 075 / Leadership Solutions with Stefanie Johnson

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

So much is changing in how, when and where we work and do business, and the leaders that stay committed to the way things have always been done are on the fast track to irrelevance. So what are the leadership skills of tomorrow? How important is the ability to build and lead inclusive teams? Here to discuss these questions and so much more is Dr. Stefanie Johnson - Associate Professor at the Lead School of Business at CU Boulder, who’s received several millions in grant funding to study leadership. She works with big name companies to implement evidence based practices and increase inclusion, and is the author of the national best seller, “Inclusify - Harnessing the Power of Uniqueness and Belonging to Build Innovative Teams.” The time has come for leaders (men and women alike) to lead. We can no longer delegate the work of inclusion, invest in one and done type solutions or “kick this can down the road” any further. It will require an investment of time, energy, commitment and money. It will also require leaders to be willing to get uncomfortable, to be willing to say “I don’t know,” and to do an honest accounting of where they’re falling short. It’s a good thing being a leader requires us to do what is right, not just what is easy. To learn more about Stefanie and the work she does you can visit her website at: www.drstefjohnson.com To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at www.nicolekalil.com

Coming up on this episode of This Is Woman's Work. But when it comes to inclusion, I think most people really want to be inclusive. Like they want different opinions. They believe in creating an environment where everyone can belong. They just don't always know how to do it. You're tuning in to the This Is Woman's Work podcast, and I'm your host, Nicole Kalil. As a speaker and consultant, I've had the opportunity to work with and observe companies, both large and small, from the inside. And one of the things I've come to believe is that many organizations are focused on fixing the wrong

problem. In an effort to attract, develop, retain, and identify leadership talent in women, they're investing in additional resources, training, events, and programs for women. And while those things can be helpful, at least in the short term, it implies to me that there is a woman problem that needs to be fixed. But I no longer see it that way. I'd submit to you that organizations don't have a gender problem, but rather a leadership one. And if leadership and thereby cultures and opportunities are the problem, what we actually need to see long-term results, real results, is a leadership solution. So much is changing in how, where, and when we work and how we do business. And the leaders that stay committed to the way

things have always been done are on the fast track to irrelevance. So what are the leadership skills of tomorrow? How important is the ability to build and lead inclusive teams? Here to discuss these questions and so much more is Dr. Stephanie Johnson, Associate Professor at the Leeds School of Business at CU Boulder, who's received several millions in grant funding to study leadership. She works with big name companies to implement evidence-based practices and increase inclusion and is the author of the national bestseller, Inclusify, harnessing the power of uniqueness and belonging to build innovative teams.

She's presented at the White House, around the world, and has been featured in The Economist, Wall Street Journal, Time, and so many more, and was recommended to me by Adam Grant, somebody whose opinion I hold in the highest regard. Steph, I can't wait to talk leadership. Thank you for being here, and let's dive in. I know first and foremost, you're a researcher, so let me start by asking, what are the most important and maybe the most surprising things you've learned as it relates to leadership and inclusion?

Absolutely. And I have to say, thank you so much, Nicole, for that intro. And I love everything you said. I think the, the idea of let's send women to more training is really kind of, it's exactly what you said. It's missing the mark. I don't think it's women that are the problem. Like, you know, I think we all play a role in creating this problem. I don't think it's women that are the problem. You know, I think we all play a role in creating this problem. I don't think it's men that are the problem. You know, I think it's quite right that it's systems and what we expect and how we develop leaders. That's the issue.

And that's really what I studied in Inclusify is what leaders can do to create diverse and inclusive environments and maybe the subtle ways that they often get it wrong and how it just takes, you know, maybe a pivot to get it right. You asked for the surprising things that I found or the unexpected in my research. And, you know, I think there's probably two things that really stand out that I didn't expect. You know, one is just how well-intentioned I think most leaders really are when it comes to inclusion. You know, even for diversity, I'll say I meet people, work with people who say they're just, they don't believe in efforts for diversity. It's going to happen naturally, you know, hire the best person for the job, whatever it might be.

But when it comes to inclusion, I think most people really want to be inclusive. Like they want different opinions. They believe in creating an environment where everyone can belong. They just don't always know how to do it. The other thing, I think that was the surprise that I haven't really heard of before in research was how the number of leaders, I'll say primarily majority group members. So most often I would say it was white men who were now on the bandwagon to promote diversity and inclusion had the, you know, they really had the best intentions, but kind of approached it from a, like I call them the white Knights. They were going to be saviors of women and champions for diversity

and in doing so actually created conflict and undermined the women that they were trying to promote right because if you know it's great that they are on the bandwagon like I I actually kind of feel bad even giving them this feedback. Even today, I'm like, well, you really do have the best intentions, but you know, no, one's going to promote or buy into diversity because someone yells at them or shames them. And no, one's going to promote women into leadership because someone's telling you, you have to promote her because she's a woman and you're a sexist, right? They're going to do it.

We're going to see more success with greater women in the highest levels of leadership by focusing on their competence and the things that they're doing that are really adding to the organization. Again, that's why this is like a small pivot because we know those women are competent, but it's like the messaging around promoting women in leadership. It needs to be focused on women's competence.

Yeah. And what they add to the organization and the team, even in maybe their differences, it's interesting. One of the things that you, there were a handful of things that I want to circle back on, but one of the things that you said that really jumped out to me is that similar to my experience, you've got a lot of well-intentioned leaders, but there is a lot of, or more of a lean towards a masculine approach to leadership. Let me tell people, let me, you know, direct, let me sort of boss people into this. And ironically, almost, I think what is called for in leadership to create more inclusive environments is some of that more feminine style of leadership, more empathy, more listening, more vulnerability and transparency. It's sort of

like the way we've done leadership in the past may not work in creating inclusive environments. Am I making any sense? Yes. Oh my gosh. So I wrote this article in Bloomberg about this topic. Like I think we've seen in 2020 and 2021, the most successful leaders are those who are approaching their organizations right now with empathy. I think it's the leadership. It's probably always been, you know, among the most essential leadership skills, but in a chaotic and high crisis environment, I think is the most essential leadership skill. And there've been a couple of studies, you know, a handful of studies showing that amidst the pandemic, the leaders in government, at least, who really performed the best were actually women leaders. And I don't think it has, I don't think it's a gender thing.

I think it's that, you know, women tend to approach things with more empathy. And I think that's what people needed while we're in a crisis situation. So on the global level, you can see it in countries that were led by women leaders, but even in the U.S., this great study that was in the Journal of Applied Psychology showed that states led by women leaders performed better in the pandemic. And then there was some research in organizations that was in Harvard Business Review that showed the same thing, that the teams that performed the best had leaders with greater empathy and that tended to be women leaders and so maybe it's time to rethink that you know you call them leadership prototypes but the prototype for leaders are you know it's like command and control it's the person who's

the loudest and the strongest and takes up the most space. And I can, you know, I can see why that makes you think someone is leader-like, but it doesn't necessarily make them effective. And I think that's where the gap is. Like they might fit your, well, that seems like someone who wants to be a leader. They, you know, are taking control. And I think right now what people need is actually the leader who's going to be humble, listen, have empathy. And so it's not the prototype. It is a prototype of leader. Like I'll say of all the prototypes of leaders, one is sensitive. And it's just not one of the stronger prototypes, but it does mean that I think those prototypes really need to change. We need to start thinking of leaders as like servant leaders, not as you use the word boss.

So I'm going to say, you know, bosses. Right. Yeah. No, I, there's so much of that. I agree with, and I also agree. I don't think, you know, these white men are sitting in a room going, how do we make things harder for women? I do think they're well-intentioned, but you mentioned there are some ways that leaders are inadvertently missing the mark as they're trying to create inclusion. Can you give maybe some examples there? Yeah. So, you know, the one is the white knight kind of style of like, I'm going to lift, I'm going to save people.

And I say, you know, lift people up, don't carry them. Like studies show that men who, you know, they're supporting diversity often like give women less challenging assignments. Others city show they give them less harsh feedback, less critical feedback. Well, you know, what do we need to be successful? We need challenging assignments, stretch assignments, opportunities to demonstrate our success. And we need the feedback to know when we have areas for development. So we have to make sure as leaders that when we're thinking of supporting diversity and supporting women, we're actually still thinking about what it takes to be successful, right? So that's one. You know, the other, at the other end of the spectrum are leaders who are very effective at creating belonging. Like I think of inclusion as uniqueness and belonging, like you have to

support people's unique identities so they can be themselves and you need to create an environment where we can belong. And I think a lot of leaders or what I saw is a lot of over-indexed on the belonging part. So we want to create a culture of belonging. And that means we hire people who fit our culture, culture fits. We reinforce behaviors that fit the culture.

We kind of eliminate behaviors that don't. And what you get is a really homogenous team where people don't feel safe to share different perspectives. And that's damaging for the innovation and effectiveness of the team, right? Like if I see a mistake about to happen, you better hope I'm willing to step up and share that mistake. But in a high culture fit environment, maybe I don't want to share it. I'm scared. Um, or I might not even see it. Right. If we're kind of homogenous,

if we're kind of seeing and thinking and having similar perspectives, I might not even see that potential problem because I'm not thinking differently. That's right. Yeah. You totally nailed it. You may not even have the different perspectives in the room um and when you do have different perspectives when people are changing who they are to fit all the time they really don't feel complete they don't feel included that's the they might look included but they don't feel included and so they want to go look for a different team where they can kind of be more authentic. Yeah. That jives with my experience. I feel like I sort of joke around that I had two full-time jobs, my job and the job of fitting in or being part of, or trying to, and I made a lot of mistakes in doing that, but I spent an abnormal amount of energy that could have been way more productively used trying to make it in the culture. Yeah. I always, I like the Fred Astaire, Ginger Roberts, Rogers quote of like Ginger Rogers did

everything that Fred Astaire did, but she did it backward and in heels. And I think it's that, it's like with how demanding workplaces and like right now dealing with you know COVID and just a constant I feel like chaos and stress that people are facing do we really need the extra cognitive load of hiding parts of ourselves or acting or trying to fit in like we would have more cognitive resources if we could just be. And, you know, maybe that's some of the reason we see, uh, productivity is actually increased amidst COVID, right? Because maybe people don't have to work so hard to fit in when they're working remotely. I mean, I'm wearing my fuzzy kitten slippers right now. I'm feeling

comfortable just like being myself in my home. And I think that's true for a lot of people. It's anecdotal, but I coach 10 women individually and every single one of the 10 had their best year ever in 2020 and is primed to beat it in 2021. And I think at least a good part of that is because they're not expending so much energy trying to fit in or be in the culture. And on top of that, most of these are mothers. So they had the added stress of dealing with kids and education and all the other stuff, in addition to running really successful businesses. It's been very interesting. Steph, any thoughts on unconscious bias training?

I know a lot of companies are investing in this for their leaders. Is this a good thing, not a good thing, somewhere in the middle? What are your thoughts? Yeah, I think it's somewhere in the middle. I mean, you know, the research shows that unconscious bias training at best changes people's attitudes, you know, right after the training.

It doesn't really change behavior. At worst, it can create backlash or reinforce stereotypes. That's not good. Right. So there's a real risk of negative effects of unconscious bias well let's just say you're doing good unconscious bias training um by a you know maybe like a social scientist someone who has a research background knows what they're doing knows the risks of not reinforcing stereotypes i think you're gonna you might change people's attitudes and so there's a lot of people who are like very anti-unconscious bias training but i will tell you in fortune, I think all of them offer some kind of unconscious bias

training. So I think it's not going away, but I just think of it as a tool to explain why we need systemic changes. And so if we're going to implement a process like dual anonymization, you know, removing names from resumes, or we're going to create a women's mentoring program or sponsorship program, or we're going to have a way to more effectively delegate office housework tasks, whatever it is. We're going to increase transparency. Unconscious bias training can be useful for explaining why we're doing this. So we need to anonymize resumes. Why? Because when we look at resumes, the name on the resume might bring up unconscious biases. Well, I don't have bias. Okay. You do. And that's why you need the unconscious bias training to say,

in fact, you do have unconscious biases. Like it, here's the studies that show that resumes mailed with the same exact resume experimentally manipulated with a male name or female name or a white name or a name of a person that might sound Asian American or black or Hispanic. They're given fewer callbacks or get offered less jobs. They are offered lower starting salaries and it's, these are fake people. So we know it's biased, right? I think that's the use. So then you can help explain why you're actually changing the systems and it's changing the systems that's going to make the difference. So the unconscious bias training can be thought of as part of a comms tool, like this is why we're changing things. But I think where it becomes

problematic is when unconscious bias training is offered as a, like, we're going to, this is our effort to mitigate bias. Well, it doesn't do that, you know, in and of itself. So don't pat yourself on the back for offering unconscious bias training, actually do the work of changing the systems and structures that create inequity. I love that. Like, I think it's a step, but it's only a step. And I am far too many leaders are kind of treating it as a check the box. Like I've done that. I'm done. As opposed to like, you've done that now, now you should have an abundant amount of work to do. I am intrigued on the sort of hiring part, more specifically now, as we think of promotion or getting people or women, people of color or women into leadership roles, there's this kind of idea floating around that

it's a pipeline problem. Like there just isn't enough talent and that explains why there's a lack of diversity at the top. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. I mean, there is a pipeline problem, but I think the problem is that there's leaks in the pipeline. So, you know, we know that women and women of color and people of color leave organizations at a higher rate than white men. They have a higher turnover rate. Then you ask them why. Well, you know, I don't have opportunities for advancement. There's no one who looks like me ahead of me. So what makes me think I'm actually going to be the first one to break through? Maybe, you know, the systems just aren't designed in a way to give recognition and rewards

to underrepresented groups. So of course they leave, right? Like they're going to go somewhere where they can be successful. Everyone goes somewhere where they can be successful. It makes sense. So I think for the pipeline problem, that's actually the problem. It's not that there's not enough women and women of color in the pipeline. It's that there's a leak in the pipeline because other systems are broken. And we know like there's a great study that showed that for things like, this is on membership and corporate boards, we can't get women on corporate boards,

right? This is a big problem. And the study showed that women are held to a higher standard than men as first-time board directors. They have to have more experience, better educational background, increased connections, whatever it is. And then we're like, well, why can't we get more women? Well, they don't meet the standard, but it's only because you keep shifting the standard, right? Like if you just get the standard the same, there would be women who met the standards. So that's not a pipeline problem. It's a systems problem. And then the same study showed that when women do get on boards, they receive less mentorship from others on the board, and they're less likely to get invited onto another board. So those are the problems. It's not that the women aren't there, it's that we're not doing

just quite a good enough job of creating equity. And again, like, you know, similar to the point of people are well-intentioned. I don't think it's hateful. I don't think people are like, oh, let's not mentor that women, those women. It's just like, we all mentor people who remind us of ourselves. It's similar to me. In fact, I have a mentee. She's a Mexican American first generation college student from Los Angeles. You don't know this about me, but I am a Mexican American first generation college student from Los Angeles. And when I met you, are you really? Yes. Now I just love you so much. We can be peer mentors for each other. love it it's like of course you just naturally

like I see something in her that reminds me of myself right like and it's kind of unconscious like I guess at this point for me it's conscious I'm admitting it but we do it naturally and I don't think it's ill-intended but it creates real problems when you you know, I might do this, but as like the one Mexican female business professor, it really doesn't put a dent in things. But if everyone's doing this and most senior leaders are white and male and they're mentoring and sponsoring other people who look like them, then it's really no wonder that we don't have equal access for women into leadership roles because those relationships are important. Yeah. And a lot of these higher level roles, when they come from outside,

the preferences for them to come via referral or recommendation, and just like what you were saying, it's like, well, who we recommend is who we know and who we hang out with. And a lot of times that's very homogenous. We, we tend to interact with people like us. And so, I mean, I'm curious your opinion, is that part of the problem as well? Absolutely. Yeah. I say I give people the advice to increase their network, be intentional about trying to get increased diversity in your network. And then, well, how do you do that? Well, I mean, some of it is just like trying to take the opportunity, but one specific action is if you belong to a professional society, go hang out at another, maybe like an affinity group, or, you know, like I go, I might be involved in the Latinx group in my society, but I can also join the black app group or LGBTQ plus. So I say

everyone should be involved in like three employee resource groups or networking groups, affinity groups, one that they they're their own group because that's great, right? Like it gives you support. Um, one that's a group that you're an ally supporter of and then one a group that you just want to learn more about and then when you go go to the events people say what are you doing here you can say listen we're going to be hiring i want to have i want to know the best talent i want to have access to attracting the best talent and so that's why I'm here is to meet people, to increase my network. And so in my experience, you know, people respond positively to it and it's just a gateway to start growing your network in a way that's different than the normal kind of organic way you grow your network. Yeah. You've given, that's a good tip and you've given several others already. Let me ask, in addition to what you've already shared, what should leaders and organizations be doing or be focused on right now based on your research?

Oh, yeah. So, you know, I'll say, I'm going to give you two answers to that. One is belonging. So I said, you know, these culture crusaders are really good at belonging. It's a challenge. People don't feel like they're unique and authentic selves. Well, I think we kind of feel like we can be our unique and authentic selves, more so today. For those who work in jobs where they're not remote, you know, maybe there's still challenges there. But for those who are remote, I think that part is being addressed to some extent. What I'm finding right now since the pandemic is that belonging is really, is plummeting. People don't feel connected to their colleagues or

their organization or their leaders or their teams. And I think that's part of why we're seeing this, you know, great resignation. People are leaving their jobs. If all your job is, is your, you know, what salary they offer you and how convenient it is for you, there's always going to be one that is slightly higher salary, slightly more convenient, whatever. It's people don't leave their jobs because they're embedded, because they care about the people, because they have, you know, other things like that have been stripped away. And so I think if we can find ways to still create that human connection, that people, they know you, like they take the time to get to know you and care about you, then I

think, you know, it's like self-serving, I guess that they'll be less likely to leave, but also everyone's work experience will be more enjoyable. I think that's the big one. The other just like practical thing is, you know, it's interesting to me in my research when people told stories, like I think you get a lot out of stories that people tell. The stories when they, when people didn't feel included included we're almost always in meetings so you're doing your job you know you're crushing it your clients love you you're whatever writing code whatever it might be I'm writing papers in my office and this is great and I have successes whatever

but then I go to a meeting with my colleagues and maybe those, my successes aren't recognized while other people's are, or on the walk down the hall, people are engaging in small chat about hanging out over the weekend or whatever it might've been that I wasn't invited to or during the meeting, we're having conversations and maybe this has happened to you. I think all women probably relate to this, but I can't get a word in edgewise or when I do speak, no one responds, silence. And someone interrupts me.

My ideas are attributed to other people, stuff like that. And then you leave and suddenly you feel like I am not included. I don't feel like part of this group. And so I think it, it seems like a small thing, but I think if you can fix the meeting space, it might start to create a snowball effect fixing bigger issues. I agree. Small tweaks with a big impact. Isn't it right? Like it,

you can be intentional about it because you know, the meeting's coming. So I say like, send the meeting questions to everyone in advance. So introverts have time to process. So if someone can't show up, they can email you their answers, curate a discussion with the intention of having everyone weigh in and give different perspectives. That's really what the meeting's about, right? If it's, if you just wanted everyone to agree, then just do the whole thing by email and save people the migraine of staring at their screen for another hour. And, but if you were trying to build off people, encourage different ideas. When people interrupt, stop them from interrupting. Like say, Nicole, I want to hear what you have to say. And I don't think Stephanie was finished. And so what she has to say is really important. We're going to let her finish. And then we'd love to

hear you next. And people will stop interrupting because the only reason we interrupt people is because it pays off. You get to say your idea. It feels good. If you're stopped, that behavior goes extinct. And you're allowing people space to speak, like if you don't chime in, like in a, you know, Zoom environment or on WebEx, I can send you a message and say, can you, Nicole, can you address this? I know your experience, you know, as a podcast host might be really useful here, or I really want to hear what you have to say. Or if you know people better, you know that it's okay calling them in out loud and say like, Hey, Nicole, what do you think?

I know, you know, you have this great experience in this area. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Yeah. I was in the meeting and I observed a man. So a woman kind of shared an idea and then, you know, I don't know, 15 minutes later, a man shares the same idea. And one of the leaders said something to the effect of, I love how you build, you built on Sarah's idea. Um, and it was just kind of like a nice moment where I was like, oh gosh, this leader gets it. Like he just

acknowledged that she shared this idea. Nobody responded, nobody, whatever. And then somebody else came along and it just sort of, I can't imagine how meaningful that moment must've been to that woman to be acknowledged and just for the leader to kind of be aware and be mindful that those things do happen and address it. Well, absolutely. I think that's huge. I mean, every woman has had that happen. I mean, I guess every woman listening to your podcast has had that happen. And you know, if you jump in and say, you know, I said that seven minutes ago and no one responded, you're, you imagine, and this is probably true, but your colleagues will say, it doesn't matter whose idea it was. Why do you care? Why do you care about claiming the credit? But it does matter, right? It does matter.

It matters when you're thinking of who's the person who came up with this great idea. You, women need the credit too. Yeah. Thank you, Steph, so much for your time, your wisdom, your research, the very important work that you're doing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. If you're listening and you want to learn more

about Dr. Stephanie Johnson, go to our website, Dr. Steph Johnson. So D-R-S-T-E-F-J-O-H-N-S-O-N.com. Or you can follow her on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter at Dr. Steph Johnson. And also, if you go to InclusifyBook.com, you can get more information. And also, go get her book, Inclusify. I'm sure it's available on Amazon, but I would encourage you to go to your local bookstore, even have them order it if they need to. Let's support our local bookstores. I'm going to close out by saying leadership is as important and complex as it ever was, if not more so today. And because no one person can be all things for all people, building strong, diverse teams, leaders with diverse strengths, experiences, perspectives, talents, and skills is of the utmost importance. Even the idea of what it takes to be a great leader is evolving. It's no longer defined only by the masculine lens of strength,

power, competitiveness, and being assertive, decisive, and direct. Leaders are being called to be more. Leadership qualities typically associated with the feminine like empathy, humility, adaptability, and being collaborative, intuitive, and connected are valued more and more. Women are not a problem that needs to be solved. The time has come for leaders, men and women alike, to lead. We can no longer delegate the work of inclusion, invest in one-and-done type solutions, or kick this can down the road any further. It will require an investment of time, energy, commitment, and money. It will also require leaders to be willing to get uncomfortable, to say, I don't know,

or to do an honest accounting of where they're falling short, to try things they haven't done before. It's a good thing being a leader requires us to do what is right, not just what is easy. Because the time has come. Inclusion is a leadership problem, and we need a leadership solution. As Brene Brown says, dare to lead. And this is Leaders Work.