This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 089 / Pathway to Justice with Jane Edmonds and Elizabeth Swanson

Episode Date: May 18, 2022

Today I welcome two incredible women to join me as we explore justice for women, which must include the racial reckoning that’s underway locally, nationally and globally. I’ve invited Civil Rights icon, former Chair of the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination, and senior leader in both Michael Dukakis and Mitt Romney’s state administrations, Jane C Edmonds, and Elizabeth Swanson, professor, Ph.D, writer and activist, with a special expertise in African American culture and history, to join us today. Their collective experience, education and mission of working towards racial and gender justice brought them together to create Jane’s Way. I know for many of us it can be uncomfortable talking about gender and racial justice. We get worried about getting it wrong. I will and have (maybe even in this episode) said the wrong things even with the best of intentions, and I’m learning every time. Because getting it wrong, owning and apologizing when I mess up and growing from there, is far better than doing nothing at all. So let’s get to work. Racial and gender justice intersect, and we all get to stand for it. That is most certainly Woman’s Work. To learn more about Jane’s Way, visit www.janeswayllc.com. To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com

here's one mind-busting thought from our guest, and you're definitely going to want to tune in for more. And we want to make a difference, not just a small difference. We want to make a radical difference. And that starts with truth, with awareness, with accountability, and in the spirit of transparency, I have to share that I'm a little nervous about this episode of This Is Woman's Work. Our topic is the pathway to justice, and I've invited two incredible women to join me as we explore justice for women, which must include the racial reckoning that's underway locally, nationally, and globally. We can't consider justice, equality,

or feminism without including women of color, diverse backgrounds, of different socioeconomic statuses and cultures. We just can't, or at least we shouldn't. It's of vital importance, and it is uncomfortable. I don't want to do or say anything that might offend, and I'm clear that I'm in no position to speak for Black, Asian, Native American, or really even Latinas, even though I'm half Mexican. I also know that racism is the worst plague this country has ever seen, and I do want to do my part in eradicating it. I've invited civil rights icon, former chair of the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination, and senior leader in both Michael Dukakis and Mitt Romney State Administration's Jane C. Edmonds, and Elizabeth Swanson, professor,

PhD, writer, and activist with a special expertise in African American culture and history to join us today. Their collective experience, education, and mission of working towards racial and gender justice brought them together, along with another Jane, to create Jane's Way, which I've invited them to share more about today. Jane, Elizabeth, thank you both so much for being here and for joining me today to have this important and maybe even uncomfortable conversation. Thank you, Nicole. Thank you so much for having us. I want to start by asking you to tell us a little bit more about Jane's Way and who and what is a Jane? Well, you know, Nicole, whatever I

think about who is a Jane, I could just give you a whole long list. So we're looking at Janes who are aware, who act, who hold themselves accountable, not because somebody else tells them to do something, because they deeply believe that the harms that exist in this country and throughout the world could stop with our energy. And so that's, to me, what a Jane is. But my sidekick here, Elizabeth, probably has a longer list as well. I mean, we always talk about a Jane Jane and we invite everyone listening to be a Jane. You know, we would love to have more Janes. We'd love to have Janes throughout this country who believe as we do that we can make a difference. And we want to

make a difference, not just a small difference. We want to make a radical difference. And that starts with truth, with awareness, with accountability, and with action. Elizabeth's giving fist pumps. So I think she agrees completely. Anything to add, Elizabeth? Yeah. Well, thank you, Nicole. And thanks, Jane, for, yeah, we Janes. I'm going to give a little more nitty gritty. I'm going to tell a story. So Jane Edmonds and I, Elizabeth Jane Swanson, came together and we didn't know our names would kind of gel in a certain way, but we came together because we both were, we were upset and we were determined to do something about the fact that the numbers, the data that describes people's actual lived experience in the Boston area, but this could be across the country and

across the world, that the data in terms of gaps that accompany identity differences, like race in particular, was not only not changing, but was getting worse. So Jane and I came together and we said, you know what, things are not changing, things are not moving. And we were disturbed and frustrated. We started to talk about why. And I'll fast forward to our conversations with some folks, because when talking about why, we thought about an intervention that we could make. And our intervention as Janes is sort of two components. One is that we believe firmly that we all need to increase our historical literacy, our fluency in the history of this country that got us to this place because as Jane said, it's not visible. Why is it not visible? Because it's purposefully been made to be not visible,

particularly to people who are benefiting from it in the form of segregated neighborhoods. So we wanted to really get to the idea that all people, if they knew better about the intentionality of what we call the status quo, that it just isn't that it just is. It was made to be this way, that people, organizations intentionally made policies and laws that brought us to a place where we live in a state of exclusion. We live in a state of untruth. Jamesway wanted to pierce that and get that level up our knowledge. So we all know that. And then from there, trusting that the majority of people are of good heart and mind and would not want to continue in a situation where some of us are not being treated fairly.

And sort of putting aside those others who prefer that it be that way, because that's not really something we can do anything about Jane's way. But what we can do is work with people in order to increase that historical literacy, which ties into the awareness Jane's talking about. So we were bringing this, trying to bring this to the market, and we were talking to people and refining our pitch. And we talked to a few folks and who were kind of high level executive level and basically to a person, they said, that is so wonderful that you want to do this. And this is around 2018, late 2018, 2019. So before George Floyd, let's put it that way. And at that time we got a lot of pats on the head, nice, nice, and there's no market for this.

And that was the literal language. Nobody cares about history. That was other language that was given to us. And on one of those calls, when someone, a man said, a white man said to us, no one cares about history. If you want to make some kind of program, and this was the quote, deliver two or three measurable competencies and call it a day. I hung up the phone and I said to Jane, that's the person we need to get out the way to do the work that we need to do.

I said, it's been his way for far too long. Excuse me. And I said, it's time for our way. It is time for the way of women, people of color, people who've been marginalized for the whole host of reasons that our dominant group marginalizes others. It's our time and it's time for our way. So a Jane for us is someone who has understanding of what it is to be marginalized, oppressed, excluded, but who, and invisible, but who is resilient, powerful, has developed and honed their skills, has so much to teach this world, immeasurable knowledge and experience. That's who we want to bring forward. And we're working with organizations to open up to that collective wisdom of all the Janes. So many good things in there. And it sparked two big questions for me. First,

Jane, what would you say, or what do you say doing this work for as long as you have to somebody who says, leave the past in the past, we've come so far, you know, this isn't a problem anymore. History doesn't matter. What is your response to that? Well, I hear that all the time. And what I usually do is I ask a series of questions. Because the questions may be, so what did you learn? Because what you're suggesting is, in part, maybe true, that there's been some progress, as we call it, a progress narrative that says that once upon a time we had enslavement, and now we have Barack Obama and Kamala Harris, and so we're done. As we often say, it's like a story line that has a sad beginning and a happy ending. So I would ask, you know, what have you

learned? Because what I often find is with that simple question is an answer that tells me that that answer doesn't include the knowledge about the lived experience of so many people like myself as a Black woman, you know, with a beautiful Black family and mixed family. We have like a United Nations family, frankly. But it doesn't help that person understand the lived experience, that you could have these two narratives going at the same time. A progress narrative, but you're skipping over the lived experience. You're not understanding that, oh yes, maybe there wasn't a formal enslavement, but we still have forms of enslavement running all the way through the century up to the present day.

So I think the question often is that you're not fully aware. It's not that you're a bad person. You know, it's not like pointing a finger at somebody and saying, oh, you know, I'm blaming you for something. It's to help you understand that you're missing something. You have not become literate. You have not got the whole picture. It's like a canvas that's been halfway painted, but it hasn't been filled in to see its full beauty. And so you can draw the rich meaning from it. And we think it's so important for us to do the work to be literate, because if we understand where we've been, then we can better understand why today we have such difficult circumstances all around us where so many people are feeling excluded or marginalized or demeaned or ridiculed or angry. There's a reason for all of that. And we want to try to help illuminate those reasons to give people hope that with that knowledge comes the opportunity to be much more hopeful because you know that you can do something about it.

You have tremendous power to do something about it. But it starts with understanding what the problem is. Jane, that makes me think that part of what the problem is, is denial. And Nicole, when you bring up the question, what do you say to people who say there's a strain of thought and speech going through our culture right now that says we ought not to discuss the history of racism because it brings up a painful past. It makes white people, in particular white children, feel guilty for their part in this enslavement. That is the point of view. And it makes others stay stuck in that pain so that we can't move on as a society. Those are arguments that I've heard. But you know what it reminds me of, though, is when people people say so let's just not talk about it is what happens in families when people there are pressures to just not talk about and I think

that's something we can all relate to but those wounds fester and I always ask people do you think that black folks want to take time off from work to be away from their families, to go out in the street, to put themselves at risk, to spend their time and energy making signs and placards and strategizing. Do you think they just do that somehow because that's a desire that they have? Or could you look at what you see and say, this is a testament to the wound. These are people who are need to literally take to the streets and hold up banners because they are not being heard. What is it about our culture that doesn't say let's talk. Something kind of clicked in my mind of our feelings, our emotions come from our experiences. And so when somebody is angry or frustrated or disappointed or sad, understanding the experience that led to that feeling helps to create a shared understanding, to have empathy, to be better listeners. Jane, as you were speaking,

that actually popped into my head. These are why these lived experiences, the history, the stories are so, so, so important that they be told. Elizabeth, how do you respond when people, you're a white woman, when people say you shouldn't speak about this or, you know, this is our time to listen or what are your responses when those get fired at you? Yes, absolutely. As a white woman who chose at the time that I started doing my master's, I was 24 years old. And when I was asked by my white advisor in my graduate program, what my area of specialization was going to be, I said, African-American literature. And he said, you're a white woman. And that was meant to signify, he didn't even have to say what was next.

You ought not to be doing this. And that was probably for a different reason than what you're suggesting now, which is quiet down white women. We've heard quite enough from you, right? For him, it was, this is not an appropriate area of study for you because you're white. And it was really powerful because I took that to my cohort of colleagues and a black woman who was there studying Shakespeare said, should I not be doing Shakespeare? And so I persisted in my study. My next year, I had the great blessing. I'm going to shout out Mary, Professor Mary Emma Graham at University of Kansas. She is a, was my mentor, an African American woman, an absolute trailblazer in African American literature. And I've studied with her. And in the middle of the semester, I sent her a little note and I said, you know, this is my passion. I am so committed to this literature, to this body I held a forum called, you know, who has authority to speak? These were all the questions. She said, not only should you

continue your study, it's your obligation because there are not enough of us to, to do the professing. So yes, continue. And, and please crowd out those voices That has sort of empowered me to go forward and do the work. So that when I met my partner, Jane Edmonds, a Black woman, Jane, what was your thought about me, Jane? I must admit that I said to myself, who is this white woman? I said, who is she? Because the more she talked, the more I started to learn. And I learned some things that I didn't know that I should have known.

And I found her knowledge so insatiable because I just absorbed it. I thought about it and I said, wow. And it goes back to something else I said earlier. You know, if we all believe we're part of the human family and we all believe we have a responsibility to address the harm that persists, then we can be doing is saying that this thing called racism or any other kind of ism, it's in the air we breathe. It's something that affects every single person in some kind of way.

It affects white people as well as Black people. It's not just it affects some of us. So we have a collective opportunity to try to address it and do something about it. And, you know, I get so frustrated because I think I shared with you, Nicole, that I've had some sad circumstances in my life. And I was having conversations with my beloved husband just about a month ago. And I was asking him to go back and to share with me his memories of his first days out of Rhode Island School of Design and I says just tell me anything that you think pertains to my work and he recalled a story where he was the only black slash womp and out noag man out of college in this company in Providence, Rhode Island.

And as a daily occurrence, there was a coworker who would come in and if something had happened outside, there'd been a shooting or there'd been some other kind of problem involving Black people, this particular coworker would say, use the N-word repeatedly, you know, that the ends are up to it again, or the end this, end that. And I said to my husband, what did you do with that? He said, I tried to do what most of us try to do. I tried to ignore it. He says, but you know, Jane, it got to me. It really got to me after a while. And so I went to my supervisor and I said, hey, can you just do anything about the coworker? And I'm deliberately not using the names of the people. And the coworker's response was, ignore him. That's just the way he is. That's just the way he is. Ignore him. That was the best

the supervisor could offer. And just think about it. My husband, my dear beloved husband had to internalize that kind of harm that had that supervisor, or even the person who was using the N word had had an appreciation of history and understood why he may even be using that word, you know, and the hate that's attached to it. just maybe it would have made a difference with that knowledge. Now that may sound naive, but the work that we're doing, we believe that there are people of good hearts. And if they only understood, if they only understood, they would find a way to try to be the activators that we need to stop that kind of harm. It would have made a difference to my husband, believe me, because he, here it is decades later, and he can recall that story and the tears came to his eyes just as much as it probably might have in those early days. But it was his problem. He

had to deal with the problem. And it was, you know, it was not his problem. It was our problem. It means that as a society, we're allowing harm of that to occur. And we're doing sometimes little about it. So that story brings up for me this duality. And I think sometimes we have a hard time like as humans with duality of, yes, we must listen to the stories. We must ask questions. We must let people with those experiences lead. And we must use our voices too. As a white woman or a white man in that situation as a supervisor, there was an opportunity. There was power. There was a chance to make a huge difference and not just one person's life, but many people's lives at that time. And, and so that's where I go back to, like,

I am going to listen. I'm going to follow and I'm going to speak and I'm going to lead because we need both. And this is my opinion as a white woman, I am curious your thoughts. We, you know, one of our big Jane's way tenants is it's almost always both and, and very rarely either, or so that's what I would say back to your question, you know, about being a white woman in this space. Um, what I felt was that when I continued to do the work and do my best and to strike that balance, Nicole, between speaking and listening always and humility in accepting when I get it wrong, which is also something that we all can learn to just be humble and say, I got it wrong. It's really not a big deal. You know, we are human, but we have such

incredible defenses. But I was ready then when Mr. George Floyd was murdered in such a way that the entire world reared up and something rent open. There's a long metaphor in African American literature and culture of the veil, the veil of double consciousness of having to be Black and American and negotiate this terrible rift. And so we felt like the veil tore open, you know, and Jane's Way was ready right there. Suddenly it wasn't no one cares about history. Everyone cared about history because the question was, how could this happen? And so, and for, but some people, for some folks living in this country, that question is sort of ridiculous. What do you mean? How could this happen? It happens all the

time. It just doesn't happen to be perhaps this level of extremity, but the same terror, brutality, and loss of life finally happens all the time. You have a, I don't want to use the word tagline, it almost minimizes it, an expression in Jane's way of, I've heard the expression move the needle, but you say change the needle. What does that mean? Change the needle means that Jamesway is not satisfied working with a client simply to see a 0.2% increase in some data point. Change the needle means that you're willing to look at the organization in a holistic way and actually begin to plot through a strategy thoughtfully that will lift your business, not compromise it and not diminish it, but lift your business, but a comprehensive strategy that's aimed at making a dramatic difference so that you don't just simply include

people of color and more people of color at the leadership ranks, but you are an organization that has done the work necessary to retain that talent, to unleash that talent, and to get the full benefit of human potential that's possible. And so we're looking at those organizations that we want to work with that will be committed to change the needle. Frankly, we're not interested in coming in and just doing a splash in the pan training on say implicit bias and then leave with a fat check

because we would not take on such a project because we know enough from our own experience, the Three Janes have a hundred years of collective experience doing this work, we know that those kinds of efforts are not going to propel an organization forward. So we look to the clients that are truly interested in wanting to work with us to change that needle, meaning to optimize their organization in such a way with the use of diversity, but with a willingness and a commitment to do the work necessary. Nicole, if you think about earlier, we were talking about that progress narrative and we say that is true. It's absolutely true. We no longer sell human beings on auction blocks in this country. We no longer relegate some people to certain neighborhoods by law, but we certainly have a lot retained from that time. So we have a progress narrative. That's great. Let's honor that while we take note of what we call, taking from a poet,

Amiri Baraka, the changing same of African-American history, which is a traumatic history, which means American history is a traumatic history. The changing same is almost a circular repetition of just the same same, but in a slightly different form. And so we think about that, you know, that that certain forms of violence against Black people just keep evolving and systems of oppression keep evolving. And you know what, we decided we will not wait for another generation to come around and have to fight this. We will not wait for more and more and more George Floyds. And what we see now, we're really, really glad to report here with you, is that people are demanding actual change and saying it's not enough to wring our hands.

So I think a lot of the implicit bias training that Jane is referring to has just really focused on like, it's a shame we have a bad racist history and we have some biases that came from that. And then there's no action attached to that. It's just sort of like, darn, what a shame. And a lot of people leave feeling badly about themselves. I don't know why I'm such a, I have all these thoughts, like, you know, and that's why we say you need to know historical literacy. So, you know, where the unconscious bias came from that we all have. But then you got to take the next step. So when James when we say change the needle, yeah, a Jane is about what am I going to do now. And we're seeing it all the time in organizations where people are simply

refusing the status quo. And a lot of it's coming up from below of the younger generation. And this isn't about that kind of critique of millennials and Gen X and Z, sorry, Z, I guess we're at, about not, you know, work ethics and these kinds of clashes across generations. It's about a younger generation who's been exposed to learning about identity and difference and harm in this country who are ready to say that I won't have that in my workplace and who are leaving over it or threatening to leave, pressuring for different kinds of deals. And it's powerful to see. Okay. So my last question is kind of, I'm going to try to navigate this. So the first part of my question is where in your minds do feminism or gender equity, inequality, gender wise intersect, collide, support with

racial equity and justice? So that's the first part of the question. And then the second part is how do you handle the people who say, oh, they're just being too sensitive or being a victim? I mean, I am sitting on this recording with Jane C. Edmonds, who just lost her husband in the last few weeks is in a full cast and has chosen to show up to talk about this with us today. Like I, the opposite of victim and sensitive. And I mean, when we talk about resilience and tenacity, this is an example that's, and I know Jane, you're going to say so many other women are doing this too. So, okay. My, my question is a two parter. Where does gender and racial equity collide? And then what do you say to the people who think we're just boohooing? We're not boohooing. Let's come on. Let's get real here.

And we're not boohooing and the data shows it's get real here. We're not boohooing, and the data shows it. So for those who are data-driven, just look at the data, and then have a conversation with me. I'd love to have it anytime, anyplace. And where race and gender collide is in the unfairness of systems. So I love that you're, first of all, thank you for acknowledging my beloved Stephen who passed. But, you know, sad as I am about his passing, and yes, I have a fractured wrist as a result of a fall in this hospital room when I tried to call a nurse for help to him. And I'm here. You're right. I'm no different than a lot of women who persevere in spite of whatever comes our way.

I'm just like everybody else. You know, when we talk about amazing women, as I said to you earlier, we're all amazing women. Some of us don't recognize the power that we have. And as far as I'm concerned, if the systems, if the organizations would do their hard work, that's where the energy should be. I mean, I don't need somebody to help prop me up to come out when I'm hurting with my wrist or mourning my husband. You know, I'm here. I don't need that help. I get it from my friends. I get it from my family. But if I go into a workplace, I want that workplace to allow me to thrive. I want them to, I want it to be transparent. I want it, I want to know what I can do to climb as high as I can for my own benefit and the organization's benefit. And so I want the organization to see in me the potential

that I have and to do what it can do to make sure that I'm successful. I think it's a no-brainer. It's not a boo-hoo, but there are clear inequities. I mean, we can give data forever here today about the inequities that affect women and people of color. Where I worry sometimes is that when we're operating on our, what may be perceived as separate agendas, it makes it easier for organizations to ignore the harm that affects us all. Jane, I would just, I am with you in everything that you just articulated. And one of the ways that I think you were so clear about, you know, where gender and race, the unfairness of systems. But I also think feminism and womanism, which is feminism, Black feminism, and all the ways,

all the movements around gender and expansive thinking around gender. This might be a little old school, but I do believe that there is a particular analytical lens that comes through our focus on gender and through our focus on what it is to be a woman in this world. And I mean to include every kind of woman in that womanhood. But I think that that worldview, and there are people who talk about this, and I share it, that to be a feminist is to be anti-racist automatically. Because the ethos of feminism is peace. It's anti-war just on principle, I believe. It's anti-harm. It is pro-vulnerability. It's pro-inclusion. It comes from the deep connections that are just part of women's being in ways that are often suppressed for men in our traditional culture. So to me, it is the intersections of harm, and then it's a worldview that says, that just comes from a place of connection rather than a place of competition and atomization. episode's around a half an hour, but like, how can you cover a topic this big in a half an hour?

Thank you both for helping us think, for saying what needs to be said, and for standing for justice in all of its forms. I'm so appreciative to both of you for being here today. If you're listening and you want to learn, support, or hire Jane's Way, or to become a Jane, as I have, visit JanesWayLLC.com or follow them on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook at JanesWayLLC. We'll put all of that in show notes so you can very easily find them. And I want to close out by saying, I know for many of us, it can be uncomfortable to talk about gender and racial justice. We get worried about what people will say or what they'll think or if we'll get it wrong. I also believe the feminist movement and those that advocate for the rights of women like myself have frankly ignored in a lot of cases or misrepresented the unique issues, the different issues that women of color face.

So I am listening to Black women. I am going to follow their lead because I believe that until Black and Brown women have the same fundamental human and American rights, until they get paid the same for the same work and are given equal access to opportunities, equality can't and won't be achieved. I also believe it is absolutely worth fighting for. Because when has anything worth doing ever been comfortable? I will and have, maybe even in this episode, said the wrong things, even with the best of intentions. And I'm learning every time. Because getting it wrong, owning and apologizing when I mess up, and growing from there is far better than doing nothing at all. So let's get to work.

Racial and gender justice intersect, and we all get to stand for it. That is most certainly woman's work.