This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 117 / Steps To Getting Better Pay And A Promotion with Stacy Mayer

Episode Date: December 21, 2022

On today’s episode we are going to talk about the steps you can take to better titles and better pay, all while bringing your whole self to the leadership table. You DO deserve it, you HAVE earned it, you ARE ready. And the answer is going to be no if you don’t ask, anyway. So you might as well ask. My guest today is Stacy Mayer - bestselling Author of “Promotions Made Easy,” Executive Coach and Promotion Strategist, and creator of Executive Ahead of Time - a group coaching program that helps women get promoted to the executive suite on their terms. Stacy shares with us some practical tips to ensure that you’re positioning yourself for promotion. Stop waiting to feel ready. Ready isn’t a destination, it’s a choice. Of course there are things that you can do to prepare and to strategize, but at the end of the day we all must choose confidence on the road to competence. So go in there and ask! I’ll be here rooting for you. To learn more about Stacy you can visit StacyMayer.com or follow her on LinkedIn or on IG @corporatebadass. Also check out her podcast Women Changing Leadership. To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com. And if you haven’t already, please review our podcast here!

Hey you, have you reviewed the This Is Woman's Work podcast on Apple Podcasts yet? Your reviews help us get bigger and better guests, so I need your support. You can write a quick review or just tap the five stars. It's super easy. Please and thank you. I am Nicole Kalil, and on today's episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk about the steps you can take to get promotions, better titles, become better paid, all while bringing your whole self to the leadership table. That's right. Grab whatever it is that you take notes

on because we're going to talk about getting yourself promoted. Because regardless of what that bully of a voice inside your head says, you do deserve it. You have earned it. You are ready. And it's probably not going to happen unless you ask with confidence. Because the answer is always no if you don't ask. And if you do, at least you're giving yourself that 50% chance of getting a yes. I'm no statistician, but I do know that 50% is better than 0%. So how and when do you do this? Well, I've brought in an expert on the subject because I'm committed to women getting paid their worth, having a seat at the leadership table. And because frankly, I'm too pissed off about the subject to give good, reasonable,

actionable advice. I suppose walking into a conversation and saying, you've gotten away with paying me less than my value. You've used me for every stupid project and all of the invisible workload around here. And if you don't pay me the same level as you do Dick, short for Richard, you can pound sand and good luck finding somebody else that's even halfway as good as I am. That's probably not an effective approach. Seriously, don't do that. Even though I know some of you feel like doing that, even though I know I've felt like saying that in the past. Okay, so we can agree that I'm not the person to get advice from about asking for a promotion. I'm aware of my limitations. So Stacey Mayer, bestselling author of Promotions Made Easy, executive coach and promotion strategist,

creator of Executive Ahead of Time, a group coaching program that helps women get promoted to the executive suite is here. Thank God. Stacey, this topic is so important. So thank you for doing the work that you do. And I have to start by asking, why are you making this your life's work? I'm sure there's a story behind what you do. So why this? Nicole, you named it. I was holding back the laughter, which is really hard for me to do because, you know, my clients are always telling me how much they love my laugh.

And as you were doing that introduction, it was cracking me up, but it's also the fuel for every single thing that I do. So there are two sides of it. I want to tell you the backstory, but first in reference to that beautiful introduction is I want women to know that they have options. And so whether a woman quits the job in a wild fury and says, you'll never find anybody better than me, that's fine. But that's coming from a place of no options, right? It's like, I'm out of here. And what I want a woman to do is like actually walk out the door and be like,

I'm out of here. Like it's done. Right. And I asked you for a promotion like several times, and we talked about my salary and you very clearly didn't care about that. Right. You know, I have, um, uh, an Instagram video that I did a while back that was just like got extremely popular, but it was basically the exit interview that you wish you could say, but, but really it has this, um, I know you work on confidence. It has this grounded confidence to it. It has this, like, I'm, I'm actually leaving right. Versus, um, the wild fury. And so that was definitely the, um, the, the idea behind it and the women that fueled the work, but the other, and this is the more,

the backstory that I find, um, could be really compelling is I worked for a women's leadership organization in Silicon Valley as a coach. And I was finding that the women were actually what I call corporate badasses. They were amazing. They were not, not taking risks. They were not, not leaning in. They were not, not asking for the promotion. They were doing all of the things. It's just, they weren't actually getting the promotion. So on one side you could say, well, that's because people don't respect me. That's because of the patriarchy. That's because of the oppression, like whatever is happening. But I was like, you know, I bet that we can be more empowered than that. And so when I started my business, I actually said, I'm going to coach women to get promoted. That is all I care about. That is what I'm going to focus on.

I'm going to figure out how they can get those titles and that better pay. But more importantly, how can they actually be included in the conversation? And so that has fueled the beginning of my life's work. Then what continues to fuel it, what fuels the book and all of the work that I do is that results, right? The women who are getting promoted to the C-suite, the women that are changing their leadership table through some simple tweaks to their language, because they're already corporate badasses. They were ready to step into those roles. It's just, they needed the language and the communication to be able

to actually make that happen. So as you were talking, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so feel free to say, nope, that's not it for me. But as you were talking, it felt familiar to me in that I recognize that there are issues like the patriarchy and oppression and people being jerks and gender expectations and things like that. But I also recognize that our lack of confidence as women is contributing, is playing a part in the results that we're getting. And it just felt like my piece of the puzzle felt like something where I could impact. And so what I heard you say was sort of the, yeah, there are a lot of reasons why women may not be getting the positions they've

earned or the compensation or the promotion, but at least part of it is maybe they're not asking in the best way, or maybe they're not putting themselves out there in a way that lands and that, that your part, you feel your part to play is helping them do that. Okay. Am I on base off base? Absolutely. No, you're totally on base. I felt a kindred spirit. All right. So I want to talk about something that comes up often in my work and I'm sure does in yours, this sort of competence versus confidence conversation. So how can women move from subject matter expert or go to problem solver, or I'm doing the work before I've gotten the promotion to this powerhouse executive leader with the title

and the compensation. So how do we make that leap? So the first thing I want everybody to know is the leap from subject matter expert to being seen as a leader is everything. And so you have this awareness around it. And so when I talked about the communication strategies and really asking myself, why are these women not getting promoted when they're taking all these risks? It's because they're not seen as an executive leader, really point blank. So I had, when I first started my business, I actually was working with men and I had all of the men who approached me were all C-suite executives already.

So they had gotten the title. Okay, great. Right. They got the title, but they were not seen as an executive. They were not included in the conversation. And so they were hiring me not to get a promotion, but to be included. They were realizing they still weren't included. The answer was always the same.

It was because they were seen as a subject matter expert. I call it the SME ceiling. And it's dark and it's gloomy and it's right in front of you. And when we can know that that is actually what is holding us back from getting to that next level, at least that allows it to dissolve a little bit because it's annoying. It's frustrating. It's like, I've worked really hard to get here, but basically the solution is what I call a 5% shift in communication. So this is a practical tip as you're taking your notes from today is instead of thinking of it, like I have to let go of 20 years of building

my subject matter expertise to get to this point, all of these things that make you such an exceptional leader, what we're going to do is we're going to start to shift our communication by 5%. It's such an easy thing to do, but it's actually really important that you only shifted by 5% as well, right? Because what we're afraid of is that we're going to come off as lazy or we're going to come off as not caring, or we're going to miss our deadlines and things like that. And all of that stuff is so important, but what we're going to do instead of just diving into the details immediately, as soon as we get into a one-on-one with our boss, we're going to say, let's take a step back for a moment. Let's look at the bigger picture.

Why are we working on this project? Have a little conversation about that for about five minutes and then dive into the details. Be willing to say, if you'd like to hear more, I'm happy to share with you, but don't just share it with them every single detail because all that does is reinforce that you're a subject matter expert.

And the thing that I wanna leave you with on this subject is you cannot be promoted if you do not have a successor. You cannot be promoted if you do not have a successor. If nobody else can do your job, you cannot be promoted. If you do not have a successor, if nobody else can do your job, you cannot be promoted. And so, so many women over deliver. That's what makes us amazing. I'm so grateful for that. But what happens is we box ourselves into a corner and they don't have, they will literally, like I've had women be told, we cannot promote you because we there's nobody. And that's actually the awareness of the leader being generous. Usually they tell you things like you're doing great. Keep doing what

you're doing, right? They aren't even honest enough with themselves to be able to tell you the advice that says, you know, actually I can't promote you because I don't know. I'd rather hire this guy from the outside, keep you doing something that's predictable and then get him in here to do leadership. Right. Oh my gosh. That's such a kick in the foot, right? It's like, whatever, it's bad. Well, and I, I know personally, and with a lot of the women that I work with, we are doers, right. And we're problem solvers and we are overachievers and all of those things. And one of the downsides is we enable the people on our team under the guise of servant leadership to not learn new skills, to not make mistakes, to not grow, to not have to

learn the skill of problem solving themselves. And to your point, what that ends up doing is making us irreplaceable and not having somebody that we're growing that like could literally step into our role as we move on to the next. It's really interesting point that you make, but so, so, so important. Can I add something to this from a confidence perspective? I'm so curious about your opinion about this. So when we look at confidence and being seen as an executive leader, having the confidence to go up to your boss and to say, you know, Hey, I want to, um, be promoted, like really just own it. And, um, and so therefore I'm working with such and such to be my successor.

So many women are afraid to say those words, to actually share with somebody that they have a plan for when they get promoted. I just feel like that's such a huge piece to your work and giving them the confidence to have those conversations because that is it. And when you start to show up confidently that way, they see you as an executive. They see you as somebody who's ready. Couldn't agree more. I mean, that's such a phenomenal example of putting a stake in the ground, trusting yourself, trusting in the people around you, putting the plan in place, and then communicating the plan. I mean, I don't think communicating everything effectively or being confident is 100% guarantee that you're going to get what you want, but it is going to increase the probability. And then if you don't get what you want, you have real

information, real data, like rejection is an answer, right? Not getting what you want is an answer. And that answer might propel you in a different direction. It might have you change course. It might have you leave, but at least it's a fricking answer. I think sometimes we are so afraid of getting an answer we don't want that we sit in limbo. Anyway, I went off on a little tangent there, but yes, that is absolutely an example of confidence. So for me, promotions and titles and better pay usually involved embracing more of my masculine and ignoring stuffing down and setting aside some of my more feminine qualities. I worked in a very male dominated industry. And so in order to fit in or be perceived as a leader,

I felt whether true or not, I felt pressure to really over-rotate on the masculine. So how do we bring our whole selves, regardless of our gender, but our whole selves as masculine and those feminine qualities to the leadership table? One, one-on-one conversation at a time. And I really like the one-on-one conversation approach in particular for women, because in general, when we're one-on-one with someone, we tend not to put on an external face, right? We feel like we can be more of ourselves. We can be more genuine. We can genuinely engage in a conversation with somebody else. And, and so that's the first piece is that

being willing to do the actual act of advocating for yourself, which, which are these one-on-one conversations and advocating for yourself is just literally being in a conversation. You don't have to be like telling them how great you are, but just engaging, showing up. And when we can realize that our, our role in that is we're going to do that in a different way. So if you think about the other side of the masculine approach to getting promoted or getting recognized, there are two factors that really come into play. One is, and oftentimes I'll say that, you know, we don't get really great advice when it comes to what's going to take to get a woman promoted. But the one piece of advice that I think is very valid that you'll hear a lot of times is that you needed to build

trust with the executive team. You need relationships with the executive team. And a man will tell you that a lot of people will tell you that no matter what you need to build this trust. And I think that's kind of what you're, you're getting as kind of getting in front of people, right? How do you get in front of people? And so what we're going to do is we're going to build trust in our way on our terms. So I would tell women, um, I was asked point blank on a panel, like, how do I get invited to the bar? And I was like, stop trying to get invited to the bar. We're not going to get invited to the bar. We don't want to go on the camping trip. We don't want to be at the golf course. We don't want to be on the cycling rides on Saturdays. Right. And so we don't want to do

any of those things. And so then therefore our consolation prize is to not get promoted, right? Because we don't get exposure in that way of just casual conversations with executive leadership on the, on the flip side. A lot of times what happens in terms of building trust is you can build trust with another human being simply by looking like them. Like from a gender biased perspective, Nicole, I looked at you and I liked you. I mean, I'm just I'm going to say it right. Like I was like, cool. She seems great. Right. Like she looks like me. Like this is awesome. I like her already. Right. And so when we can be aware of that's happening for the colleagues that look and act and think and talk like the rest of the room, that they're building trust without having to even go to the bar or golf course or one-on-one conversations. So we could say this is annoying,

but I actually think it's our secret sauce. If we build conversations in the process I teach, which is 15 minute ally meetings, one, one-on-one conversation at a time, then what we're doing is we're actually showing the executive leader who we are, what matters to us, what we're proud of, how we think about the work that we're showing up in these conversations as a peer. We're not checking in about our work. We're not asking for advice even. We're not letting them be way higher than us and like, oh, please help me. We're showing up as a peer and we're engaging in normal conversation. And when we can start to do this, we build trust with different executive leaders

who more so than just our boss, right? And then they start to see us, they recognize us, they bring us into the conversation. And so then when we are brought in to do the bigger presentation, we feel that confidence. We feel like we belong. We feel like people in the room have our back. And so then we do the presentation as we would do it, right?

It might have some masculine strong qualities to it because we're powerhouse corporate leaders, right? We are badasses, but it also could have a little bit of laughter, a little bit of empathy, compassion, connection with the audience, like all of these great things that make us those phenomenal leaders because we can just be ourselves. Yeah. I'm nodding my head because when you begin to forge and form those relationships with the powers that be, when you get those opportunities, those people seem less scary in the room to you. They seem

more encouraging. They seem more like they want you to succeed versus sitting back with their arms crossed. And then I don't know about other women, but then I make up like all kinds of stuff and I get nervous and I start to lose the stuff that makes me, me. So it's a really interesting, some interesting points in there. So I know we agree on this seeing women being in leadership positions as a form of social justice. Why do you see it that way? And how can we leverage that to our advantage? So the other piece of this that you're referring to is, and I'm not sure how long ago you left your corporate job, but when we look at the women who are in the C-suite today, what they had to do to get there, there is an element of acting more like a man. And I'm not saying that they had to do to get there, there is an element of acting more like a man. And I'm not saying that they had to do that, but that was actually the social norm Eve as early as 10 years ago. And so

when we kind of think about the life cycle of promotions and the women that are in those C-suite positions, they might have a different approach or even different advice for you, even though they are a woman, right? Because the way they got there, they had to do certain things and make certain sacrifices that I believe we don't have to do today. And some of that is because of the resources. This is definitely what fuels my, you know, get this information out to more women and we can do this and everything. But the first thing I want to point out is that we don't have really great role models. So if this change has really only taken shape in the last 10 or 20 years, where we're really able to bring our voice to the table, not just the titles, because we have had especially white women in powerful positions for a while, but we're only

recently seeing those women in those positions of power be able to speak their voice. And so that is the newer place that I think we're starting to see. And so if we know that we don't have great role models and we're going to have to carve this path out for ourselves. We're going to have to meet people that are, you know, inspiring to us as individuals. And then the other piece, which is I think the social justice piece, which is that we have to educate people around us as to what that might look like. So for instance, 15 minute ally meetings is not what is already being done at your organization. What is already being done at your organization is hour long mentor conversations or work check-ins, right? That's what's being done.

So when you know that, okay, I am committed to doing something different because I'm actually changing the leadership table. I'm like, I'm totally redefining it by my simple act of getting a promotion. Like I'm actually the act of doing it is changing the leadership table. So then what you're going to do is you're going to be like, you know, I'd like to schedule 15 minutes. They're like, oh, well, you know, let's do that once a quarter. No, seriously. I'd rather do 15 minutes once a month. Is that okay with you? Right. And like really own it. Like say, you know, I think because the truth is one 15 minute conversation once a month is way more impactful than that hour long conversation once a quarter.

Right. And that's the building trust that we're talking about. So we have to look at what's around us and really own and say, you know, oh my gosh, it's not just that, you know, I'm oppressed or that people treat me differently because I'm a woman, but I'm actually going to have to get promoted differently. And that's okay. That is okay because it guarantees your ability to then be able to be yourself. So if you go through this process of getting promoted on your own terms, when you get the

role, you're going to be in the role on your own terms. Hallelujah. Right. Okay. So I am very tactical by nature. It's not my sexiest quality, but it is in fact true that I'm the how-to girl, right? So if somebody is listening right now and they're gearing up to ask for a raise, a promotion, an opportunity. Can you give us a few tactical things that they should either leverage or be thinking about or what's the housing? So this time of year, performance reviews are pretty popular, right? And in my book, I talk about there's a chapter that what to do at performance review time, right? And the answer is, the high level answer is nothing.

And here's what I mean. At performance review time, your promotion is already settled. Like it's already happened. They've already made decisions. You know, everything has been decided, right? Your pay has been decided. It's really not a conversation to be had. It is a delivery of information and you can be disappointed in that delivery of information. But what happens next after your performance review is so critical and

important. So we tend to see the performance review and then automatically we skip to the end of 2023. And so we say, oh, okay, by then what I'm going to do is I'm going to make sure that by the end of next year, I Like, Oh, well, he said I needed to deliver on these projects or I need to take on a multimillion dollar project in order to get promoted because that's what they're going to tell you is a factual thing. You do it behind the scenes. Guess what? Come 2023, you have a 50, 50 chance of getting promoted. I mean, you may or may not, I don't know. Right. Like we're leaving it in their hands, but what you're going to do is after the performance review, you're going to schedule a conversation to follow up and be like, well, I really appreciate that feedback. As you know, I'm very committed to growing with this organization.

I'd like to have a talk with how I can actually ensure that I become senior director at the end of the year. I don't want to leave it up to chance. I would like to create a plan with you right now to actually make that happen. Right. And so then over the next year, you're actually talking about your promotion ahead of time. You're like, am I still on track for senior director? What are the things, right? You're really engaging and seeing like if there's holes in their advice, you know, well, I did the multimillion dollar project that you suggested. Does that mean I'm still on track?

You know, like hear it and then hear them say yes or hear them say maybe or like, right. Because that's what you're talking about, about the answers give you answers, right? Like you want to hear what they're actually saying before performance review. So this doesn't give you a ton of advice for what to do this year. It's more like what to do afterwards, but you can use the feedback you've been given at the performance review to turn it into action. So then that way you are having conversations from a professional development standpoint year round. Yeah. Okay. So I want to close by asking, are there any no-nos? Are there any mistakes? Like I can think back of having compensation conversations with people and they would say things to the

effect of like, I feel like I deserve to get paid more because I want to make more because I want to live a better lifestyle. They'd be like, oh, I'm having a hard time paying these bills. And I just, I would like want to have a hole open up and swallow them because it was just like painful to watch. It's absolutely a no-no to ask somebody to give you a raise for your personal lifestyle, right? Like it's just, that's not, anyway, my opinion, but are there any no-nos or any like, please stop making these mistakes?

I love that because I was thinking, you know, a lot, I think a lot about working moms and, you know, and I'm like, stop talking to them about your children and how hard it is. And I think what's really happening for us is that we're inflating authenticity in the, in the wrong way. And so we really want to start to be selective with our conversations, like really look at who we're talking to, who is this person and what do they need to hear from me in order to make this decision? That does not mean acting like a man. That is smart business, right? Like if you were a salesperson, there is certain language that you use to get your client to buy, right? And I think that that is really important for us to understand that these are communication

strategies, right? This is the way that we're communicating. So I think the biggest no-no is to misinterpret authenticity as like oversharing. And I see authenticity as authentic power. And so when I, um, when I was first, um, interviewing for my podcast, I would interview black leaders that were in the C-suite and they kept using this word authenticity. I was like, what was your secret to success? And they would say authenticity. And I'm like, uh, I'm sorry, but you know, you're a six foot five black man and you're walking into

the room being more authentic. Like, I don't know. Right. Because the instinct saying be less myself, be left, you know, like pull back, pull back. And so I was like, what do you actually mean by authenticity? Right. Are you sharing about all the things that are happening in your life? And they're, Oh God, no, I stopped sharing about all the things. And I, I, I have a sense that from the title of your book, validation is for parking. I stopped looking for validation from other people. I actually would be myself, which myself is incredibly powerful. So to answer your question of the no, no, because you actually brought up the salary increase, what my favorite ask is. So this is the yes versus the no, but it'll tell you what not to do is say, can we have a conversation about level setting my salary and then stop talking?

Because the truth is what you're actually asking sometimes is to be treated equally, right? And if you have an inkling that, and actually it's not even an inkling, a lot of women work in their direct reports, get paid more than them. And so they'd like to have a conversation. So they might go into it and say, you know, it's because my kids and I deserve it and all these things. And it's like, nobody cares. But the truth is from an authentically powerful place, you could walk into that conversation. You can be like, Hey, I'm curious. Can we have a conversation about level setting my salary? That leader is going to be like, Oh my God, sure. Like, let's look at it. Right. Are the numbers on, Oh my gosh. You know, and then they may or may not match it. Right.

You know, who knows what the conversation is going to go from there, but that is such a more powerful, more integrated, a more authentic place because the truth is you should be getting paid what you're worth, right? You are ready for that recognition. And so sometimes we just need to simplify the ask and then let the other leader tell us why we're not getting promoted. Like in these cases with the, um, the people that you talked about in your job, when they would present this to you, like, you know, if they had presented it, like I would like to even just, I'd like to talk about my salary, then you could ask them questions. That's much better information than them telling you about all the reasons they should get paid more. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, I got, I wish I would have had that question many years ago in my back

pocket. That would have been really helpful, But yeah, I love this concept of being more myself and authenticity being about like the power of you. And I agree with you and I haven't really put as much thought into it, but this kind of mixing up of authenticity with oversharing or authenticity means blurting out everything and the elimination of privacy. That's not at all what we're talking about here. This is just being, I think it actually goes back to the power of the combination of authenticity and confidence, knowing who you are, owning who you're not and embracing all of it and showing up as you. Okay. Stacey, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I am sure there are people listening who

want to dig into this topic a lot deeper. So I'm going to send them to your book, Promotions Made Easy, Amazon or wherever you buy books. Also, Stacey has a podcast, Women Changing Leadership, available on any platform. And then of course, you can follow her on LinkedIn at Stacey Mayer and Instagram at Corporate Badass. We'll put all of this in show notes. Stacey, thank you so much for this very important conversation. Thank you, Nicole. I want to leave you with this loving reminder. You are your most important advocate.

And I've worked with enough women to know that you're probably telling yourself that there's something you need to do to get ready before you ask for that promotion or that raise or that opportunity. Stop it. Stop waiting to feel ready. Ready isn't a destination. It's a choice. And frankly, you'll never be 100% ready for something you've never done before.

It's not an available option. Of course, there are things that you can do to prepare and to strategize. But at the end of the day, we all must choose confidence on the road to competence. Confidence is not about having no doubts. It's trusting yourself in spite of the doubts. With knees shaking, voice wobbling, and palms sweating, go in there and ask for the promotion, raise in position you've earned. Courage isn't not being afraid.

It's doing it in spite of the fear, in the face of it. Confidence, courage, and getting recognized and paid for your incredible work. Well, that's absolutely and unequivocally woman's work.