This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 121 / Glass Ceilings & Sticky Floors with Erica Rooney

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

Why do we call it a “glass ceiling?” I’m assuming it’s because the barriers we face as women in the workforce often are invisible, intangible, unofficial and artificial. It’s that impenetrable barrier that keeps qualified individuals, like us, from ascending to higher level positions. But, in my experience, the glass ceiling feels more like a dam. We SEE it, we just don’t know how to break it or get to the other side. Our guest today is here to talk about both glass ceilings and sticky floors. Erica Rooney is an Executive Coach & Consultant, Chief People Officer - who is on a mission, to support women to break out of their “sticky floors”, and bust through the glass ceilings to live a life filled with purpose and passion. Here’s what I know: You are so much more powerful than you think you are. When you stand in your power, you know what to do. To learn more about Erica you can visit her website at: www.fromnowtonext.org To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com.

Here's a thought from our guest today, but you're going to have to listen to the full episode to get all the mind-blasting moments. One of the questions that I get asked all the time is, are we ever free from our sticky floors? And the answer is no. They will continue to show up, but you are just getting smarter and stronger and you have the ability to recognize it and challenge that. I am Nicole Kalil, and I'm going to kick off this episode of This is Woman's Work by sharing a shower insight.

You know what I mean, right? That thing that happens when you're standing in the shower, jumping from one thought to the next so much that you wonder, how did I get here? Why am I thinking about this? And how long have I been lathering? It's in those moments where I feel like I've lost time that I often have my best ideas. It also happens when I'm running, but I rarely feel like I can't breathe or I'm going to pass out when I'm in the shower and it's all warm and steamy. So I think we can agree. It's just a better option than running. So my brain went from what I need to accomplish today and what I need to do. And do I need to put on real pants too? Why do we call it a glass ceiling?

And there were lots of thoughts in between that got me there, but that was the thought that felt important. Why glass ceiling? I'm assuming it's because the barriers we face as women in the workforce aren't visible. Like what's keeping us from the highest levels of professional hierarchy are invisible, intangible, unofficial, or artificial. It's that impenetrable barrier that keeps qualified individuals like us from ascending

to higher level positions. Except my thought was that when you're experiencing it, it doesn't feel at all invisible. I feel from personal experience and from the women that I talk to that oftentimes it has a name or even a face. We can point to a reason or a person or a culture and say that, that is why someone less qualified was just promoted or advanced over me. It's not that we can't see it. It's that we feel we can't do anything about it. We feel helpless or crazy or like we just need to prove ourselves more or work harder. The glass ceiling feels more to me like a dam. We see it. We just don't know how to break

it or how to get to the other side of it. So that was my shower insight. And while I think about a lot of stuff like this on a regular basis, in this particular case, it was because I'd started the mental preparation for my conversation with our guest today, who is here to talk about glass ceilings and sticky floors. Erica Rooney is an executive coach, consultant, and chief people officer who's on a mission to support women to break out of their sticky floors and bust through the glass ceilings, which I'll now be referring to as dams. Erica, thank you so much for being here.

And I want to start by getting your reaction to my shower insight. Are the barriers really invisible or do most people see them and at least know what they are or can name them? Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Super excited to be here. And I love the insight that you put together. And I actually, I've got like six different thoughts ping-ponging around in my brain for that. Because I believe that we call it this glass ceiling, not because we necessarily can't see it, but we can see through it to all of those other people who are sitting

on the other side in the corner office, making bank, living life, not having to worry about being called a bitch or unreasonable or emotional and having zero problems climbing the corporate ladder. So that was one piece that kind of like bebopped into my brain, right? I like that. That makes sense as individuals. Yeah. And then the second piece of it is I do believe that we can name a lot of it, right? And we can say, this is why I'm being held back. But I think that it is very challenging sometimes for that to be tangible. You know, I mean, yes, you hear about these horrific cases where, you know, every woman in a certain company is not promoted and not paid, but usually it's not like that. You know, usually it's a lot more subtle, things You don't notice things that are done because of good intentions, I suppose,

but they don't realize the impact that it has. And then also just society and cultural norms. You know, we talk, I talk a lot with my clients about the good old boys club and a whole bunch of men who all work together, who want to get together and go out and go golfing. There's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, I don't golf. I will never be invited on a golf trip. And if I get invited on a golf trip, I'm not going to go because I don't want to play golf. So I am then seeing all of these things that are happening around me. Decisions will be made. Connections will be formed.

Relationships will be solidified that I'm not a part of, you know? So all of those things, very intangible, very innocent, but they keep us held back. And it's not that I can't see that that's happening, but I often don't realize the impact that it has. Yeah. I mean, I have a very real, very personal golf story myself. The short version is, you know, the executive that was going to, who's like the primary decision maker of who makes it to the higher levels of the corporation that I worked in

came out, wanted to golf. And, you know, all the men in my organization were invited, not me. That would have been, I don't know how many hours, four hours where I could have formed a relationship, had conversation. And by the way, all the men that were invited either had no interest or no opportunity to get to those higher levels. I would have been the most logical or likely, but that's a really good example. It's intangible. Nobody was sitting around, you know, trying to exclude me or be mean. It just was a really big missed opportunity. Okay. So I think we all know the term glass ceilings. And I do, when I said, I like that,

I like your description of we can see through it and we see what's happening on the other side. And it is a barrier. I don't like that it's happening, but I liked your description of we can see through it and we see what's happening on the other side. And it is a barrier. I don't like that it's happening, but I liked your description of it. What about sticky floors? I haven't heard that expression as much. Just tell us a little bit about what that means. Yeah. So sticky floors are the limiting beliefs, behaviors, actions that we, especially as women, are doing that are holding us back? And I love to just take a minute and talk about reality for a second, and that it is going to take approximately 132 years for us to reach equal pay as men, if we're progressing at the rate that we are moving now.

I am not going to see that in my lifetime. My daughter is not going to see that in her lifetime. Now, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to move the needle. We absolutely should be pouring our life's work into that. But we also need to take a moment, realize that it is always going to be a challenge for us, and then make a decision about what can we do internally to help us break through the glass ceiling in our own manner. So those sticky floors can show up as imposter syndrome. It can show up as perfectionism, the fear of failure, the fear of judgment, what other people will think of us. And it can also show up in the form of a toxic relationship. Maybe you have a partner, a spouse, a friend, a colleague that isn't believing in you fully and it's keeping you small. It can also be toxic behaviors, right? Any type of addiction or gambling or, you know, putting something off, right?

Procrastination. Those are all toxic behaviors that can be keeping you held back and not full potential. All are within our realm of control. We just have to take a moment. And my three-step framework that I always use is name it. So you have to be able to have that mature emotional intelligence to say, wow, I'm going through a bout of perfectionism right now. Step two is then questioning it. Is this true?

Is this helpful? What's the worst thing that could happen? Are some great questions to ask. And then the final question or the final thought is shifted. So how can I shift my mindset to get me out of this sticky floor, right? If we're looking at perfectionism, one of the examples I love to use is with me and working out. So I am a fitness fanatic. I was raised on working out. My first job was as a health and wellness coordinator with Verizon, doing nothing but working out. So it's absolutely a piece of me. And then when I transferred into

corporate, that did not go away. But I had this mentality that if I didn't get 30 minutes of cardio followed by strength training, it was not worth anything. So, you know, you can see this. I've got my gym behind me. My husband would come up here and he'd be like, I've only got 15 minutes. I got to get it in. And I remember looking at him being like, you are an idiot. 15 minutes. Isn't going to do shit. You know, it doesn't count. What are you wasting your time for? You know? And then I started to notice that those 15 minutes started to add up and I was getting in zero minutes and he was having an hour more of exercise than me a week. And it wasn't about, he was getting an hour and I wasn't getting any, it was just about, you know, if you really wanted to save a hundred dollars and I handed you 20, you wouldn't be like, no, thanks. It's not a

hundred Erica. You would take the 20 and you'd move on. And so that's where I started to notice that my perfectionism would creep in. And once I started to get that awareness around it, I started to ask myself the questions. Is it helpful for me to not do anything versus getting whatever time I had in done. Absolutely not. Was it true? Absolutely not. What's the worst that could happen? I would get some movement in, but not as much as I wanted to.

That's it, right? So I started to shift my mindset and notice when I was feeling that way and that icky kind of, and I would talk myself into getting something done. You know, I would talk myself into it's okay to do a 20 minute walk outside rather than hill sprints in this whole drastic workout. If I didn't have the mental energy to work out, you know, and once I started to change that, my stress levels really started to go down. You know, I let go of this false belief in this false narrative that it wasn't good enough,

you know, but it's something that I still have to work at every day. One of the questions that I get asked all the time is, are we ever free from our sticky floors? And the answer is no, they will continue to show up, but you are just getting smarter and stronger and you have the ability to recognize it and challenge that. Okay. So there were a lot of good things in there that I want to unpack. So I'm trying to differentiate between sticky floors and glass ceilings. It sounds like glass ceilings is a little bit more external and sticky floor is a little more internal or the thought came

into my head is like glass ceilings is how people see us or perceive us. And sticky floors is a little bit more about how we perceive ourselves. Yes. Is that, am I on the right track here? You're tracking correct. Okay. And it's funny. Some of the examples you used are what I call the confidence derailers, which are basically perfectionism, judgment, funny, some of the examples you used are what I call the confidence derailers, which are basically perfectionism, judgment, comparison, fear of failure, you know, like all of those head trash, all those things. And I liked your three-step process. I have something similar.

I say, name it, sort it, and replace or reframe it. So basically name the thing. When I say sort it, it's sort of decide what you want to do with it. Does, do you want to keep it? Do you want to use it in a different way? Do you need to discard it and set it aside? And then the replace and reframe it is basically take it and come up with a more productive, more empowered way to see it. So, so much alignment there, but I do know from personal experience and then the work that we do, a lot of this stuff is easier said than done. So you gave a great example. What would your advice be to somebody who wants to tackle a limiting belief? Where do you start? I a hundred

percent agree with you and that the hardest part is doing the work, but the hardest part is also naming it because these are unconscious beliefs. It's not like we, you know, are having this epiphany every day. Sometimes you are sitting in that uncomfortableness, and I was talking about this with someone earlier, but sometimes you need someone to call you out on your own BS, you know, and that's what it takes. And you're like, wow, I didn't even realize I was doing that. You know, so you have to be very open to critique, to positive criticism, right. And just be receptive. Don't be, you know, like, no, that's not true. Don't be defensive. Own it, listen to it, decide if it serves you. That's a great way to look at it. You know, I love that. And then do the work, right? And you've heard this. It's about being comfortable being uncomfortable. And I know that

that is said a lot, but it is so true. And you can never unring the bell. Once somebody or yourself becomes aware of such limiting belief that is holding you back, you can't unknow it. You can't unsee it. And you are then wiser, smarter, and stronger. Then you just have to make the decision to act, whatever that may be for you. And it's so interesting because the more I do this work and the more I work with women on this, it actually brings me closer in alignment to my sticky floors. And in the very beginning, when I started my podcast and these women were coming on my show and they were sharing their sticky floor moments, I was going, oh my God, me too. Me too. And then I was like, wow,

I'm really messed up. Oh God, Erica. But now I can work through it. These women are sharing their stories and I'm seeing a piece of me reflected in them. And I'm saying, okay, number one, that's fabulous because I'm not alone. But number two, it does bring this level of awareness. And I will share a story with you. I went to a keynote speaking bootcamp not too long ago. And I'm typically a very outgoing person. And I signed up. I didn't know anybody there.

And I bebopped on in there. And I very quickly realized everybody knew everyone here. They had been to this bootcamp four, five, six times. And I was a very tiny fish in a pond filled with whales. People who were doing this for a living for years. They had several books written. They were charging $40,000 a keynote. And I was like, holy shit.

I like, what am I doing here? And I was so uncomfortable that whole first night. I wanted to get out of this welcome dinner and just go back to my room and decompress. And while I was in the elevator, just kind of processing my emotions, the light bulb went off. You are going through imposter syndrome right now. Like it's been a hot minute, but you are absolutely going through imposter syndrome right now. And as soon as I was able to name it, I started questioning it. Absolutely not helpful. I paid a lot of money to be here. You know, it wasn't going

to serve me if I stayed small. And I made the decision that I would go all in. I, whatever, if they asked for volunteers, I would raise my hand. I would introduce myself to as many people as possible. And I went through just this mental transformation of how I could handle the weekend or the week. And the next day they asked for volunteers to share kind of like their blurb of what their keynote was. And I, you know, got up with my heart racing and my palms sweating. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. And I said it. And as soon as I finished, people were cheering, you know, everyone was like,

wow, that was amazing. I love it. It's such an important cause. And then two agents even walked up to me afterward to say, I want to talk to you. And I, and it was such a great experience because it was feeling of imposter syndrome, naming it, deciding to act against it, and then quickly reaping the reward. Oh, I love those moments. It doesn't happen all the time that way. But when you get one of those, you're like, OK, this is a story, right? This is an example I can share with people.

OK, I want to hone in on the naming it part because I do think this is one of those things that we think is really simple or really easy, but is actually really hard and harder for women. And I think, unfortunately, we're making it even harder. And here's my philosophy around this. I think we've gotten too quick to tell people, you know, positive affirmations or, you know, if somebody says, I'm feeling this, we very quickly go, you're not that, you're this, you're beautiful, you're brave, you're blah, blah, blah. We sort of bypass the power of naming something. I say confidence is when you know who you are and own who you're not. The owning who you're not part is so freeing and so powerful. Yet I think we are setting ourselves up to avoid it at all costs.

So you gave the example of somebody giving you the feedback or challenging you or something like that. I don't think that's happening very often in today's day and age. How do we get somebody to give us real feedback? And how do we name it without internalizing it or without making ourselves bad, right? Like I'm experiencing imposter syndrome, not I'm an imposter or I'm a failure or there's something wrong with me, or I'm experiencing doubt, not I can't do it. I'm not sure if I'm phrasing my question very well, but there's something in this that is really a big struggle. I think for so many people, the naming

it without internalizing it. Yes. And I think too, especially for, for women, the higher we go up this corporate ladder, the less and less feedback we receive. You know, people are, people are hesitant to share direct feedback with their leader or with someone above them in the company, even if they see it. Right. And that's when you get these leaders who are just like these tyrants just going for it. And I am a big believer in number one, creating a team around you. If you're in corporate, or if you have a team that works with you or for you, that is not afraid to give feedback, direct feedback. And if they're not going to give you this in an ongoing basis, creating the forum where they can do it. You know, I actually had a great exercise with my team that reports to me. And I was like, we're all going to give everybody feedback,

myself included. I was like, we're going to go around. We're going to say, what is the best thing? And then where, what can you do to help? Right. And one of my favorite moments so far has been with my team. And the one person was like, Erica, you create too many damn spreadsheets. Like you're so excited about it, but you create a spreadsheet for everything. And as soon as she said that, I was like, you were absolutely correct. But I never would have thought of that. So creating that safe space for feedback. And then I'm also a huge believer in having a board of directors.

And this includes someone that is at your level doing the work that you're doing. So they are in it with you. It is someone that you can kind of go to and say, here's exactly what I'm experiencing. What about you? Someone who has already done the work who can look back and say, you know, I see you're kind of handling it this way. You may want to shift. And then also just people who are going to give it to you straight. There are not a lot of people in this world that feel comfortable and confident in giving it to you straight. So you've

got to seek that person out. You've got to foster that relationship. And then you have to have a really strong relationship with yourself and that you allow yourself to be open to all of that feedback. Yeah. So I love the board of directors idea. And I really like very specifically that you talked about the different types of people you want in there. And I, I can't overemphasize the agreement I have in surrounding yourself with some truth tellers. I will add truth tellers doesn't mean people are jerks. Like sometimes we think, you know, I'm just giving to you straight. And it's like, no, that's not a permission slip to be a dick, you know, like being a truth teller from a place of loving and caring and wanting the best for somebody is what

I think we're talking about with truth tellers here. I also think there's an element of owning that it's your truth. This is the way I see it. I'm telling you the truth from my perspective. That doesn't mean it's fact, you know, with a capital F. And then we have the opportunity and the obligation to sort through that information and decide, does it land? What do we want to do with it? Number one, you can say what you mean, just don't say it mean. Oh, I love that. Yep. And then number two, not all feedback is good feedback, but it is an invitation for you to understand the other person. I love that. Yeah. So when I first entered the C-suite, I did a 360

with my peers. It was part of a leadership development group. And I got the feedback from a person that said that I was too much. You know, I was too much. If I toned down my messaging, I would be better received. And as a brand new C-level executive, new to the company, new to the team, I very much was like, oh my God, I've got to tone it down. I'm being too extra. I know I'm loud. And I was like, I've got to make myself small. And I happened to share this story with my mother. And she said, F that Erica, like that is some bullshit. She's like, you got to that role because of who you are, because of you being extra, right? Because you are loud and you speak up. And, you know,

we had a small enough executive team that I knew pretty well who gave that feedback. So I very much was like, okay, but now I know how to communicate with this person. I'm not changing myself, but I am making it so that this person is more receptive to what I have to say, but I embraced my extraness. So I took the little piece of feedback. It did not serve me. I decided that I thanked everybody for their feedback and I moved on with my day. So again, reminds me of something that I often say is that feedback says more about the person giving it than the person receiving it. It gives us insight into how the person giving the feedback sees the world or what they value or how they

perceive things. But we have to be careful to not dismiss feedback just because we don't like it. And at the same time, we have to be careful that we don't internalize feedback just because we don't like it. And at the same time, we have to be careful that we don't internalize feedback just because it's given, right? We, that there's that sort of sorting process. Okay. We've spent so much time on the sticky floors and I think it's, it's where I live too. You know, my, my focus is on people building confidence because it's something we have power and control over and the glass ceiling stuff sometimes feels like we, it's completely out of our hands or there's not a lot we can do about it. But I would love to close us out by asking if you have any tips or ideas or insights into what we might be doing to address the glass ceilings, not just the sticky floors?

Absolutely. So I am fortunate that I am in a C-level position in a company. I can control my messaging out and I can work with my C-level leaders to change the narrative. So for example, one thing that I make sure that I do inside my company is I'm a working mom. You know, if you could see behind me, there's Legos, there's toy cars. I leave every day at three o'clock to go pick up my kids from school. It's a blessing that I have because we are working from home. We need to do carpool. I pick them up every day. Number one, every single person that needs to have a meeting with me knows that I'm not available because I am picking up my

kid. I don't just tell them, sorry, I'm busy or can't do it. You know, I very intentionally let them know that I'm picking up my child. And I also let them know that when we get home, they are sitting next to me doing homework. So I take all of my very important meetings during the school hours. And the other ones are meetings that we can have with my kids present. You will often see them pop in and out of my Zoom calls because I am a mom before I am an employee. And I want every single person in that company to feel like they don't have to choose between their home life and their job. You know, I remember feeling before I was in the C-level when I was an individual contributor, I remember feeling like I had to lie about picking a kid up or a sick kid or an appointment.

And I remember like trying to sneak out of the office so nobody would see me if I needed to leave early to get a kid. And that is just such a gross feeling. And I don't want anyone to feel that way. So part of it is equalizing, right, working moms and family. Another piece is being very proactive when it comes to your salary ranges inside a company, right? So if you are interviewing a woman for a VP level role and she asks for the bottom of a range and she's very qualified, you need to just go higher. Don't worry about the fact that it's gonna save you $20,000, right?

You need to do the right thing. It used to be that companies would be like, oh, score, she wanted less than our range, awesome. But that's what creates those inequities. So if you are a people leader or anyone in a position of power in a company, you need to think about how your actions are intentionally closing the gap or keeping the gap. Oh, such good tips in there. I'm going to just reiterate, if you're a woman or a man or any gender, then you're standing close to the glass or you happen to be on the other side of the glass. You got to pick

up a hammer and start beating the shit out of the glass. Absolutely. It's, I think I consider it a responsibility, almost an obligation. I would also add, you know, I like what you just said. I had a conversation recently with somebody who hired a woman as part of her team and paid her a lot more than she was making your previous role. But then the woman had asked for an increased compensation and she was feeling like a little weird about it. Like, am I being taken advantage of? And ultimately what we got down to is she was asking to be compensated at a fair level for the role that she was in. But the woman was looking at it as I'm paying her so much more than she was making before. And I'm like, listen, you're not coming from a bad place.

You did a great thing by offering her. But now you've got to look at the role that she's in and all of that. I don't know why this popped in my head, but like the people who clean my house are the most wonderful people. And they do something that is so helpful to me physically and mentally. But when I asked how much they charged, they said, and I, I just pay them 20% more because what they said did not feel right, the right amount. And so when we have the privilege or we're in the position, we need to act on it. That's what I heard you say. Absolutely. And I did the same thing with my family photographer, you know, when he came in and this was a man surprisingly, but he came in

and gave me his price. And I was like, that doesn't seem right. Yeah. But it is our duty and our responsibility to create an equitable workplace, not treat it like, you know, it's a war to be conquered and that we won the salary war because we came in $20,000 lower. Right. Oh, so good. Okay. Erica, I feel like we could talk about this forever, but if you're listening and you want to learn more about Erica and her work, go to her website from now to next.org. And she also has a phenomenal podcast also called from now to next, check that out. We'll put more information in show notes. This is a big topic, a big conversation. We had no hopes of answering all the questions in 30 minutes or less, but thank you for such incredible insights and encouragement. And I, you know, even a little bit of a kick in the ass, which I think we could all use sometimes. So Erica, thank you for being

here. Absolutely. It was amazing conversation and you're right. We could probably have it for the whole rest of the day and still have more to talk about. Okay. Friends, I'm going to close us out by asking the big question my shower insight led me to. How do we get to the other side of the damn dam? So I did what I often do when I have a question I don't totally know the answer to. I googled it. I searched, how do dams break? The answer, overtopping caused by floods, acts of sabotage, structural failure of the materials used to create and construct the dam, or the sudden, rapid, and uncontrolled release of impounded water. That's right. Water is so much more powerful than we think it is.

You are so much more powerful than you think you are. And maybe a little sabotage and structural failure wouldn't be the worst thing. So I'm going to leave it at that and trust that you, when you stand in your power and let it flow, that you know what to do. And that is woman's work.