This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 125 / How To Be An Ally with Aisha Suleiman

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

On this episode of This Is Woman’s Work we’re going to talk about how to be an ally. And since about 90% of our listeners are women, I’m talking mostly about WOMEN being allies women. More speci...fically, how we can be allies to Black women. Because, in my opinion, there isn’t a group of women who have the right to demand it more. And I’m so tired of constantly letting them down. I’ve asked Aisha Suleiman to join me for this necessary conversation, as she’s an award-winning diversity and inclusion leader, entrepreneur, and keynote speaker. Her company, The Inclusive Culture, helps organizations build a sense of community by empowering their employee resource groups and encouraging allyship in the workplace. Recognized as an EMpower 100 Ethnic Minority Future Leaders (2020), Aisha has worked with renowned global brands like Amazon and IPG Mediabrands. In 2022, Aisha launched True White Allies – a ground-breaking film project that shares the stories of historical White anti-racists from as early as the 1700s to inspire increased allyship and action. I have a strong belief that we can’t make any real, lasting progress as women, if ALL women aren’t considered, included, and advocated for. Let’s be in action, big and small, public and private, proactively and reactively… in action, together. Being an ally… now THAT is woman’s work. To learn more about Aisha and her work go to https://www.theinclusiveculture.com or follow her on IG @IAmAishaSuleiman or on Youtube at https://www.youtube.com/@aishasuleiman Sign up for True White Allies Community: https://truewhiteallies.com/community To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com. Email

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Starting point is 00:00:00 I'm going to give you a little sneak peek into today's episode so you can prepare yourself for the awesomeness that's about to occur. And I think that we need to shift the narrative and show that actually there's always been people who have stood up for justice and have always looked at things and said, actually, no Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk about how to be an ally. Now that you heard the topic, you might be thinking this is going to be a message to the men in our lives, the corporate leaders, the businessmen, the fathers and the husbands, about how to better support and advocate for women. Sounds like an episode I would do, right? And one day we will do that episode. I've been vetting guests for that topic for a couple of years, and I'm fairly certain that any insight my guest shares today will be applicable for the men in our lives too. But this message isn't about men being allies to
Starting point is 00:01:07 women. That's not the allyship we're talking about here. Today, we're going to talk specifically about being an ally to Black women. And since about 90% of our listeners are women, I'm talking mostly about women being allies to Black women. Because in my opinion, there isn't a group of women who have the right to demand it more. And I'm so tired of constantly letting them down. I've asked Aisha Suleiman to join me for this necessary conversation as she's an award-winning diversity and inclusion leader, entrepreneur, and keynote speaker. Her company, The Inclusive Culture, helps organizations build a sense of community by empowering their employee resource groups and encouraging allyship in the workplace.
Starting point is 00:01:56 Recognized as an Empower 100 ethnic minority future leaders in 2020, Aisha has worked with renowned global brands like Amazon and IPG Media Brands. In 2022, Aisha launched True White Allies, a groundbreaking film project that shares the stories of historical white anti-racists from as early as the 1700s to inspire increased allyship and action. Aisha, thank you for being here to discuss how we can be better allies to Black women. I'd love to start by talking about your films, True White Allies, and how the characters are powerful role models for what it means to be an ally. Yeah, so this all started in 2020. So then I was still working at Amazon. I was leading the Black Employee Network. And in the UK, we kind of had our own reckoning. So when George Floyd was murdered, you know, worldwide protests. But then in the UK, the conversation
Starting point is 00:02:59 was, hey, it's not just in the US. You also have problems here with racial inequality. So there were a lot of people reaching out and reaching out to the Black Employee Network saying, oh, what can we do? And I was very happy that people were waking up, but also a bit annoyed, I have to say, because I thought to myself, this is not a new conversation. Like this conversation has been had for decades. Right. But then also a little voice at the back of my head said, you know, why is it always, you know, the black and brown people that have to answer this question for you? Surely there were white people who fought against things like racism, slavery, colonialism in the past. And then I thought about it and I was like, oh, actually, I don't really know a lot of them.
Starting point is 00:03:40 So I love to research things. So then I went down this rabbit hole and I thought, okay, let me find the white people then who was fighting against slavery and I actually found quite a lot of people and it was very interesting to see that even back then so if we take the UK for example there was something that was called gradual abolition so gradual abolition meant that even after they ended slavery they said said, oh, you know, we will just make you apprentices for a couple of years. The idea was they were teaching the enslaved people how to be free. So you had some of these white people on this side saying, oh, gradual abolition. But then there was another set of white people who were like, no,
Starting point is 00:04:20 immediate abolition, none of this waiting thing. We need to get rid of it right now. We're not going to stand for this. And I started thinking to myself, I feel like you still see that dynamic play out today. You know, you have some people on one side who are like, oh, you know, let's be nice about it. You know, we need to be patient. We need to like take our time.
Starting point is 00:04:39 But then you have people who, you know, feel the sense of urgency and they're like, no, we need to go, let's do this and let let's do that so it was very fascinating for me to see that even back then in the 1800s you still sort of saw that dynamic during the research was very enlightening for me because I felt like it was almost like the story shouldn't be told or almost like they were hidden because often when you talk about things like slavery and colonialism, people say, oh, that's just how it was back then. But then I realized, actually, that's a lie. There were people who were against it back then.
Starting point is 00:05:12 They just weren't listened to. And so now this is the narrative and it's simply not true. And I think that we need to shift the narrative and show that actually there's always been people who have stood up for justice and have always looked at things and said, actually, no, that's not how it should be. Can we dive into one or two of these historical stories and use them as examples of the actions that we can take and the powerful lessons of what it means to be an ally that we can learn from them?
Starting point is 00:05:44 Yeah, so I'll pick two women, actually. So the first one I'll pick is Elizabeth Hayrick. So she was in the UK, and a lot of British people, so when I mention Elizabeth Hayrick to a lot of British people, they have no idea who she is, right? If you mention William Wilberforce, a lot of British people are like, oh yeah, you know, he was the guy championing the cause, trying to get slavery ended. when I did my research what I found was he was actually in the camp of gradual abolition and Elizabeth Haywick was in the camp of immediate abolition but for some reason her history has just been swept aside and you know everyone looks at Wilberforce as this hero and nobody even talks about her so she's not even recognized what i love the most about her is
Starting point is 00:06:26 so she was busy organizing boycotts right so back in the day her point was um sugar was one of the main uh products that was being made due to the slave trade so she said okay let's boycott sugar if we can get sugar boycotted and get people not using it then maybe that will get the enslavers to stop doing it um and she printed out pamphlets and she had this uh women's group so they were all she got over them to campaign against slavery and they did different tactics and i just thought to myself she didn't even have social media that is creative i thought i really want to tell her story because I felt yeah she was swept aside but she was campaigning and even though you know a lot of men were saying oh gradual abolition
Starting point is 00:07:12 she's like nope there needs to be a sense of urgency we need to get rid of this now so what we can learn from her is you know often in the workplace what I hear people say is oh you know it's going to take time and yes some things do take time because just in general, any sort of change management, I mean, even if you step away from the workplace, let's say you want to gain weight or you want to lose weight, that is going to take time, right? But sometimes I find that people say things are going to take time, but they are the ones causing the problem in the sense that it's taking time because you don't want to move quickly. So just before you say something is going to take time, make sure it's not because of you. And it's something that can actually be, if it can be moved along quicker, then yes,
Starting point is 00:07:53 always try and move things along quicker. Don't just say things are going to take time because you don't want to do it. And that it doesn't become the excuse for inaction, right? Like it's going to take time. Sometimes I think that leads to people sort of throwing up their hands in the air. I liked the analogy you used of yes, you know, strengthening your muscles or losing weight, you know, when you're working out as an example, takes time, but you have to do it in order to get the result. You can't just say it takes time and then do nothing. Exactly. Exactly. And then the second woman I want to talk about is Abby Kelly Foster,
Starting point is 00:08:31 who is from Massachusetts, which is where you tell me you are. And so, yeah, she was also someone else that I thought was really fantastic because one of her quotes, and then when I saw it, I just loved it. She said, I rejoice to be identified with the despised people of color. If they are to be despised, so ought their advocates to be. Because that to me is basically an ally, right? So it's not about centering yourself and you're just aligning yourself and saying, hey, even if I'm going to face backlash for this, even if I'm going to miss something, this is what I think is the right way to do things. And that's what she did. So the other thing as well is she also had a husband and they had a farm and her farm was actually a stop on the
Starting point is 00:09:17 underground railroad. So again, it's not just talking, it was also acting. So she used her property. So now it's things like using your wealth, whether it's making just talking, it was also acting. So she used her proxy. So now it's things like using your wealth, whether it's making donations, whether it's supporting nonprofit organizations. So she actually used her assets to further the cause. And the other thing is she didn't just believe in what I call baby equality. So back in that time, there was a time that um so I think this was when black men got the right to vote because black men got the right to vote in the U.S. before white women did and some of the other feminists at the time so they resorted to using racist statements so saying things like oh you know how how dare you know black men get the right to vote before us
Starting point is 00:10:02 and all of this stuff and she didn't do. So I feel like she's someone who understood the importance of intersectionality. I mean, ideally, yes, everyone got the right to vote at the same time, but she sort of didn't put down the fact that, oh, Black men got the right to vote and didn't resort to racism to campaign for women's rights. So two things went into my mind as you were talking. I read about Abby Kelly Foster prior to our conversation on your website, and the thought kind of jumped into my head as you were speaking as well about the feminist movement and how, in my opinion, one of the greatest mistakes, that's not even the right word, offenses that the feminist movement has made is to not advocate for all women and for all of the issues
Starting point is 00:10:55 that are facing so many different women. So I guess my question is, how do you think the feminist movement or those of us that identify as feminists are serving or harming Black women? Because, you know, feminism is about women, but Black women, Latinas, Asian women, I think often aren't as well served by the feminist movement as white women are. So I guess long-winded way of asking your opinion on that. Yeah, absolutely. So it's things like not acknowledging racism as a feminist issue, because to me, it's exactly as you said, it's about what are women's issues, right? So if you look at that, it's things like racism, there's also classism, and then there's also women with disabilities, right? Because if someone has aism and then there's also women with disabilities right because
Starting point is 00:11:47 if someone has a disability and then they're a woman that then compounds you know the challenges that they face so it's this lack of understanding intersectionality that someone is not just a woman it's like you can be a woman you can be black you can have a disability you can even be trans as well, right? So it's that whole thing of all just gender. And what you found was, I would say prior to 2020, a lot of companies would say, oh, we're focusing on women. But what you would notice is their idea of what a woman was, was very, very narrow, right? And it wasn't acknowledging all of these different intersectionalities. And so it can be quite frustrating. And another thing that happens in the workplace is often you see women's ERGs. So women's employee resource groups, they'll say, oh, you know, how can we engage Black women and women of color? They don't show up to
Starting point is 00:12:34 the events. You know, maybe if there's an Asian ERG or they're only going to that ERG or if there's a Black ERG or all the Black women are joining the Black ERG. Yeah, because those ERGs are talking about their problems, right? So if you're not talking about the issues and you're only focusing on what matters to you, then that's what's going to alienate those groups. Okay, that leads right into the next thing I wanted to talk about that you've already mentioned a couple of times, and that's intersectionality. The way I have it in my mind is that none of us are just one thing. We identify in so many different ways and facets of our lives, whether it be gender, race, religion, social class, sexual orientation, or so many other ways. What does intersectionality mean and what's at play specifically for Black women? Yeah, it's exactly what you said. So no one is just one thing. So people are many different things. And when you're looking at things like tackling societal inequality, you have to look at the broader picture and think about how all of these isms intersect in order to be able to create a solution that could benefit everyone
Starting point is 00:13:46 right um there's a really good talk on this the urgency of intersectionality by kimberly french rock so she did a ted talk on this and she did a really interesting experiment where she asked people everyone to get up and she mentioned names of black men who had been killed by the police in the US. And a lot of people recognized the names. And then she said, OK, she mentioned some black women and people just kept sitting down. And by the time she was done mentioning all the names, there was barely anyone still standing up. So the people who were standing up were the ones who actually recognized the names of the black women. So even within the black community, that's something that happens. Often, you know, I say to people, when we say
Starting point is 00:14:29 Black Lives Matter, we're not talking about straight black men. But for some people, they do basically center men, because I feel like in general, society tends to center men. So it's something that also happens within the black community. So it's looking at actually all of those different groups, what are the issues that they face in order to come up with a solution that is all-encompassing. So yeah, intersectionality, as you said perfectly, is people are not just one thing, so you can't create one solution to fit everyone. Something you said earlier aligns with my experience in the work that I've done with corporations or women's ERGs or women's events and organizations. I found that the Black women who attend identify more closely and strongly with being Black over being women. It sounds like in large part that is because of what you said earlier, that when they attend these types of events, they're not focused or we're not focused on the issues most relevant to them.
Starting point is 00:15:30 So my question is, how can we create a space where women with all of their intersectionality can come together and feel heard, understood, appreciated, and celebrated? I would say ask and listen, right? and feel heard, understood, appreciated, and celebrated? I would say ask and listen, right? So again, if you go to the workplace, what you often find is with, let's say, women's ERGs, they'll organize an event, like a panel, and it'd be like four people, and there's no Black women. So how can you say that this is a panel for women?
Starting point is 00:16:05 It's like, okay, but everyone is of the same background. So automatically you just switch off. And this was something that I used to, that I've noticed across different webplaces. You know, you get the invite, you look through, look through, look through, there's no black women. So although you're telling me this is for women,
Starting point is 00:16:19 where's the representation? And also if you had asked some black women before you put on the event, they would have noticed it and probably pointed it out to you so it's asking and then also listening as well um so that's one thing and then the second thing is just really educating yourself about what are the issues so mckinsey does a lot of studies and a lot of really good reports one of the studies that they've done i think the women in the report. And they sort of mentioned the challenges of different groups. And there was another report that they did that specifically talked about allyship. And I think they focused on Black women.
Starting point is 00:16:54 Anyway, I'll find the report and I'll send it to you so people can look at it in the show notes. But basically what they found was, I think it was three quarter of white employees see themselves as allies. But when you asked Black women and women of color, they were like, no, it's actually less than 50 percent. So there seems to be this gap. And when they were asked, OK, what does allyship actually mean? So it was things like sponsoring black women in the workplace. And I'm specifically mentioning sponsoring because I feel like mentoring is I don't mean to diminish it, but the stakes aren't as high because when you think about mentorship, it's one-to-one, it's in private. No one really needs to know that it's happening, right? But sponsorship is endorsing someone and saying,
Starting point is 00:17:35 hey, I think Nicole is great and Nicole should be put forward for this assignment because then you're putting your name behind it, right? So what I find from my experience in the workplace is, you know, Black women are over-mentored. Everybody wants to mentor us. But when it comes to sponsorship and actually putting your name behind us and backing us up, that's a completely different story. It's listening.
Starting point is 00:17:56 It's also sponsoring as well. Yeah, there is a book called something like Forget a Mentor, Find a Sponsor that I read maybe 10 years ago. And I wish I would have read it 20 years before that. And I could not agree more with the value, especially for underserved women or minority women of a sponsor, even more so than a mentor. One of the things that you said as we're prepping for our conversation is we need to center the most marginalized people in our work.
Starting point is 00:18:29 And that depends on the country you're in. That last part is really interesting to me. What do you see as the nuances and differences across countries? Yeah, so I'll give you an example. So I'm Nigerian born, but British. So British Nigerian. In Nigeria, it's a very religious country, right? So it's a Christian and Muslim majority. If you follow like traditional African religion, you're basically a minority. And a lot of people are even afraid to even say it because it's associated with things like witchcraft or you're evil and all sorts of things, right? So if you're either basically Christian or Muslim, and if you're not religious, well, good luck to you. So your life could actually even be at risk, right? In the UK, it's actually, I think, mostly non-religious. I think the latest census that they did, they found that actually now it's majority not religious. And then, you know, Christian and then the other religions are, you know, being
Starting point is 00:19:26 Muslim, for example. So in the UK, if you are a Muslim, then you're likely to face things like Islamophobia. You would not face Islamophobia in Nigeria. It would actually be the opposite. It would be the person who's not religious that would need to be worried. So those are the nuances that I mean. So depending on which country you you're in whoever is the most marginalized could actually change but interestingly what I find is in a lot of countries you know there's this thing anti-blackness is global so if you go even within for example if we go to Nigeria right so what tends to happen is with some companies international companies they will hire yes Niger, but at the very top, you will see that it's still mostly white people, right? So that's exactly what I mean. Who is the
Starting point is 00:20:13 minority? It depends on the country sometimes. Sure. Yeah. So the idea of asking, listening, talking, and focusing on topics that impact women. I often think of things like the wage gap or getting women into the executive suite. Those things are talked about a lot. And I value these things and believe they're important, but they're not the end-all be-all of all women's issues and possibly have an element of privilege. Would we be better served by talking about topics like access to adequate healthcare, education, freedom of choice? Are there things that we could focus on that would be more inclusive of all women and serve and attract more women? I'd say focus on everything we're already focusing on, but just think about Black women.
Starting point is 00:21:05 So if we take health care, for example, right? So it's probably similar in the U.S., but in the U.K., I think Black women are two or three times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. So it doesn't mean that white women won't die due to childbirth. It's just that it's worse for Black women. So when we're having a conversation about healthcare, it's keeping that in mind and saying, hey, yes, we need to focus on healthcare for women, oh, but we're also noticing this particular part, what's going on there? You know, why is that happening? We need to focus on that. When we talk about things like the wage gap, yeah, there's definitely, you know, still a gender pay gap. And I think gender pay gap is different, slightly different from equal pay, because gender pay gap is more about the fact that we have a lot of men in
Starting point is 00:21:48 senior positions that are earning the high salaries and we don't have enough women in senior positions right so the conversation is we need to get more women into senior positions right or maybe a bit more radical and say hey why don't we just dismantle the whole structure and make it more collaborative right so that we don't have seniors. That's a whole other conversation. But let's say we wanted to stick to the way things are. We need to get more women in senior positions. That's great.
Starting point is 00:22:13 So if we're aiming for 50-50, then, okay, out of that 50% of women, those percentages need to also be broken down to say, okay, there should be white women at the table, Black women, women of Asian descent, Native American women. So rather than just saying women, and then what's going to happen is it ends up being mostly white women. It's then saying, oh, and this. So it's basically focusing on what you're already focusing on, but just being aware about the nuances for each group. That brings me to my next question, which is, what are we doing that we could just be doing better? And what are just absolute mistakes that we are making as women when we think about being an ally to Black women? I think dismissive,
Starting point is 00:23:03 being dismissive. So often what I see happening is when black women talk about their challenges, usually social media, some white women will jump in the comments and say, oh, that's not a race thing. That also happens to me. So that's very dismissive. And it sort of minimizes the experience. So definitely not doing that because I feel like it's also in a way centering yourself because if someone is talking about their experience, jumping in and saying, oh, it's not a race thing,
Starting point is 00:23:33 it also happens to me. The question is, how would you know it's not a race thing because you're not Black and you're not a person of color? So actually, how would you know that it's not a race thing? So just being dismissive and perhaps it also being defensive as well. So if, for example, you've been called in or out as in, OK, you've done this thing and, you know, this thing that you've done is racist, not necessarily you're a racist. This thing that you've done is racist. Then saying things like, oh, I'm not a racist.
Starting point is 00:24:02 You know, look at all the things I've done for Black people, then it then begs the question, is it genuine what you've done, or have you done it because you wanted to sort of pat yourself on the back? So just being very, very reflective. So if you're called in or out, just reflect, think about it, and say, okay, let me think about how I can do better. And part of that is letting go of ego because it's that whole thing of I want to be perfect um and a lot of women we struggle with perfectionism right always wanting to be the good school girl and get everything right and if you make a mistake oh goodness god help everyone around you right so it's it's part of it is that. So it's letting go of that ego and letting go of this need to be perfect.
Starting point is 00:24:48 And just understanding that you're going to mess up and it's fine. It's all about how do you respond when you mess up? Do you sort of get defensive? Do you throw your toys and say, oh, I'm not gonna bother with this. It's just so difficult. Or do you rise up to the occasion and say,
Starting point is 00:25:04 actually, yeah, I did mess up. I'm going to fix it. And then I'm not going to bother with this. It's just so difficult. Or do you rise up to the occasion and say, actually, yeah, I did mess up. I'm going to fix it. And then I'm going to keep going. I'm curious your opinion about social media as it relates to action of being an ally. I see often and have done myself where something horrific and and as you said unfortunately not new but it will be a big thing like George Floyd or I mean there's so many things and all of a sudden white women will post and share on social media helpful hurt? Do you see that as action? I'm curious your thoughts.
Starting point is 00:25:51 Definitely don't reshare traumatic videos or photos because it can be very traumatic for someone to see that. So I'm not a big fan of resharing those, although I do appreciate that, yes, we need to raise awareness, but I don't think you need to share the photo or the video of the thing actually happening to raise awareness. I think't think you need to share the photo of the video of the thing actually happening to raise awareness I think resharing for awareness and also amplifying black voices so amplify people who are talking about it you know organizations who are already doing the work
Starting point is 00:26:17 you know support them donate to them but what I would always say is amplify other voices don't sort of center yourself in the narrative unless you have a huge platform and you want to use your platform to generate awareness in that case then I would say okay invite people from that community to come and speak and sit with you and have a discussion about it so I think yeah if social media can be powerful in terms of amplifying just be mindful of you know not centering yourself and the other thing I would say is it shouldn't just be social media and it doesn't always have to be like an elaborate thing so I think that when people think about how they can be an ally they think that they need to start something new but what I say is why don't you sort of audit your life look at everything that you're
Starting point is 00:27:02 already doing and think about how you can be more supportive of the Black community. So like if you have a business, for example, okay, who are your suppliers? Can some of your suppliers be Black-owned businesses? Who's helping you in terms of like the freelancers? So if you hire freelancers, can you ensure that you're hiring freelancers from the Black community. If you are an angel investor, how can you invest in Black creators, Black business owners? So it doesn't always have to be you going off and starting something new. You could just audit your life
Starting point is 00:27:35 and look at the things that you're already doing. If you listen to podcasts, some of the podcasts, they have Patreons, like you can use to support some of those, even in terms of the content you consume so what films are you watching what kind of music are you listening to what concerts are you going to so people often think it has to be like a big elaborate thing and it
Starting point is 00:27:55 needs to be separate but just look at your life and think about ways that you can embed it and i think that's is what actually makes it long termterm. Yep. Thank you, Aisha. I know I did not ask all the questions. I probably didn't even scratch the surface, but I appreciate you being here and the encouragement to keep doing what we're doing, but just get better and to focus on our actions. If you're listening and you want to stay active and sign up for the True White Allies community, go to truewhiteallies.com forward slash community. You can also go to the inclusiveculture.com, which is Aisha's website, and we will include her YouTube channel, LinkedIn, and Instagram in show notes as well. Aisha, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. I have a strong belief that we can't make any real lasting progress as
Starting point is 00:28:53 women if all women aren't considered included and advocated for. As Aisha said, it will require letting go of ego and perfectionism. We will mess up, but it's about how we respond and how we learn when we do. And thank goodness for that, because that approach will work with just about anything that matters to us. Ego and perfectionism really won't help us create anything of value. Let's think about the intersectionality that exists when we bring women together and ask ourselves, are we asking about what matters most? Are we listening to the answers? It is woman's work to redefine woman's work. And that definition must include and speak to and for Black women.
Starting point is 00:29:41 Let's be in action, big and small, public and private, proactively and reactively, in action, together. Being an ally, now that is woman's work.

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