This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 128 / How To Improve Accommodations For Employees With Disabilities with Jill Griffin

Episode Date: March 8, 2023

I stand for a world where we can show up as our authentic selves and have our differences be valued, appreciated and celebrated. Being a woman is hard in a lot of ways, but there are many women who face extra equity and inclusion challenges in addition to their gender. I’ve asked Jill Griffin to join me today to discuss how we, as leaders, can improve accommodations for people with disabilities. Jill was involved in an accident that led to head trauma, forcing her to rethink and reboot her life and growing career. She has been featured on the WorkLife podcast with Adam Grant, is a Speaker, Executive Coach, and is working with so many big brand names as an Invisible Disabilities Advocate. Let’s be thoughtful, kind and inclusive. Let’s stand for everyone getting to live their truth. Let’s love and support one another not in spite of, but because of, all of our differences. To learn more about Jill and her work go to www.jillgriffincoaching.com or follow her on IG @jillgriffinofficial You can access her career blueprint by clicking here, and check out her podcast The Career Refresh To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com.

Hey you, have you reviewed the This Is Woman's Work podcast on Apple Podcasts yet? Your reviews help us get bigger and better guests, so I need your support. You can write a quick review or just tap the five stars, please and thank you. I am Nicole Kalil, and if you're a regular listener of This Is Woman's Work, you'll know that I'm pretty passionate about equity and inclusion for women. Heck, I think you could probably get the idea from just the name of the podcast. And yes, I advocate pretty hard for women, but it's important to me that in advocating for women, that I don't do it at the expense of anyone else. I am a woman, I work with women, and I'm raising one too. So I feel I can be particularly

relevant in this space, but I'm also committed to standing for the equity and inclusion of all people, all genders, all races and ethnicities, all cultures, all sexual orientations, all identities, all abled and disabled, all people. I stand for a world where we can show up as our authentic selves and have our differences be valued, appreciated, and celebrated. I'm also aware that I drop the ball in my actions, words, and perspectives more often than I'd like. I catch myself using terms like both genders, which implies there are only two gender identities, and I know that that's not true. I even had a listener point out that I used the term walking miracle, and she has a child who's most definitely a miracle, but has spina bifida and can't walk as well as others. So I started using

the term living miracle, and I'm grateful to her for having the courage to bring it to my attention. Being a woman is hard in a lot of ways, but there are many women who face extra equity and inclusion challenges on top of just their gender. I've asked Jill Griffin to join me today to discuss how we, as leaders, can improve accommodations for people with disabilities. Jill was involved in an accident that led to head trauma, forcing her to rethink and reboot her life and growing career. She's been featured on Work Life with Adam Grant, which you know I'm obsessed with, is a speaker, executive coach, and is working with so many big brand names as an invisible disabilities advocate. Jill, thank you so much for having this very important conversation with me today.

And I want to start by asking, what is an invisible disability? First of all, thank you. And thank you for that opening. The opening is, I mean, I feel like it's my rallying cry too. So thank you for taking the time to really break down what you stand for. An invisible disability is a great question. The American Disabilities Association basically defines it as something that would get in the way of your ability to perform your regular tasks. And while that is broad and nebulous,

it is anything from what I have, which is post-traumatic brain injury, superior canal dissonance syndrome, right, vestibular disorders. It's also people who might have early stage MS, who might have severe back or trauma or muscular trauma that necessarily you don't see. An invisible disability doesn't walk in the room with me.

So therefore, it's normal. I understand this, that you would then think I'm able-bodied, and then you make assumptions according to that. And what's happened throughout, and we'll get into this a bit, and what I hear from so many others, is that it's those assumptions that then make it really hard for people with invisible disabilities to get the accommodations they need. Because if you can't see it, you don't believe it. If there's no evidence, you think maybe I'm a prima donna or maybe I'm just complaining or I don't want to work that hard. And accommodation doesn't mean I'm not

doing the work. It just means how I do the work might be slightly differently than the way you do the work, but I'm still held to the same standards of outcome and performance. It's just an accommodation. So there is a lot that you said that resonated with me, but I think the one thing that you said that I'm really glad that you did is this idea that people might perceive it as being, you know, not doing the work or being dramatic or whatever, because it's not in your face obvious because it's not visible. Quick question would like learning disabilities fall in this space? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So what I would love to know is what is different, harder or easier about having an invisible disability versus a visible

one? You're asking such good questions. Okay. So it is not my place to say what is harder for someone else than mine, right? I can only tell you my assumptions as being someone with an invisible disability. So having an invisible disability, I have the privilege of choosing whether or not to disclose. Now there are, there's a blessing in that. And there's also why I ultimately came out because it was like killing me. And I mean, I don't mean literally killing me, but it was killing me to constantly be hiding. So where someone who has a visible disability, perhaps when they enter the room, we see it. So we, assuming we have empathy and compassion, perhaps would not assume able-bodied assumptions against them. Whereas someone with an

invisible disability, let me just take a step back. So I hid because when I first disclosed, I was then fired. I was, I disclosed that I had a disability that I couldn't do certain things like go on the corporate yacht. I couldn't go out in environments where lights were really impacting my vision or my vestibular ability to stand upright. And that therefore it wasn't made clear to me that it was a job requirement, but entertaining clients and going out then as you're in a job became part of what I was expected to do as I advanced. And because I couldn't do it, I was told, I think you can, I think you just don't want to. And within about a week of me disclosing that and then not going to a company event, I was released from a company because I was told I wasn't a team player.

So I made the decision in that moment because I needed corporate sponsored health care. I made the decision in that moment that I was no longer going to disclose. And the other thing that happened is that so many people want to hear a before and after story. They want to hear like, what was your life like before? And then what happened? And oh, what's it like now? And I'm sitting here to tell you, it's the same because you as the employer, because of the choices I made, did not suffer. It was me who suffered. My relationship suffered. My health further deteriorated. Everyone else suffered because I gave it all to my work so that I could continue to perform and

I wanted to perform I wanted to be a high performing individual but I also had to keep that health care so that I could get well so so at times then in subsequent jobs I didn't disclose but I can only imagine how wacky my behavior must have been to my employers and my colleagues. And I'm accountable for that. Right. But if you don't see it, it's, it's like, I didn't disclose at times because the lack of diagnosis and the lack of awareness on brain injuries in general, I didn't want to be seen as like fragile or broken. I didn't want opportunities taken away from me. I also didn't want to have you decide and give me unsolicited advice as to how I could work within the environment better based on assumptions that you can't even see and tell me how to work. So there was the privilege to not disclose and to appear again, I'll use the term normal and

able-bodied. And then, which again is very triggering for some people to call normal, because I don't really believe in normalcy, but just to keep it in real in the language. Yeah. Normal is boring anyway. So. And then there's, then there's the, by, by not disclosing, then I had to keep up in ways in which I couldn't. So I had constant, you know, constant imbalances, loss of balance. You know, we could be in a room and someone without warning can shut the lights and hit the projector and show the video. That could knock me over. We could be jumping into a cab to go to a client meeting and I asked to have the front seat and you're like, no, you like shotgun, you call shotgun. And this is a true story. Now I'm in the backseat with a Walgreens bag and I'm vomiting because of motion. Right. the screen is old and therefore it's giving me not only dizziness, but it's also impacting me where every time I stand up, then I look like I'm drunk. And now people are asking me if I'm

drinking on the job or if I'm taking drugs, right? So those types of things are happening, but after you're hired, there's no container for disclosure. The only time that you can disclose is when you hit that button. Are you disabled? Are you a veteran? And then potentially they might be asking you some things about your gender, your race, et cetera. But that's the only time to disclose. Once you're in the job, and I've worked for publicly traded companies my whole life, there has never been anything in an employee handbook discussing invisible disability. There's been no training for senior management. So you start to see where I'm hiding

because I feel like you're going to discriminate me, but by not disclosing, I'm making myself the victim that I don't want to be. But the system isn't set up to take my disclosure. So you end up being in this scenario where if we want to do better, there's no glide path forward as to how we can do better. Yeah. It seems like it would feel like a no-win situation. Okay. So people have said this to me in my work. It's like, well, that's illegal. And I go, well, you know,

just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not happening. There's a lot of things happening illegally. So as you shared your story of being laid off, I mean, isn't that illegal? Sure. It was illegal then too. So to be clear, I don't think that would happen to me today. I can't obviously speak for others. I don't think that would happen to me today. Again, my injury was in 2002. So this is shortly after that. There's a different level of awareness and I think empathy and compassion that is now going on in the workplace that was not available 20 years ago. It is illegal, but it's nuanced. I mean, no one said to me, you're fired because you didn't go on the boat and you have a disability. They said, your work with us is done and you're not a team player. Meanwhile, everything else in my performance was fine, right?

My reviews showed that I was fine. I had just received a huge bonus, right? Everything was fine, but I wasn't able to do that. So yes, it's illegal, but it's nuanced. I mean, there's enough muddiness in coming forward that you could be further discriminated against. So it really, disclosure really comes down to a personal choice. You have to say the pros and cons for you personally to decide if you want to disclose. So I have it on my kind of list of questions to ask a little bit more about disclosure, but before I get there, I would love to focus in on the creators and keepers of cultures, the leadership teams, the executives. What should

leaders of corporations and businesses be thinking about or accommodating for as it relates to invisible disabilities? Yes. So I believe that the path towards inclusion, right? Inclusion is not a goal. It's a culture. It can't be like on your OKRs. So I believe that the path forward to inclusion is top down and bottoms up approach. So first from the top is that leaders at every level need to be educated. They need to understand how there's, again, there's probably 50 to 100 lists listed on the ADA of what's an invisible disability, but they're being defined at all times, right? And the other thing I want to say is that according to the Social Security Administration, if you are 20 years old today, there is a one in four chance that you will

become temporarily or permanently disabled before reaching retirement age. So if you think about that, you're talking about, you have a 25% chance, talking about a huge impact on your organization. So when you think about it from a top-down, bottoms-up, we want to make sure that we're creating environments where people are trained, right? HR and the growth team needs to be trained too. They're often the ones that get the budgets cut. They're often not funded. So they want to do better, but they don't have the financial or human resources to even do better to be able to put in policies. So you want to make sure that you're doing inclusion, not just for inclusion purposes, because your younger employees are going to sniff it out and you're going to continue to have a culture problem. You want to make sure that you're thinking about the hiring practices that you're putting out there, which is everything from including impact descriptions on job description,

so it's not just about a job description, that you're offering options for audio, video, and in-person interviews. I have a lot to say about those. They're called pre-employment assessment tests, which are really pre-interview assessment tests. They're also incredibly exclusive. You want to be thinking about how you're actually setting up your website and your career page. Are applicants getting timed out? Meaning, do they need a little bit more time? Are you using dyslexic-friendly fonts? Do all of your videos have alt tags? In addition to training leaders so that they know, we also need to make sure that the employee, the accountability is 100% on me to disclose. I don't expect any kindness nor compassion, especially if I haven't disclosed. But if it doesn't feel like it's a psychologically safe environment to disclose, then why would I? So we need to make sure that I'm seeing that there's language and accommodations for people with disabilities, both apparent and non-apparent, in addition that there is senior level training. companies. And I went through much needed training on diversity, equity, inclusion,

you know, racism, ageism, but there was never anything around the disability part. So if I'm a leader and you said there are so many now different things that fall under an invisible disability, I probably can't be prepared for every single one. So assuming I create the safe environment, assuming I make this a priority, if somebody comes in with an invisible disability that I've never experienced before, I don't feel equipped to support, is my go-to the best thing to ask the employee what they need? Do I then go research it? Do I talk to somebody in the medical profession? How do I best support each individual if they come in and need and want accommodations? Yeah, great question. I think it's about inclusion for everyone. So you're not singling people out. you're saying, hey, listen, if anyone needs accommodations in order to get the job done, let me know. You know, it's having preparedness with someone needs a special chair because of a back injury, you know, that it's not a big, there's no like extensive doctor's note and, and, you know, proof that you need this,

you know, we need to have some level of trust with our employees. So again, you making the statement as a leader saying, let me know what your accommodations are. If you need, you know, special headset or phone or screen or software, let me know what you need, but it's not singling out to one particular person, because you're guessing that there may be additional needs required. You're offering it to everyone. I think it's also, it's like you want to bring in the perspective that, you know, inclusion has to naturally align with your culture. So it should be in everything that you're doing is offering that there's equanimity available. You just have to come forward. So if I, and you know, I've spoken

to many people with ID and they've said that they end up working for themselves because it's just too hard. And that's an informal survey, obviously, but most of the time, you know, this was pre working from home environment obviously has made it a little bit easier, but they're working from home because it just means that they can create the accommodations that they need because there's no way to ask for it. Right. Yeah. The advantage of working from home is you are in control of your environment and your setup and all of that. So, okay. So that makes sense. We talked about leaders and sort of this top down. What about maybe more laterally? What can we do as peers or coworkers for somebody with an invisible disability? I think it's really just before we judge someone

based on their behavior, it's the same thing is like, hey, how's it going? I mean, it's starting relationships with people. It's being human. it's coming forth with empathy coming forth with compassion if you see someone that is struggling um perhaps they're struggling with you know a software or they've asked like hey do you got do you mind if we um if we you know lessen the speed of the ceiling fans it might be for an actual reason so I think so often in many work cultures, the normal response is like, oh, come on, we're hot if we lower the ceiling fan versus understanding again, if there's a reason for that. So asking and having an open dialogue with individuals, I think is one, you know, is

a one way that we should all be thinking about in all environments. I mean, I just feel like disclosure conversations should be treated with the same reverence and respect that's given to all confidential and sensitive conversations. So it's not necessarily if we're in an open space that you want to be yelling across the cube farm to be, you know, asking someone what their needs is, but it really goes back to getting people to undergo more training and receiving accommodation requests, but also knowing how to respond and adopt within those accommodations to create a very inclusive environment. Yeah, I feel like what keeps popping in my head is something that is an ongoing work

in progress for me is to not be so quick to judgment, to not be so quick to think you know what's happening or what's going on and practicing certainly more kindness. And like you said, meaningful connection and all of that. I also, the word curiosity popped into my head a couple times, asking questions, being curious as to why or what might be going on in somebody's life. I think it's such an opportunity for us as a community, like as a country, because we're so quick to a snap judgment or thinking we know what's going on or we have the right, you know, so all that kept popping into my mind. So I do want to talk a little bit more about disclosing. What are some considerations that somebody really should

think through before they disclose? That's the first question. And then any practical tips about how to effectively do that? Yeah. So again, I can't recommend for anyone to disclose. I disclosed, got fired, then chose to not disclose moving forward. What I did do is find allies in the company. Once I was employed, there was no container for me to go to HR and say, hey, there's a challenge. There was no, again, there was no instructions.

There was none of that. So what I did do is I start finding people who either I reported to or a colleague and disclose that way and just say like, Hey, listen, you know, I think, I think also, I don't know if I mentioned previously because it took so long to get an exact diagnosis of what it actually was that I broke within my brain, we'll say. I shattered my ear canals. Without a diagnosis, it also became really hard to explain why you needed accommodation. So often what I would do then is if we were going to, you know, I worked in media and advertising, so there was a lot of stimulation. If I knew we were going into a large presentation, I might look at my colleague next to me

and just say, hey, if they turn the lights out, I might need to just grab your arm. Is that OK? And once I was able to say that to people, people were like, oh my god, Griffin, what do you need? Grab my bicep. Absolutely, let me help you. I just feel like there are angels everywhere.

But it was that mutual, like I was hiding. They must have sensed something was weird that was going on back and forth. So it just makes it harder to build a, a culture of trust within each other and to know where, you know, to go forward. So as far as disclosing for me, it was finding allies that I felt that I could trust, that I could give a clear, specific ask to, right? I need to sit in the front seat of the cab. I need to make sure that the light above my workstation isn't blinking to put me into a seizure.

Hey, can you help me get that work order in with the building management to expedite the light bulb switching, right? Those types of things. And then again, because I didn't personally have that experience, I waited until my success was so in your face and, you know, I had data and proof and numbers that you wanted to help me accommodate because you couldn't lose a high value employee. And I, my wish is that no one else has to get to that level of success before they can ask for an accommodation. So I think also it's, I would go to your employee handbook and I would see what it says about disability in general. If your company is over

a hundred people, they most likely have written out and therefore you would fall under the regular disability language and copy they put into the employee handbook and then see how the company is handling it. And for anyone that's listening, I'm a tax break, okay? So you hiring me and making a couple of accommodations helps your numbers and you also get a tax break. And you also get additional resources and funding to train your HR and growth and learning and development professionals. So again, if you're under a hundred people,

not an expert in that area, I'm talking in the larger a hundred person plus companies, you having someone that has a disability in some sort is not, they're still hitting the goals and requirements. It is not a, it's basically, there's no issue that you need to worry about as far as that the job is still going to get done. It's just going to get done differently. Well, and you said something at the start of our conversation that I think is important to reiterate, we can assume that everybody wants to be productive and good at their job. Right. And so my thought is like, if you are, if you do create a safe environment and you are accommodating and somebody doesn't deliver or perform, that's a conversation that needs to be had as an employer to employee, no matter what, right?

Absolutely. And again, the employee never has to disclose. They never have to disclose. So they just have to understand for themselves what are almost the risk reward ratio of disclosing or not. And then, you know, that's where I would say, whether it's a support group therapy, working with a coach, finding the people that can help you go through that discernment and then deciding what to do from there. Well, and the flip side is turnover. So expensive hiring the wrong people for the, that's like a really expensive thing. And so I think sometimes businesses make the mistake of going, you know, it's too expensive to figure out how to accommodate. And it's like, no, it's more expensive to figure out how not to

losing good people and having turnover to me is far more costly than getting somebody a good monitor or a good desk chair or whatever it is they need to be productive at their job. Absolutely. And also, you know, this goes into civic duty, which I realize everybody has their own opinion about, but when you hire someone with a disability, you rise up the whole family and the network, because that means that person can become more self-supporting by bringing income into the household. It means that their caretakers are able to get consistent wages. It means that like the entire structure and dynamics of the financials of the family or the family unit get to change because you've hired someone with a disability. And when we think about the great resignation, I choose to call it the great reassignment. We're in a situation in which it's, we're looking for people

and there are many beautiful people right under your nose, but you have pre-employment assessments that then instantly exclude them. And when you start thinking about it differently, there are other ways to figure out if someone's the right fit, maybe like be human and meet them first before sticking an assessment right under their nose

just because they submitted a resume. Very well said. And I couldn't agree more. I think these decisions have ripple effect or repercussions that really make a big difference across the board. Jill, I could keep having this conversation all day, but I want to give people an opportunity to find you and follow you. So if you're listening, you can find Jill at her website, jillgriffincoaching.com, on Instagram at jillgriffinofficial, and definitely check out the Career Refresh podcast.

We put all of that in show notes. Jill, thank you so much for your time today, for the conversation, and most importantly, for the great and incredibly important work that you're doing. Thank you. I really appreciate you having me here. All right.

One of my favorite quotes says, be the change you wish to see in the world. So let's be thoughtful, kind, and inclusive. Let's stand for everyone getting to live their truth. Let's love and support one another, not in spite of, but because of all of our differences, because that is woman's work.