This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 132 / 4 Steps To Setting Boundaries with Amy Worthy

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Lets face it, we can ALL still get better at creating and communicating BOUNDARIES. I mean, I train on this topic on occasion, I covered it briefly in my book, and I STILL find myself, on the regular, in situations where I didn’t hold to a boundary or didn’t communicate it in a way I feel good about, or in some cases, didn’t communicate my boundary at all… which leaves me feeling frustrated, resentful, disappointed, and exhausted. I’ve asked Amy Worthy, High Performance Business Coach and Psychotherapist with 20 years of experience working with mindset, high performance and habit building, to join us today to cover this very important topic that we’ve covered before (Episode 72 if you’re looking for more on boundaries).  If you say no in a kind, responsible, or professional way, and someone gets upset, that doesn’t mean you should have said yes. You are not responsible for other people’s reactions, you can only be responsible for YOUR choices. And if you say yes, even when you meant maybe or I’d rather not, then you need to own the resentment and frustration you feel and use it to fuel your next no, or not yet, or yes but with these expectations. Yes and no are powerful words with extreme clarity. We should probably be using them with more power and more clarity. To learn more about Amy and her work go to: www.nextlevelwealthcoach.com You can follow her on IG @amynworthy   To access her free resource go to: https://nextlevelwealthcoach.activehosted.com/f/10 To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com.

Hey friends, I wanted to share the incredible news that This Is Woman's Work is now among the top 2% of all podcasts in any category across the world. So thank you for listening and for sharing. Let's keep redefining woman's work together. And I definitely think we should go to Italy to celebrate, right? Being a guest on a podcast is not as easy as it may look. You not only need to have an area of expertise, credibility, and a great deal of experience with the topic at hand, you also need to be an engaging speaker. You need to make clear, concise points about something you could literally talk about

for days so that it fits into 30 minutes or less, at least on this show. You need to connect with the host and their listeners. You need to be on at the time of recording, no matter how your day is going before it. Being a host of a podcast isn't all that easy either. Finding these amazing guests, thinking about the topics your listeners most want to hear, prepping, managing the flow of the conversation while keeping an eye on the clock, asking questions you think your listeners will want to know, not to mention the time that's spent by my team editing and producing about 60 episodes in a year. Side note, if you have suggestions of topics or guests,

please let us know. We welcome those recommendations. So it can be challenging after over 130 episodes to think of new topics and even more challenging to find the right guests to cover them. And sometimes we fall into the trap of thinking that every episode needs to cover something new. When in reality, there are some topics we could cover multiple times, and it would still be super engaging and impactful.

And there are a few topics that we could cover monthly, frankly, weekly, and we'd still have something to learn. Today, on this episode of This is Woman's Work, we're going to cover one of those topics because let's face it, we can all still get better at creating and communicating boundaries. I mean, I train on this topic on occasion. I cover it briefly in my book and I still find myself on the regular in situations where I didn't hold to a boundary or I didn't communicate it in a way I feel good about, or in some cases I didn't communicate my boundary at all, which leaves me feeling frustrated, resentful, disappointed, and fucking exhausted. You'd think I'd know better by now, but it seems there are still old patterns that I default to. And in the area of boundaries,

I bet you do too. Because I believe it's still an opportunity for all of us, I've asked Amy Worthy, high performance business coach and psychotherapist with 20 years experience working with mindset, high performance, and habit building to join us today to cover this very important topic that we have covered before. Amy is also a wife, mother, and business owner, which frankly makes her more of an expert in juggling many balls and probably dropping a few too, leading to an increased need for boundary setting. Okay, Amy, let's talk boundaries. Thank you so much for being here. I want to start by

the word boundaries. I feel like it's become, you know, my topic is confidence and I feel like it's similar. It's this word we throw around a lot. It's become really popular. It's sort of a catchphrase nowadays. What are boundaries really? What are you talking about when you talk about boundaries? That is such a good question. We throw around that word a lot, don't we? And it's funny how often, sometimes I'll actually sort of test people, not in a kind way, but so what is a boundary? What does that mean to you? And it can be really hard to name and define. So I'll give you at least a couple of examples. First, I am going to quote the great Brene Brown,

who has the most simple definition of boundaries ever. And that is simply what is OK and what is not OK. All right. Well, we can go with that. Right. I think about the clear lines and spaces, the clear lines and spaces that we define. And then relationally, as a therapist and as a coach, right, I'm thinking about relationships a lot. Relationally, I think about the space in between me and you. There is always space in between, and that's where boundaries are. So those are just a few ways to look at it. I like all of those ways. I'd love to talk about some examples specifically on the relationship side.

I like this definition, the space and the acknowledgement that there should and will always be space in between any relationships. Give some examples for those of us who might be having a hard time contextualizing that. Yeah. I love, I love to talk about relationships. So yeah, we'll take that one. Right. So relationships require space. They require space. Where I end and you begin is very important to acknowledge in a relationship. So I think about it as, and your listeners can't really see this, but there's two circles, right? There's two circles that are separate. We don't want them too far apart, but we don't want them on top of each other.

We want them connected. And that relationship is about being connected, but not becoming enmeshed and not becoming too distant. So boundaries are what allow us to do that in relationship, whether that's with your partner, whether that's with your, somebody you supervise, a business colleague, it doesn't matter. Every relationship needs boundaries and the boundaries are going to look different depending on the relationship. And it's up to you to define those for yourself. So figuring out where is that space in between, feeling into that, and knowing that that's healthy. You know, I think especially in our marriages and our partnership, our romantic

relationships, we can get caught up in not knowing if boundaries are okay in certain ways, right? Thinking that we're supposed to do certain things, and that's not necessarily true. So I always ask people to be really thoughtful about that. You know, really check in with yourself. Okay. So Amy, what I'm hearing when you say that as two individuals coming together and maybe creating, you know, connection, common goals, a life together, but at the same time, still individuals. I love that so much because this idea of two people becoming one makes me want to vomit. It literally, okay. Yeah, agreed. There is a Rupi Kaur, and I don't even know if I'm saying her name right, quote, that I have hanging in our bedroom with Jay and I, and it says, I do not want to have you to fill the empty parts of me. I want to be full on my own. I want to be so complete. I could light a whole

city. And then I want to have you because the two of us combined could set it on fire. And that I know is, is literally hangs by our bed because it's the reminder of we don't complete each other. We are full, complete individuals on our own. And together we set things on fire. Love that. That is beautiful. That is beautiful. And of course I wholeheartedly agree. And you know, it's, I've, I've been in lots of long-term relationships and in a previous marriage and in, in the marriage that I am, I am in now that is absolutely the case, but it's the first time I've been in lots of long-term relationships and a previous marriage and in the marriage that I am, I am in now that is absolutely the case, but it's the first time I've ever had that where I felt like there were these two complete whole people coming together and just encouraging and challenging each other, but not becoming each other, right?

Not losing yourself in this other person. And we're, you know, we're talking about romantic relationships with that. That can happen in friendship. That can happen in any other kind of family relationship. It can happen in your business, right? Absolutely. I've personally experienced that in a working relationship. And that's often one of the areas I have a hard time creating, keeping, communicating boundaries is in, in work. So why do we, myself included, struggle so much with setting healthy boundaries? What's, you know, maybe the top issue that you see in setting them? Yeah. Setting boundaries is incredibly difficult for us. I would say, especially women, I'm going,

I'm going to say that because women are socialized to, taught to, take care of, right? To show up and do all the things and do them all well, because that's our job. You know, so women who are business owners, who are married or not married, it doesn't matter, but in partnership in some way that have children, we have all these different roles we're juggling. And somehow it's on us to figure out how to do it all and to do it all perfectly. Really, that's the expectation that society and that this culture has given us that we're always, that I think is shifting some, which is good. So I'll speak to women in particular about setting boundaries. The number one issue I see with women setting boundaries is not knowing how to set them because what is a boundary really? It's, it's no, it's yes. It's, I'll do this or I can't. We know how the biggest issue is tolerating the feelings that come up

when we set that boundary. That's what keeps us from avoiding setting boundaries. Number one reason. That jives completely with my experience. I always, I didn't know you have something around this. I always think of boundaries as a three-step process first deciding or knowing what they are, then communicating, then the dealing with the outcomes, consequences, good, bad, or indifferent that come once you've communicated them. So, um, but yeah, we all get really nervous about that last part. You've come up with four main pillars of boundaries. Can you tell us about those? Sure. Yes.

So the four pillars. So I think about this as the foundation for setting boundaries. And the first one is self-worth. So how do you feel about yourself? Do you feel like you're worth it? Do you not feel like you're worth it? And this is really a self-worth, self-esteem issue. Do I deserve to be able to set boundaries?

And you have to really sit with that and feel that for yourself. So that's step one of that pillar of those four pillars is self-worth. And then the second one is self-knowledge like you're talking about, right? Do I even know what I want? And I find it's easier to help people figure out

what they don't want oftentimes first, and then that can lead to what you want. But you have to get clear about that. It's pretty hard to set boundaries around something that you don't have enough information around or you don't even know what you want, right? And then the third pillar is self-responsibility. This is a big one because, look, most of us have some level of responsibility in what's happening. So you have to ask yourself, okay, in this situation, what is mine to own? What is my part? And now I will say

in my experience, the number one part we play is that we have not communicated the boundary. We have somehow expected someone to automatically know what we want. And then we get resentful and disappointed and hurt when they don't do that thing. So we have to figure out, have I shown up in the way I need to? Have I named the boundary? What is my responsibility in this? Why is it not happening? What do I have to do with it? And then the last step, of course, like you said, is communication. You got to communicate it. You got to verbalize it. You got to take some kind of action. So self-worth, self-knowledge, self-responsibility, communicate. Okay.

Let's talk a little bit about the self-awareness piece, because I think as women, a lot of times we have been socialized or taught, like you said, to be pleasing to others, to be helpful, to be nurturing, to be others focused. I think that's beautiful. I love that, but I think it's been taken to an extreme. And all of that to say, I agree with you. We tend to know what we don't want more than what we do. But even then, I think sometimes when our mind or our body or something tells us that we don't want something, we even make that wrong. Like what's wrong with me that I don't want to do that? Or am I defective because I'm not interested in X, Y, and Z,

or because I can't handle all of the things. So any insights into clues or ways that we know when something is not meant for us or we're not meant for something? That was a really good question. I'm thinking about something you said about even just having a feeling come up, right? Just having a feeling come up. Maybe that icky feeling, you know, that like, Ooh, that you feel inside yourself, learning to pay attention to the feelings that come up in your body is huge to me because we're going to have that come up

before oftentimes before a piece of thought, right? And we're going to be able to identify something doesn't feel right. And so our tendency, I think often as women is to try to dismiss that, but pay attention to it. You don't have to know why you don't have to know exactly what that feeling is saying, because I say this to people all the time. Feelings are just information. They're not right or wrong. They're not true or untrue. They're not facts. They're information for you to pay attention to. So that's your cue. When you have that, that feeling in your body that, you know, kind of weird feeling coming up, slow down and pay attention and just notice that something feels off and that that is valid. And that's that putting the space in between. Right? Yeah. I love that line.

Our feelings are just information. And then it begs the question, what is this feeling telling me? Yes. And there are some that we should immediately trust. Like I think of Dark Alleys or I just watched the Boston Strangler movie and she walks into this room and you could see everything in her body is like, I shouldn't be here. And she makes up some excuse and just runs out.

And I'm like, yes, those are the feelings we just freaking listen to. Like, I don't care whose feelings get hurt. I don't care. Like if everything in your being is saying, get the fuck out of here or not this person or whatever, forget politeness, get out. Okay. So that's that fight, flight, or freeze response, right? Where, you know, we forget that we are actually animals, you know, we're, we're humans, but we're animals, right? So, you know, that feeling that, that everybody's had this for the hair on the back of your neck raises,

that's an animal feeling, right? That's a, that's the core part of us having this, something is happening that is scary. And I need to, I'm either going to have to run or I'm going to have to fight. Yeah. A lot of times we're going to need to run. Yeah, that's right. On the flip side, I often have feelings. I'm a huge introvert. And so for example, people invite me to go out or go to this event or, you know, whatever. And my automatic initial feeling is, Oh God, no, like don't want to do that. But I've experienced enough now that it's like, okay, this feeling is telling me, you know, my natural instinct is to stay in, but thinking more about who it is, what it is, how does it fit in with everything that else that's going on? Because eight times out of 10,

when I get myself to the right place with the right people for the right reasons, I'm like, so freaking glad I did it. And I feel so all of that to say our feelings matter, but at the same time, it's just information. I love to treat them as fact just because I don't feel like going to this party doesn't mean I shouldn't go to this party. Right. When we, when we really get in trouble, when we start, and I see this happen a lot, we start to, to be, um, to place too much importance and meaning on feelings instead of it. Seeing them as just information that we need to pay attention to. Right. Of course, I'm anxious about going to this thing because I get a little anxious and I like to stay in and let me zoom out. And I mean, I say that to people like just

zoom out. Right. You can't take a situation out of its context, zoom out, take a look at it and go, okay, I've had this feeling before. What has it meant before? What has it translated to? I know that when I tend to push myself to go to certain things, I feel better and I feel glad I did. Okay. So in that case, like you're saying that feeling is just information that says I am a natural introvert who would rather stay in also knowing that may not be the best thing for me. I love that. My coach often says it's okay to have your feelings, but your feelings shouldn't have you. And I always think that's a good one. Okay. I want to talk quite a bit about the communicating part, because that's where I think all the nervousness and angst

around what people's reactions are going to be and all of that. So any tips or steps that we can take to communicate our boundaries in a healthy, productive, responsible way? Yes, absolutely. So the first thing that you really want to get clear about, and this kind of goes back to the self-knowledge, but you want to get clear about why you're setting the boundary. If you can, if you can tap into that feeling of the why, why is this boundary important? How will my life change even in a small way if I set this boundary? So getting in touch with that why and that feeling can give us a little bit more confidence in naming it, right? And then it's like as just as you teach people about boundaries, right? You have to get clear about what you want it to be.

So you're creating it internally first and then you're naming it. And when I say name it, our tendency when we're, especially if we're not really, we haven't done intentional work around boundaries and we have avoided them as we have often been socialized to do,

we're going to come out swinging. So we want to be mindful about that. It's kind of like the pendulum, right? The pendulum sometimes swings way the other direction before it settles in somewhere in the middle. So just being mindful about that, right? You don't have to be defensive. You don't have to over-explain. You just get to say the thing and say it simply. This is what I need. Now, this is what, this is what I'm experiencing. Here is what I need around that. Okay. And then period end story. And also we often, I think we come in with all these stories and the, I call them the stories we make up, but the, the fears of how somebody is going to respond 90% of the time, that's not what happens, you know? So we want to name it with as much confidence as we can, because we know why we're

naming it. Right. And then, um, you know, you gauge the response. Of course, some people may listen. Some people may not have a pleasant response, especially if you have had a relationship with someone that has had very few boundaries and all of a sudden you're practicing your boundaries and you're coming in and you're naming them and you're having an expectation that people respect those. So don't be surprised if you get some kind of reaction to that, that doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. It means that you're changing the rules and they're having an experience of that. Right. So kind of, I think too, just understanding that we can't predict necessarily how people will respond. Most of the time we're wrong about how they'll respond because we're doing that fear based thing, but there is the possibility that they won't respond like, oh, I'm so excited.

You're setting this boundary with me. This is great. I'm so proud of you. Okay. They may not. And that's okay too. You still get to have those boundaries. And then another question people do ask me a lot, and it may be a value to talk about is, well, what do you do when people don't respect your boundaries? Let's say you have named them. So this is sort of the last part of that phase of setting boundaries is, okay, I've let boundaries go by the wayside for a while. And now you're trying to establish or reestablish. What do you do if they're not being respected or you don't feel heard or listened to assuming you have communicated in a healthy, responsible, and productive way? Because as you said, and I'm so guilty of this is I'm, I feel like I'm a professional pendulum swinger. Like my thing is I'll come in real hot.

Like, and then I have to circle back and be like, okay, sorry. You know, let's have a do over on that, but assuming we communicate it in a healthy and productive way and we're holding to it and it's still not being respected, then, then what? That is, yeah, exactly. Then what, that is such a big question. And I understand that question very well. Um, I heard someone one time and I honestly don't remember who it was, but the way they described, um, explicitly naming your boundaries to people is kind of a green light, yellow light, red light process, right? So the first time you say it, you're going to say it with the assumption that they're going to hear it and that they're going

to respond to it well. And then you're going to say it kindly and you're going to make the request and you're going to go, okay, so I've set the boundary. Then let's say they cross the boundary. Well, then you're coming in and you're being even more direct. You're being even more clear. And you're saying, no, really, this is my boundary. I need you to respect it. Well, then let's say they cross it again. Well, then we're getting into this big red flashing light of this is danger zone. If this person's repeatedly crossing a boundary. And again, Nicole, let's be clear. These are boundaries that are set in healthy ways, communicated in healthy ways and are reasonable.

And we could also have a whole podcast about people who want to set boundaries about things that are not reasonable to ask for. So if you know that it's a reasonable thing and they repeatedly cross that, then you're moving into the zone of naming consequences. So this is my boundary. Here's what will happen if you cross it again.

Here's the key though. If you say that you better mean it, you have to follow through. It's so true in life and in parenting. Empty threats are the, like, in my opinion, one of the worst things we can do anyway, I keep going. It's this permission actually to continue to cross the boundary because you've just told the person through your actions or your words or whatever, you've just told them it's okay. Yeah. So that is, that is something that you have to really ask yourself because that's what I would tell someone to do that. There needs to be a consequence. The consequence might be this relationship won't work for me if you don't respect this boundary. But again, if you're saying that you need to mean

it. How important do you think it is to own in your communication or be responsible for the part you've played and maybe letting boundaries slip or get messy or, you know, like, especially if it's one of these relationships where you're trying to reestablish or create new boundaries that didn't exist before. Is that an important, helpful, not helpful? Oh, you're reading my mind. That's extremely important. I mean, it's one of my four pillars, self-responsibility. So you are, you're hitting it right there. It explicitly naming the part that you've played, especially if you're interested in preserving the relationship and making a repair is super important. So what often happens for me, right. Is because again, number one thing is I

haven't actually communicated it. So I might say in that situation, I might say, listen, I know, and I want to take responsibility for the fact that I have not explicitly named this. And so my part in this is I didn't name it. And then I got resentful and then I came out swinging and I, that's, that is my part. And I apologize for that. And now I just want to be clear with you so that we can have the kind of healthy relationship we want to have. I want to be clear with you about what I need. There's a lot of talk about, you know, with boundaries that no is a full sentence or a complete answer. And I agree that it is. And in some situations, that's all you need to say, right? Yeah. I always think no is a complete answer, but communication helps create win-wins. What are your thoughts about just saying no versus, and then you'd said earlier about

over-explaining or too many words. Where is maybe that fine line between no versus word vomit and, you know, saying far too much. That's right. That's right. That is a really good point. I, I do have some, I will be honest when people say no is a complete sentence. I do. I agree. And I have some reaction come up to that because I am always thinking in my 20 years of doing this work, I'm always thinking, yeah, but what is the context? What is the relationship? No is a

complete sentence for certain people in certain situations and not for others. So when we're talking about setting a boundary and communicating about it, if this is a relationship that has any level of, it's an ongoing relationship, there's some degree of intimacy there, whether emotional, physical, or whatever, I'm probably not going to go now and then just walk away. Now, when that telemarketer calls and I accidentally pick up the phone because I'm waiting on a call from someone else and they say, I need, I want to sell you this thing. You don't need my boundary is no hang up. Great example. And it's a complete, it's a complete sentence, right? Yeah.

But if it's my, you know, if it's my wife or it's my best friend or it's my business partner, it's going to look different. So it's going to be no. And here's why, because I want the relationship. I want to preserve the relationship. I want, and I want to be understood. I want them to, you know, if possible, I want them to get me and I want to get them. Yeah. Well said. Okay. I can't believe we're approaching time. Uh, any additional or quick tips or anything that can help make setting

boundaries a little easier? My favorite tip, especially if you have anxiety about setting boundaries, if you feel like you haven't been able to do it very well in the past, my favorite tip is the putting space in between the yes or the no. So when, when someone asks you to do something or, you know, ask, ask you to ask anything of you. A wonderful thing to do is to put space in between and ways you can do that. You can say, Oh, okay, well, let me think about that. And I'll get back to you. You can say, why don't you put that in an email to me? I don't want to forget. And I want to make sure if I say yes to this, that I, that I can really do it. Right. So you're, you're, you want to find ways to put space in between the yes or the no, so

that you can really actually sit with that and consider that and think about how you want to respond. Our, our tendency is to feel pressured. We pressure ourselves. The world pressures us to say something right away. And I want to say, stop that. Put space in between. That's where, that is where you will be able to make better, healthier choices for yourself around boundaries.

So important. If you think about the self-awareness responsibility and communication, you know, for us to all do that instantaneously, it is pretty unreasonable, right? If somebody makes a request or, or we're like to, to just respond in the moment, we haven't really checked in with our feelings. We haven't considered all the other things we might have going on. We haven't figured out how we want to communicate it in most cases. So I love that. Just giving yourself the time to consider all those things. Yeah. Great, great tip. You have permission for that, right? And I think most people tend towards being yes people or no people. I am one of those, maybe we're more rare. I'm not sure. I'm kind of an initially no person.

I think it's because I am such an extreme introvert. I didn't think it was a no to things. Anything social or new people, my default is no is no. Yeah. If it falls in the, like helping impact space, I tend to default. Yes. And, um, and that sounds good, but sometimes I put myself in situations where I'm like, that, that should have been a no, that was a no. Right. If you find yourself asking that question, why did I say yes to that? Oh my God, what was I thinking? Glennon Doyle, another person I like to read and listen to, you know, she asked herself the question and I love this of I don't want to think about what my future, what I want my future self, my future ideal self would say to this. What is my right now self feel about this? Right. And then pay attention to that.

Yeah. I love that. Amy, thank you so much. This is something we could literally talk about for days and do every single month on the show. So a really great tips and good insights. If you're listening and you want to connect with Amy, her website is nextlevelwealthcoach.com. You can find her on Instagram and she's also giving a freebie to all of our listeners, five steps to setting boundaries. It's a tip sheet, which we will put in show notes. And if you are in my community, we'll send you via our email as well.

Amy, thank you so much for your time and your expertise. This was a great and too fast conversation. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. All right. Let me close out by saying that you can say no without being a dick. Hashtag don't be a Richard. And if you say no in a kind, responsible or professional way, and someone gets upset, that doesn't mean you should have said yes. You are not responsible for other people's reactions. You can only be responsible for your choices. And if you say yes, even when you meant maybe,

or I'd rather not, then you need to own the resentment and frustration you feel and use it to fuel your next no, or not yet, or yes, but with these expectations. Yes and no are powerful words with extreme clarity. We should probably be using them with a little more power and a little more clarity. Know your self-worth, have self-knowledge, be responsible for yourself and communicate. All of that is definitely woman's work.