This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 138 / Conflict & Tension with Hesha Abrams

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

How can we BOTH resolve conflict AND defuse tension? That’s the million dollar question we’re addressing on this episode. And since I don’t have the million dollar answer, I’m joined by Hesha Abrams, internationally acclaimed master attorney mediator, who has the unique talent of being able to manage big egos and strong personalities, and a keen ability to create synergy amongst the most diverse personality types, driving them toward agreement.  Holy shit, now THAT’s a superpower. Hesha has resolved thousands of cases, both large (we’re talking billions in settlements) and small, in every conceivable area, during her career, including mediating the fight over the secret recipe for Pepsi. She developed Holding the Calm, an insightful, practical, and easy to use tool kit, forged in the trenches of resolving human conflict, that identifies the secrets to know how to approach situations to prevent explosions, disarm conflicts, settle cases, and reduce drama. And she’s going to share some of those secrets. Here’s what I know… when a pink spotted elephant walks in the room, you need to notice it. If it starts breathing down your neck, you need to do something about it. Because if you don’t, it’s going to sit on you and it’s MUCH harder to resolve conflict when you can’t breathe. Not letting pink spotted elephants knock the wind out of you? Well that’s just woman’s work. To learn more about Hesha you can visit her website at HeshaAbramsMediation.com or HoldingtheCalm.com To learn more about what we are up to outside of this podcast, visit us at NicoleKalil.com.

This is Woman's Work is moving on up the podcast ranks. We are now in the top one and a half percent of all podcasts globally. Thanks to you, our listeners. And there is so much in, and even some individual coaching options, make sure you join our community at NicoleKalil.com so you don't miss out on any of it. Let's keep moving on up together. I am Nicole Kalil and I have a real question. Are there people out there who actually love conflict? It would appear that some people, at the very least some people online, seem to seek it out. You know what I'm talking about. It's the person who makes the comment where you know they're just looking to get into it with someone. It's the person who antagonizes, pushes buttons, and can't help but poke the bear

in any given situation. I think we all know or know of someone like that. I'm always curious about them. Is it attention-seeking behavior? Is it healthy? Is it sad? I wonder about this because in my experience, the vast majority of the women I talk to have a general inclination to avoid conflict, in some cases at all costs, which lead us to become carriers of conflict. We're literally walking around carrying it. It's living inside of our minds and our bodies, and it's heavy. And then at some point, it gets too heavy, so heavy that we break in some way. That can look like rage, depression, extreme choices, isolation, drama, blaming, and a whole host of things that don't actually serve us.

Some people may seek it out. Many avoid it. But the simple truth, as I see it, is we don't know how to be in conflict, even though it's an inevitable experience. I'm generally a fairly direct communicator and have been known to stir the pot on occasion, but I also avoid conflict, especially in work relationships and with the people I'm closest to. My theory is that we've never been taught how to effectively manage or even relate to conflict.

Like, where was that class in high school? And for many of us, it's the tension that follows the conflict that worries us and bothers us the most. We're so concerned about other people's reactions and responses that we avoid addressing the pink-spotted elephant in the room until it climbs onto our lap and squashes us. Yes, considering other people's feelings and experiences is part of empathy, and I consider empathy a superpower. But as is the case with many strengths, when taken too far, it can become our kryptonite. So what's the secret to resolving conflict in a healthy way? How can we both resolve conflict and diffuse the tension that comes along with it? That's the million-dollar question we're addressing today. internationally acclaimed master attorney mediator who has the unique talent of being able to manage big egos and strong personalities and a keen ability to create synergy amongst the most diverse personality types, driving them toward agreement. Holy shit, friends, now that's a superpower.

Hesha has resolved thousands of cases, both large, we're talking billions in settlements, and small, in every conceivable area during her career, including mediating the fight over the secret recipe for Pepsi. She developed Holding the Calm, an insightful, practical, and easy-to-use toolkit forged in the trenches of resolving human conflict that identifies the secret to know how to approach situations to prevent explosions, disarm conflicts, settle cases, and reduce drama. And she's here today to share some of those secrets with us. Hesha, thank you for being here to teach the course we really should have had in high school. My pleasure. And you are right. This should be taught in elementary school I agreed I was like junior high I just went with high school because it felt sort of middle of the road you know how we resolve conflict is how our mom and dad did or our grandparents or people that

we were around and most people don't handle it well so those are the models that's what we do we withdraw we cry we we yell, we scream. We're passive aggressive. We're aggressive aggressive. And that's, I like to joke that it's like we're cavemen and cavewomen shoving food in our mouths. And I want to say, here's a fork. Here's a spoon.

Here's a knife. Here's chopsticks. You know, there's better ways to do it. And they're not hard. They're easy. Great analogy. And oh my gosh, yes, it's cyclical and it's like a default, right? And then we just keep repeating it and repeating it without thinking

about it. So, okay. That was going to be my first question. I want to talk a little bit about how to handle conflict, but before we do, do you have any tips or thoughts about how we might prevent or stop conflict before it gets to that point? Before it descends on you. So again, let me give you an analogy. Everyone has dropped spaghetti sauce on the counter. You take a wet sponge, you wipe it up. It's no big deal.

You leave it overnight. You're scraping it off with a spatula. You leave it three or four months or three or four years, it's old and moldy and nasty. That, my friends, is conflict. And if you look at the title to my book, Holding the Calm, The Secret to Resolving Conflict and Diffusing Tension. And so that's why your question is actually so insightful. I didn't want such a long title for my book. It's kind of a mouthful. But 100% of down the pike. So why don't we handle it? Why don't we wipe up the spaghetti sauce when it's wet? Well, we don't know how. We're afraid. We're afraid we'll make it worse. We know the time, the effort, the energy, but it all comes down literally to, we don't know how. I know how.

I've had a laboratory for 30 plus years to do it. So I wanted to make it super simple and super easy. Just one little tiny thing, do this one little thing, and it's going to make life a little bit easier. And then you have confidence in yourself to say, look, no one really likes conflict. Very few, sociopaths, narcissists, very small percentage of people actually like conflict. In your introduction, you talked about how people poke the bear, but they do it online where it's anonymous or it's easy because I can punch you in the face and run away like a coward.

People aren't going to do it in person as much unless they're with a gang or a group. That's how bullies seem to work. But the more confidence you have in your ability to wipe that spaghetti sauce up when it's wet, the more you'll put your toe in the water a little further and a little deeper. So in your own family, with your own coworkers, with things that are important to you in your sphere of influence, you'll have a couple of techniques to do to say, can we talk about that? You know, I mean, one of the lovely things that I've taught in my family is the do over when you're in a good relationship or a decent relationship with people and you said or did something and you can see their face and you're thinking, oh God, oh God, oh God, backpedal, backpedal. What do I do? Where do I go? What do I say? And we flip out. If you just look at the person and say, can I have a do-over?

That didn't come out right. Nobody says no to you. Nobody. And the extra benefit you got is the other person feels seen and heard and valued. So now they're more receptive to what you really did want to say. Yeah. So that's the thought that jumped into my head is asking that question is an acknowledgement of what I just did or what I just said didn't go well, or it wasn't what I meant. And I think that to me, my experience is people want to be acknowledged and listened to and heard, and that's a good step to do it. So I want to talk tactics because I am sure, or maybe I'm assuming that words and tone and timing do matter.

You talked about timing. It sounds like the earlier, the better, right? What are some tactical tips or techniques to addressing tension as it happens so it doesn't become massive conflict? One of my favorite ones that's just easy, easy for everyone to do immediately today after you listen to this program is plural pronouns. When we get involved in a conflict, it's always I and you. And therapists are always very good about saying we should use I statements, right? We should talk about what I feel. Well, that's sometimes true.

But once it gets into conflict or tension that is now laboring and becoming conflict, all of a sudden, the I and you becomes Hatfields and McCoys. They become us versus them. And the neuroscience that, you know, neuroscience has now learned an awful lot in behavioral psychology about our brains and how we work. We are wired to see differences. That's a big piece where racism, sexism, homophobia, all that other isms come from is if you look like me, my brain says, friend, not foe. So it's calmer. I'm more relaxed. The filter that I see you through isn't agitated. So what happens with differences of any kind? Our brain gets a little agitated and a little charged. I can't control that in the world. It's too large, but I can make us feel

like we're part of the same tribe or the same clan simply by using plural pronouns. Something like, Nicole, how are we going to handle this? Instead of, Nicole, you seem really upset. Plural pronouns are your friend. How are we going to handle this? What are we going to do? Why do you think the boss has a concern about us? How are we going to take care of this problem? All of a sudden, and let's say that you do that when somebody is attacking and they're going right at you and you do we, and they say, ah, there's no we here. That's you. You screwed up. How are we going to handle that, Nicole? So even if you do it twice, it subtly puts something into someone else's brain that turns down and lowers that us versus them thing that makes me not think clearly. If you're my

enemy, I don't feel safe around you. I don't trust you. You don't have my back. You're not going to get what I do. You're not going to do what I tell you to do, or you're going to make me do what I don't want to do. So it's all that power and balance stuff. Simple plural pronouns is just one lovely, lovely, beautiful appetizer of this giant holding the calm dinner plate that you're going to have

or dinner service. I wonder, I'm thinking more personal relationship, like partnership, if there is maybe the combination of both. So if I'm annoyed with my husband about something, it's like, this bothers me. How can we resolve it? Let me give you an analogy for that one too, that I love. And I use it with my husband. I read somewhere that ice, ice dancing couples, ice skating and ice dancing couples, you know, think about how hard that is. They train 10 hours a day and you are reliant on the other person throwing you correctly or you landing correctly. And if you fall, you know, I easily could say, you don't have your ankle in the right place. And now we lost the Olympics or whatever. And I could go into blame easy. And they did studies and they said the only couples that made it and stayed as couples

were ones that when they fell, said we fell. Even if one clearly was the one who didn't have their arms the right way or the leg, whatever they did wrong, we fell. It's just something that in your relationship, you just decide that's how you're going to talk. We are a we. And if you don't really feel that way, maybe reevaluate what that relationship is or how close or how intimate you want to be with it. But if that's the discussion, have that discussion with your partner, tell them this little ice dancing story. And it's hard to do when the other person's screwed up. Gosh, darn it. I told you to do this and that you didn't do it. And it came out exactly the way it would have done. And now I have to pay the price for something dumb

you did. Now, every one of us is listening, has had that fight and you are a hundred percent correct and you are a hundred percent ineffective. So the goal you say to yourself is I want to be right or I want to be effective and have a little grace for when they screw up because guess what? The pendulum will turn, the wheel will turn, you will screw up. Then you create a vibe in your home of not having blame. One of the chapters in the book, I call it the blame, defend, justify death dance, because that's what happens. I blame, you defend, I justify, lather, rinse, repeat. We don't go anywhere. We don't get anything done. So that's my response to that. And the more you can just infuse your workplace, good leaders do this, good relationships do this. And let's make it hard. Let's say you have a

teenager who's not doing their homework. How do you do the we? You do it anyway. Facts don't make a difference. Logic doesn't make a difference. You're dealing with the amygdala and the neuroscience of the brain. You want to calm it down. And if you tell your teenager, you had to do your homework and you didn't do this and I'm disappointed in you, you're not going to get anywhere. You're going to get basic compliance. But if you say your grades really matter a lot to you, they matter a lot to me, They matter a lot to me. How are we going to be more supportive? How can we make sure that this homework gets done

so that we don't have to deal with the teacher calling us and telling us we didn't get it done? How are we going to do that? Now, the kid's going to get confused. The kid's going to be- Which is a good place to get them. What's mom doing here? Mom attended a lecture, but I'm just telling you, it just calms that friend versus foe thing down that

every one of us has in our brains. Every single one of us. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I got full tingles through my body. I actually even teared up a little bit, which is what happens when I hear something that like, you don't just hear it, you feel it in your being. So thank you for that. The mic has been dropped and I don't know, there's an expression with something like you can solve a problem where you can be right, but you can't do both. And that's kind of what was going through my head while you were talking about that. And such a good reminder. There's a great sentence I say to myself all the time, because I get hot and bothered. I get angry. I don't get my own way. I'm tired. I'm cranky. I mean, I'm a normal person like everybody else.

I just have a longer wick because I have all these tools. And so literally, let's say I want to say something I know I shouldn't say. You know, you shouldn't say what you're saying. You know it, but you're angry, you're hot, you're tired, whatever. So what I say to myself in my head is, what is the outcome I hope to achieve? It pulls you up a little bit so that you have a feeling. It's my feeling. You can't argue with it. This is what I feel, but I can create a moat between the feeling and my expression of that feeling. And in that moat, in the longer and deeper and wider, you can make that moat around the castle, the more power you have, the more choices you have, the more you can decide

what it is you want to do. That, my friends, that's the power of holding the calm. So that leads directly to a question I had on my list, which is what is the goal when we feel tension or we have conflict? Is it win-win? Is it win-lose? Is it lose-lose? I think what are some tips to identify what is the goal? And what if you're in conflict with somebody who has a different goal so i might be going into it win-win and somebody else might be going into it win-lose i think this happens often in divorce there's a lot of big feelings and so some people will even go for the lose-lose just so the other person loses

what is the goal how do we figure that out? And how do we handle if we're in conflict with somebody with an entirely different goal? You got it. So the first thing is I like for all of us to really be honest, that even when we say win, win, it's not. I want to win. And if I'm nice to you and let you win a little bit too, then you'll do what I want. I have this theory that every interpersonal relationship, every personal interaction has to do with power, getting it, keeping it, taking it, stopping someone else from taking it from you, so it's all power. So if you go into a situation with a goal, I want to get my own way, and I want

you to do what I say. Okay. How am I going to achieve that goal? And you, you know, I yell, I scream. I use holding the calm techniques. I use win-win problem solving all the courses and negotiation that you took. You know, those are all just techniques to get your own way. So the number one thing that I do in holding the calm chapter one is speak into the ears that are hearing you. So that requires you to be quiet and diagnose. Now, other people would say, oh, you should listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We all know we should listen. But what do you do beyond listening? You're diagnosing. And to make it sound kind of cavalier and harsh, what bait are you putting on your hook?

You know, what bait are you putting in your hook? What bait are you putting in your cage? Are you using carrot or stick? What are you doing and to how to get it? Now, the more sophisticated you are, the more you can make it win-win. Or what if the stakes are not that high? You can make it win-win. But the stakes are really, really, really high. And the tension is really, really hot. Getting to a cold piece first, I call it creating small, winnable victories. Because why is abortion, gun control, immigration, those are the issues that freak everybody out. They're big, huge things. You don't solve them from a big, huge perspective. You create small, winnable victories, and you erode the outside of a dispute. So using these plural pronouns, getting rid of friend versus foe, us versus them kind of stuff. I have something in the technique called a wowed, give them a way out with dignity. I make a joke that everyone in the world listens to the same radio station, WIIFM, what's in it for me? So all of that starts with speaking to

the ears that are hearing you. So first I got to listen to you. What's important to you? And it may be something just to give a very good analogy. I want pizza for dinner. I like pizza. Nicole, what the heck is wrong with you? Everyone likes pizza. How could you not like pizza? Are you just like demented or something? What's wrong with you? And I never bothered to figure out that you're gluten intolerant. Interesting. How about ice cream? I like ice cream. Everyone likes ice cream. We're going to get ice cream. What is wrong with you that you don't like ice cream without finding out your lactose intolerant and your stomach will be all tied up in knots. It's so simple, but we don't do it because we don't like ice cream without finding out your lactose intolerant and your stomach will be all you know tied up in knots it's so simple but we don't do it because we don't want to take the power to do it but that's step number one and it goes beyond the goal issue because my goal might

change once i get that information your goal might change you may not know what your goal might change. You may not know what your goal is. And if I say to you, what's your goal? 90% of the time, it'll be wrong because people, they don't know how to think through their own goals. They have an emotionality, an emotional response to something. And then they blurt what they think will happen. And that's why, you know, people wear clothes that make them uncomfortable. They're in relationships that don't serve them. They have jobs they don't like. Why do we do that? Because we're status quo creatures.

Change is real hard and we don't tend to do it. So by listening to somebody and asking them questions, you're actually helping them filter through their own thought process. What do you think? What do I want? Now, all of a sudden, it's very interesting. Then you can have more conversations and discussions. And I'll tell our listeners, of course, that works if Nicole and I have a dispute and we're talking. Of course, that's going to work with us. But let's take the advanced course. Talk about your idiot brother-in-law at the Thanksgiving table. Talk about that horrible coworker that like steals credit for your assignments, you know, or is gossiping behind your back.

Talk about that awful boss that just dictates because he was a former Marine and he treats you like in the Marine, semper fi, you know, that kind of junk. It works all in there too, because you know, those people, they are the rough candy outside with the soft gooey center. Because if they act like that, they're not getting a lot of loving, a lot of respect, a lot of tender treatment. So they're hard and they're harsh. So you give them any tender treatment at all. It's very interesting. And there's times where it's not tender, especially when I say that to women, there's times where we have to stand strong, but how do we do that and not get rejected? Sometimes you can be rational and nice.

Sometimes you got to be tough and hard. How do you do that? And this holding the calm stuff is so good. I use it myself. When I'm wound, I say to myself, like a mantra, I'm holding the calm, I'm holding the calm, I'm holding the calm. And it creates that moat, that space between my feelings and how I choose to express those feelings. Okay. I have a few other questions that I just want to make sure to get to. How do you find a solution when a solution feels impossible? Diagnosing. Diagnosing is your friend. If a solution seems impossible, it just means you don't have information yet. So each chapter has a ton of sentence stems.

And you just use them. And what I tell people is it's overwhelming to do all of it at first. So take a post-it note and write down two or three of them and stick it on your phone, on your desk, or put it in a note, you know, in your phone so that when the time comes, you've got those two. Practice those till they're just natural and you just use them. Then you can take two more. And if you do that over a space of a month, you're going to get most of this stuff. It will just start to become natural and easy that, oh, in a hard situation, I can do that. So if I need to, a situation is impossible. That just means that you haven't figured out

the diffusing of the bomb yet. And there always is a solution, always. How do we find it? How do we implement it? Those are harder questions. But at least you do the diagnosis first. And by asking questions, all of a sudden you realize the other person is not really wanting what they're saying they're wanting. Or they're not resisting something the way you think they're resisting it because they want something else.

Data collection. It's number one. So let's say we don't do the best job of handling tension. And we basically let the spaghetti sauce sit there for months and months. And now there's stains or whatever. And we get to like real conflict. How do you handle when somebody is crying or yelling at you? Or they're like, or you can't even have the conversation.

Exactly right. So there's the neuroscience of the amygdala. So when the amygdala, which is the reptilian brain gets triggered and activated, it's activated for 20 minutes. And that's called a refractory state. When someone is in a refractory state, their prefrontal cortex, the front part of the brain shuts down, it goes dark. So they cannot listen to you. They cannot hear you. They cannot receive data information. What's the worst thing you can say to someone? Calm down. Because what you're doing is taking power away from them. So the first thing you have

to do is you're dealing with the reptilian brain. What is the antidote to the reptilian brain? Validation. It's the WD-40 of the universe. It is the elixir of the universe. It is magic beans. It is all of that. So you validate whatever you can about what's going on for that person because it calms them down.

But let's do the advanced class. Let's say you can't say, I see why you're so upset, but that makes sense to me. I would be upset too. Let's say you can't say that because you just you're so upset, or that makes sense to me. I would be upset too. Let's say you can't say that because you just think they're wrong and stupid and ridiculous and whatever. You name the emotion.

It's one of the techniques in the book I have called VUCS, V-U-C-S, validate, understand, clarify, summarize. So the validating part is just naming the emotion. You seem so upset. Wow, that really made you angry. And let's say someone goes, I'm not angry. I'm frustrated. Okay, you seem really frustrated. Say, I still got the information. It's not about being right. It's about diagnosing and getting the information. Once you validate somebody, they're going to talk to you because you're not arguing with them. So then they're going to say their piece and whatever they do, got a whole thing in there

about reflective feedback, where you repeat the last three or four words somebody said, and then they'll go, that's right. That's right. And it calms it down. And after 20 minutes, this refractory state calms down. Now you can start having some conversations. It's really, it's mad. It works with teenagers to bosses. I mean, I've, I've worked with giant CEOs of major, major, major corporations, and then had my own teenagers and now have grandchildren. And I, I use them on that. My grandchildren think I'm wonderful and their friends go, I wish I had a Nana like you because you listen to me.

Half the time, that's all they want is to be seen and heard and listened to. Are there times, probably not with children or grandchildren, some relationships, but are there times where you just walk away? Times where it's just not worth the energy, it's not worth being in conflict. I don't know. Like I have a don't work with jerks boundary. I got an email from somebody raging and I just was like, we're just going to agree

to disagree. And I will take you off my list. Like no big deal. I guess my question is, is that a viable choice? and how do we know? Yes. Sometimes people are just too toxic to be with, or your skillset or your emotional level or your vulnerability or your energy level aren't enough to handle them. Fine. You can be self-protective and say, I choose not to engage with you. There's a lot of power with that. I choose not to engage with you. And I wish lot of power with that. I choose not to engage with you. And I wish you well. You know, there's a famous story of Buddha

that some guy came and started screaming and yelling at him. And Buddha just listened and said, my dear friend, I cannot accept your gift of anger. So I have to return it to you. Powerful. Isn't that good? So, but what I would say to people is test your limit because if you're tolerant for conflict is a level two you really should engage a little more so you can get to

level three or four you know a healthy ability is to be able to handle conflict up to let's say level five you know i'm a professional and i'm an expert in this i can handle conflict up to let's say level five. I'm a professional and I'm an expert in this. I can handle conflict up to level 10, but just for normal everyday living, you should be able to handle it up to five. So you wanna develop your skills and your capacity to like if someone wrote you a nasty email, you can say, I don't have the time, energy or desire to deal with you.

That is completely respectable. Or you could say, okay, I'm taking an advanced course here. I'm going to practice on this guinea pig. This guy has allowed himself to be a lab rat in my laboratory. Let me give it a try. And then you experiment on something in reply. And if it doesn't work, I'm not going to go further with you. Or you may turn somebody.

And then what does that do to your confidence and your power? So you have to gauge it on risk reward ratio. I like that. The idea of leveraging some of these opportunities as guinea pigs or as trials or tests for when it actually matters. Great advice. I wish we had more time, but Hesha, thank you so much. If you're listening and you want to get your hands on her book, Holding the Calm, please do that. You can also go to her website, holdingthecalm.com, and you can find Hesha Abrams on LinkedIn and Facebook, and we'll put all that stuff in show notes. Thank you. And if I could ask, if you do buy it on Amazon, if you wouldn't mind leaving an Amazon review, because it helps the search engine optimization stuff. Yes, we are all about reviews here because it is so, so,

so important. I think a lot of times people don't understand how impactful and what a difference it makes to the author and the opportunities and all the things that come with it. So absolutely buy, read, review, and thank you for this very important conversation. My pleasure. Okay, friends, I've said this before, but a question I often ask myself is, is this the hill I want to die on? It's my way of asking, does this really matter? Or can I let it go and move on? Like actually let it go and move on. Another question that's become a bigger one for me in recent years is, is this someone I'm willing to go to battle on that hill with? It's my way of asking, does this relationship with this person really matter to me? Do I care enough? Do they

care enough to go through the conflict? And are we both looking for a positive outcome? Here's what I do know. When a pink spotted elephant walks in the room, you need to notice it. If it starts breathing down your neck, you need to do something about it. Because if you don't, it's going to sit on you and it's much harder to resolve conflict when you can't breathe.

Not letting pink spotted elephants knock the wind out of you? Well, that's just woman's work.