This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 145 / How To Talk To Your Enemies with Alicia Dunams

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

I admire SO MUCH when I see people deal with difficult personalities, big egos, or people who’ve done major harm and they somehow manage to stay cool, calm, and collected. Being able to have a productive conversation with someone who makes your blood boil is a true superpower. Which is why I’ve invited Alicia Dunams, speaker, coach, certified mediator, peacemaker and author of the book, How to Talk to Your Enemies to the show. She shares specific words, phrases, and approaches to start dialogues off on the right foot toward mutual understanding and healing. Whether it’s expressing boundaries, handling political and moral differences, giving sincere apologies, responding to accusations of racism or sexism - Alicia provides the tools to have even the most bitter enemies experience compassion and catharsis. The skill of communicating effectively with people we disagree with is desperately needed. Rage, cursing, and walking away have their place, but listening, apologizing, empathy, curiosity, understanding, healing, and peacemaking are necessary in todays climate. Who better to lead the way than us? WOMEN have long understood the POWER and STRENGTH required to do any one of those things… listening isn’t the easy way out, ignoring is. Empathy isn’t weak, righteousness and revenge are.  The irony is all the things they’ve been calling soft skills are the hardest ones. It’s time to do woman’s work. To learn more about Alicia you can visit her website or follow her on IG @AliciaDunams. You can access the first chapter of her book for free by going to www.talktoyourenemies.com To join Nicole’s pod (to get all the inside scoops, free stuff, and the occasional rant), click here

There is so much good stuff in this episode that I'm popping in a little early to tell you to get ready to take some notes. Your enemy becomes your partner in creating a new vision, a new solution. And so I really invite people to lean in at the person that you want to avoid. That is your opportunity for personal growth. I am Nicole Kalil, host of the This Is Woman's Work podcast. And as your host, I spend a fair amount of time preparing for the conversations we have here. It's a goal of mine to ask good questions that I think you want to hear, as well as to start and end each episode with something that gets the wheels turning, provides a different perspective, or at the very least frames the conversation with my

guests in a way that sets them up well and creates great flow. Sometimes that's really easy for me because I've already spent a great deal of time thinking about the topic, have personal experience with it, or already have strong beliefs. Topics like confidence, time management, women in the workforce, leadership, and even mean girls. Those intros and exits almost write themselves. And I come to the recording with a list of questions so long that there's no possible way I can actually get to all of them. And there are some topics I'm very clear I know little about, and I have to do my research and be willing to ask what might be basic or even dumb questions because I'm new, a beginner, or at the starting point of my journey with it.

Most of the topics that fall in the health and wellness space would be examples here. But it's few and far between where we have a topic where I know right out of the gates that I am uniquely not well-suited for the conversation. Like we're about to talk about something that I know I've never been good at and have only made the slightest progress in in my own life. So I don't have a thoughtful intro for today's topic other than to tell you that this is a really hard one for me. And if our guest can make me even 1% better, then she's truly performed a mini miracle. Our topic today is talking to your enemies. The implication is that there's a healthy and productive way to do this. And I'm excited to

learn about that because I admire so much when I see people deal with difficult personalities, big egos, or people who've done some harm in some way, and they somehow manage to stay cool, calm, collected, and to lead a productive conversation. I think it's the most powerful display of maturity, grace, curiosity, care, empathy, and confidence. And I'm nowhere near where I want to be in mastering that. So rather than sharing my thoughts to open us up, I'm going to share our guests. Alicia Dunham's leadership keynote speaker, executive coach, certified mediator, and peacemaker says this, we live in a time of social and interpersonal conflict unprecedented since the upheavals of the 1960s and perhaps even since the Civil War.

Evolving social roles, astonishing political turmoil, and the rise of cancel culture, the necessity of difficult conversations leave people wondering what to say at the workplace, in social and civic groups, and around the family dinner table. Alicia has the solution and has written a book about it called How to Talk to Your Enemies. She shares not only specific words and phrases, but approaches to start dialogues off on the right foot towards mutual understanding and healing. Whether it's expressing boundaries, handling political and moral differences, giving sincere apologies,

responding to accusations of racism or sexism, Alicia provides the tools to have even the most bitter enemies experience compassion and catharsis. Alicia, thank you so much for being here. You definitely have your work cut out for you today with me on this one. Nicole, well, I just want to acknowledge you for your vulnerability in terms of that introduction and that this is an opportunity for growth for you. It's a big one. So we get to grow together in the next half an hour. I love that. Okay. So

I would imagine that writing a book or doing this work had to have started from some sort of personal experience or story, like doing work this important and this big didn't come out of nowhere. So what was it that had you focus on such a challenging yet imperative body of work? Well, thank you for that question. And I would say that I have been doing diversity, equity, inclusion, communication, and leadership training for the last decade. And I would say since the murder of George Floyd and the racial reckoning of 2020 that I have found that people are scared to speak up because they're scared of being shut down. And I see that as an opportunity for growth and to collectively come to the table and really have healing conversations. So I would say that's my

more superficial answer in terms of the work that I've been doing. If I'm going to be truly vulnerable, it's because I was the peacemaker in my family. My dad is from New Orleans, Louisiana, a family of 10, grew up poor. And his only really choice in life was to join the U.S. military. And he was stationed during the Vietnam era in London, England, where he met my mother, a white woman from a well-to-do family and actually born in Windsor and went to the same schools that the royal family goes to. So I grew up with two different races, two different genders, two different cultures, two different social economic backgrounds. And I felt my experience was that I was the peacemaker between my mom and dad,

who are still married to this day, and I acknowledge them for that feat. And it was definitely my childhood experience. And my brother is seven years older than me, so I know he had his experience because, you know, they met in the 60s, literally married in 1967, where my dad brought my mother back to New Orleans, Louisiana in 1968. Martin Luther King was just murdered. And my interracial marriage was illegal and absolutely looked down upon and beyond looking down upon. It was just dangerous to have his blonde wife in New Orleans, Louisiana during this time of the the Vietnam war and, and, and just the, you know, the, the, the, the, the challenges in the 1960s,

which we still are experiencing to this day in a different way. And, and so my brother had his own experience. I was seven years later. And, you know, so I basically, when he went off to college, I was, you know, in the house with my mom and dad and just being able to translate, translating conversations, being able to listen to something my mom would say and translate it to my dad and vice versa. That was like who I be. That's who I was. And that's who I am to this day. And so I feel

that, you know, even with the certifications and DEI and, you know, mediation work, I just feel I was really well-suited for this conversation, cross-cultural, cross-racial, you know, just the challenges that we find ourselves in today. And so that's the vulnerable answer. Well, and I appreciate you sharing that, A, because it's true in your experience. And also, you know, I can relate to it quite a bit. My dad is Mexican. My mom is from Germany. So, you know, interracial, but also different cultures, as you experienced. My sister is seven years younger than me, so we have our different experiences. And I just, I find it curious that this led you to be the peacemaker that you are and to be able to have these amazing, important conversations where it feels like it sort of

created the opposite in me and kudos to your parents for being together. My parents just got divorced in the last year after 50 years of marriage. So it's yeah. Anyway, I digress, but thank you for sharing that. And I want to kind of hone in on the title of your book. It was probably spend the bulk of our time on the, how to talk to part, but I want to focus first on the, your enemies part. How are you defining an enemy and why would anybody want to ever talk to their enemies? One of my good friends is a therapist and she had a, a lot of opinions about the title of my book. And actually it does bristle some feathers because there's one camp. Well, there's probably various camps, but one camp is like, why do I want to talk to my enemies when I just opened

myself up to being hurt and harmed? And then there's another camp that says, well, I don't want to really call them enemies. Maybe they're just foes or people I disagree with. They just didn't like the word enemy because it felt very strong. And, you know, my answer to that is we're treating each other like enemies. And whether it's your next door neighbor who has different political beliefs and the lawn signs to prove it, whether it's your coworker who you feel undermines you or, you know, rolls their eyes when you're in meetings at work or speaks over you, whether it's a family member who you continue to clash with, we are coming to tables to have conversations and leaving triggered, angry, you know, making people feel shameful, hurting people. So we are indeed

treating people like enemies. And really the title of the book comes from Desmond Tutu. And he has a quote that says, if you want peace, you don't talk to your friends, you talk to your enemies. And so I feel we have a really valuable opportunity here that we get to partner with our enemies, as Nelson Mandela speaks. Your enemy becomes your partner in creating a new vision, a new solution. And so I really invite people to lean in at the person that you want to avoid. The person that you walk across the street because you don't want to engage. The person that you cancel, the person that you, you know, haven't talked to for 15 years because of a, you know, a disagreement that you've had,

that is your opportunity for personal growth, development. Your next level of evolution is leaning in to those conversations. That's my contention. That could not be more powerful. And I got like that chill feeling when you said we are treating each other like we're enemies. And that is exactly right. I'll be honest. I thought you used the word because it's a strong reaction word. And

of course you're wanting to get people curious and engaged when selling a book, but that's way more powerful. The idea of whether or not we want to call this person our enemy, or we feel that way. The bottom line is we're treating each other that way. And therein lies that big problem. And, and I've already said that this is not my greatest strength. You know, my, my defaults tend to be rage cursing and cutting people out of my life, which is not very good for what you're talking about. It's created sort of an insular experience. I'm, I'm, I have a small tight group of people that share a lot of the same beliefs and ways of seeing things. Interior point, that doesn't create any sort of balance. That doesn't create any sort of different way to see it, different opportunity. Again, this is really powerful. Okay. So I want

to go to what might be the simplest or easiest or quickest thing that we could say or do to deescalate a situation or to change it from that sort of enemy space and create a space where we could actually have real dialogue. Well, I have a lot of strategies in the book and one that I would share here is being an active listener. And we hear about that a lot in any type of leadership training, emotional intelligence, the importance of empathy, the importance of listening. And I really personally believe that storytelling and listen to other people's stories is the anecdote to hate. It's the anecdote to disconnection. It is the anecdote to distrust and anything that's coming up for us

is to listen to people's stories. And it's really the ability to perspective shift, really. The willingness to understand, the willingness to sit with someone and really listen to what their experience of life is. Because we're all walking around and we're all having different experiences of life based on who we are, how we grew up, social narratives in which we grew up with and what we believe.

And so I find that listening is one of the most important things we can do. So I have an exercise that I do in my trainings and I did it last week in Toronto. And this gentleman came up to me crying afterwards. And it's an exercise called what it's like to be me, what it's like to be you. And pretty much you listen to someone, what they say, what it's like to be me, what it's like to be you. And pretty much you listen to someone, what they say, what it's like to be me. They share a story, maybe of their childhood or, you know, how it is to live day to day and their body and their skin. And then the other person just actively listens. And then at the completion of their story, they say, this is what it's like to be you. And they repeat back what they heard them say. And then they repeat the exercise, you know, part of the day, they switch

vice versa. And what that does is it slows down time, first of all, because a lot of the reactions that you so vulnerably shared, Nicole, of cutting people off, you know, just canceling them out of your life or what have you, getting angry, furious. Those are all critter brain responses to life. That's a response from the critter brain, the amygdala. It's your amygdala being hijacked. It's the fight, fight, freeze of let me cut this person out and out of my life. And that is coming from, you know, our amygdala, our critter brain thinking is constantly asking the question, am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? And so in those moments when you cut, before you cut people off, you're, you're feeling unsafe. So you're just

cutting them off. And what storytelling does and active listening and many of the self-regulation tips really require us to slow down, slow down decision-making, slow down those jerk reactions, to be able to access the front of our brain, the prefrontal cortex, which gives us the ability to listen, to collaborate, to get curious. I was just on a call last night and my mentor, who actually was mentored by the late Larry King, he was sharing how Larry King would always say that you can't be curious and furious at the same time, because it requires two parts of the brain. It requires the curious is the prefrontal cortex. The furious is the critter brain. And so we get to look at how are we responding to other people? Do our words heal or do our words harm? Or even our actions, do our actions heal or do our actions harm? So active listening is really

a powerful way. And coming from a place of showing that you understand what they're saying by repeating back what you heard them say, a loop of understanding essentially what my exercise does. What I heard you say is, and then repeating back what you heard them say. And so what that creates is oxytocin that shows the other person that they have been seen, that they have been heard, that they have been affirmed. And that creates a connection between you and your quote unquote enemy. So I love the, you can't be curious and furious at the same time that jives with my experience and in full disclosure, furious usually comes fast, right? And so this might be a dumb question, but are there any just questions? So doing an

exercise with somebody, you have to have two engaged and willing participants potentially. But let's say I'm just, you know, sitting at a dinner table with somebody I perceive as my crazy uncle, or I'm having a conversation with somebody and they say something that ignites the fire inside of me, what might be a question that I could ask to set myself up for listening and also to slow down so that the feeling kind of can pass and that I can actually have dialogue versus being in furious for, you know, or in staying there. Is my question making any sense? It absolutely makes sense. And so, because the thing is, critter brain reactions are automatic. And so it's this, like everything in life, this mindful communication gets to be a practice. And we get to see when our, like, we get to feel when the stress response is coming up and we get to notice and we get to

be able to be quick to the regulation. And so when we feel that fire, as you said, coming alive in us in that moment is, you know, even saying out words to the other person is like, I get to sit with this for a moment. And then I want to come back and, and, you know, address this later. Like I, you can even saying it's like, well, you know, what you just said, I found that hurtful. I'm curious, was that your intention? And, and so being, you know, sometimes it's going to require us to say, you know, Ooh, I'm, I'm feeling a little heated by, by that comment. I, I'm feeling a little heated by that comment. I'm going to choose to slow down and come back to this conversation at a later time. As you have an experience, you get to kind of listen and then you get to notice what comes alive in you in that moment, whether it's sadness, fear,

anger, fierceness, whatever's coming alive in you. And you get to acknowledge it. And, you know, the book is divided into five sections. The first is communicating with yourself. It's intra communication. It is being able to hold counsel with yourself and think about what you're going to say before you even open your mouth. And some of these tools are self-reflection questions and meditation and breath work, being able to take three breaths before you respond. And so this is intentional communication. This is deliberate. This is not shooting from the hip. And so the slowing down is very important. Being able to do breath work, like there's a method in the book called the bar method, which is breathe, acknowledge, respond. And so that breath work that

you do before just breathing in and out, it just brings you back into your body to be able to, how do I want to respond? And something that's very important that helps us in this response is, is I say there's three steps to a mindful response. First is being, is a kind acknowledgement of the person. And I challenge you to have a kind acknowledgement, even if they just hurt you, even if that person just harmed you, what that requires of you is to dig deep and even say something like, you know, maybe someone at work harms you in some way, or says something or microaggression or whatever that happens. And you get to dig deep and you can say, you know, I just so appreciate the times in the past that you went up to bat for me,

you know, on certain projects. I admire how passionate you are about your beliefs. That's sometimes what I go to when somebody says something I vehemently disagree with. I'm like, well, I'm just as passionate about what I believe and I admire that. So can I admire that quality in somebody without admiring the thing they believe? That is an example of something that pops into my mind. I love someone who's passionate about their beliefs. And I have that similar passion about X, Y, and Z. I definitely would love to hear you out about your beliefs. And I request the same patience or the same listening or the same open-mindedness. Thank you. And so what you're doing is you're acknowledging the person. That's number one,

a kind acknowledgement. Number two is you're giving a mindful response. Like, you know, thank you so much for going up to bat for me and projects in the past. And I don't believe in name calling. My request is that you do not call me names. So the second is a mindful response. Like, you know, name calling is not something that I believe in or is not conducive to a professional environment, you know, whatever the mindful response is. And the third one is a powerful request. I request that you do not call names, or you do not say mean things. And so kind

acknowledgement, mindful response, powerful request. And so talking to your enemies is not about being a doormat. It is about being a kind disruption. One part is communicating with yourself, part one. Part two is communicating with others. That's interpersonal communication. That's really where the rubber meets the road. That's when we're talking about empathetic listening and the power of the apology

and just being able to communicate with others. Number three is communicating through differences. That's moral differences, political differences, differing beliefs. Number three, number four is communicating through conflict. And conflict looks like, you know, there's a dispute. You know, two people want two different things or perhaps it's a harm situation where someone was harmed.

And then that leads us into the fifth is communicating through harm, where I address sexual harassment, racism, even hate speech. I was at the International Association of Business Communicators last week in Toronto, and a woman was talking to me about the workplace. And she's like, but yeah, you can only say these things if there's psychological safety in the workplace. And I said, yes, that's something that all cultures, company cultures get to commit to. And there will be times in your life that it won't be so safe. And that we get to advocate for ourselves and others.

I mean, if we think about Martin Luther King, was it psychologically safe? And he did it anyways. So I call people into their leadership. And that's just what popped into my head too, is one of the things that I find so fascinating about leadership is there's often this paradox that exists. There's two seemingly contradictory things that are both true. And so when you talk about kind disruption, that's an example to me of a paradox. It doesn't seem like they go together, but when they do, it's powerful. I read an article that came through my inbox a few days ago that talked about rage and love. And again, paradox, these two seemingly contradictory things that are both true and when used together and not seen as, you know, polar

opposites can be incredibly powerful. I cannot let you go without talking about, you know, as we're recording this, we're coming up to an election, one that's bound to be a contentious one and just coming off of one. We're in a state of political unrest. I find that both political parties are accusing each other of pretty much the same things, cancel culture. And I find, and I'm curious your take on this, more and more people being called out for things that they say and things that they do, and they then turn around and apologize for them. And I'm not sure that the apology is real or helpful or any of those things. And it just feels like we're just really, really messy. And you've talked about a few things, but I want to hone in on cancel culture and apologies. So let's first start with apologies. I know that this is something that you talk about in your book. What's your advice or what are your thoughts about apologizing when you're not sorry? And then

the second thing is when you're sorry and you want to apologize, how do we do this effectively? Actually, this was a framework I created being a follower, an Instagram follower of Alyssa Milano. And this was after the Me Too movement. Well, the Me Too movement is a movement. So there's no before. Well, there is before, but there's it's continuously, it's a movement. And, but she was, she said something that was really profound. And I created a three-step framework on it. But basically she said, why is it so hard for men accused of sexual harassment to just say, I'm sorry for the hurt I've caused. I'm willing to listen. I want to grow. I'm 100 percent committed to being part of the solution.

And then she goes on to say in her post, you know, instead they gaslight and try to discredit women. And and so this three step apology is starting one, empathizing with the person. Again, and Brene Brown says the apology gets to be 100% of the person and not about you. So empathizing with the person. Number two is apologizing. And number three is committing. And so it looks like this. Number one, I see now how that must have felt for you.

So that's empathizing. Number two, I'm sorry for the hurt I've caused. I'm willing to listen and learn. So that's empathizing. Number two, I'm sorry for the hurt I've caused. I'm willing to listen and learn. So that's the apology. And number three is a commitment. I'm committed to doing better. Because really, apology gets to include change behavior. And so as you were talking about in terms of, you know, these kind of pseudo apologies or apologizing because of pressure of the fear of being canceled, you can kind of sense when some apology is created these inauthentic apologies is that people are not able to speak their truth. And so I believe that empathy is a two-way street, that we get to sit at the table with everyone, even though the person sitting next to you does not believe, you don't believe what they think, and they don't believe what you think is we get to empathize we

get to hold space we get to listen and we get to understand and this is where the work gets really difficult for people and i and i i see that because you know we're we're in it and and i truly believe we are on this planet humankind is meant to converse, connect with other humans. We are here to make other humans better. And in turn, through that process, we become better as well. And, and that's where the real work starts. It is easy to, to cancel someone. It's easy to cut someone off. It's easy to, there's a whole article in, I forgot the name of the magazine, but they're saying is, you know, claiming your peace culture or, you know, I need my peace culture, glorifying loneliness culture, because it is easy to cut everyone off

and live in your house by yourself and get Uber Eats and watch Netflix. I can tell you that. That's easy. The rubber meets the road when you get to be in community and conversation and conversing with others, when you're committed to others' growth as well as your growth, our destinies are intertwined. Every human's destinies are intertwined. So we can just say, oh, that person over there, they're canceled or they're whatever, but then they're going to go on and do their stuff. But that's going to in turn impact others and impact us. And so how can we be a stand? How can we call people forth? How can we be in community? And yes, it can be emotionally laborious. It could be exhausting

if you look at it that way, or it could be exhilarating. That's a phenomenal point. And I couldn't agree more that we are wired for connection. There's just no, and I'm a diehard introvert and I believe that and know that to be absolutely true. And sometimes it's just harder than it is in others. And I love the point that you're making is almost the hard is what makes it great. It's what gives us the biggest opportunity for growth and for peace and for all the things that we want so thank you for challenging us in that way um you mentioned name calling earlier what are your thoughts about calling people racist sexist those those terms. Yeah. And specifically as it relates to having conversations

with people who believe differently than we do. Yeah. Our brain is really wired to label people and to categorize people. And it makes us feel safer. It's like, okay, that person's a racist or that person's a Karen or that person's a Karen or that person's a sexist or what have you.

And so I invite people into noticing when that is what you are called to do in that moment. And I have an exercise for it. And it's something that I do in workshops and I'll ask, especially in the workplace, I'll ask people, who here has a difficult co-worker? Difficult co-worker by show of hands and people raise their hand and, you know, giggle usually, yeah, I have a difficult co-worker. And then I'll say, perhaps you don't have a difficult

co-worker, but you have a co-worker who has a difficult or is dealing with a difficult circumstance at home. You have a coworker with difficult circumstances. And the exercise is called put people first. which really robs them of their humanity, of their ability to become, to evolve, to grow. Because once they're labeled that way, then everyone's like, oh, that's a difficult co-worker, difficult co-worker. And then I say the same thing, you know, who here has a negative neighbor, negative neighbor or a negative friend, they raise their hand. And perhaps you don't have a negative neighbor, but a neighbor who perhaps has a negative mindset and not the tool set or the skill set rather to overcome it. So what does it look like to reframe? And then I take it on to

the next level, which can be very challenging. Who here has a racist uncle or a racist family member? People raise their hands. And I say, perhaps you don't have a racist uncle. But you have an uncle who has racist ideologies and beliefs that they learned from a very early age and not the skills or the understanding or the ability or the or the resources to overcome it at this point and so what that does is it it says that we get to be 100 responsible for who we touch for who we connect with and that we can be the change in someone else's life. There are so many examples of people, a man who had a swastika on his stomach was in jail and his parole officer, a Black woman, and he was embarrassed to have this swastika he she he was like she's my family and friend

that over time what is available is that when we get to know people that when we build relationships that when we connect with others that is the anecdote to the fears to the hate to the uncertainty to the hurt to the harm to the trauma that has led to many of our beliefs. And so there are countless examples of people who've evolved, who've changed, who became something different through their connection with another human being. That is so big, the putting the people first. I haven't ever heard it framed in that way. And just the couple of examples that you gave, so powerful. I actually teared up a little bit because it's so easy to discount the person when you name or label them something or put them in a category, as you said,

yet so much braver, so much more powerful, so much more impactful when you think about the person and their experiences and what brought them to this point today. So Alicia, thank you. I feel like I have a zillion more questions and I'm going to send people to your website, talktoyourenemies.com to get their free chapter of the book. But if you're anything like me, you're going to skip the free chapter and just go order it on Amazon. So again, it's talk to your enemies is the name of the book by Alicia Dunham's. You can also find her on social media. We'll put all of her stuff in show notes. Alicia, thank you for this brave and important work and for having this conversation with somebody who has a lot of

work to do in it. The work is happening. It's already happening, Nicole. I so appreciate you and for this invitation. Absolutely. My pleasure. All right. I'm going to close this out by saying this was a really tough one for me. I don't have enemies, but there are very few people in my life that I've ever felt hatred for, mostly because I cut people out of my life before it ever gets to that point. And in some cases, I truly believe that letting go and moving on was, and might be the most productive and healthy solution in some cases, but it's, it definitely has its downsides. It keeps my inner circle pretty small and homogenous. It limits my exposure to different perspectives and ways of seeing things.

It doesn't provide a ton of opportunity to practice empathy and curiosity. And it definitely hasn't done much to help me develop the skill of having those really difficult conversations. In today's day and age, those things are superpowers. We need the skill of communicating effectively with people we disagree with. Desperately need that skill. Rage, cursing, and walking away might have their place, but listening, apologizing, empathy,

curiosity, understanding, healing, and peacemaking are necessary. And who better to lead the way than us? Women have long understood the power and the strength required to do any one of those things. Listening isn't the easy way out. Ignoring is. Empathy isn't weak. Righteousness and revenge are. The irony is all the things they've been calling soft skills are the hardest ones,

and the world needs it right now. It needs us, myself included, to step up. Together now, this is woman's work.