This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 149 / Your Communication Patterns with Cassandra LeClair

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

Most of us have not only NOT been taught the skills to communicate well, we’ve been taught the opposite. We’ve probably observed more examples of INeffective communication than anything. Think about it for a second… were your parents good examples of this? Your first love? Your first boss? I’m gonna take a stab in the dark, and guess the answer for most of us is a hard NO. I am Nicole Kalil, and you can put this episode of TIWW under the category of “shit we should have learned, but didn’t and now it’s wreaking havoc in our lives”. Today, we’re going to develop the skill of COMMUNICATION… especially communicating the hard stuff. Here to support our learning is Dr. Cassandra LeClair, communication consultant, author of Being Whole, and motivational speaker, who is an expert on communicating in relationships and improving connections. Her mission is to educate people on how to understand their communication patterns in order to build effective and healthy communication that enhances their professional and personal relationships. As is true with ALL learning, we learn best through experience, so I don’t want this to be a half an hour where you got some good theoretical tips, I want you to PRACTICE what you’ve learned.  Because practice makes progress. And since very few of us were taught effective communication along the way, we’ve got lots of practicing to do. Connect with Cassandra: Website: www.cassandraleclair.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcassandraleclair/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drcassandraleclair LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drcassandraleclair/ Click here to access her free guide to unlocking the secrets to true self care To join Nicole’s pod (to get all the inside scoops, free stuff, and the occasional rant), click here

Out of curiosity, I just Google searched, what are the keys to a healthy relationship? And I got about 98 million results in less than one second. So clearly it's not the first time the search engine has been asked this question. And I have to say, I'm pleasantly surprised. At the very top of my page where the answers were, it said things like honesty, respect, empathy, commitment, acceptance, self-awareness, and confidence. And you know how happy it made my soul to see confidence on that list. And what I like about this list is that it applies to all types of relationships, romantic, friendship, family, and professional. But do you know what was at the top of pretty much every list, link, and article on the topic? Yep, you guessed it,

communication. The key to healthy relationships of any kind is communication, which makes a ton of sense and also explains why so many of us are struggling to find, create, and build healthy relationships. Most of us suck at communication, especially when we're hurt, angry, feeling uncertain, or in a messy stage of our life. Before you feel personally attacked, I'm right there with you. Where are those communication classes in elementary school? Sure, you can get a communications degree in college, but shouldn't it be required coursework our entire lives if it's the greatest key to us having healthy relationships? Most of us have not only not been taught the skills to communicate well,

we've been taught the opposite. We've probably observed more examples of ineffective communication than anything else. Think about it for a second. Were your parents good examples of this? Your first love? Your first boss? I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess the answer for most of us is a hard no. I am Nicole Kalil, and you can put this episode of This Is Woman's Work under the category of shit we should have learned but didn't, and now it's wreaking havoc in our lives. Today, we're going to develop the skill of communication, especially communicating the hard stuff. Here to support our learning is Dr. Cassandra LeClaire, communication consultant, author of Being Whole, and a motivational speaker who's an expert on communicating in relationships and improving connections. Her mission is to educate people

on how to understand their own communication patterns in order to build effective and healthy communication that enhances their professional and personal relationships. Cassandra, thank you so much for being here. I'm going to start under the assumption that everyone listening believes that communication is an important skill, and so we don't need to convince them, but I want to dive right into the deep end. Why is it so freaking hard to communicate effectively?

I mean, first of all, thank you for that wonderful introduction. I couldn't have asked for a better setup for the importance of communication. And to dive right into the answer, it's exactly what you said. We're never taught the proper ways to process our feelings, to manage our emotions, to express what we need, to really have those hard conversations. So from childhood, we adapt and learn from other people's reactions to us, responses to us, to our own internalized feelings. And then those become our patterns. So by the time we get, especially into adulthood, where we're navigating a lot of stressors

or different relationship issues, or maybe not able to express our emotions or talk about things, it is a pattern that has been ingrained over and over and over since our childhood. relationship issues, or maybe not able to express our emotions or talk about things. It is a pattern that has been ingrained over and over and over since our childhood. So then we're at this place where we're unlearning these things. At the same time, we're trying to learn new habits. And that's difficult because what we do, we get stuck in our ways. A hundred percent. And I had a feeling childhood had something to do with it.

So let's maybe start there. What are some tips or ways that we can begin to understand or identify our own communication patterns? Those things that, you know, we learned unconsciously that we may want to be paying attention to and determine whether or not we want to unlearn, replace, or build in a different direction today. Absolutely. And I think, you know, in particular for women, a lot of this has been something that has been ingrained in us a lot of times to not necessarily be able to express our needs or to even talk about things because we have been raised to be people pleasers or to be accommodating or to be nurturing or to put others first. And then especially when you're in roles where you feel like you have to do that, your own thoughts and feelings can kind of really take a backseat your whole life.

So the thing that I really suggest to people is not only it's two things that sound like they're the opposite, but they both have different purposes. So number one is start to look at those areas where you're resentful, where you're stressed out, where you're a little frustrated and see if there are threads there. Is it because you feel overextended because then you've said yes to too many things and you didn't know how to tell people no? Is it because you're frustrated that other people aren't picking up a slack at home or at work, but then have you talked to them about your frustrations? You know, a lot of times we have kind of this underlying resentment or

frustration that bubbles up within us, but we're not really articulating, you know, how it has come about, you know, we're mad in the moment, but not realizing like everything that's led up to it. So really understanding, is there a place in your patterning of your own communication where, you know, you're letting things go for too long and then you're mad about them. And that's normal. That happens to everybody. So this is not a shame-filled thing where then you have to beat yourself up at all. It's more of that awareness of recognizing, oh, okay, I actually am really annoyed by this specific instance.

Whether it's not my partner isn't unloading the dishwasher or somebody is always five minutes late or whatever it is. So what can I do to regain some control before that frustration bubbles up? And so often the answer to that is, oh, I need to set better boundaries or, oh, I need to look at where I'm saying yes to, or I need to understand my reactions to this other person. So looking at kind of that frustration can be a good thing. The flip side of that, like where I was saying, it sounds like I'm giving two pieces of advice that are opposite is also then look at those areas where you do feel good as well. Where do you feel seen, heard, and valued and what is happening in those moments, you know,

and that's something that we often fail to do in relationships is we get really focused on the nitpicky things that other people are doing that frustrate us or bother us. But then we fail to kind of also acknowledge and recognize those wonderful and beautiful areas and show appreciation for other people. And if you think about it, you know, when we're kind of training other people to fall in love with us or to be in love with us or be in relationship with us, whatever that looks like, we want to give them that positive reinforcement. Like this made me feel really good when you put down your phone and paid full attention to me. It makes me feel special when

you take the time to plan something with me or whatever it is that you have to articulate. So I think the, both of those things, what those are doing is it's helping individuals assess what are your needs? What are your preferences? Because communication like anything else, it's not a one and done. It's not a one size fits all. It's not going to look the same across your relationships. And it really is getting to that place of, okay, what makes me feel good in relationships? What makes me feel seen, heard, and valued? What really triggers me? What don't I like? And again, for the majority of women, we have never stopped to think about those things.

So it's a lot harder than it sounds. Yeah. Well, when you were talking about the first part where our frustrations or negative feelings might be giving us some insight into where we might not be communicating our needs or desires. You know, I was nodding the whole time and I felt like I could answer for the vast majority of the women listening in. Yes. We're all feeling that from the dishwasher to the, you know, whatever, we're all feeling

that. And I love so much that you talked about the flip side of that because we have a dog and I know this is a ridiculous example, but no, it's not. It's a perfect example. Go with it. I'm learning so much the value of positive reinforcement and how much like the no or the don't do or the, that doesn't seem to work, but the positive reinforcement is really incredible. And, you know, when we do it in our relationships, our adult relationships, I know it's a little different, but I think the concept applies that when we focus on the negative or the things we don't like, it triggers defensiveness. If we are able to communicate what does feel good, what does work, I think it makes people

want to do more of it. Absolutely. Because if you think about it too, somebody who loves and cares about you probably doesn't want to get it wrong, you know, so that positive reinforcement can show other people, because again, we all have needs. Having needs does not make you needy. It makes you human, but our needs are different. How we express them, how we want love expressed back to us, care and concern, all of those things. So, so often we get in this trap where we just expect other people to know or we're frustrated, but we haven't actually, again, done kind of that teaching.

Just like we're learning about ourselves, we're teaching other people what feels good to us, helping them understand our preferences, which might be very different than theirs too. So this is where that communication aspect is so important because, you know, we know what feels good to us. And then we kind of automatically assume that other people have those same feelings as opposed to really talking about, Hey, you know what, this is what I like, what do you like? And really starting there and having that conversation. And there is also, of course, you know, got to throw some research in there. It is there, you know, Gottman has done the research that it's usually five to one. So for every one negative interaction, a couple in particular, having five positive interactions

to really weigh out that balance. So it is, you need more positive reinforcement, just like you're saying with training your dog, then you do the negative. And you can think, not only is it just about the words, think about your tone and your demeanor and the way that feels to somebody else versus the constant, you didn't do this right, you didn't do this right, you didn't do this right. So as it relates to communication patterns,

I think what we just talked about helps to identify or think about where, in what situations, or what might trigger certain communication patterns. I want to talk a little bit about, though, the actual how we're communicating as it relates to patterns. So for example, becoming sarcastic might be a communication pattern or being wishy-washy or I don't know, like how do we identify what pattern we might be falling into, a trap we might be falling into and how we communicate with people that might not be serving us? Oh, that's such a good question because a lot of times, again, these responses are so

conditioned and we're getting better now at acknowledging our nervous system and recognizing that mind body connection. But for the majority of us, that's not a natural go-to to understand like how the words that are coming out of our mouths or how our demeanor is directly tied to what's going on internally. Right. So if you think about, you know, you can think about the classic examples of maybe something goes bad for somebody. And so they use a lot of self-deprecating humor to deflect from that internal feeling of sadness or shame or whatever it is. And or somebody, like you're saying, kind of those patterns or things.

And it really is kind of asking yourself, do those things make you feel better in the end? Or are they just helping you get by in a moment? And a lot of times, you know, they're helping us get through an uncomfortable situation or we're deflecting, but then we go back to that situation later and we ruminate on it, or we kind of shame ourselves for our behavior, or we feel we should have acted differently. So I really, I really want people to pay attention to those places. Like, where are you then not being nice to yourself after the fact? You know, where are you maybe

shaming yourself or getting down on yourself for the behaviors that you had? And this is very common. You know, it's not something we talk a lot about either. You know, we're not sitting around being like, oh, I shame myself all day. And here's why, because that itself has a shame filled, you know, connotation to it that we don't want to admit that. So it's a really good way to understand how you're keeping yourself in those spaces then, because what are the other alternatives? Okay. So maybe it is still that it's your go-to to make a self-deprecating joke because it feels more comfortable to you than to talk about how some things upset you, right? Okay. So you make that joke, but then can you also say, you know, I know I joke around about this, but there are times where it really does get me down. Like, is there somebody

where you can kind of crack it a little bit, you know, and that's the key with all of these patterns. It's not, it's not something where you should go in and blow them all up at once and try to, I'm going to do everything new because then what will happen is you'll fall back into those patterns and then you'll shame yourself again. So it's more effective to really understand, okay, this is something I do, or this is something that maybe bothers me or that other people have pointed out or that I noticed about myself. So how can I flip it just a little bit, or how can I try a different kind of interaction with maybe a new person, or maybe it's in a different space and see how that feels to me. Cause so much of this also is getting it to feel safe to you because your body just defaults. It

defaults to what it knows. I mean, it's your brain is actually very lazy and it's going to keep doing what it is supposed to do based on your old patterns until you tell it something new. Okay. I want to talk quite a bit about communicating through some of the harder things. I think, you know, when you're having a good day and everything's going according to plan and you're achieving and you're winning and you like the people you're with, communication is relatively easy. It's all the other times where it can be a really big challenge. Any tips for communicating when your emotions are really high? That's such a great question too. And this is, you know, I'm going to keep bringing it back to our dysregulated nervous systems and our, our lack of a realization of

how that's impacting our communication. So the number one thing there is to remember to breathe and to breathe deeply because we fail to realize that we're not even breathing really. We're just kind of shallow breathing. We're going through the moments and then that's ramping up our nervous system. And also to take into consideration everything that's happening in the world, everything that's happened over the last few years. So what I mean by that is typically, if you think about it, like you said, when you're having a good day, your emotions are all like, think of them as like being neatly tucked inside your body and they come out at the appropriate times and the appropriate amount and the right way for everybody. Right. But when you're having those days where you're maybe a little stressed or maybe you didn't sleep well, or maybe something set you off, or it's just an off day. Those same emotions feel like

they're right underneath your skin, just prickling up, ready to come out at any point in time. So it's understanding what that feels like to you. So some of this is for some people, they'll start to notice their heart rate increases, right? For other people, they'll hear it in their voice. Their voice will start to sound different. Other people, like all emotions come out of me in tears, you know, so I can feel when I'm feeling tear. I'm like, okay, something's going on. So some of this is recognizing where are you feeling things in your body and how can we move some of that energy a little bit differently? So that's where, again, remembering to breathe is so important. Also, then things in terms of the actual statements and things that we're doing, remembering always to bring it back to yourself. So this is where it's I statements versus you statements.

When we are upset, we tend to say, like, you do this, you always do that. You never. And we say you always and you never a lot. Well, like you had mentioned earlier, that puts people on a defensive because we're immediately, it feels like we're attacking them. So also remembering how can I phrase this and frame this in a way of what's happening to me? I feel this way when this is what I am feeling. And so then it's about your response to the behavior instead of about attacking the other person for what's happening. And so this is so important too, because it can help you then understand again, your patterns. And this is why I'm so big into, you know, journaling, keeping a note in your phone, you know, even if you just keep a track, keep a tally of like, I was frustrated that day,

frustrated that day and see if you can see any themes or patterns, because for some people, it's certain topics that are frustrating to them. Sometimes for some people, it's certain topics that are frustrating to them. Sometimes for some people, it's a time of day. Sometimes it's just a certain person, or like you said, it could be the weather that day. So really understanding, okay, I am actually activated right now and stop looking for the reason why to that. And if that helps you to figure out why then by all means, but sometimes we get so caught up on this. Why am I feeling this way that we search for that instead of trying to understand, okay, well, I am feeling this way right now. So what am I going to do about it?

And I'm going to remember to like, again, call my nervous system a little bit, take a break, take a deep breath. And if you can feel yourself kind of like ramping up internally, also, can you acknowledge that to other people? Can you ask for breaks when you need to, especially in those difficult conversations or conflict situations before things do escalate more? And this of course is really hard. And this is where it's hard to catch it in the moment.

And it does take practice. You know, we all snap, we all have moments of emotional reactivity. So again, instead of beating yourself up for those being like, snap, we all have moments of emotional reactivity. So again, instead of beating yourself up for those being like, okay, what could have led to that moment? What, what maybe do I want to do differently in the next moment? And how can I understand what's happening to me then, you know? And so again, it's like, can you start to understand your patterns of when you feel overwhelmed? Okay. Great tips in there. I'm going to keep my commentary to a minimum because I just want to ask a bunch of questions. My next question, and this might play out more in the workplace or with family or extended family,

any tips for communicating with people you simply just don't like? I mean, we have to do it, right? I'd love to tell you, we can just only talk to the people that we love and enjoy, but that's not reality, right? So it helps to remember the purpose of why you're communicating and stop focusing on the fact that you don't like the person, because if you don't like the person or that irritate you, or there's bad blood there, history or what have you, you probably can't change that, right? So instead, okay. And this can happen a lot of times. I work with a lot of divorced couples too, in co-parenting situations. You know, you're tied to that person if you have to share custody and what have you. So instead of focusing on your relationship, what is the task?

OK, the task is that I'm co-parenting with this individual over this child. And here is what I am trying to do and continually bringing it back. Same way in the workplace. OK, I do not like this co-worker or I do not work well with them, but way in the workplace. Okay. I do not like this coworker or I do not work well with them, but this is the task. And, and that can be helpful. And I know, again, that sounds really simple, but it's not what we do. It's not our regular go-to our regular go-to again, because we have all those feelings and emotions living inside of our body. It's to go back to that hurt. It's to go back to that frustration. It's to go to that place. And then we start every interaction from that place. So instead it's like, okay, I don't have to like this person,

but what are our tasks and what are our goals and how can I get there? How can I not allow their, you know, whatever they're doing that frustrates me then to ruin the rest of my day. And sometimes it is a little bit about compartmentalizing too, unfortunately, you know, like, okay, I'm going to have this interaction or I know I have to talk to this person every day. a little bit or whatever it is to reset instead of then letting that interaction carry through the rest of the day. I love the idea of focusing on the task that as opposed to the relationship or what you don't like about the person that spoke to me like directly. I want to talk about this concept that I think a lot of us have that if we're good communicators and I put it in air quotes, if we're good communicators, then people will react and

respond in the way we want them to. Is that a good, not good, healthy, not healthy, appropriate, not appropriate way of defining good communication. It's a really slippery slope, right? Because then that assumes that we can control anybody's reactions or feelings toward us. And the reality of it is, is we can't control anyone else's feelings or reactions. You could do everything perfectly. I mean, I have a PhD in communication. I know all the theories. I know all the things. I still don't get it right every time. I still have moments where I'm like, did I really get my degree? Because it sure didn't sound like it.

And I have those moments where, you know, other people's responses shock me because I'm like, I did everything right. Why did they do that? And so it's more of a matter, again, this is where communication is so personal of, do you feel good about how you communicated? Are you working to, you know, undo some of those negative patterns that you shame yourself for, or the things that don't feel good to you. And then also paying attention to the people who noticed those shifts and changes for you. It can really teach you a lot about your relationships, because especially as you're trying to grow and change, you will notice the people who don't allow that, or you will notice the people who keep trying to bring you back to a different place. And so this is why a

lot of times relationships do shift when one person develops more self-awareness or what have you, because it really is this, this understanding of, oh, I see that this person is always having this negative reaction to me. And rather than trying to convince them or change them, I'm going to now accept that they aren't going to respond to me in the way that I want or the way that I need. And that's really, it can be hurtful, but it's very valuable information as well, because then it can also teach you where to put your energy. Oh, but this other person over

here, they actually don't make me feel that way. Or I actually do have a really good rapport response with them. And so this can be situation dependent. Like I have a very dear friend who absolutely, if I have something wrong and I reach out to her, I never feel better. She's just not good at giving me the emotional support that I need. And every time I reach out to her afterward, I'm like annoyed. So guess what? I stopped reaching out to her for those things. She's a very valuable and wonderful friend and resources in other areas that we mesh and gel great with, but she just doesn't happen to be able to give me the type of emotional support I need. And that's okay. Cause then I can find somebody else who can. So it's also understanding that not everybody is going to be everything to you. And this is why developing many relationships, having different types of relationships and people that you can talk to is so healthy and important

for us as well. Again, a lot of good things in there. I love this shift. I've been working on this in my own life because I used to have good communication means, you know, the result was what I wanted it to be, or they responded in the way I thought I wanted them to respond. And it's just shifted a lot to, do I feel proud of myself? You know, did I represent myself, my values, my desires well? And if the answer is yes, then I, I practiced good communication. And that doesn't mean that I don't still have things to learn. But it was just a little bit of a shift similar to this topic, but maybe a little bit of an extension of it. I think as women, we often

care a lot, probably too much what other people think about us. How do we let go of the worrying about what, how other people are going to perceive us or our needs or our pain or whatever it is that we're communicating in order to communicate more effectively? It's, this is something somebody told me years ago, and I remind myself of it a lot. It's that other people aren't thinking about you as much as you are thinking about you. So we get so wrapped up in what other people think and try to remember that they're doing the same thing about themselves. They're wrapped up in what you're thinking. So we're all wrapped up in what other people are thinking about us. And it is actually rare that anyone else is spending that much time thinking about us and our behaviors.

So some of this, again, to it, unfortunately, you know, not trying to bring everything back to childhood, but some of this is a lot of conditioning. You know how and for some people you can pick back a certain memory where somebody made you feel small or somebody made you feel bad or you wanted to prove to somebody that you were more valuable or what have you. So sometimes it really is, again, looking at your self-esteem with things. Okay. Is, am I impacted? Is my self-worth impacted by somebody else's negative opinion of me? And if so, why, what power do they hold over me? Okay.

Is this somebody, is it because I highly respect them and I want them to like me, or is it just a deeper fear that I need to please people and need to please other people? And honestly, for myself, it was a deeper fear. It wasn't about anyone else. It was my own insecurities. It's my own self-worth, my own self-awareness. So unpacking that is really hard, especially honestly, for a lot of women, because we go around and we have this facade that we have everything going on that we're managing everything. And so then to have this inside feeling, not match what people see on the outside, it makes it even harder to talk about. So really being able to even worst case scenario it for yourself. Okay. If this person doesn't like me, or if this person doesn't

respond to me, what is actually going to happen? Not the storyline your brain has told you, but what is actually going to happen? And can you live if that person doesn't like you? And the majority of the time, the answer is yes. Right. And, and really trying to understand why is it so important that I get this other person to like me? And those are uncomfortable things to think about really. And that's why we don't, it's much easier to stay in these patterns than it is to kind of look at the, why we do things or to try to uncover that. And again, if you notice that you're doing it, it doesn't mean like you have to shame yourself and, oh, you're a terrible person or a terrible communicator.

It's like, I like to use that as data and think about the data as power for yourself. Okay, but this is how I can be more in control of this. Or this is where I do notice myself, like kind of trying to get other people to like me. And sometimes it can be an insecurity. Sometimes it's in big groups and it reminds you of being in seventh grade where you weren't, you know, in the group or whatever it is, right? And those are very valuable experiences that can show us. You just have a little more to heal, you know? So tell that part of you, tell that piece of you, like we're not

in that situation right now and give yourself, you know, sometimes it is like giving yourself that pep talk and reminding yourself of this situation of where you are now and how you can change and grow. And worst case scenario, if that person doesn't like what you said, there probably is somebody else who does like what you said. I feel the greatest example where that plays out in my life is anytime I have to say no.

That's where that like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna let people down or I'm gonna send the message that I don't care or that I'm selfish. And I know that that's a deep rooted thing. It's not about any one person. It's just anytime I'm in a position where the best, where I want to say no, that's where that comes up for me. So any tactics or tips around communicating your no in a way that works? This is so hard. It is. And I just want to really acknowledge that.

I'm so glad it's not just me. No, it's not. It's not. And I really want to acknowledge that point because it sounds again, so easy. You know, you see all those memes, like no is a complete sentence. It's like, yeah, but I don't feel comfortable saying it. And, and so it really was fuck you, but I don't, you know, a lot of people either. Right. And so, so much of this too, is like, I even, and this is not only true, you know, in the research, but I have to do this personally. And that's why I want to say again, this is work.

This is not just like, oh, I read about this and now it's all working out for me. It's a daily practice of recognizing, okay, if you say yes to things and then later on you're energetically depleted or you're looking at your calendar and you're frustrated or you're becoming resentful, why are you so willing to give that energy to somebody else, but not protect it for yourself? And so I've trained, like kind of talked to people about looking at it as self-harm. If I am saying yes to things, and if I am not able to say no, then I am harming myself. I'm harming myself by overloading my schedule, by feeling like spread too thin. By then I am snapping at my kids because I'm stressed out.

You know, it has this ripple effect, right? So the discomfort of saying no lasts way, way less time than the discomfort of saying yes to something that I don't want to say yes to. Right. But it's hard because in that moment, I am absolutely the yes person who will say it. And then after the fact be like, oh shit, why did I do that? You know? So it's really, that's where again, the breathing can help like take that breath and then say the uncomfortable thing. And sometimes there are just different ways I have to phrase it for myself, not for the other person. You know, somebody will ask me to do something and I'll say like, you know, that sounds like a really

great opportunity, but I'm not available at this time. That feels better to me than just saying no. So some of it really isn't like, what is the phrasing that feels good to me? Or what is the way that I can say no without feeling that I had to give a big explanation for something too, because you also don't owe somebody your whole life story. If you don't feel like engaging with them or doing something right. So it's learning to sit with that discomfort in yourself a little bit and telling yourself, okay, this feels uncomfortable right now, but it takes away all of this discomfort for myself going forward. And again, also looking at your relationships with people, how many times have people told, you know, and then you've just like been like, oh, I hate them. I'm never talking to them again.

Chances are not as many as the times where people have told, you know, and you've been like, okay, cool. I'll find somebody else or let me move on. Or maybe you're slightly irritated, but you get over it. People are going to do the same for you. Right. And that's again, another chance to recognize, oh, well, this person doesn't, this person gets very frustrated with me. And that can teach you a lot about that space as well. Okay. I want to close us out with any just general communication tips. Like I've been told it's always better to ask questions than to make statements or be a good listener. That's a really effective part of communication. Any just general tips, things that if somebody was like, I just

want to be a better communicator, where do I start that you would throw out? One of my favorites is to be curious. So we often go into interactions. We've already created a whole storyline or we've created like our response and what they're going to say back, or we, you know, we project onto people. So really reminding myself, especially in conversations where I do already have an opinion or I am a little upset is trying to stay focused. And how I do that is I remind myself, be curious about what they're going to say, be curious about where they're coming from, try to be curious about their feelings. And that helps me instead of feeling like I'm, oh, I'm placing judgment on it, or I know exactly what they're going to say, or preforming my

response or my reactions. And a lot of times people surprise you again. And that's going along with like, you're saying, asking the question, okay, I'm curious about this. Can you explain that more to me? Or that's different than how I would feel about it. So can you tell me about that and allowing them to express those feelings instead of me placing, you know, my assumptions on what they're saying? I think that's an excellent tip and something I am working on in all aspects of my life is to start with curiosity. I also would add for me is just having the communication be the communication. And what I mean by that is I tend to take a five minute interaction or communication and turn it into a five-hour conversation in my own mind. And I just like stop that or at least decrease it. Yeah. Anyway, thank you, Cassandra, so much for your time, for your wisdom. I'm sure we could talk for hours, but if you're listening and you want to learn more

about Dr. Cassandra LeClaire and her work, go to CassandraLeClaire.com or you can find her at Dr. Cassandra LeClaire and her work, go to CassandraLeClaire.com, or you can find her at Dr. Cassandra LeClaire on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. We'll put it all in the show notes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This has been excellent. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad we got to have this conversation. Oh my gosh. My pleasure. Okay. Well, friends, this ends our masterclass on communication. And as is true with all learning, we learn best through experience. So I don't want this to be a half an hour where you got some good theoretical tips. I want you to put into practice what you've learned. That's how you develop any and every skill. So what can you practice today? Maybe it's identifying some communication patterns that have been running your mouth for you without you even being aware.

Maybe it's communicating something you have strong emotions about more effectively. And something I've learned from my work with confidence is put the energy and the focus on the things that you can control. The action you can take. The choices you make. Being curious. The way you're showing up. It may work out beautifully, but it also may not. But the outcome isn't the goal here. Practice is the goal because practice makes progress. And since very few of us were taught effective communication along the way, we've got lots of practicing to do. Communication. It's not just woman's work. It's everyone's work.