This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 151 / Ditching Your Inner “Good Girl” with Renee Bauer

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

On this episode of TIWW, we’re going to talk about ditching your inner “good girl” as well as some other uncomfortable truths that are holding us back from truly winning in life. Here to help us do that is Renee Bauer, Founder and Managing Attorney of “Happy Even After” Family Law, an international speaker, and author of 5 books, including her new book that’s about to be released and is already a bestseller “She Who Wins” (described as an ANTI-rule book, which you know I love). She hosts the She Who Wins podcast as well as the She Who Wins Annual Summit, a live event created to inspire, motivate and challenge women to move forward bravely in their personal and business lives. Clearly, Renee is committed to getting more women to WIN, and I’m here for it. Renee says this: There is a fierce woman fighting to get out. She is YOU. For every woman who was told to smile, to quiet down, and to shrink themselves into the smallest version of themselves. For every woman who is struggling to make a life-altering decision or wondering “what’s next”. For every woman who thinks this is as good as it gets. For every woman who has felt like there has to be more. For every woman who feels like she doesn’t have a right to complain or who feels selfish for even questioning her happiness. There’s a good girl within who is READY to become that fierce woman who’s fighting to get out. To connect with Renee: Website: https://msreneebauer.com IG: @msreneebauer  Book: https://shewhowinsbook.com To join Nicole’s pod (to get all the inside scoops, free stuff, and the occasional rant), click here

Here is a little appetizer to get you ready for the main course. And that's what being a good girl is all about, is you live to some expectation that doesn't feel good to us anymore. And when you ditch that, now you can start to show up to exactly who you are I am Nicole Kalil, and on this episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk about ditching your inner good girl, as well as some other uncomfortable truths that are holding us back from truly winning in life. Because one of the things I see pretty consistently in both my coaching and personal relationships is there's a fundamental belief that's driving the way you think, what you do, and how you feel. And that is if you just did enough, performed well enough, worked hard enough,

or achieved enough, then you'd win in business, relationships, and life. If you were just good enough, then it would all work out. We're so worried about being good enough that we end up getting in the way of our own greatness, our own happiness, our own success, however it is that you define that. Ever heard the expression that good is the enemy of great? Yeah, that and perfect is the enemy of done and more is the enemy of best. There's this unconscious belief that if we're just good enough, we'll get noticed and then we'll get picked, promoted, loved, and satisfied. Well, friends, I don't think I've ever seen it work that way.

I can certainly say it hasn't worked for me. It's time for all of us to ditch that narrative and that inner good girl in favor of something more productive and empowering. Here to help us do just that is Renee Bauer, founder and managing attorney of Happy Even After Family Law, an international speaker and author of five books, including her book that's about to be released, but already a bestseller, She Who Wins, described as an anti-rule book, which you know I love. She hosts the She Who Wins podcast as well as the She Who Wins annual summit, a live event created to inspire, motivate, and challenge women to move forward bravely in their personal

and business lives. Clearly, Renee is committed to getting more women to win, and I am here for it. Renee, thanks so much for joining us. I want to kick off by asking, what do you mean when you say that we need to ditch our inner good girl in order to win? And Nicole, that was the best intro ever. I'm in, I'm in for this conversation. So ditching your inner good girl means that, you know, I grew up as the people pleaser. I colored in the lines like I was the honor roll student. I've never been arrested.

Like I got married, had the kid, got the job, like did all the things right that you're supposed to do or what we think that we're supposed to do. But what I'm finding or what I have found through all of my years of working as a divorce attorney and specifically working with women was that there was something at play here that was bigger than just a divorce or a marriage that wasn't working anymore. And often it was women weren't having uncomfortable conversations. They weren't having the hard conversations with their spouse because they were trying to keep the peace, but that also trickled into maybe a coworker or a boss or someone else where you had a different opinion from, and they wanted to, they wanted to, they were walking on eggshells

and they didn't want to be disruptive because they didn't want that conflict. And in turn, they weren't living their, the life that felt really authentic to them. They weren't chasing that, that goal, that job, that new career. They weren't leaving the job that was sucking their soul dry or leaving that toxic relationship because they were playing a role of the good girl, the good wife, the good mom, the good, you know, the good, everything else. And, you know, I walked that path myself. And the moment I decided that I wasn't going to do that anymore, and I was going to shed

that and it was really hard. It was going to shed that. And it was really hard. It was really, really hard, but it was also so empowering. And that's when everything changed for me and my business scaled and grew. I found the perfectly aligned relationship, not the perfect relationship because that doesn't exist, but the perfectly aligned partner for me. And I was able to have really hard conversations with people who didn't necessarily expect that from me. And that's what being a good girl is all about is you live to some expectation that doesn't feel good to us anymore. And when you ditch that, now you can start to show up to exactly who you are and do so unapologetically. I feel like myself included, everyone listening in is like, yes,

I've been there. I've done that. I might still be there and doing that. It's this letting the shoulds and the supposed tos and the being a good spouse or a good mom or a good fill in the blank, having that get in the way of both speaking and living our truth. One of the things I admire about you is that you're a truth teller. So how can we get better? How can we begin to practice speaking those uncomfortable truths or speaking whatever is going on that's real for us? I love that question so much because I think before I, before I was a truth teller, I was a peacekeeper and it's hard to be both of those things at the same time. So I'm twice divorced and a divorce attorney. So I would go into work, do my job, would show up for clients and I would come home, kick my heels off. And I

was a broken version of myself. I wasn't talking about my own divorces. I had so much shame around it. I had so much embarrassment around it. I wasn't speaking my truth for sure. And I had a friend of mine, uh, who started a podcast and she's like, I'm going to bring you on as a guest. We're going to, um, ask you some questions. Don't worry about it. I'm going to bring some sushi over and have some drinks. And I'm just going to clip this mic on you. No worries. And I didn't listen to podcasts at that point. And so I was like, all right, sushi, I'm in. I'm with you. I'm an easy sell. Right. So she started actually asking me questions about my divorce and I answered them for the first time in a really honest and vulnerable and sometimes really hard, difficult way. And when

that episode aired, I had women reach out to me to say, thank you for sharing your truth. And then I realized all of those years of keeping it like buttoned up because I thought it was professional and it would be unprofessional. If I talk about it was actually one hurting myself, my own healing process. And it was doing a disservice to my clients, first of all, and then any other woman out there who was going through that. So what I did to overcome that is I just started speaking it and I wasn't disparaging. I don't ever talk about my, my two X's in any sort of disparaging way, but I was speaking my truth and owning and saying, this is my story. And so what this is, you know, I'm twice divorced and so what, and this is the lessons that I learned from that. And this is what growth I had from this.

And it was just speaking those words over and over again, that freed me up to then speak other things. And it became easier and easier. So it was like a muscle that I flexed. And I, I practiced it, it didn't just one day wake up and say, I'm going to just share all my stories and, and spill all of it out there. And I've always practiced in a, in a truth telling way to clients. I kind of tell them sometimes what they don't want to hear. So why was I not doing that in my own life and kind of holding that up a mirror up to myself?

And so the, the tip for anyone out there who's listening is just speak it. Stop holding onto it. Stop holding onto that shame and let it out. I couldn't agree more. I think speaking it creates so many more opportunities, but at the very least, it's less heavy than when you're carrying it around all by yourself. One of the things I get asked a lot, and I'm curious your thoughts on is what is the difference between being a good girl versus striving for excellence? We have this idea that we want to be great at the things that are important to us. We might want to be a great mom,

but the flip side is the, you know, good mom or the shoulds and supposed to, how do we know the difference? That's a great question. One no one's ever asked me before. I think that, you know, I think it's an inside job. So I think the good girl image is what we are projecting outside is what we want people to see of us or what people to think of us.

And I think excellence is inside. Excellence is how we want to show up in our own life in that way that is challenging and challenges our mind, challenges our heart, our spirit, our soul, all of that. And that's what excellence is about. Like I'm going to always strive for how can I be my best in this situation? How can I show up for my people in the best way? How can I approach some, uh, something really hard in the best way? I mean, that's excellence and that's for coming from in and the good girl is, is really about

what everyone else, um, what we think everyone else, uh, perceives us as. I think that's a beautiful answer. And it aligns so much with what I've learned about confidence. It's an inside job. And when we spend too much energy on how it looks versus how it is, that's where it tips over into something that's not healthy or not productive. But I love that it's an internal thing. Excellence, uh, being a good girl or a good mom or a good fill in the blank is typically about how it is perceived or looks or how we think it looks to someone else. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Uh, you mentioned earlier expectations. I know one of the things you talk about in the book is releasing expectations. How does releasing expectations come into play with something like being a good girl? When I was doing my divorce work, one of the things that I would always tell clients, the minute you attach an expectation to any outcome is the minute that you are not happy with what happens. You're not going to be happy with your lawyer. You're not going to be happy

with your ex or your ex's lawyer because you have an expectation of what you think something is supposed to be. But when you release that and you go into something with a little bit more of a, okay, let's, you know, let's be open to some other solutions or creative ideas or other outcomes, then you don't have an emotional response when something shapes up a certain way. And I think that that's the way life is. Like we can have an expectation about what we want our life to look like. And, you know, I can use my book publishing process for an example. It took 113 rejections from literary agents before I got the yes. And my expectation was I was going to get the first agent, the first book deal and

have my lake writing house within all like three months, you know, that expectation initially set me up for some major disappointment because when the 50th rejection rolled in, in my, my, you know, my spirit was defeated. I was like, all right, I think I need to change my expectation of what this process looks like. And then when I did get the agent, my expectation of what the publishing process looks like. And so then you can have more joy with the journey of it because the expectation usually is attached to an end goal. And now, and it takes work, like this is something I can say, oh, this is what we should be doing. Or, but I mean, this is a process that I'm going through as we speak.

It takes so much work to constantly remind myself that it's the journey. And I have to release sort of the end result sometimes or what that goal is. And that's, you know, that's what it's about is really anything is about the journey. Cause it's not even about what it is. Like you take a book,

everyone's striving for that bestseller list. It's not even about that. It's about impacting lives. It's about having one reader who says, Oh my God, you wrote something that made a difference in my life. That's what it's about. And it's like the joy for me, it was the joy of writing. That's the journey. And so it's just think about whatever it is that you're expecting. And can you find some sort of happiness or growth or learning opportunity in every step and every road bump and every challenge to get you there? There's so much power in everything you just said. I hope people rewind and listen back a few times

because I think you're right. When we set an expectation, it's an end result. And we have this picture in mind and anything that falls short or anything that goes left or right when you think straight kind of knocks us off our game. And I think sometimes we miss that some of those things actually might be working for good or might create an outcome that's even better, but we become so attached to the expectation or that result that we miss it. My coach often asks me when I set a goal, what's the experience you're looking for? And I love that because it helps me to get grounded in that journey or in the experience, but not so attached to the thing or the outcome or the result or the, yeah. I love that. And I'll like, even applying that to this book, it was, if I think back, like when I wanted to write it three years ago,

had I written it, then it would not be the same one it is now because I was not ready to be that level of vulnerable. And so it's like, sometimes I always say that sometimes that the universe knows better than us what the right timeline is. Cause we're always rushing. Like I'm not, I'm a person. I am so about instant gratification. I wanted something yesterday.

Like, this is who I am. My husband jokes about it, but it has been like, you know, some, now I look at things and say, well, maybe that's not the right timeline. And the timeline that's a year in the future or six months is the much better one for this journey. And, you know, I think that's when you're a high achiever, when you're an entrepreneur, that's really hard to adopt. And I think that's also a constant reminder of like, or having a coach or having someone tell you, like remind you that just enjoy and trust that process. And that term is, it can be overused, but I mean, it truly means something is just allow yourself to walk that path and not feel

like you have to sprint down that road. I tell myself often be where your feet are. Cause I'm, I often can get out in front of my skis or whatever they expect, you know, like I, I'm like you, I want it done yesterday and want it done. But, um, that be where your feet are be present and trust is easier said than done. Let's talk a little bit about the stop drop and roll framework that you talk about in your book. So I had noticed over the years that when a client would come to me, they would often be stuck in some sort of indecision and they were trying to decide what they needed to do and what steps. And I realized I was always walking each of them through this process. And I didn't even know it at the time. It was just like, all right, like just, I was thinking of it logically. Well,

what do we need to do? Let's figure out first what it is you want. And let's pay attention to what your intuition is telling you, your gut instinct, that inner knowing, that inner voice. And let's turn off all of the chatter in your head, telling you all of the reasons why this is a bad idea. And so this could be applied to any crossroads. Like if someone's in a toxic relationship or in a job that they hate, or they're trying to decide whether to start that business or move across country, like whatever you are, when there's, there's something nagging at you, like you can use this. And so that first step is to really tune into stop and assess, really tune into what it is that you know, that you want, that you've talked yourself out of. And when you get really clear on that, the next step

is to drop the excuses. And this is where most people get hung up because most people will, will live in this middle area forever because they're going to say, I'll do it when I'll do it. When I have more money, when the kids are older, when I lose 10 pounds, like whatever it is, they're going to, they're going to say another time. And so what they're doing is they're putting a time on their dreams, on what they want their vision, because they're saying, you know, it's, it's, um, it's something else has to happen in order for me to go for it. But once they identify that excuse, then they can recognize

it for what it is. And they can say, no, no, I know what this is doing. It's meant to keep me small and safe, and I'm not going to let it stop me. And then the final stage is to roll into action because sometimes we don't need to take huge steps and leaps and you just start the momentum. So you get really clear on what you need to do when, write it down, stick it on a post-it note and say, I will do this when. What smallest action can you take to move forward?

And when you stop, drop and roll through your decisions, you will always win because you have moved out of stagnation. You've no longer allowed the status quo to keep you stuck and things will unfold the way they're supposed to. Like we talked about, maybe not necessarily what you think it's going to end up looking like or that timeframe, but they, but it will absolutely move you forward. And so in 1973, they came up with this stop, drop and roll to extinguish fire because I guess flammable clothing was a thing. And so I thought about, okay, what can I do if not to put the fire up and really to light your

life up and really light up your energy and your excitement for what's happening in your life. And that's where a stop, drop and roll came from. I love everything about that. And I want to reiterate how powerful, and I'm so glad that you said that smallest action, because I think a lot of times we, as women think it needs to be big in order to count. And in my experience, it's one foot in front of the other towards what matters. Right. And so it's not usually big leaps or jumps. It's just one smallest action on top of the other. So I appreciate that you said that. Any tips for facing our uncomfortable truths?

So I think let's use the example of being in a romantic relationship or a marriage. Maybe you recognize that you've been being the good girl or the good spouse, and it's gotten you in a situation where you don't want to be anymore. I'm sure you see this a lot in your work. How do we address or acknowledge this uncomfortable truth? How do we move forward from there? I think, you know, in any relationship, when we start to have conversations or we start to show up in a different way that someone's not used to, it can go one of two ways.

The part, your partner or spouse can welcome it and embrace it and want to hear you and will sit down with you and communicate and have those things and accept it and acknowledge it, or your spouse could potentially reject it. And a lot of times, and if you have like a power struggle in a marriage and you have a lot of conflict, um, you might have that spouse rejected. And then the decision has to be made. If you're on this growth journey, is your spouse coming with you, or is it time to leave them behind? And you know, you don't have, you're supposed to have to be exactly where you are on your personal development journey. They could be a few steps back, you know, and, but they have to be open to it. And if they're not open to it, it becomes really, really hard to stay connected

in a relationship when you have one person looking to expand and questioning and wanting to have these conversations and wanting, um, to take some risks that feel really good. And the other person is not, does not support that it becomes really hard to live in your truth or in your alignment or go for those things. And I have a husband now who is a hundred percent supported every crazy decision or new idea that I've had. And I always, and he'll say, well, it's your vision. I said, but yeah, but I have your support. And so I know if I fall flat on my face, it doesn't matter. And that matters, you know, it makes a difference to have someone who's supporting you and encouraging you. And so when you have that communication and you say to your partner, we need to sit down

because something is not, I have a need that's not being met. And I want to talk about it and how they respond to you is going to tell you a lot. And sometimes you can go to counseling. And I tell people all the time that it's not a lost cause if you have someone who respects you and to be able to go on that journey together. But if you just have someone who does not respect that you have wants and needs and dreams and desires, then you may have a harder decision as to whether you've outgrown them. And we see it all the time because people, people grow in different ways. And especially if you're getting married young and you were still,

you didn't even know who you were. And, you know, that's my situation. I got met my first husband in college. Like I'm not the same person in college that I am now. I was standing on bars in college. I might've been there with you. So what's ironic about that, what's coming up for me is when women recognize that maybe their partner or spouse is not on board with the journey, not supportive, not respectful, not even open, then there's this next potential decision of divorce. And how ironic is it that then the good girl kicks up again, even in that decision, because good girls don't get divorced, right? At least that's what we've been told. And I'm oddly pro-divorce. I know that sounds very strange, but I am so in on the idea of women, especially living their truths and living their purposes. And I see far too many examples where they're in relationships that don't support that or where

they can't do that. So how do you deal with a good girl that comes up that says, you can't do that. You cannot leave this marriage. I, um, I, to comment your pro divorce, I think I'm pro aligned, beautiful, respectful relationships, which sometimes leads to divorce, you know? And if you don't have that, if you can't describe your relationship as that, then it's like, okay, what can you do to fix it? But you don't have to stay in something that, that isn't. So, you know, the, the, this is the, your question is the classic one that most people have men and women actually, um, because the, the good parent is not going to leave their, make their child, uh, a family of divorce or break up the family. And especially if you're the one making that decision.

So if the woman's making the decision, there's so much guilt attached to that. It's like, what am I doing to ruin my kids? And, you know, sidebar, it's not divorce that ruins kids, it's conflict. So you can have an intact marriage. And if there's a ton of conflict in the house, that's going to have the impact on the kids. But we think like, okay, we just have to be the good wife. And when I was going through my first divorce, I had people say to me, why couldn't you just be happy? And I was like, you know, so then that made me question everything. And I almost stayed because I was like, well, why can't I just be happy? This is a me problem. And so it's, you know, that's where you tap into like, okay, what is the good girl? If you stay and do the good girl thing and you stay married, will you be happy? And I always ask people this and especially women, I said, okay,

if your daughter comes to you and said, and she has the exact marriage that you have right now, would you want her to be in it? And when they answer no, then the next question is, well, why is it good enough for you, but not for her? So why are you looking at, you can look at her on the outside and not judge and not, and say it's okay to leave because you're entitled to be happy, but that's not okay for you because we hold ourselves to different standards. So if you kind of remove yourself a little bit from that equation and look at it as if it's your child in this situation, then maybe you can almost make a decision with yourself, your emotions, just a little bit removed from it. I'm so fucking glad

you said that it is. So I often ask myself, what would I want her to do in this situation? Her being my, my daughter. And it's, it helps me because I only ever want the best for her. And if it's so clear to me what I would want for her, then that gives me insight into, to what I want. So it's less about, you know, deciding for her or controlling her. And it's more about giving me that step back. I need to see something a little bit clearer and to decide what's good or not good or right or not right for me in that moment, using that outside perspective. And I think you're dead on. If you ask people, would you want your kids, daughter or son, or whatever gender they identify as to have the relationship that you have? And if the answer is no, then the question

becomes, what do you want to do about it? Because we all learn best by experience and observation. And so we can tell people, our children till we're blue in the face of what a healthy relationship looks and feels like, but they're learning far greater by what they're experiencing on a day-to-day basis. And I think that that's so, so, so important. I could go on for days about that. And I kind of took us off course. I had no intention of asking about divorce, but it sort of went that way. Those are always when it's the best conversations though. There are a couple other things that you talk about in the book, overcoming uncertainty,

rejection. We already talked about expectations, anything else there that you think our listeners should be thinking about that might be getting in the way of their greatness? Yeah. I, rejection's my favorite thing in the world now. So I, cause I shared the story of all the rejections from, from the agents that came in. And now I wear it like a badge of honor because if you're not getting rejected, that means you're actually not putting yourself out there. And so it's like every time something, there's some rejection that comes in, it's like, congratulations, you did something really hard that put yourself in a position to be rejected. And it's not like, uh, this, this dirty word, like we don't talk about it. People it's people have shame around that. And it could be rejections from, from relationships or, you know, and usually like, I feel like men talk about it a little bit bolder and they kind of laugh about the hiccups,

but women don't because we also have this perfectionist syndrome that if we can't do it perfectly, we're not going to do it at all. So, you know, what I would say to your listeners in embrace rejection and then question, actually, what have you done recently that puts you in a position to be rejected? And if it, if you haven't, that means you've been playing it safe for way too long and come up with like, what's that thing, which usually ties into that, that thing that, you know, that inner knowing that thing that you want to go for, but you haven't because you're afraid you have that fear of the unknown and fear of the rejection, but do that at least rack up that first rejection because they get a lot easier because they don't come in forever.

You could, you could have a whole, You could have a whole piece of paper filled with rejections. You just need that one, that one that's not going to give you that rejection and that could change your life. Yeah. And what you get rejected on becomes bigger and bigger over time because like you said, the sting wears off from some of the smaller ones and then you go a little bigger and then the sting wears off from that. And smaller ones and then you go a little bigger and then the sting wears off from that. And, and it's this trajectory you end up on. I remember in a, in my previous career, there was a formula that said, basically for every 10 outreaches you do, you'll get nine no's and one yes. And as you mentioned, I find that the men sort of dealt with rejection a little bit better, not great, but better than some of us women because of perfectionism and things like that. But there was this one guy who became a collector of no's. He counted, his goal was to get 90 no's because he knew the byproduct was the 10 yeses that he needed. And so he like began to chase the nose, celebrate the

nose, get the nose out of the way as fast as possible. So he could get to the yeses and that might've been the most empowering and coolest approach to rejection I'd ever seen. And it took, I'm still not, you know, I don't love rejection all the time when I get it, but that helped switch my framework. And so I'm so glad that you brought that up because it flies in the face of that good girl. Right. Yeah. I mean, even Stephen King on his book on writing talks about that. He, uh, paper wallpapered his wall with all of the rejections he got from publishers. I mean, look at him now, imagine if he quit, imagine if he quit when he got the first 20, he had enough to fill up a whole wall.

So it's, you know, it's, it's everyone, anyone out there who has achieved something great probably has more rejection stories than they actually do success stories, but it's the success that we know. And we remember, and that sticks. A thousand percent. There are so, so many stories of that. Renee, I have 1 million more questions I could ask you, but we are out of time. So I want to make sure that people first and foremost, go out there and pre-order your book,

She Who Wins. You can find it on Amazon. It releases on September 5th, but pre-order it now. And once you get your hands on it, definitely read it and then rate and write a review on Amazon. These things make a big difference. Also, you can go to Ms. Renee Bauer, where you can find a free quiz to find out if your inner good girl is derailing you. And Renee, you mentioned you have a special offer for our listeners. So I want to kick that over to you. I do. I absolutely love supporting other authors and I would be absolutely honored to bundle my book with your book for five of your listeners. And I will send them a copy of each of our books. So all you have

to do is just connect with me on Instagram is probably the best place. Connect with me on Instagram at Ms. Renee Bauer, send me a DM, say that you listened to this episode and I will send Nicole's book as in my book out to you for free. I love that offer. Thank you, Renee, for supporting me and listeners get on that ASAP. Okay. Thank you for your time. Best of luck with book launch and anything we can be doing to support.

Let us know. Thank you so much. All right. I'm going to close us out with Renee's words instead of mine. She says this, there is a fierce woman fighting to get out. She is you. For every woman who is told to smile, to quiet down and to shrink themselves in the smallest version of themselves.

For every woman who is struggling to make a life altering decision or wondering what's next. For every woman who thinks that this is as good as it gets for every woman who has ever felt like there has to be more. And for every woman who feels like she doesn't have the right to complain or who feels selfish for even questioning her happiness. There is a good girl within who is ready to become that fierce woman who's fighting to get out. And you guessed it. I think that pretty much sums up doing woman's work.