This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 172 / Boomers to Gen Z - Understanding Generational Differences with Kim Lear

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

On today’s episode of TIWW, we’re going to explore some of the generational differences that impact our work – as women, but mostly as humans of different generations who are living and working together. And I couldn’t possibly cover this topic without bringing in THE expert, Kim Lear. Kim is a writer, researcher, and the founder of Inlay Insights. Recently named “one of today's best speakers,” by Meetings and Conventions Magazine, Kim is known for skillfully weaving eye-opening statistics, insightful stories, and relevant case studies with some of the most renowned companies in the world. In addition to speaking, Kim was head of research on the book Gen Z @ Work and the writer of the popular Substack, Kids These Days. She has been featured on NPR and national publications such as The Wall Street Journal, The Huffington Post, USA Today, and TIME magazine. We can’t practice empathy and curiosity without considering the time and the way in which we grew up, the experiences that shaped us, and the beliefs and definitions that existed when we were learning about the world and our place in it.  Ask yourself, if I were in their shoes, would I see this differently? Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Connect with Kim and Resources: Website:  https://inlayinsights.com/ Subscribe to Substack, “Kids These Days”: https://kimlear.substack.com/ Follow Kim on IG: @Kim_Lear Follow Kim on LI: @kimberlylear 

I am Nicole Kalil, and you are listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in today's day and age. If you're a longtime listener, you know that I believe you are the decider and that our gender should not be the only or even primary consideration of what it means for you to be living a full, authentic, and meaningful life. And we'll all likely each have different definitions, different ways of living that successful and fulfilling life, regardless of our gender. So we've spent a lot of time, almost four years in fact, redefining woman's work by focusing on what's possible when we trust ourselves firmly and boldly. But if we're redefining something,

that must mean there's an initial, original, or former definition of it. I chose to title this podcast, This Is Woman's Work, as sort of a tongue-in-cheek way of giving the finger to that old definition and its assumptions and limitations that have never really resonated with me because they didn't have to, because I've had more options available to me and the generation in which I live made that all possible.

We've come a long way over many generations, and yet we still have work to do. All that to say, women's work is an evolving thing, and each generation likely has wildly different experiences and perspectives, and we'd be silly not to acknowledge that. So on today's episode of This is Woman's Work, we're going to explore some of the generational differences that impact our work as women, but mostly as humans of different generations who are living and working together. And I couldn't possibly talk about generational change or differences without bringing in the expert, Kim Lear. Kim is a writer, researcher, and founder of Inlay Insights. Recently named one of today's best speakers by Meetings and Conventions magazine, Kim is known for skillfully

weaving eye-opening statistics, insightful stories, and relevant case studies with some of the most renowned companies in the world. In addition to speaking, Kim was the head of research on the book Gen Z at Work and the writer of the popular substack Kids These Days. She has been featured on NPR and national publications such as the Wall Street Journal, the Huffington Post, USA Today and Time magazine. So in short, Kim knows what she's talking about. So Kim, thank you for joining me. And I hope you're prepared to be peppered with questions because I have a page full of them. I can't wait. Thanks for having me.

My pleasure. Okay. Before we dive into that never ending list of questions, can you start by providing maybe a little bit of an overview of the different generations that are living together today? Yes. Starting at the ground level really quickly, baby boomers born roughly 1946 to 1964. So they're mostly in their 60s and 70s now. Gen X born 1965 to 1979. Millennials born roughly 1980 to 1995. And then Gen Z, 96 to 2010-ish. Those dates will probably change. I always want to give a little bit of the academic background to this topic because

it's not like anyone goes to sleep on December 31st of one year and someone wakes up January 1st of another year and is a different species. So what we're actually looking at is these events and conditions during our formative years. And in sociology, formative years, roughly our teenage years into young adulthood. And it's during this time in brain development where we're coming to terms with the world around us. So what's happening in the world at that time, it has a lasting impact on how we view things like gender, marriage, work, social justice, politics. And it's this time in brain development where teenage angst comes from. So perhaps your whole life, your parents tell you to think a certain way or act a certain way or vote a certain way. You reach a stage, you decide you're going to do it your own way. And it's that period of

brain development that we look at how these shared experiences result in behavioral patterns and consumer trends. So this isn't, you know, the way that I approach this is it's not everyone born between this state and this state is this, but we're looking at observable change in longitudinal studies. You know, we're trying to understand why we can do something today and it's totally acceptable, but if we did it 20 years ago, it would have been wildly taboo. And so I think your intro just nailed it, which is there are things that you were able to do as a woman based on when you were born and the culture that you were born into and what was allowed and what was subversive and even the legalities of it, right? And so that's part of what we look at is you come into the world in a moment in time, in history, and how does that shape who you are? And so am I understanding this right in that

some of these bigger events that impact the way we see the world are what sort of delineates one generation from another? So for example, 9-11 or is that? Yes. I mean, so, so there's these, there's that like collective memory piece of it, which is like what, what is shared, what creates nostalgia basically. Right. And so there's that component of it. One of the examples that I always give, you know, in public speaking is, is around NASA. And so, you know, if I go into a baby boomer focus group and I say, talk to me about your first memory of NASA, most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time they still will tell me about landing on the moon and what that moment was like, the unbelievable capability

of American institutions, winning the space race, being taught that if you have the right technology, if you work hard enough, the sky's the limit, anything is possible. And then if I walk next door to a Gen X focus group and I asked Gen Xers the same question, what is your first memory of NASA? Many of them talk about the Challenger and they watched it in school. There was a teacher on that shuttle. They remember that exactly. And they'll still say to me, you know, if we could have trusted anyone, we could have trusted the geniuses at NASA, but we were let down. It was a moment of disappointment. So there are these kind of moments of generational juxtaposition that we look at. So there's part of it is that collective memory. And then part of it is technological changes, the political

environment, the geopolitical environment, healthcare innovations. So for all of the super type A listeners, this is a social science. You sort of have to bend with me a little bit, but we're trying to kind of capture these moments in time that have this shared reality in certain ways and then study how that evolves. I feel like it's a topic, a lot like gender, that sounds simple, but is wildly complex. Okay. So you mentioned the different generations. Let's talk a little bit about some of the beliefs or stereotypes we have that are either accurate or inaccurate about each of those generations. I'll start with baby boomers, which is, we just live in a really ageist society. And I see this in every industry that I work in.

And I think it impacts older people across the board. But of course, there is significant research on some of the unique effects of ageism on older women. But I think that we do just have this like cultural narrative that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, that older people are completely stuck in their ways. I think this is what pushes a lot of the ageism that we see in action. And that's just not what we saw with baby boomers. And they never really showed the same aging or retirement trends that we saw with their traditionalist parents. There's this young at heart spirit, which we don't have time to go into, but there's a lot of kind of generational reasons for this young at heart spirit, but rapid tech adoption, which we looked at even before the

pandemic and then during the pandemic that accelerated dramatically. When we look at where baby boomers moved to in retirement, it used to be that places like Palm Beach and Palm Springs were fighting for high-end retirement dollars. And now they're competing with Austin, Texas and Raleigh, Durham. I see some movement to Madison, Wisconsin, as people say that they want to retire to places with more walkability, better art, better food, more access to higher education. And so I think that there's something going on in this world of aging where our ideas about what it means to age and what is actually happening are so different. And if there's a book that I could recommend to listeners, Mary Pfeiffer, who I think is just one of the most remarkable psychologists. Some of you might know her work

from Reviving Ophelia, which is about female adolescence, but she wrote a book called Women Row North, which is the story of transformation and how women age. And it's such a beautiful book, but that's, you know, I think unique to women talking about that. Gen X, I mean, so many different, you know, the slackers, you know, a lot of different things, which of course, like most stereotypes did not end up being true. But I think something to know about Gen Xers, especially as we're seeing their ascension into the C-suite, is the impacts of youthful skepticism and how that translated into this really honest, direct, unfiltered style of communication at home and in the workplace. So as Gen Xers stepped into the C-suite, we started measuring these trends of radical candor, hyper-transparency.

So I think that will have long legs. I think there will be a lot of ripple effects to how Gen Xers are leading. Millennials, I think one of the most interesting trends, so I guess I'm moving away from stereotypes, but millennial family structures, a rise of egalitarian marriages and a rise of dual income households. And that's really shifted the role of men and women at home and at work. And as women started contributing more financially to the home front, men started contributing more domestically. So there's a lot of changes that have gone on with millennial women, millennial mothers in particular. But a lot of that is because of this changing expectation of young fathers.

And so I think there's things we can dig into there, but I would say that is an interesting trend that has had a lot of impacts. Gen Z, I mean, where do we start? We're just in like the big moment right now of the, you know, so many stereotypes being created. I think one that, you know, the tech obsession, things like that, we could talk all day about the impacts of technology during such a porous time of brain development. But I do think that one of the stereotypes is that young people are incapable of really developing these meaningful in-person relationships that they don't want in-person work, you know, that type of thing. And that just is not true.

And we could go into a lot of details on that. I mean, I think dating is an easy place to just look at of this overwhelming preference for meeting in person. So many companies have been started and gatherings have been created to create more opportunities for serendipitous connection. Young people overwhelmingly want an in-person work experience. They don't want their time policed the way that we were accustomed to in 2019, where like you're taking PTO to go to a 30 minute dentist appointment, but that being together, creating a sense of camaraderie, pushing the same boulder over the same hill. I mean, that is just, and learning. I mean, that hunger for real learning

is so central to the new generation coming in. And I think that that's a misunderstanding and a missed opportunity. Thank you for going through that. That was super helpful. And then my brain goes to if you work at a company or you're a leader or a mentor or are trying to create a work culture, what might we want to consider or be thinking about so that we can meet all of the different generations and create something that works for everyone? Yeah, a few things. I think one is this topic of generations, I believe is most useful in helping us, especially for people who are leading others to think more expansively, like to ask ourselves questions like, if I was born into a different

time, would I see this differently? And I think that that question helps in all matters of diversity, right? Asking if I were born into a different gender, into a different color, into a different socioeconomic background, would I see this differently? And so I think just even for leaders, having that question be part of the way that they exist in the world is valuable. And then I think the more we can understand how generational hazing plays into our relationships, the easier it is to squash. And what I mean by generational hazing is this idea that you cannot have what I have unless you go through exactly what I went through. And I see this in every organization I work in and it's never intentional. And to me,

it always makes sense. And because I know most of your listeners are women, I'll use that example, which is if I am in a focus group with C-suite women who are in their 60s and they talk to me about their road, that was a very difficult road. It was a lot of, it was a lot of Miss Dance recitals, a lot of Miss T-ball games. It was sacrificing oftentimes many different relationships. It was just kind of taking some of the, you know, harassment and things like that, that were like part of a lot of work cultures in the 1980s, right? And it was working in a very specific way that was not really created for them. So tons of sacrifices, so many obstacles.

And so I can understand from their perspective when they look down the line where there's, it's a combination of I'm glad, right? Like I paved the way for some of this. I fought for some of this so that the lives of the women who are younger than me, they didn't have to go through all of this, but it's, there is something still bittersweet about it. And I think sometimes when we don't acknowledge it or think of ways to get past it, that's

when we put up roadblocks that don't need to be there because we get stuck in this mindset of you can't have the success that I have unless you go through what I went through. So I think even just having those two, that question of if I were born into a different time, would I see this differently combined with this awareness around how generational hazing impacts our policies, our communication, our relationships, bringing those things to the forefront can help in a lot of unexpected ways. There are so many powerful things in everything that you just said. And empathy has been a big word of mine for the year. And I love that question. Would I see this differently if I

were born in that time or during those, you know, during those experiences, had I experienced what this person experienced. And the example of the older generation of women, I experienced that too. It is that bittersweet. Of course, they want it to be better. And sometimes I think they look at the younger generation and are like, you know, you're taking it way too far and it's far too easy for you. And, and, you know, you can kind of see it from both ways. Yeah, absolutely. I know your focus is

mostly on generational differences, but I have to imagine gender comes out and you've, and you've mentioned a few things. How do you see women evolving over the generations? Is it rapidly? Is it slowly? Is it in the ways we expect? Is it different? I feel like something that has made this a reason why I feel very fortunate to be able to study this is because what keeps it exciting is that I feel like nothing is ever what I expect. I'm like, yes, like the next logical iteration of this would be X, Y, and Z. And then it like never is. So, um, you know, I try to look at the data and the emerging trends as objectively as possible. So to not really have me and my preferences involved in it. And so when I look at how, you know, changes in, you know look at your parents and you make these decisions of what do I want to bring forward there and what do I really want to change?

And so with the newest generation coming into the workforce, I think there's been some interesting trends. I think for some of them, they saw their moms really try to do it all and they're like, no, thank you. Or they are maybe really questioning what that would look like for them, what those sacrifices might be for them. So I think that that is a fascinating ongoing conversation that's connected to this question of like, what am I willing to sacrifice for my job? And that'll be interesting. I think that Gen Z's collective answer to that is going to dictate a lot of what we see over the next five to 10 years. I think another interesting piece is looking at some of the differences that we're seeing between young men and young women,

where right now young women, they're the majority of PhD holders, the majority of graduate degree holders, the majority of undergrad students, 70% of high school valedictorians are young women. And again, I look at it objectively. So sometimes I give that set of data and some listeners are like, oh my gosh, this is a crisis. Some listeners are like, yay. And I just, this is what it is. But something that has happened is that there are these mismatches

in the marriage market, which has been studied pretty thoroughly academically, is that statistically women are less likely than men to quote unquote, marry down in educational attainment. So I think that is an interesting component that young women are grappling with in a way that older generations of women were not, is that is this, these mismatches and kind of trying to figure out for young women, what partnership looks like then, what marriage looks like then, what they're looking for in those relationships. And those relationships then inevitably end up dictating a lot of other trends that we see. So I don't know if I answered it exactly like the evolution, but I do, but

I almost look at it less as an evolution as more of like this snapshot in time. What is this young generation? What cards were they dealt? And what does that mean? How are those cards different or the same from the ones that I was dealt, the ones you were dealt, the way previous generations were dealt? So I think those are some of the differences that I'm tracking the most closely. So I know you have daughters as well. And so I think maybe the listener, at least the one that knows me, is probably thinking that I'm like, yes, 70% valedictorians and all the stats that are supporting that women are going for their goals and are highly educated and have all this potential. And I'm hoping that there is a trend of young women accessing their confidence at a much higher level than in past

times. But I do sometimes question, because I don't advocate for women at the expense of men or any other gender, I do wonder, is there a potential over-rotation? And that leads to my next question. As you look at these snapshots or what I call an evolution, how is this impacting other genders? Yeah, it's well, I don't want to make this episode like depressing. So I'll go into other stuff. It's OK. We can figure out our depression.

We just need a straight fact. So I'll give you kind of the data, which is, you know, Richard Reeves is the writer who I think has done the most comprehensive look into boyhood and manhood and masculinity in our modern era. young men are grappling with some of the interventions that were placed in the public school system to help young girls get interested in STEM and things like that. Those same interventions really did not work for young boys. And so there is a little bit of a crisis on this road to manhood around what does that mean? Like who are the role models? Who are we trying to emulate? And femininity and masculinity, they exist on different sides of the same coin. So when one changes, the other one starts to evolve as well. And I think that

right now for boyhood and for manhood and for masculinity, they're in that stage of the invention where it's not just questions of what best suits me as a man, let's say, but it's also like, what does culture need? What benefits families or what benefits society? So there's that balancing act. But change always leads us somewhere and we course correct when we need to. I think that's something remarkable about the human species is that we have that ability to be like, wait, is this the right path? Or how do we get to a place of kind of equilibrium? So I don't think that the remarkable success of young women today, I don't believe that it's been at the expense of young men. I think that young men are in some ways on their own journey of discovering modern day

manhood and masculinity and how that can be fulfilling for themselves, for their partners, for families, and for society. Well, that doesn't sound at all depressing to me. That sounds incredibly empowering and lovely. I know it's new and change can always be a little bit scary, but yeah, that, that was pretty powerful. Okay. Kim, I have to ask you, I know your work is a lot about the generational differences at work. So as we, you know, had COVID-19 and the great resignation and all sorts of things like that have happened lately that I think really impact work cultures at a high level. Any thoughts? You mentioned earlier the work from home dilemma. Any thoughts or things that we

should be mindful of as we think about the generations at work? Yeah. Something that is generational is in this hybrid work environment, I think the best report that I've seen come out is it was a joint effort between University of Iowa, Harvard University, and the New York Federal Reserve. And essentially in this paper, what they found is that senior workers, so this is kind of a generational piece of it, they are more productive at home. So they have built up their reputational capital. They know what they're doing. They're in kind of an execution phase of their career. And so they can get it done. It has been very hard to create meaningful mentorship

and true growth and development for young workers through a screen. And so something just for the listeners who are in leadership positions is leaders are in a bit of a tough spot right now where you may have to sacrifice some older worker productivity for younger worker growth. And in this, like bringing back into the office, it's been interesting because I know that the common narrative is like young people don't want to come in. Like they refuse to come in. And maybe at another time we can go into some of the details on what that looks like. But I will say that like on the ground with a lot of my clients, they absolutely cannot get their older workers to come in. For those of you who are calling in from New York, half of the executive team lives in Florida.

They're in Palm Beach, so they're definitely not coming in. And younger workers, the reason that they want to come in is for access to senior workers. That's why they don't want the blind leading the blind. They want to come in to be seen, to impress you, to learn all those things. And so I think that that's just an interesting piece to look at as we are still trying to figure out the best ways to leverage a hybrid workforce. other one is bringing people together in a way that is more experiential and more intentional is going to become increasingly important. And I think some of the trepidation for some workers in coming back to the office is that that initial re-entrance was a little clunky. Like I did some, you know, for some of my clients, when we were back together for the first time, you know, first big meeting, we were like in a windowless conference room having a really tactical conversation when I think there was a real

moment there to just put the nail in the coffin of the 2019 world of work and re-enter people in a new world of work, which that is the truth. And so, yeah, I think thinking through when we are all together in person, what are we creating there so that people can develop organic relationships, create inside jokes with one another, feel this connection, create that sense of culture. And I think the leaders who can do that, I mean, I have seen some leaders create more culture in four days than other leaders have created in four years. So there's a way to do it when we really double down on the humanity of what it means to be in person. I find all of this fascinating and I can personally attest to, you know, that I don't know very many people who are interested in going back to death by meeting.

But I know almost everybody is interested in meaningful connection, collaboration, and it's just going to look a little bit differently. And I think as a Gen Xer, I think every generation, you tell me if I'm wrong, has some degree of interest and commitment to impact. And that might show up a little bit differently. But I know I might not want to go into the office, but I know if I can make a difference and impact the younger generation, I'd be, and it's going to be done in a meaningful, not waste of my time way. I'd be more than happy to. So I wonder, you know, if there is opportunity

in that realization, because I think a lot of the older generation thinks the younger generation wants nothing to do with being in the office or learning or growing in that way. No, I agree. And I do think, you know, for those of you who have mentees, for those of you who have kids, I think the faster that you can get the young people who you care about in your life to be really good at asking questions, that's always a skill, right? That, that is just always a skill. But I think in this moment where people are genuinely really hungry for connections and they want to come together, it is a moment of like the person with the best question will win. Like they're the ones who will get faster career trajectories. They're the ones

who are more likely to be mentored. And so, you know, it is those big questions of, if you knew then what you know now, what would you have done differently? What are you most proud of? But just some of these questions that create a real opening for relationship building. Kim, I could talk to you all day long, but I know we're out

of time. Thank you. Again, fascinating and so, so, so important. If you're listening and you need to, like I do, know more about Kim and her work, you can visit her website, inlayinsights.com. We're going to put it in show notes along with the way to subscribe to her Substack newsletter. It's called Kids These Days and it's awesome. So definitely subscribe to that. Kim, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. Okay.

I have been committed to practicing empathy and curiosity and will likely make those my words or my focus for the new year as well. And we can't practice empathy and curiosity without considering the time and the ways. And we can't practice empathy and curiosity without considering the time and the ways in which we grew up, the experiences that shaped us, and the beliefs and definitions that existed when we were learning about the world and our place in it. If I were in their shoes, would I see this differently? And I might not be a fan of the 1950s definition of woman's

work, and I clearly wouldn't have fit in with the silent generation and definitely would have been burned at the stake if I lived in 1690s Massachusetts instead of 2020s. But I really have no idea who I would have been and what I would have believed had I lived during those times and had that generation shaped me. How we see the world, how we see each other is complex. And yet here we are all living and working together. And I'd submit to you that we all have something to learn from each other. Strong work ethic and staying young at heart from those boomers.

Independence and unfiltered communication from Gen Xers, impact and the changing expectations of parents from the millennials, and new ways to connect and a hunger for learning from Gen Z. We have the opportunity to innovate and collaborate with each other together because empathy, curiosity, and collaboration can all be considered woman's work.