This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 196 / Energizing Your Team Through Radical Empathy with Erin Diehl

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Empathy is hard. It requires deep courage, extreme emotional intelligence, maturity, and a commitment to learning and growing. Like most things, the best place to start is where your feet are. With your family, your friends, your colleagues, and your community. So, today, we’re going to talk about how empathy impacts you at work, with your team – yes, as leaders, which most of us are whether or not our title says so – and also as members of a team. I’ve asked Erin Diehl to be our guest. Known as Erin “Big” Diehl, she’s a Business Improv Edutainer, Failfluencer, and Professional Zoombie. Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin created Improve It!, a unique professional development company rooted in improv comedy, that pushes leaders and teams to laugh, learn, play, and grow. She is the proud host of The improve it! Podcast, a fellow Top 1% Global Podcast, and is the first time author of the Amazon Best Seller Top New Release: I See You! A Leader’s Guide to Energizing Your Team Through Radical Empathy. Among her many accolades, and there are many, Erin is most proud of successfully coercing over 35,000 professionals to do the chicken dance. Empathy works best when it’s a two-way street, for sure, but you are in charge of only one person’s choices – and that’s your own. As leaders, in business, in life, in our families and our communities – we have an opportunity to choose empathy. People learn best by experience and observation, so this is how we change our cultures, environments, and even the world. Connect with Erin: Website: www.itserindiehl.com  Book: I See You! Podcast: https://www.learntoimproveit.com/podcast LI: linkedin.com/in/erindiehl IG: @itserindiehl Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Thanks to our This Is Woman’s Work Sponsor: To get the kids you love their very own Zenimal head to zenimals.com/NICOLEMKALIL and use my code NICOLEMKALIL to save 10% off!  

I'm JJ Khalil and my mom asked me to tell you about my Zenimal and why I love it. It helps me meditate and fall asleep at night and it reminds me that I'm a good kid. I use my Zenimal every day and take it with me when I go on trips. I think any kid you love would like a Zenimal too. If your kids annoy you sometimes and you lose patience, you could use one too. If you want to buy a Zenimal, you you can go to xenimals.com and use the code NICOLEMCALIL to get 10% off. I am Nicole Calil and you're tuning into the This Is Woman's Work podcast where together

we're redefining what it means to be doing woman's work with you as the decider. If you identify as a woman and you're doing whatever feels true and right and authentic to you, well, then you're doing woman's work. No gender expectations, no shoulds or supposed tos, no judgment. Well, unless you're being an asshole, then I have lots of judgment. And while the topic we're covering today is often considered to be a feminine trait, I will kick us off by saying that I see it as completely gender neutral because we all can be this and we all benefit from being and experiencing it. I'm talking about empathy, our ability to understand, be mindful of, and share the feelings of another person. My opinion is if you look at most of the conflict, discord,

division, or disagreement that exists today, you'll find that the thing that's missing is empathy. We're so quick to shout out our opinions or aggressively type them on social media. So quick to think that what we believe based on our experiences makes those beliefs fact or true or right instead of what they actually are, which is our perspective, interpretation and our opinion. And let me be clear, confidence isn't digging your heels in and believing that you know the answer. That's arrogance. And arrogance is always a mask for a whole host of insecurities. Confidence is being

curious, being open-minded, listening, and empathizing. Confidence is trusting yourself to be willing to change your mind in the face of new information. And yes, I do have lots of judgment about people behaving like assholes, and being an asshole is completely gender neutral for me. But even that is likely me missing an opportunity for empathy. Empathy is hard. It requires deep courage, extreme emotional intelligence and maturity, a commitment to learning and growing, which is why I still have lots of work to do, as do most of us.

So like most things, the best place to start, to learn, and to grow is where your feet are, with your family, your friends, your colleagues, and your community. Today, we're going to talk about how empathy impacts you, specifically at work with your team. Yes, as leaders, which most of us are, whether or not our title says so, but also as members of a team. I've asked Erin Deal to be our guest, known as Erin Big Deal, which is awesome. I love that. She's a business improv edutainer, fail fluencer, and professional Zoombie, which I had to ask her what that meant. And that meant being on Zoom all the time, which we all can relate to. So through a series of unrelated dares, Erin created Improve It, a unique professional development company rooted in improv comedy that pushes leaders and teams to laugh, learn, play, and grow. She's the proud host of the Improve It podcast, a fellow top 1% global podcast, and is the

first time author of the Amazon bestseller and top new release, I See You, a leader's guide to energizing your team through radical empathy. Among her many accolades, and there are many, Erin is most proud of successfully coercing over 35,000 professionals to do the chicken dance. Erin, thank you for being here. And I need to start with what must be a pretty basic question, but how does empathy show up or impact us at work? It seems like a place we'd be less inclined to think about empathy as opposed to like with our families or friends. So how does empathy show up at work? Yes. Okay. First of all, love the introduction. Thank you so much. And I will tell you this. I have two experiences in my own leadership journey and my own journey

to becoming a leader and in my own path as being led. The first one was through a person I call Chad, quote unquote, okay? And Chad would do anything to climb the corporate ladder. And Chad would literally go rung by rung up that ladder, do whatever it takes to go up that corporate ladder and not care who or what he stepped on to do it. He just wanted to climb. And if his team was along for the ride, great. But Chad didn't really care about my well-being or my team's well-being. He didn't care about what we were actually doing behind the work. He just cared about the work. I stayed in that job for a year and a half. I lost my soul. I lost my dignity. I lost my will to celebrate life. I've always found joy in life, but that job really sucked my soul dry. And from that job, I was

plucked to another leader named Jennifer D'Angelo, who was less concerned about climbing the corporate ladder, but she was concerned about climbing the ladder of empathy. And she literally dug that ladder into the ground and said, I'm going to pull you up and I'm going to show you your strengths. And I'm going to see you as the human being, not the human doing the work. And I stayed in that job. It was, I never thought I would do this as a career. It was business development at a recruiting firm, which when you say door slammed in your face, they were literally in my nose on a day-to-day basis. But I stayed in that job for five years because of Jen's leadership, because of her ability to see me as the human being, not the human doing, she loved that

I had work activities outside or activities outside of work. She celebrated them. She supported me, which, as you know, is improv comedy. She came to so many of my shows. And then when I told her about the idea to start my own business, she was my biggest cheerleader and she got me my very first client, which was United Airlines, which was a client at our recruiting firm. And she still to this day, 10 years later, is one of my biggest cheerleaders and great friends because her empathy

rubbed off on me. And her empathy is such an example and a case study for myself as a leader. And I find myself doing things that she did for my own team. So it's just this ripple effect. I think we all have had a Chad in our life. I call him Dick, short for Richard. But Dick might be a man or a woman or any gender. It's more of a behavior. And God, I think we all know what it's like to lose things at our job, like our will to live. It's just awful when you hate what you're doing and who you're doing it with. Okay. So let's talk about how empathy energizes a team. You gave a personal example, but through your work, how does empathy impact the team as a whole? Yeah. So when you feel seen, heard, and valued, you want to show up more. In improv, we use something called yes and,

which is a way to show empathy. It is an example of yes and would be, you're my boss, Nicole, and I come to you and I say, okay, I've got this idea for an employee party. And you look at me and you're like, you know what, Erin, I don't know if we have time this quarter, but put some time on my calendar and we'll talk about it for next quarter. You're not saying yes, essentially, but you're just saying thank you for this idea. I see you. I acknowledge you. Through yes and, through this idea of being seen and heard and valued, it makes people want to show up more. I showed up more for Jen. Employees show up more for people who see them and hear them and appreciate their voice

at the table. And when you show up more, productivity rises. When your productivity rises, not only the individual, but the organization thrives. And it's this, again, this motivational behind the scenes sort of pie in the sky concept that's easier said than done. Because we've all, like you said, have chads or dicks in our lives. I really like to say dicks. Okay. Awesome. It feels really good. It feels so good. Like we don't want to show up for them because they don't show up for us. So it takes a really strong, first, I think it takes a really strong sense of self-love in order to give empathy. So you can't really give to somebody unless your cup is full, right?

That whole cliche, put your oxygen mask on first. You can't fill from an empty tea kettle. You can't pour into people's cups if your tea kettle is not full. All of those cliches. What they're really meaning is you have to fill yourself up first in order to have more to give. And then once you are at that place of giving, it's just this reciprocal magnetic attraction that you leave people feeling.

And that's really why I stayed with Jen, just to give a concrete example on my own life. She made me feel powerful. And I tell her she created the monster that left because she showed me that I could be the highest version of me possible. So in the concept of yes and, you know, there's that expression, there's no such thing as a bad idea. I got to tell you, I don't buy into that. I do think there are bad ideas. Yeah. Yeah. So could you give us an example of yes and when somebody comes with an idea that is not one you're going to follow through on or not one that you want to talk about next quarter, how could we encourage the person and practice empathy without going down the rabbit hole of entertaining something that's just not going to work? Totally. Okay. Can I do an activity

with you, Nicole? Are you open to it? Okay. So this is something, this is a tangible takeaway. I want everybody to listen and just see how we do it. And then you can take this back and apply it to your teams. So, okay. Let's do a little role play. So let's say I am your manager and you are coming to me with an idea for a summer bash. Okay. So give me an idea and I'm going to know because you first. Okay. So what's your idea? So I think the entire team of 200 people should fly to Disney world and be there for an eight day vacation to celebrate the success of the team. Ooh, Disney world. That is not the happiest place on earth. Okay. I'm not feeling that one. But if you have more ideas, I'm willing to discuss. Okay. So then let's do this again,

but I'm going to give you a yes, but answer. Yes, but eight days is a really long time. Maybe we should think about shortening it, putting together a tighter budget. We are on a tight budget, Nicole. So yes, but I think the eight ideas is a stretch. Okay. This time I'm going to yes and you, and I'll show you how that works. I really love where your head is at. I think this is a fantastic idea. However, I think there is another way we could do this. Maybe it's a Disney theme party, and we have it here in the office and we have, you know, different things set up around the office that are Disney related. We have step-in repeats where you can take pictures with Minnie and Mickey. What do you think about

that? So great demonstration. And is there something too about just acknowledging somebody's courage to bring an idea, even if it's a bad one? Yeah. Hey, I love that you are thinking about this. I love that you had the courage to bring it to me. The Disney theme, like how do we take this idea? Or like saying, okay, here are the limitations that exist. We don't have the budget for 200 people at Disney, eight days is a long time. Could you take that and keep brainstorming? I guess my question is, because you did do that really well

and like, is there a place for us to say, bad idea, but keep bringing them. Yeah. So, and that is why, and I didn't really debrief this with you. That is why I showed you those three examples in the no, because I'm just squashing your idea. I'm that fun vacuum. I'm not giving you anywhere else to go. I'm just shutting you down. And as the person coming up with the idea, you're most likely not going to come to me with another idea because your idea felt squashed, right? Totally. And then the yes mate or the yes, but we always say is like no dressed up in like a fancy tuxedo. It's like, yes, I hear you, but there's caveat. You're still like, and you're probably in that scenario, less likely again to come back with another idea. Yeah. I felt almost more deflated in that one.

Yeah. You know what? You're right. It was like dressed up. It felt like I was being condescended to almost. Yeah. And that it's the but, it's the but that kills it, right? And then the and is a conversation starter. So, you know, and I could have said that. Thank you for bringing this to the table. That's what yes and really is. It's an acknowledgement of that idea. And then I bring a brick, you bring a brick, and I ask you, you know, what do you think about that?

So maybe you like, you didn't love my step and repeat. You're like, what if we did a table with all Mickey Mouse pancakes? And I was like, yes. And then let's do this. And yes, and let's do this. So you start building this house essentially together. You're not going to take every idea, but instead of just deflating you, I'm adding to your idea by acknowledging it.

And I'm not necessarily agreeing with it. I'm adding to your idea by acknowledging it. And I'm not necessarily agreeing with it. I'm just adding to it. So my world is the yes and. I live in this world. This is how my company works. My husband works in financial services. And it's like, this is not the way of the world. And I understand that. And I've been a part of a ton of associations where I have had to step in and say, listen, here's how we're going to brainstorm. We're going to use the S.A.N. or we're not going to get anywhere. So there are bad ideas and they do. There are so they're horrible ideas, but it's the idea of allowing that person to continue to bring them because you and I both have always, I can't say I've sat here and had a million great ideas. I've had a ton of bad ideas, you know, but if they were squashed, I would probably keep, I would probably keep all of my ideas to myself. Yes. So that's

what I think is so not just fascinating, but so empowering about this is the support of just keep bringing the ideas. And I would venture a guess that any successful person we know has had the experience of coming up with their best ideas from a really bad idea, right? Like sometimes the worst starting point idea is what leads you to the best one. So creating the opportunity and the space for that is incredible. Okay. So I'm going to ask this a little bit later, but I would imagine having empathy with some people is so much easier than having empathy with others. As a starting point, how do we as individuals work on or tactically develop our own empathy? Love this.

Okay. And I got another act. I'm filled with these activities because this is what I do, but I got an activity because this is one from the book. And I said this in the book, if you take away any activity, take this one and I'm going to give it to you because it's very simple. So could you tell me, Nicole, a challenge that you're facing right now? What is something that you're really struggling

with professionally? Getting people to rate and review the podcast and the book. Okay. So I'm here listening to you. Let's say that we're peers, okay? Or it could be any type of relationship. So my job now in this forced activity is to repeat back to you exactly what you said, but in first person, as if I'm saying it. My biggest challenge right now is getting people to rate and review the podcast and the book. It's hard and you feel like you're being vulnerable, asking people all the time. And you feel like you repeat it over and over and it doesn't happen. And that's hard. And it's probably a little demeaning, but your work is helping people. And so right there, you can do this with a teammate. You

could do this direct report, report, partner, spouse, whatever. I could have just heard you and we could have kept the conversation going. And I can say, oh, I feel the same way too. Right. But because I sat here and I thought about it, I'm a podcast host. I have a book. And I was like, man, when I said that in the first person, I really felt you. And then I kept going a little bit because I was like, man, when I said that in the first person, I really felt you. And then I kept going a little bit because I was like, man, I get it. It's vulnerable. It's annoying.

I annoy myself. And so it just brings that full circle because in my opinion, empathy is more than just stepping in somebody's shoes. It's putting on their Nike dunks, walking around in it for a day, getting them dirty, you know, and thinking about that human being. And that's, I think, what happens in a lot of professional settings is we don't think about the person beyond the work. Like my Chad Dick scenario. They were just thinking about when's my PowerPoint presentation going to get to me, Erin? Why isn't it here? And they weren't thinking about, oh, well, maybe Erin's having a tough time because she has some family

stuff going on. Or there's just this disconnect when we get into a professional setting that we lose. And so that activity, putting yourself in the first person of the person that you're talking to, sitting face to face with them and trying this is really, really interesting. I love the putting yourself in the first person because that's my experience with empathy. It's not sympathy. It's not feeling bad for somebody else. It's literally putting yourself in their shoes or trying to understand from their perspective. So as an example, I'm a busy working woman with a family with so many things on my to-do list. And it's hard enough to even find the time to listen to a podcast, but I do because I find value here

and I have the best of intentions and I want to review and rate it, but I just keep forgetting. Like there's too much going on. It's like when I put myself in that perspective, I completely get it. Yeah. I got chills, man, when you just did that. And I hate when people say that, like, but I for real did because when, you know, as people who are high achieving people, which I'm sure a lot of people here are listening are, we get frustrated when things don't happen quickly. I'm the same way. And, you know, it's interesting when you took that step back and put yourself in the shoes of the person that you're hoping will do the rating of both things.

You understand. And you and I both know it takes like two seconds, 30 seconds, but we forget. And so that just right there should serve as a reminder, like we got to keep saying it and asking because people are busy. So let's take it one step further. How do we practice empathy with somebody we don't want to get into their shoes? So maybe extension of this example is I've had almost 900 ratings go missing. Like they were there and they literally disappeared. And I've been

on the phone, getting somebody on the phone from Apple or Amazon or it's like next to impossible, right? That can help you. So I'm spending all this energy trying to figure out where they disappeared to and can I get them back? But right now I'm like furious. And so wanting to have empathy for, I don't know, person at Apple is next level hard for me right now. So how do we, and that doesn't need to be that example. Maybe there's, there's probably a bazillion better ones. Let's say it's dick at work or whatever, but like, how do we choose to have empathy with somebody we literally want to punch in the face? Totally. Okay. First of all, I'm with you on the reviews. We'll talk about that later. Second of all, um, I, and I'll, I go, I'll go the dick,

dicky route. Okay. I only call them dick or dicky. Okay. Because a dicky feels even better. It's more condescending. I love it. Yeah. Okay. Dickie. So we all got Dickies in our lives, right? And hopefully you don't have to work with these people, but, and because this is the working women podcast, I want to talk about work. And I think we all have people that if unfortunately we were handed a team, we maybe didn't get to pick our teams that we have to work with. And maybe they're in a different department or maybe they're, you know, a vendor that we were having to work with. I got the best. This is okay. This isn't in the book. I'm just going to tell you my own strategy for this. This goes, this is a little therapeutic. I'm a little or five-year-old. Like I'll sit there looking at him and if I can feel his ego just shouting at me or there's, you know, there's some sort of defense mechanism up that makes me want to call him Dickie. I just think about Dickie as a four and five-year-old. And I think about,

wow, there's something in there that happened to you along this path that is causing you to give me this friction. And I'm not here to change it. I'm not here. And this is the other thing with that activity I want to mention. You don't take on that person's energy and that activity by speaking the first person. You just allow yourself to filter their lens through you, but don't take it on. And as an empath, okay, so I'm

an empath. A lot of improvisers and actors are. That's how we're good at our jobs, right? Well, sometimes I find myself taking on the energy, especially if it's somebody who's giving me some defiance in some way. When I filter that lens of that human being, their soul being four or five, whatever age that they probably had something happen to them that they are now acting this way, I have empathy for them, which is messed up because they're coming at me or they're giving me some type of flack. And it really changes the game for me because I think as humans, we are not here to be perfect. I'm not perfect. I have off days, but there's something that it's like a troll on the internet. There is something that is causing them to give me this hurt because

hurt people hurt people. So I think about that. I think about that too. I often think this is what hurt and pain looks like for this person. Yes. Because we all have our defaults and our hurt and our pains and our triggers. Gosh, one of the most challenging things about life and being an adult is sifting through all of that and getting on the other side and having your feelings, but not having them have you. Yeah. All the work. going down it with the not taking on their hurt or their pain or their energy as you put yourself in that first person or think about what might have created them to be this way. So I think sometimes when we think of empathy, that means that we need to like

accept this person and continue to work with them and love them. But then there is an element of I can have empathy from a distance. Yeah. There are some people that I can have empathy for and it is not healthy for me to work with them, interact with them, be friends with them, whatever the case may be. Any tips for having empathy and I don't know, creating distance or having boundaries or whatever you would call it? A thousand percent. You got to protect the peace. Listen, I got family members that I do this with, and they're people you will see the rest of your life, right? So this is something I call protect your vibes. V-I-B-E-S, the acronym is very important believer in energy significance. Okay.

Because energy, like we are all energy. Talk a lot about that in the book as well. But this to me has been one of the biggest components for, let's say it's a family member that you have to see, but you see them at a distance, but you have to communicate with them. You have to see them. I say you pretend like you have on a giant cloak. Okay. And for me, my favorite color is teal. So I got this giant cloak on. And when I walk into that space that I know I'm going to see this human, I put, this is like my girlfriend Judy, calls it a shit shield.

OK, you put on Judy Holler. Judy Holler. Do you know Judy? Yes, I know Judy. I'm actually the entire time we've been talking. I'm like, if this woman does not know Judy, I'm making this connection because she endorsed my book. She is one of my best girls.

And I just was texting her today. She calls it a shit shield. I call it an energy cloak, but her and I talk about this stuff all the time. You got to protect it, right? So we got to go back to Judy in a minute, but this protecting those vibes, because you're a very important believer in energy significance. You got to put this, this we'll call it a shit shield in honor of Judy. Put your shit shield on. And literally what I do when I know I have to talk to a human that I don't necessarily like, I will say, protect my energy. I physically say that out loud to the universe.

And I am just reminded of that. If they start to trigger me in any way, my energy is protected. And then I go to the wounded child and then if they still piss me off, I'm going to walk out of the room, collect myself. And then there are certain people that we can't escape from for whatever reason. So it is allowing yourself to feel protected. And that takes a mental mindset. It's all a mindset and not allowing them to trigger you and to get into their negative vibes. Because if you're working on yourself, if you're giving love, if you are putting time and effort into you, you're going to have a

positive mindset. You're going to be the upward version of you, not the upset you. And upset yous don't like upward yous because they want this pity party to stay in their party, they want the pity party posse. And it's just, it is a vibe mindset. And I find this isn't toxic positivity. When you give to yourself, when you get yourself in this positive mindset, you start attracting more things because vibes, energy attracts the vibes that you're putting out. So I think if you're doing the work and you know that you can protect your vibes with the shield, you will feel protected.

And my other go-to is give yourself a limit on the amount of time you're willing to be in the same space with that person. Certain people in my life, I got like a three day rule. That's it. Okay. So it is, you know, it's not a perfect answer. You have to find what works for you, but that's what I have found that really works for me. And I love that, you know, Judy Holler. She is near and dear. A big fan of her and really great advice. And I think with the time thing, I sort of knowing your limits. I also often think in those moments, I ask myself, how can I act or what can I do or what can I say that will have me leaving feeling proud of myself? Yes. And that is the measure of, I don't know, I'm going to suppose,

success in air quotes, because I can't change this person's mind. I can't change their opinion. I can't force them to be empathetic. I have only control over me. And what I've found is when I get reactive or when I go on that level or whatever, it feels temporarily good. But almost immediately after and for a very long time, I spend a lot of time overthinking and I just don't feel good about myself. And that pisses me off even more that I allowed that person or that situation to make me lesser than I want to be.

Yes. Can I tell you a Judy Hollerism that also works in this? Okay. Because I reach out to her, you know, putting yourself out there as a podcast host, an author, all these things, it's really vulnerable. You're putting yourself in an arena. And I'm speaking to you and me or anybody out here who is doing anything. It doesn't have to be speaking or, you know, maybe you're creative and you're showcasing your art, whatever it is that you're putting out to the world. She said to me, and I'll never forget this because I got some criticism on my book cover from, I have an email list, send it out to the email list. One person wrote me back. It makes me want to throw up literally and physically. It makes me dizzy.

Okay. So I asked Judy, I was like, okay, I know this isn't going to be perfect, but this is already starting to happen. She said two things. Number one, do you want to trade places with this person? The answer was no. Number two, is this person in the arena with you? Has this person written a book? The answer is no. Move on. Yeah. Great advice. Yes. And I still think of that to this day. So Judy, we love you. But I mean, those things are so helpful. And as I go into the book launch, I know there's gonna not be people who like it. And this is the other thing she preaches

is people already don't like you. We just have to do what we're here to do. We have to be in alignment with our assignment and the right people will find us if we're here to do. We have to be in alignment with our assignment and the right people will find us if we're protecting our peace. Love it. Erin, I could talk for days. Thank you for being here.

And if you're listening, you must go to itserindeal.com. We'll put that and all the ways to find and follow Erin in show notes. And for the love of all things holy, go to Amazon and get I See You you the book. Um, it's out now. And, uh, thank you, Erin, for being here. This was a great conversation. Thank you, Nicole. You rock. Okay. Whenever I find myself getting riled up or ready to pick a fight, and that happens more often than I'd care to admit, I say to myself, empathy, it's what's

missing. It's a reminder to me that the person I'm ready to spit fire at has a story. They have experiences. They grew up in a different way, in a different place, in a different time. They've learned different things from different people than me, and they are likely human just like I am. Does that give them permission to treat me badly or say whatever they want to me or in front of me? No, of course not. But it does change how I might respond or react. It can be an invitation for curiosity or an invitation to show up in a way that has me

feeling proud of myself. Because I'll tell you, the times where I've turned into an asshole because I thought someone else was being an asshole I've never felt good about. Empathy works best when it's a two-way street, sure, but you are in charge of only one person's choices and that's your own. As leaders in business, in life, in our families, and our communities, we have an opportunity to choose empathy. And remember, people learn best by experience and observation. So this is how we change our cultures, our environment, and even the world. Empathy, it's woman's work, but more

importantly, it's everyone's work.