This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 198 / Repairing Damaged Relationships with Carlee Myers

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

Our topic is about repairing damaged relationships, but I have to start by saying that I believe that not all relationships need to be repaired. So let me rephrase – we’re going to talk about repairing the damaged relationships you deem worthy of repairing. As the founder of The Stress Less Company, and creator of Holding Space, Carlee Myers is an expert at helping leaders manage day-to-day stress as well as creating safe spaces where people can come together and share and be deeply witnessed in a judgement-free zone. She helps people build bridges instead of barriers. Every relationship must include two interested and willing participants in order for it to work. All relationships take some measure of effort and compromise and a basic level of trust and respect. Make sure those things exist first and foremost. Because even those relationships can be damaged at times, but those are the ones worth repairing. Relationships are a two-way street, where there’s always construction. So put your hard hats on and repair what matters. Connect with Carlee: Website: www.stresslessco.com  IG: https://www.instagram.com/thestresslessco  Free Zero Negativity Guide: www.thestresslessco.myflodesk.com/npx6jn9sj2 Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Thanks to our This Is Woman’s Work Sponsor: If you’re interested in learning more about Snooze Fest - our annual rest and relaxation event, designed for exhausted women who just need a fucking break - make sure you join my community by going to nicolekalil.com. We’re about to release information and trust me when I say, it’s going to fill up fast.

I am Nicole Kalil and you're tuning into the This Is Woman's Work podcast. And I'm grateful that you are because I know that you have 1 million things on your to-do list. You're probably trying to do far too many things really well and you're tired, like really tired. Side note on that, if you're interested in attending Snooze Fest, our annual rest and relaxation event designed for exhausted women who just need a fucking break, make sure you join my community by going to NicoleKhalil.com.

We're about to release information, and trust me when I say it's going to fill up fast. So I also know that you have a ton of options of podcasts to listen to. So the fact that you choose this one, that you invest your time in this way, fills me up in so many ways. I'm committed to talking about topics that impact you, that are relevant today, and that hopefully have you walking into your life feeling even just a little more supported, equipped, and fired up. And today is no exception. This topic impacts each and every one of us because every one of us are in relationships.

Many, many relationships. Family, friends, romantic, professional, casual, committed, passionate, complicated, independent, codependent, healthy, toxic, short-term, long-distance, situational, and sexual, and many more. Some of those relationships work for you, and some of them don't. Some you can't imagine your life without, and some you definitely can. But in all relationships, there is the potential for hurt, rejection, stagnation, and damage to you, to them, and to the relationship as a whole. So we're going to talk today about repairing damaged relationships.

And my guest may have a totally different opinion on this, which we can absolutely discuss. But I have to start by saying that I believe that not all relationships that are damaged need to be repaired. So let me rephrase. We're going to talk about repairing the damaged relationships you deem worthy of repairing. So as the founder of the Stress Less Company and creator of Holding Space, Carly Myers is an expert at helping leaders manage day-to-day stress, as well as creating safe spaces where people can come together and share and be deeply witnessed in a judgment-free zone. She brings fun and honesty to her approach and helps people build bridges instead of

barriers. Carly, thank you for being our guest. And I have to start our conversation by asking your thoughts about what I said, whether or not you believe that all damaged relationships should, in fact, be repaired. You're right on point, or I should say I totally agree. Not all damaged relationships need to be repaired. In fact, the way to repair that damaged relationship may be to part ways at the end of the day. I love that you said that. I do think walking away is a decision and a healthy one at that in a lot of situations. Okay. So then

that leads to the next logical question. How do we know the difference? How do we know which relationships are worth repairing? Well, when it comes to relationships, there are some requirements. And oftentimes I recommend that folks actually, when entering into a friendship or relationship of any kind, that they establish kind of the rules of play. What are the requirements for membership in this relationship? And the thing that I often recommend in terms of identifying or creating those requirements is that what we really do is we say, okay, the only requirement for membership is a general sense of, let's say, admiration and a willingness to make it work. That's it. Because if you don't have that general sense of admiration, it's not going to work. But

also if you don't have the willingness to make it work, it's not going to work. If those two pieces are missing from either side of the relationship, it's doomed to fail. Agreed. And I think it's important. I like that you said that is specifically membership, right? Like this is a exclusive club. Being in relationship with me is an exclusive club, just like it is with you and every person listening who gets to get in and what is a requirement for them to both get in and stay in? Okay. I know in preparation that you have a, I don't know if theory is the right word, an observation of where most people are falling short in their relationships. What is that? Oh my gosh. The number one pitfall that is so overlooked in relationships is that we implement negativity

into our relationships. Negativity being anything experienced as a put down by the other person. So it could be an eye roll. It could be tone of voice. It could be a direct insult. Oftentimes we think, but I have to express this frustration, this grievance. And we absolutely do, but it's how we're expressing them. Relationships are basically like, we can think of it like a bank account. Every time we bring negativity into the relationship, we're making a large withdrawal. I believe, I can't remember the exact statistic. It's somewhere between seven to 12 positive interactions to make up for one negative interaction on average. Now,

if we have an incredibly negative interaction, it may take 40 positive interactions. And so it's really important to take that into consideration. Then that begs the question of if you're experiencing a negative feeling or emotion in a relationship, how do we communicate that or deal with that without taking a huge withdrawal from our relationship account? Yes. Yeah. So emotions have to go somewhere. So they have to be expressed. It's important for us to have a confidant and honestly, many confidants because not everybody's the person to go to. So that's the first thing is having that confidant and honestly many confidants because not everybody's the person to go to. So that's the first thing is having that confidant. But if there's something that needs to be

expressed in a specific relationship and likely there is something underneath every frustration, every grievance is a hidden desire or wish. And so before stepping into a heated discussion, before like having that emotion and just reacting, I would say, take that pause, figure out, okay, what is underneath the frustration? For instance, I always bring up the dishwasher. I think that maybe I've in a past life had issues and grievances with a dishwasher. I do in a current life. I very much have grievance with the dishwasher today. Today, right? Anyway. I don't even have a dishwasher. So I'm like, I'm not sure why I keep bringing it up. But the dishwasher, maybe your roommate, for example, keeps loading the dishwasher weirdly, right? Say it what it is, incorrectly.

There's food on the plates and they're crooked in the dishwasher. They're not efficient, right? You can feel the frustration in my voice, even as I'm describing it. And so, okay, let me take a pause. What is the underlying wish or desire? So I might go backwards. Okay. So my main grievance here is that there's chunks of food on the plate. Oh my gosh. I feel like I'm going to divide a nation right now. There's chunks of food on a plate. What is my desire? Well, if I'm going to going and working through this backwards, I'm concerned that there's chunks of food on the plate because I don't want the dishwasher to get clogged. I don't want to pay a plumber. I don't want to have to replace it. And also I don't want to clean it. That's gross. So what is my desire? My desire is to have a well-functioning dishwasher. And my desire is

to have dishes put in that don't have chunks of food in them. When we reverse engineer that, we're looking at, okay, what is it that I do want? So when I go into that conversation, instead of being like, you always load the dishwasher with chunks of food on it and you put the plates in crooked and it smells bad and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We can say, hey, next time you unload or you load the dishwasher, do you mind just rinsing off the plate in the sink before you put it in? And if you see how I'm putting in, do you mind just putting them in this way? Totally different interaction. Yes. And there's the opportunity for the other person to say whatever their desire or whatever their thought process or reasoning, because there are genuinely

some people that believe that the best way to put food in or dishes is with the food still on it. My mom actually will argue that having food on the dishes improves the dishwasher. She had some plumber tell her this at one point in time. And so she's adamant about it. And then that brings me to something you said earlier, which is tone, right? Because I have said to my family members, dishwasher is a problem, but also the cleaning of the sink. There's just crap food everywhere. And I'm like, if you could just give it a rinse. But my tone is, if you could please just give the fucking sink a rinse, because if this sink gets ruined that we paid so much money for, you're going to have to pay for it out of your own pocket. And obviously that doesn't work.

So talk to us about intention and tone when we are having these conversations and whether it's about the dishwasher or something much more important. Yeah. Well, so like I said, negativity is defined as anything that is experienced as a put down. Now, negativity can be anything that communicates blame, shame, criticism, or judgment, right? So that example communicated almost all four of those. Yes. I'm good at it. We all are. We are hardwired for it. Not only did we have tone, but we had blame, shame, criticism, and judgment across the board. Then we added their stakes, which is like, here's, and then here's this awful negative consequence. And so we add fear to the top of that. But you, I think you're pointing at something

really curious too, in your conversation or in your example with your mother, which is that the opportunity for the other person to share their point of view is really important as well. So you want to, before you go into a conversation expressing your frustration or grievance, you're going to check in, figure out what you want and desire so that you can express that with that proper tone of voice without blame, shame, criticism, or judgment. But it's also our job to be curious. We're asking without expectation. That's a really important thing too. Yes, we really want the dishwasher. We'll just go with that example, right? We really want the dishwasher to be loaded in a specific way. And it is possible

that maybe we might be right, but maybe the other person's right too. And there's something in the middle. So we're going to come with that proper tone of voice, come with that wish and desire, and come with that openness and curiosity. Because maybe we can call up mom's plumber and hear for ourself, is that really true? Because maybe it's going to change the way I load the dishwasher for the rest of my life. It's going to make my job easier. I no longer have to rinse, the rest of my life. It's going to make my job easier. I no longer have to rinse, put a little suds. It's going to make my life easier.

So wouldn't it be wonderful if mom was right? Right, because there are situations where we are, in fact, talking about right or wrong or correct or incorrect. But I would imagine that most damage that happens in relationship is neither. It's two different perspectives or opinions or beliefs that sort of age old, there's two sides to every story type situation. I guess any tips for when we're going into a conversation where I know we feel we're right. I get that. But where it's not so black and white and where we want to share our perspective, but we probably really should hear somebody else's too. Tips on what to say, but also maybe how to be anything along those lines.

Yeah. So what we've talked about up until this point is still relevant, right? The want, desire, if there's a frustration, tone of voice, keeping negativity out, all of those foundational, really, really important. But when we're talking about when things aren't so black and white, we feel right, but it's nuanced. We're really looking at curiosity again as well, but we're also looking at listening. Listening as our primary strategy, which is usually when we're in these, usually we're in these situations, that is the last thing we want to do. Because usually, like, oftentimes we can find ourselves in righteous anger or righteousness, generally speaking,

when things are nuanced. But listening and curiosity is going to play us, it's going to help us kind of play our cards right. It's going to help us get information. It's going to help the other person feel heard. It's going to deescalate any conflict that's happening. And something that I like to do is I like to play a game, which is the game of, or sort of like I put some rules on myself. I like to call it a game because it feels more fun, which is that I listen and repeat back mirror what the other person has said, ask if I got it. Now, this is a foundation of safe conversations, which is something that I teach, which is a formal conversational process, dialogue process.

But you're going to listen, repeat, ask if you got it, listen, repeat, ask if you got it, listen, repeat, ask if there's more, right? And you're going to keep doing that until when you ask the other person, do you feel like I understood you? Do you feel like I got it all? And they say, yes, you cannot share your perspective until that other person says yes. Because first of all, that's going to deescalate conflict. But second of all, it's going to force you into curiosity. You're going to have to listen because you have to repeat it back. And third of all, maybe you're going to hear something, a part of their perspective that you had no idea was a part of the story,

was a part of the nuance. And then once they say yes, you can start your side of the ship. And what's interesting is that usually when this happens, you get curious, you get curious, you get curious, you get curious, you get curious. The other person starting to kind of build up a sense of usually the other person is starting to build up a sense of respect for you because you're finally, because maybe you haven't been finally listening. Um, a really, really great example of this is, um, early days of the pandemic. pandemic. I had two friends over for

dinner and I would have them over for dinner often. We were sort of like quarantining together. And these two particular friends were incredibly opinionated. And of course, they were incredibly opinionated about two things, COVID and politics. And it seemed like every time during this time of our lives, we got together, the conversation would always turn to one of those two things. And things would always get heated. Our hearts would get pounding. We would get triggered and we'd be like, telling, you know, wanting to fight, telling the other person to fuck off. It was just not good. And I remember one day during the pandemic, having these two friends over for dinner. And once again, one of these friends starts telling a particular story that supports

a particular political agenda that I'm like, how could you possibly believe this? You know, I'm on my side of the spectrum. Of course it's nuanced and it clicks for me. And I'm like, oh crap, I should be practicing what I teach, what I've learned. Okay. Let me try to do things differently here. And so I played this game with myself. She had no idea. And by the way, the other person doesn't need to know that you're playing this game or we're following these rules for yourself.

And so I start listening and mirroring her back, asking if I got it, asking, is there more? Mirrored, listened, ask if I got it, ask if there's more. And I did that process over and over. And it took probably a good 45 minutes to an hour until she was to her deeply, I finally understood why she believed what she believed. And why she believed what she believed was because she was scared. She was terrified. And it wasn't just that she was scared that she was terrified. It was that she was scared for herself. She was scared for her partner. She was scared for her family, her friends, her community. And for future generations, right? She was scared not just for everyone. And for the first time having a conversation with her, I understood. I didn't agree. But I understood why she believed what she believed. And what was really interesting about that is on the flip side of that coin, I was also scared for myself, for my partner, for my family, for my friends, my community, future generations. And so in a weird way, we were actually on the

same side of the coin. So that was like mind blown for me in that moment. But when she said, you know, she ended up breaking down in tears and sharing this. And so that was a good sign of psychological safety because usually it ended in anger and anger is a protective emotion. But what was really crazy is not only did I understand and get a different perspective, I still didn't agree, but it brought us closer. And funny enough, she started asking me about my side of the street, my opinion,

whereas that would have never happened in a million years from both ends, if I'm being honest. So that can be the power of just listening and, and mirroring back and playing that game. So that is an incredibly relevant and wonderful example of this work. And as you were talking, it connected two dots for me, what you said earlier, which is ultimately that there is a want or a desire underneath our frustration or righteousness or anger or whatever, all the things that are happening. And I do think at the deepest level, one thing we almost all have in common as humans is one of our deepest desires and wants is to be heard and understood. Yes.

And what you're offering is an opportunity for people to offer that and feel that. And that, to me, is why this would absolutely work. Again, with two willing participants who both have some desire to stay connected in that way. So I want to shift a little bit to what to do when you're the one who caused damage in the relationship. And of course, very rarely is anything totally one-sided, but in the spirit of ownership and responsibility, there are definitely situations where you look at it and you're like, oh, that was me. So what do we do if we need to repair damage that we've mostly caused? Yeah. So this is a really powerful part of the safe conversations process that was created by Harville Hendricks and Helen LaKelley Hunt.

And they have a really beautiful repair process or options, I should say. We've got a menu of options. So let's say we send out negativity. It's a put down, a tone of voice, a direct insult, an eye roll, whatever it is. The first thing that we can do is we can, one option that we could do is resend whatever we've just said. So maybe something comes out. I'll give you, I'll use your sink example. Can you just rinse the fucking sink? Right? And you hear yourself and you're like, Ooh, Oh, okay. Right. You can say, hold on. I did not mean it that way. Let me resend it. And you say, Hey, do you just mind, would you mind re-renting the sink? Right. So you can just practice like, Oh, I caught myself. Let me resend that. Um, resending is a really great way. I can

catch it in the moment. It can deescalate. It can, it can help repair, especially if it's something small. The other way is, um, let's say we say something and the other person has a reaction. They're like, ow, like what, how could you say that? Or, you know, however you notice that negativity has come up and you're like, I have no idea how to say this any differently. That's not going to trigger you or hurt your feelings or like, I don't know, I'm at a loss. You can ask them, okay, how could I have approached that in a way that would have made you feel safer? Right. And so you can ask them to model what that looked like. So, um, an example might be, let's say I tell someone that I love

them, but in my eyes, I'm like, my eyes look dead inside. Right. They're like, ouch. Okay. I don't believe a word you're saying right now. I might be like, well, I don't know what else to do. I told you I loved you. Right. They might say, can you say it again, but with a sparkle in your eye, a twinkle in your eye. And you're like, oh, didn't even think about that. So asking for that to talk about the third option that we might have is to offer a reconnecting behavior. This is something we see in like romance movies, romantic comedies all the time. Oh, the guy showing up with the flowers, the boom box on it over his head in the rain, right? But it could be, it could be a gift. It could be an, I'm sorry, an apology. It could be a handshake. If you're in the workplace, it could be a hug if you're more intimate.

But offering some sort of reconnecting behavior is another option. Can we also say, is there some question or something we can ask if what we're offering as reconnecting is helpful to the other person? I think sometimes we're so quick to reconnect in the way that would work for us or the way we want to, as opposed to thinking about if I'm the one who did the damage, I should be considering what would be most connecting for them. Yeah. That's the question you need to ask yourself before engaging in a reconnecting behavior, for sure. And we might miss the mark, right? We might. We also want to think ahead of time. Yeah. What is it that is going to light this person's or heal a little bit, reconnect with this person? Yeah. I would think ahead of time and then maybe

ask like what kind of reconnecting behavior would really support us. And better to ask when we're not in conflict. And then the last option, and I'm sure there's many more that I'm not even listing here. The last option for repairing is if it's been, if it was a very, very challenging rupture in connection, something really rough happened, people are really, really hurt, then it might require to ask like, hey, can we have a formal safe conversations dialogue about this? And like I said, that's actually a formal structured dialogue process with sentence stems and everything, but it's a guaranteed, as long as both parties are willing, safe place to talk about what has happened and try to create some solutions as well.

So I can't, because of time, dive too much into safe conversations. So I'll send people to your websites if they want to learn more about that. I just have one last question, which is basically the inverse of what I just asked. If somebody does damage to you or a relationship and it, you know and again, two sides, but the onus is mostly on them, obviously they can do all the same things that you just talked about. But what if they don't? What can we do if we want to at least attempt or see if it's worth repairing this damaged relationship, even if it was the other person who caused the most amount of pain or damage. What's your advice there? Yeah. And I think that actually is a beautiful full circle for us, which is that, you know,

if we have a frustration or grievance or hurt, right, we can look, what is the desire under this and communicate that with that other person? You know, Hey, I feel really disconnected. I feel really hurt by what's happened between us. No blame, shame, criticism, or judgment, right? We're keeping negativity out, but I really, really want to make things right with us. What can we do to reconnect? Um, because that's what I want. So you're expressing the desire and then opening up the floor. And then your answer, you'll get something from the other person and you can take it from there. Yeah. And sometimes the answer you get isn't the one you want, but you can still take it from there. And I just think of this from a previous episode

that I did where it's like, you might still have a want or a desire or a need. And if that person is unwilling to work with you to repair the relationship, then you get to go find someone else or something else to help. And it could even be you, but to help meet that want or desire or need because that's part of relationship with ourselves and each other. And I'm so tired of seeing women in shitty relationships. And I don't just mean romantic. Yeah. And I would say, you know, a lot of us think when we think about relationships, we think about the other person often in their actions. And there's so much about relationships that are outside of our control. And that's what can drive us crazy.

It's crazy making sometimes. But we can often forget that we actually have so much more control, autonomy than we could ever imagine. And oftentimes what creates healthy relationship dynamics in our own lives are the decisions that we make, taking the information and making decisions from there. And it could be you like that last example that you go and you ask for repair, but it's too soon. So your, your autonomy, your, your decision may not have to be end the relationship if that's not what you want,

but it could be, Hey, it's best for me to take some space. It doesn't mean the relationship's over or it's best for me to end the relationship or it's best for me. Right. But you, there's so much autonomy. Um, and I want to throw one little nugget here. I know we're running out of time, over or it's best for me to end the relationship or it's best for me. Right. But there's so much autonomy. And I want to throw one little nugget here. I know we're running out of time. And that's the difference between a request and a boundary. Right. The request is asking for something that's outside of your control. The boundary is what you do when that request isn't met. And it's important to have those both of those pieces together in a relationship because you get to keep your autonomy. You get to make sure you're taken care

of at the end of the day and that you have some semblance of contentment and peace in your relationships across the board. Thank you for sharing that nugget. It's a powerful distinction. And if you're listening and you want to learn more about safe conversations, and also Carly has a free zero negativity guide that's available on her website. It's stresslessco.com forward slash links. We'll put that and all the other ways to find and follow Carly in show notes. Thank you for this important and powerful conversation. Thank you so much for having me. My pleasure.

Okay, friends, at the end of the day, any relationship must include two interested and willing participants in order for it to work. All relationships take some measure of effort and compromise and a basic level of trust and respect, at least in my opinion. Make sure the things that are important to you exist first and foremost in your relationships, because even those relationships can be damaged at times, but those are the ones worth repairing. And when it comes time to repair a meaningful relationship, remember, conversations must include safety, physical, emotional, and psychological.

And negativity has no place here. So relationships are a two-way street and there's always construction on the road. So put your hard hat on and repair what matters because that is woman's work.