This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 20 Minutes Is the New Hour with Fran Hauser | 438

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

What if the problem isn’t that there aren’t enough hours in the day, but that we’re giving too many of them away? For a long time, doing more was practically a badge of honor. More meetings. More preparation. More polishing. More yeses. More proving. And while all that effort might get results, it can also leave us burnt out, resentful, and wondering why the hell we’re working this hard when technology was supposed to make our lives easier. In this episode, Nicole sits down with Fran Hauser, leading career expert, champion of women in the workplace, former President of Digital at Time Inc., startup investor, and acclaimed author of 20 Minutes Is the New Hour: The Ambitious Woman’s Guide to Doing Less and Achieving More. They discuss: Why 20 minutes might actually be enough for that hour-long meeting The four P’s stealing our time: perfectionism, people pleasing, procrastination, and padding How people pleasing creates overwhelm, burnout, and resentment The power of pausing before automatically saying yes Why saying yes to every opportunity can actually work against women professionally How to recognize what’s underneath procrastination Why starting messy can create momentum How shorter timelines can force clarity and keep perfectionism from taking over The difference between Chronos and Kairos How leaders can experiment with shorter meetings and meeting-free time Why doing less isn’t about caring less—it’s about being intentional with our most precious resource The goal isn’t to reclaim 40 minutes from a meeting just to squeeze two more meetings into the space. It’s to stop giving away so much of our time to habits, expectations, and systems that don’t deserve it. Thank you to our sponsors! Protect your loved ones without spying on them. Go to HeyPolo.com/work or use code WORK and get 70% off your first year Connect with Fran: Website: https://www.franhauser.com/  Book: https://www.franhauser.com/twentyminutes  IG: https://www.instagram.com/fran_hauser/  LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franhauser/  Related Podcast Episodes CLASSIC EPISODE: The 15-Minute Method To Getting It Done with Sam Bennett The Ambition Trap with Amina AITai | 309 119. Realistic Time Management for High-Performing Women Entrepreneurs Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review:Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaia and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll.

So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem. Hey there, I'm Travis Hoym. of Motley Fool Hidden Gems Investing. Each weekday on Motley Fool Hidden Gems Investing, we talk through the business news you need to know and the stories moving stocks on Wall Street. On weekends, we game plan personal finance strategies

and dive into the industries shaping tomorrow and host the experts, authors, and executives that understand them. Tune in for insights and a long-term perspective on investing and, of course, stock ideas, plenty of them. To quote a listener, it pays to listen. Check us out and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing women's work in the world

today, which means that you get to question just about everything and decide what's real, right, and true for you, because you are always the decider here. And on this episode, we're questioning our longstanding love affair with doing more. I will be upfront that I've been working on untangling this toxic relationship for myself over the last few years. I am trying to do less on purpose. And part of my brain still has a hard time believing that it works. Because for most of my career, hard work was the name of my game. I said yes to every real and imagined opportunity that came across my desk. I did my work and covered everyone else's work. I attended every meeting, went to every event, solved every problem, proved and people pleased my ass off.

I truly believed that if it was hard, that was a sign that I was doing it right, because there wasn't a problem I didn't try to solve by doing more. And on paper, that worked. And in real life, I was burnt out, exhausted, annoyed, and convinced I was surrounded by idiots most of the time, which is funny, because they were the ones who tricked me into doing all the work. So who's the idiot now? The problem with a strategy that gets you results, even when it's costing you so much, is that it's really hard to stop using it. It's hard to believe that another way is possible.

But then I guess it said something to me on this podcast a few years ago that I haven't been able to unhear. We were talking about the 40-hour work week, and she said something to the effect of, can somebody please explain why with computers, smartphones, the internet, AI, automation, and an app for practically everything. why we would still need to work the same number of hours or more than we did in the 1940s when the 40-hour work week was established. And my brain went, duh. We have gotten faster to almost everything. But instead of reclaiming that time, we just fill it with more. More work, sure, but also more overthinking, over-preparing, over-perfecting, and over-committing. And that's where our guests says the four P's come in, four patterns that we're going to die.

into today because they're likely stealing a whole lot more of your time than you realize. Fran Hauser is a leading career expert and champion of women in the workplace, former president of Digital at Time, Inc., startup, investor, and acclaimed author. Her new book is 20 Minutes is the New Hour, the Ambitious Woman's Guide to Doing Less and Achieving More, which is perfect for this conversation because we're going to keep exploring this whole doing less to achieve more thing until our brains finally catch on. Fran, welcome to the show. And before we dive into those four P's, I wanted to start with the title of your book. What do you mean when you say that 20 minutes is the new hour? Well, Nicole, thank you so much for having me on.

I'm so happy to be here with you today. So the title, 20 Minutes is the New Hour, you know, really came from a moment in my career when I started cutting back most one-hour meetings to 20 minutes. And what I found was that when I did that, I was so much more focused. I was so much more intentional. And I was far less likely to fill that time with unnecessary conversations or tasks because I only had 20 minutes. And so it kind of got me question. questioning what other timelines am I creating for myself out of habit that could be shorter. And so 20 minutes as the new hour came from this very literal place of shortening one hour meetings to 20 minutes. But it's also a metaphor for how we spend our time in general.

It is crazy how often I hear that when we have an hour meeting or whatever time frame it is, that we feel obligated to fill it as opposed to thinking about what is the actual right time frame for this meeting or this thing. So I think meetings are really relevant and obvious example, but are there any other examples where we think something needs more time than it actually does that we might not be conscious of in our lives? Yeah, I mean, I think there are so many things. I mean, I'll give you an example that is just really relevant for me because I just recently went through this. I opened a bookstore in 2024. I love that so much.

That's like my dream. I know. It's always been my dream. And like my dream space became available in October of 2024. And I decided to go for it, which was a really big decision. And I really wanted to be open for the holidays because the holidays, you know, it makes up like 20 to 30 percent of, of retail for the year. So it would have been such a missed opportunity for me if I wasn't open for the holidays. When I looked at online and I talked to people, the average amount of time

that it usually takes to open a bookstore is six to nine months. And I was like, okay, like how am I going to do this in eight weeks? But it forced clarity. The fact that I only had eight weeks, I had to get really clear on what my priorities were and what were the things that I was not going to open with. Like I decided I wasn't going to launch with e-commerce. I wasn't going to launch with an events strategy. I wasn't going to enter into relationships with a million different publishers, right? These were all of the things that I said, you know, these can all come later. The important thing was opening a physical space that was welcoming and that had a lot of books and that had a team of people in a point of sale system, right? And I love that I only had eight

weeks because I feel like if I had more time, I just, the perfectionism would have crept in. I would have asked for more iterations of the logo when the logo was great, just as it was. Right. But if I'd had more time, I'd be like, no, let's look at this. Let's change it this way. So I think sometimes with these projects that we work on, a product launch, a business launch, we tend to give ourselves months. And like, do we really need months? Or can it be, weeks. And so I think that it's something I call padding, you know, when we give ourselves too much time and then we end up filling it with unnecessary tasks. So yeah, I think this concept can apply to like pretty much anything. Okay. So I want to talk about the four peas. You mentioned to already padding and perfectionism. Tell us what they are and how having this time is creating more of an opportunity for us to fall in that trap. Yeah. So, you know, the whole first part of the book really goes deep into each one of these four behaviors that are harmful or they can be harmful to our relationship with time. Their perfectionism, people pleasing,

procrastination, and padding. And, you know, there's a chapter on each one. And I think it's really important to understand these patterns that are holding us back. And, you know, perfectionism, If you think about like when you're in that mode where you're tweaking and you're polishing and you're refining because you want to get it like just right. And really there's not much material value that you're creating by doing all of that tweaking and polishing. And if you think about what you could be spending that time on, like talk about opportunity cost, right? Like you could be spending that time on something that's really moving the needle at work or in your career. So the whole perfectionism thing is like it's it's, it's, it's, something that a lot of us deal with. And one of the things that helps me is before I approach

a task or a project, I really try to think about like what level of effort does this deserve? You know, is this an A level or is this a B or a C? There are some things that deserve an A level. You know, if I'm giving a presentation to senior management or to the board, that deserves an A level effort. But if I'm replying to like a standard email, right, the overthinking and the ruminating over like using the exact word, like it's such a waste of time. So that is like one of the strategies that I really love is like not everything deserves your A game. And there are some things where bare minimum is great. Like I know like there's such a negative connotation to this, this idea of like sometimes we'll say like, oh, our kids, like, you know, they do bare minimum and they do the bare minimum

at school. But sometimes bare minimum is okay. Yeah. I call it strategically half-assing it. An A-level, it deserves my full ass, but everything else half-ass is just fine. Half-ass is great. Like, it's perfect, actually. And also, the other thing that I want to say, Nicole, because I think this is important is there are so many books that have been written about perfectionism. There's so many books that have been written about people pleasing. It was really important for me, as I was exploring these behaviors, these patterns, that everything in the book is about how those patterns relate to time. That was the lens that I used, right?

And then so people pleasing, when we're saying yes to everything, you talked about this in your intro, right? We're saying yes to everything, even when we don't have the bandwidth. Not only does it cause overwhelm and burnout, but it also leads to resentment, which is its own time suck, right? How many times, like, have you stepped up and done something that somebody else probably should have stepped up, right? But you stepped up and then you start feeling resentful. Like, why am I doing this when they, you know, when they should be doing it? So the people, people pleasing is my, it's like the big one for me.

It always has been. I think a lot of it has to do with my childhood, the way that I was raised. And so I know I have to press pause always before I say yes. And like my go-to is, you know, let me check my calendar and I'll get back to you. Because my default is I want to say yes. But I can't. Like 90% of the time it's a no. And even like if I get a request in my inbox, I always reread my emails. Like if I am saying yes to something, I check in with myself. You know, am I saying yes for the right reason? Am I saying yes? Because this is aligned with my priorities, or maybe it's just something I really want to do, right? But if I'm saying yes, just because I feel bad saying no, that's not a good reason. Because then we're just giving away our time. We're literally just giving it away. Like we say time is our most precious resource, but how often are we just giving it away, right? So that's people pleasing.

I think two quick things on that. First, the importance of having that phrase in your back pocket, let me check and get back to you. I often, you know, thank you so much for thinking of me. I wouldn't want to commit without being able to commit fully. So let me do some checking and some thinking and I'll get back to you type thing. But without having something like that at the ready, I think that's where we default to yes. That's where we go, sure, and without actually thinking. So having that I think is so, so imperative.

The other thought that I had is how often I think we say yes to these things because we think it's going to give us more exposure or more opportunity. And it's been interesting. There is research out there that shows, especially with women, that this is working against us. We are saying yes to opportunities that don't directly align with what we want. And then people perceive us as too busy or too overwhelmed or they put us in the like they'll volunteer for everything bucket. And so we end up with the volunteer opportunities, not the promotion opportunities or what have you. And so it's almost doing the opposite of what we think it does? Any reactions or thoughts there? Yeah, I completely agree. It's like, oh, Nicole will do that. I'm sure Nicole will step up and do it. Why do we need to step up?

I actually think sometimes it can even be perceived as weakness because it's almost like there's this lack of confidence. You know what do you mean? Like I feel like you show so much confidence, right? when you can say that, like, let me check my calendar and I'll get back to you. Or always, thank you for thinking of me. Not, I'm sorry, but, you know, thank you for thinking of me. I'm, you know, I'm so flattered. I'm heads down right now working on X, Y, and Z. You know, so unfortunately I won't be able to participate.

But I think that exudes confidence. Like, oh, she knows exactly what her priorities are, where she wants to spend her time. She's not afraid to kindly say no and to set boundaries. And so I think you're very much. right. I think it does work against us in some ways. I have a story in the book about the paper plate mom where when I, so when my oldest started kindergarten, you know, it was new. We were new to the school. I was trying to get to know everybody. I wanted to show that I could be helpful. And I was just like signing up for everything on those sign-up geniuses. And there was always, and the hardest things,

like making the cupcakes or there was always this one mom who would sign up to bring the paper plates or the napkins or the easy. And I was like so resentful of her because I'm like, she does this every single time. And then I realized similar to what you said in your opening remarks, she's the smart one. She knows exactly what her bandwidth is. She wants to be able to contribute in some way, right? And like that's her way of contributing. That's awesome. And let me tell you, like she's not holding any resentment. The rest of us are holding the resentment. So there's definitely something to be, to be said for that.

Sorry to break in, but this part matters. Rate the show, share it, and support the sponsor so I can keep making episodes worth interrupting you for. Couldn't agree more. I have a funny story of where I over-rotated and brought lasagna to a kindergarten event, but like fully baked lasagna. and what they were asking for was lasagna noodles for an art project. And I was like, okay, well.

Perfect. There you go. There's my perfection. That's it. People pleasing. You were like, you wanted that gold star. You made the lasagna from scratch. Let's talk about procrastination.

I think this is one we all know. And I think it was talked about for a very long time. I haven't heard about it as much lately. So I know. It's interesting. I mean, you know, I think procrastination, really comes into play when there's something really hard that we're just like, we can't wrap our heads around it.

We don't really know how to approach it or tackle it. And so we just keep putting it off. Maybe there's fear. You know, sometimes, like, I feel like when I'm procrastinating at something, I have to kind of step back and say, what am I afraid of with this? Or is there, like, information that I'm missing? Like, if I had a certain piece of information,

could I then get started? Is there somebody that I could reach out to? I think for me, the big, thing that helps me when I'm procrastinating is just to like give myself a short period of time, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, just to start and like to go into it with this is not about finishing it, but maybe I just like write an outline or maybe I just like jot down a few notes or I make a call like to somebody who I think can be helpful. It's like taking that one action because you know as we take these small actions, like they build momentum, right? And so just taking like the pressure off around,

like, I need to finish this, it's more about let me just start. Yeah. You know, and it's okay if it's messy. And let me give myself a short period of time and kind of just do it. You know, like just just, just see what I can do. There was, I have a story in the book about a company that I'm an investor in and they asked me to help them with their fundraising round, and I kept procrastinating on it. And I wasn't sure why. I was like, why do I keep putting this off? I love the founders.

I love this company. We were going to do a Zoom where we bring in investors in my network to potentially invest in the company. I'm like, I know I have the network to bring. And then what I realized was that it was like right after COVID, and so much had changed with all the different financing vehicles. and I hadn't kept up. And that's what was like, that was my fear was, wait, what financing vehicle are we going to use?

And then that's when I was like, well, let me call my friend Annie, who did keep up. And like, you know, let me kind of talk to her, have a conversation with her about this. And of course, as soon as I did that, it was like, okay, now we can move forward. But I didn't really know why I was procrastinating until I did the reflecting around, like, something is stopping me from starting this. So what is that? And what can I do about it? You know, it's interesting. It makes me think of there's research done that basically says that women want to wait until they're 100% ready before they get into action and how much that's hurting us because you can't be 100% ready to do something you've never done before. The only way you get ready is by those smaller action steps. Little steps built up over time lead to big opportunities, big confidence, things like that. Yes. You mentioned it earlier. Anything else with padding that we need to be thinking about as it relates to time?

Yeah, I mean, I think just the big thing to be thinking about is this law of diminishing returns, you know, and just even like Parkinson's law is really a big part of this. The whole idea of getting to that 80% and that 80%, like once you're there, like you're good most of the time. Just question, question the timeline. When you look at your calendar for the upcoming week and you see meeting after meeting after meeting on your calendar and they're all one hour. Like, do they need to be that long? You know, can they be shorter? Can you reclaim some of that time? Any tips for us, if we're doing this, if we're looking in our calendar, shortening, testing, I think we'll learn a lot of this through trial and error as we learn just about everything. But how can we identify? How do we know when we're giving something more time or effort than it actually deserves?

It's interesting. Like, I actually, I feel it. Like, I feel it in my, in my stomach. Like, when I'm overrotating on something, like, I literally will start feeling it. Like, okay, I'm getting frustrated. Like, I just, I feel like I'm, like, spinning my, spinning my reels. And I'm getting bored because I've spent so much time thinking about this. It's even little things, like, when I start getting picky about, like, is this a semicolon? Is it an M-Dash? Is it a comma? I mean, like, you know what I mean? like when I'm rereading something for the fifth time, like it's in all of those instances.

Just really pay attention to that and ask yourself, is it good enough as it is? And also ask for early feedback on things. Now, like if I'm writing a proposal, maybe I'm doing a speaking engagement and the organization asks me for a proposal, I will put something together very quickly. It will be a rough draft. It will be based on whatever objectives they're trying to solve, you know, their employee base. But it's, I would rather do a rough draft, send it to them and say, here are some initial thoughts. I'd love to get early feedback from you. Like, let's workshop this together.

Again, earlier in my career, I don't think I would have had the confidence to do that, right? But like, it's, it's great. People want to be involved. Yeah. You know, don't feel like I have to figure it all out. You know, people want to be involved. They want to be part of the process with you. I think that's a great example because you would think putting out what you're pretty is going to be for a speaking event would be one of those full-ass-a opportunities. And it is. But what you're saying is it's not the same thing as perfection and having it all figured out and getting all the way through everything on your own.

It's putting something that works for now out and then collecting, as you said, feedback and input. And then it ends up being better than anything we would have come up with on our own anyway. Absolutely. I mean, I'll tell you that in that case, it was just a one-page Google doc. It was like, here's what I heard you say in terms of the objectives. Like, this is what you're trying to solve for. Here are a few topics that I think would be really interesting.

And here are a couple of different ways that we could format the conversation. Boom. And just send that in. And, you know, and it, like, I think about like very early on in my career when I would put these 40-page PowerPoint decks together, like just to socialize an idea with my manager. You know, like, I wasn't even asking for a group. light. I wasn't asking for financial resources or human resources. I just kind of wanted to see if she was excited about this product idea and if we should go deeper. I probably spent 100 hours putting that together, you know, versus just having a conversation with her. So funny. Okay.

You write about Kronos and Kairos in your book. What are they and how or what do they have to teach us about our relationship with time? Kronos and Kairos are ancient Greek concepts that I like went down a rabbit hole on when I was doing research for the book because I just I find it's so interesting. So chronos is what we think of as calendar time. It's it's the 24 hours in a day. It's all of the doing, right? It's all of the output. It's all of the stuff that we get done measured by those 24 hours. Chiros is more about the quality of the time that we spend. It's about being present. It's about being in a flow state. It's more. about those pockets of time where we're just being.

You know, maybe we're going for a walk. Maybe we're sitting with a cup of coffee, spending time with a friend. You know, as high achieving women, we have been conditioned to believe that success comes from mastering Kronos, that it's all about output. It's, it's, Nicole, what you said early on. It's like doing more, doing more, doing more. That's where success comes from. And in reality, it's so important for Kyros to be a part of your life.

It's important for you to be able to look at your calendar and see free space because it's so good, you know, obviously for your well-being, but it actually makes you even more productive in the other parts of your life because you're resting, because you're, you know, how often like when I go for a walk, I unlock like some. creative, like, idea comes to me that never would have came to me if I was actually trying, do you know, like if I was doing the research and I was at my laptop. But going for a walk, or like a decision that you've been agonizing over, like all of a sudden becomes so clear. So I actually call that passive productivity because you're not trying to be productive, but you actually end up being productive sometimes. So the whole goal of the book is to share tips and techniques and strategies so that we spend less time in chronos and more time in chiros. That's really at the end of the day, the goal.

And I think that that's really important because if I would have listened to this episode five or ten years ago, I would have shortened all of my meetings to 20 minutes and then I would have doubled the amount of meetings I had. You know what I mean? I would have basically said, oh, I created more time for more 20-minute meetings. And what I'm hearing you say is we condense what we can, timewise, so that we can get more productive and more clear and intentional in those meetings. And then we create space for more chiros opportunities. Is that fair?

That's exactly right. That's what we kept saying as we were working on the book with my editor. It's like, you know, what are you going to do with the 40 minutes that you get back? Right. It's not about fitting more in. It really is about creating space and time on your calendar. So yeah, that's exactly the idea. So what would you say to the person who's listening who's like, this sounds wonderful. I'm in, but I work in a culture or an environment or with a leadership team that I'm not sure we'll get or respect this. So if I shorten my meetings to 20 minutes and I can convince them, but if I go for a walk instead of doing another meeting or if I do something that looks, and I'm just going to put in air quotes, unproductive to that. Like how do I get somebody on a lot? board. How do I do this in my real work and explain it in a way that gets people to not mistake it for caring less or working less or being less valuable? Yeah, I think it's really baby steps, especially if the culture, if it's really like a heavy meeting culture, which a lot of organizations

are. And I really do think it's baby steps. I'll tell you one of the, I think, best things that an organization can do. And this is something that you could have this conversation with your manager is to have meeting free time, like for an hour, like each day, to just block that out. So like across the company, there are no meetings being scheduled during that time. I love that. Could you imagine? Yeah. Like just like, and like nobody's scheduling meetings during that time. Like that's your time to either go deep into a project that you're working on to if you want to go to go to go to go do that walk, whatever, whatever works for you, I think that would be like a really great first ask, you know? And then the other thing that I would do, like if you're, if you manage a team,

I would start playing around with shorter meetings because you're modeling for your team, you know? So start, you don't have to do everything. Like pick maybe one recurring meeting that's like a weekly meeting and maybe see like, could you shorten it? Maybe not. even to 20 minutes, maybe to 30 minutes or 45, you know, baby steps. And I think what'll happen is so much good will come out of all these practices that then management will be more open to implementing even more ideas. But it is, it's baby steps. And I love the idea of meeting free time. I think it's just more organizations are doing this. And it's so, it's so good. It's so good. I would have, I don't flourish, I think, if that would have been set up for me because I would have felt like there was permission.

And then to your point, when you test something out and you get good results, the outcomes are the same or better, right? Then I think you get more buy-in and you can keep testing and evolving. I'll also add that one other good next step is to order the book for yourself and for the people on your team or your leaders. maybe that will move the needle a little further, a little faster. Again, the book is called 20 Minutes is the new hour. It's available on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can also find and follow Fran on LinkedIn and Instagram at Fran

and How'ser. We're going to put all of those links and all the ways to find and follow Fran in show notes. Fran, thank you for writing this book. I do wish I would have had it 20 years ago. And for being here today and helping us to rethink our, opportunity and relationship with time. It was such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Nicole.

It was absolutely my pleasure. All right, friend, I'm going to give it to you straight. We don't need more hours. We need to stop giving so many of them away. To perfectionism, to people pleasing, to overthinking, over preparing, over accommodating, and to system structures and people

that take far more of our time than they will ever give back in return. Your time is yours. be intentional about where you invest it, ruthless about where you don't. And remember, you are the decider. And if you don't value your time, who will? So you first, because that is woman's work. Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life?

You know, the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaya and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. and today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride.

Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem.