This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 200 / TIWW Classic - Burnout with Cait Donovan

Episode Date: March 20, 2024

We’re releasing the 200th episode of This Is Woman’s Work!! That’s 200 topics, in just over 4 years, and let me tell you, it’s been a wild ride. I love this thing that I get to do. And I love that you’re doing it with me.  THANK YOU… I am forever grateful! So, in celebration of 200 episodes, I’m taking a break from recording and releasing a classic episode on the topic of Burnout – some of us may need it more than others (ME, it’s me!) – but I KNOW we’ll all benefit from hearing it. Cait Donovan is a leading burnout expert, author of The Bouncebackability Factor and host of “Fried. The Burnout Podcast”. Run down. Drained. Exhausted. Worn Out. Nothing left in the tank. Ever wonder why there are so many ways of saying burnout? It’s probably because far too many of us are experiencing this far too often. And let’s be real, communicating healthy boundaries is hardest when you’re stressed and overwhelmed. It’s also when it’s most important. So let’s do it together. Less perfection, more REAL. Less martyr, more grace. Less worry, more trust. Less other people’s expectations, more honoring ourselves. That feels like woman’s work to me. Connect with Cait: Website: https://www.caitdonovan.com/  IG: https://www.instagram.com/caitdonovanspeaks/  Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Thanks to our This Is Woman’s Work Sponsor: To get the best, most comfortable leggings I’ve ever worn (and rarely take off), go to http://lndr.com/ and use promo code TIWW to get 20% off! I’m obsess with LNDR and agree with them that your butt deserves the best.

I am Nicole Kalil and you are listening to the 200th episode of This Is Woman's Work. That's 200 topics in just over four years. And let me tell you, friend, it has been a wild ride. From the very beginning, I called this show my passion project and nothing has changed about that. I love this podcast. I love the conversations. I love preparing. I love thinking about the questions you'd want me to ask. I love this podcast. I love the conversations. I love preparing. I love thinking

about the questions you'd want me to ask. I love challenging the status quo. I love that I get to curse whenever I want. And what I love the most is that you've joined me on the journey. I think about that often. You're listening from your part of the world and someone else is listening from theirs, which could be just about anywhere as our podcast is being listened to in 179 different countries. And I'm in my office in Andover, Massachusetts in my work pajamas, which are a slightly more elevated and refined version of my sleeping pajamas. And by the way, if you're looking for the most comfortable leggings in the world, go to lndr.com and use the code TIWW for 20% off. And while we're not in the same place, we are all together, redefining woman's work for ourselves and for the world. No matter what has been going on or how many times I've pivoted or evolved in

my work through personal challenges and global ones. Hell, we started this podcast in 2020, so it was just a matter of weeks before the wheels came off and never once in all of that have I ever considered stopping. I love this thing that I get to do, and I love that you're doing it with me. Thank you. So as you might imagine, we thought quite a bit about how to celebrate 200 episodes. Should we do a best of or try to get a big name guest or do a lessons we've learned about

podcasting? And there were good ideas in there, but ultimately what it boiled down to is my idea of a great celebration is a vacation. Time off is one of my primary motivators. So we decided to re-release an all-time favorite episode and give me the week off. So I picked my top 10 favorites, my team did theirs, and then we narrowed it down to the episodes that were on all of our lists. And when I looked at that list, it became really obvious. My brain went, yes, this is the topic we all need, or maybe it's just me and I'm projecting, but I don't think it's just me. So in celebration of 200 episodes, I'm taking a break from recording

and we're all going to listen to this epically good episode on burnout with Kate Donovan. Some of us may need this more than others, me, it's me that needs it so I can catch my burnout sooner, but I know that we will all benefit from hearing about it today. So here we go with our 200th episode. I've asked New York City's leading burnout expert Kate Donovan to join us today speaker host of fried the burnout podcast and author of the bounce back ability factor Kate is known for her creative burnout recovery solutions. And I know we all could use some of those. Kate, thank you so much for joining me today to talk about burnout, resentment, and boundaries. It feels serendipitous to be talking to you right now.

I love that as a podcast host, because I've had a few of those conversations too, where I'm like, this isn't for my listeners. I'm glad that they'll get this, but I really want this for me. So I love that. Though there right now, I will try to make this beneficial for everyone, but selfishly let's dive in. I want to start by talking about burnout. First question. It's not just me, right? Oh, no. God, no. The numbers will range depending on where you look. But I haven't seen a number pop up this year under 45% in any group that's been studied. So pretty much 45% of any group is the lowest number that you'll see. And the higher side numbers are about 87%. We're seeing that in vets and dentists are really high right now. You know, I've actually heard that. What are you

seeing out there as the burnout expert? What's contributing to burnout? How are people handling it? What are just some tips and ideas and things that you're seeing? I mean, let's be honest, the pandemic threw everybody for a loop. A major portion of getting to burnout is having a consistent feeling like things are unfair. Right. So when you are giving more than you're getting in any situation, you're going to be more prone to burnout. Does not mean that burnout is your fault. It just means that there are certain situations that prime us for it. And being in two and a half years of uncertainty, your kids are in school, your kids are not in school, you're homeschooling, you're a teacher, you're an entrepreneur, you're working, you quit your job because you can't take care of your mother and your kids while the things are happening and all

the two and a half years of uncertainty had us all contributing to our lives a lot more than we were getting in return. Because we weren't getting any of the normal joys of life. We weren't celebrating each other's birthdays. We weren't meeting our friends for a cocktail. We weren't doing the things that remind us how connected we are. Lack of community is a major burnout risk factor. We've been isolated. So there's all these components that are happening right now that are really related to the pandemic. And I think that's one portion of it. The other portion of it, I think, is we are in the midst of a massive shift right now. The patriarchy is shifting a bit. Capitalism is

shifting a bit. It's becoming more pro-social. There's a lot of things that are shifting. And of course, we can go into the things that are not shifting or shifting backwards, but those are always going to happen when things are changing. And I think that having so many things change on top of all the uncertainty we were feeling and not knowing how really to act in a new world. Can I say this thing? Am I going to get canceled? Can I not say this thing? Who do I talk to? When do I offer an opinion? When do I not offer an opinion? There's just been a lot of decisions to be made. So all of this creates massive uncertainty, massive lack of alignment, massive lack of community. We're going through growing pains. I feel that so hard. I didn't really think about,

I thought about it in relationship to the pandemic. That seems to make sense. I never thought about it as burnout being associated with feeling like something's unfair. That resonates with me really hard. And all times I've felt burnout. Do you think, or do you observe that any gender experiences burnout more or less or differently or for different reasons? My question is, does gender play a part in burnout? So anybody that does not fall into cisgender, they're going to have to deal with some sort of ism. So, and anybody that deals with any sort of ism, especially if there's some sort of intersectional ism, is going to experience burnout more because their stress levels are going to be

higher because they are handling not only microaggressions, but macroaggressions all the time. So their stress system is constantly being turned on because they constantly have to protect themselves. So there's that portion. So any gender that doesn't fall into cis gender is going to experience it more. The thing about the difference between people that identify as men and people that identify as women and their burnout experiences is women experience it because of sort of this martyr sacrifice syndrome that we like to participate in, that our culture teaches us is the right way to do things. And then that we do, even though we know we're not supposed to, right?

So we participate in this like sort of cultural rule that we don't even agree with. And men participate in the cultural rule that they're supposed to be responsible for their family's physical and financial safety at all times. And I know, listen, I know that nothing applies to everyone. So there are women, a lot of women that I work with are the breadwinners. So they don't fit into this category, but they're trying to be the breadwinners and still be the martyrs and the sacrificers. And you can't do it all. So I think the reasons, like men don't have space for vulnerability. They don't have space for emotional expression. They don't have the opportunity to connect with each other the way that women do. That's a major risk factor for them.

And women don't have the time to connect because they're too busy taking care of everybody else. But it's really interesting because every single person that I've worked with over the years, we're talking hundreds of people, thousands if you count acupuncture patients before that. Everybody is so busy taking care of everybody else, but no one feels taken care of. Like, how does that work? If we're all busy taking care of everybody, why doesn't anybody feel taken care of? Oh my God. That is such a powerful question. It's crazy. Like I know I go towards self-sacrificing. I know I've been socialized to, you know, behave that way. I'm aware of it and, and how quickly I've fallen back into it. It's like a default when I'm overwhelmed or stressed out or not really

paying attention. All of a sudden, you know, I'm trying so hard to make sure everyone around me is taken care of. And yet I'm not sure they feel particularly taken care of because I am not a happy camper right now. I'm not easy to be around. So interesting question. Okay. I know that burnout leads to resentment and that or resentment leads to burnout. This is a, this is a closed circle system. Okay. Makes sense. You say resentment is a superpower. How can resentment be a good thing? Like walk. I think resentment is only a good thing. And I think resentment could save the world. I'm trying to get a Ted talk on this topic right now, because I really think that like 40 million people need to hear this. And, and I'm not saying that from like, they need to

hear it from me. Like, I don't care if I'm the person to say it. I just know that this is the message that I have. And I think it's important. Every time there's resentment, that's an indicator to you where you think something is unfair. So the definition of resentment is bitter indignation at having been treated unfairly. Bitter indignation of having been treated unfairly. Saying that sentence is really difficult without practice. And I do this in speeches constantly, so I'm used to it. But the first like four times I gave this speech, I was like, and so resentment tells you where you think something is unfair and then which grants you the opportunity to unwind it and see, is this unfair because I'm over giving, overdoing, over sacrificing, meddling? There's a lot of meddling. Or is this unfair because someone is demanding too much of me?

Right. And then I use a question sieve with people like you go through these four questions. Do you need to drop this thing? Like a lot of things, there's about 10% of things that you do right now. And this is absolutely an accusation. There's 10% of things that you do right now do not need to be done. And no one would notice if you stopped. And they're taking up a ton of energy and you're mad about it. And they just don't need to be done. Right.

So finding out if there's things that you can just drop, like just literally take things off your plate that don't matter. I just had in my Facebook group for the podcast, somebody was saying, you know, I see people around me now that are burnt out and I just want to help them. And then I give them all the advice and then they don't take the advice. And then, and I had to stop and say, listen, you're still participating in your own burnout behaviors because you are over-inserting yourself into someone else's problem where they're not asking you for help. You're not actually creating any help for them because they don't want to hear it right now. And you're increasing your own levels of frustration. Drop it. Stop. Treat other people like adults. Let them come. Tell them that you see something and you are ready to listen when they're ready to talk. But it is not your job to enter somebody's life and work it out for them.

That's not how any of this is supposed to go, but we do it all the time. So do you need to drop something? Is there something that you're doing that there's an unspoken agreement about? Like you started doing laundry when you met your partner and you just kept doing laundry and now everybody doesn't think about laundry because you do the laundry. Like there was never a discussion, but there is an unspoken agreement that it's your job that you participated in creating. So do you need to delegate a task? And delegating a task does not mean asking somebody to do it once. It's reminding somebody for three months until it becomes their habit, which is annoying, but too bad. There's no other way to get around it. You participated in this

assumption. Now you have to participate in breaking the assumption. Right. You know, so there's, and then there's a whole bunch of questions to go through to figure out what you need to do, what the action is from resentment to what is the action. Yeah. I would love to talk through some of those questions, but I think the point that's hard to hear, but so necessary is how often, if not the vast majority of the time, we're contributing to the factors that are leading to our own resentment and burnout. Whether it's consciously or unconsciously, we are setting things up to be a certain way, or we're doing something, expecting a certain result and not communicating that. It's tough to hear. Okay. It is tough to hear. And I don't want to say that burnout is your fault

because you act these ways because of systems that got created because of the culture that you live in. Breaking this down is hard ass work. So I'm not saying this is your fault. I know that a lot of these things you're not choosing. They were on automatic pilot. But if you don't want to feel like this, you've got to take control of the wheel. You can't be on automatic pilot anymore. So can you give us a few of those questions we could be asking ourselves just for myself. I'll take notes furiously and for our listeners. Yeah. So there's a resentment journal mini course on my website, and this goes through the whole thing. But the first question that I basically said now anyway is,

is this something that actually needs to be done? Like once you've written down some resentments and you're looking at them and you look at one and you ask the question, does this even need to be done? So this person that I was giving an example of, she's frustrated and resentful that this person is not taking her advice. Do you need to be giving the advice at all? If you do not need to be giving the advice at all because it's none of your business and nobody asked you for anything, drop it. That's the answer is to drop it. The next question is, if it needs to be done, it has to be done, like you have to do your laundry, am I the person that needs to do it?

Really challenge that. Do you actually need to be doing this thing? Right. So I had a client at one point that was saying that she takes all of her family's clothes. She folds them, puts them in individual baskets and everybody gets a basket in their room. And she's out of her mind because in two days, the clothes are still in the basket. They are now unfolded and they never got put away. And I said, does your 12 year old care that they're wearing wrinkled clothing? She said, no. I said, why do you? And we stopped. I said, don't fold the clothes. Separate them if you want into baskets. Don't fold them. Don't don't bother. And she was like, yeah, but my kids are going to go to school wrinkly. I said, yeah. And if they get made fun of, they'll start folding their clothes or learning to iron until then they don't care. Yeah. You know, like I get that that's how I get that it's hard because you want your family to represent you a certain way. You know, your kids are a reflection of you. You know what? Your kids are their own people. Get out of their business a little bit. You can't let them make all their own decisions.

Their prefrontal cortices are not developed until they're 25. So I'm not saying allow them to make all their decisions. But if you're losing your mind about clothes being folded in the laundry basket that your kids really don't care about either. Yeah. No, nothing. Just get stopped. Yeah. You know, such a good example. It's a, it's one that I hear a lot. So if something needs to be done and you're the person that needs to do it, is there a tool or a software or a method or a process that you can upgrade to that would make it easier. So that the actual event is less annoying to you. So my mother hates cooking, has always hated cooking, is just not a fan of it. And so she never spent any money on kitchen gear. Because why would she spend money on something that she doesn't like? And one day I was visiting,

I was living in Europe at the time I was home visiting. And I was like, ma, you have the shittiest pans and your knives do not cut. And she was like, yeah, I don't care about that. I said, yeah, but you hate doing this. Don't you think it would feel better if you had the best, safest, nonstick pans that you could find that you can afford, right? Because everybody has a budget that they have to think about the best thing that you can afford and knives that are actually sharp so that chopping vegetables, which you hate to do becomes a little bit easier. I bought her a whole new set, all the things I bought, all the things. Two weeks later, she was like, God, this isn't as bad as it used to be. Yeah.

No kidding. So if there's something that's really bugging you, is there a tool and you have your, has to be done. You're the person that has to do it. Is there a tool or a process that you can upgrade to that will make it just a little bit easier? You might still be a little annoyed, but to take the edge off a little. I'm thinking as you're talking about like Instacart, you know, how many people I talk to who are like, I hate grocery shopping. And it's like, pay the $10 and have it all show up and take that hour of your life back or two hours of your life back.

It's account drive time and all the stuff, whatever. Especially because most of your basket you can put on repeat. There's going to be some special things you buy week to week, but a lot of things you just buy every damn week, click repeat, make it easy. Right. And then if those are not, if this doesn't solve the scenario, then we're into a boundary situation where you there, there's going to be a need to set boundaries. And the next set of questions dive into, is this a boundary you need to set with yourself where you need to stop engaging with things that are none of your business? Because sometimes this isn't an actual do, not a thing that you can drop, but like an emotional engagement in something.

Or is this a conversation that you actually have to have with another person? You're being exploited. They're not understanding. There's something else is happening where you really need to set a boundary. And once you figure that out, you can make a plan to work on the internal boundary and sort of work on keeping your own energy where it belongs or plan out how you're going to have a conversation with whoever it needs to be about a boundary that you need to set. It might be your HR professional. It might be your boss. It might be your partner. It might be your kid. But if you know that that's the solution, you can at least work on it. Right. Is there some value if it's a conversation with another person

of coming in like a little bit neutral or like, yes, you know, not, not blame, shake your finger, yell. Cause then everybody gets on the defensive and you're not much further than where you start. Yeah. So I, my method for this is to use a design, a conversation design that I call a devil angel human. And the first thing that you do is write out what you would say to this person. If you didn't have to hold back at all. Like if you could write, if you could say all the real things that are happening in your head, all the words, all the nasty, all the things that you're even embarrassed to be thinking, write them out, get it out. I have to burn that shit after I wrote it. You have to burn that shit.

Highly recommended to not keep the paper anywhere anyone could find it. This should be embarrassing. Like it should be severe enough to be embarrassing. Then you write the angel version, which is like the uber kind, maybe a little passive aggressive, you like, you know, taking care of everything and being overly there. So you do both versions and then you read them one after the other. And there should be kind of one sentence or one idea that repeats in both of them. And that one idea or sentence is the actual fact that needs addressing. That has no emotion attached to it at all. It's the fact that needs addressing. I got hired for salaried work. I'm salaried at 40 hours a week and I've been working 45 and I can't

anymore. There's nothing emotional about that statement. It's just a fact. So allowing yourself to go through this, hiding the fact in emotions will allow you to pick the fact out so that you can create a conversation based just around that. So I think that neutrality that you mentioned is incredibly important to me and something that I teach my clients very frequently. I really like that you said that that way. I don't know if you've experienced this, but we talk a lot about, I talk a lot about setting boundaries. And I think sometimes we make it sound, or I make it sound like you set a boundary and everything works beautifully and everybody feels better. And there's often like an initial, almost like doubt, fear, loss that can happen when you

set a boundary. Any advice about how to go through that or what that might look like? You know, not all the sunshine rainbows version of setting a boundary, but the hard parts. So for me, when you set a boundary, there's the first thing that you have to understand is that you've been playing a game with someone for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, and you are about to come in and change the rules on them with no warning. You might think that there's been warnings. There haven't been. Because if there had been, this conversation would have already happened. You've been passive aggressive. They

haven't heard you. So you're about to go in and change the rules of the game. The first thing that you have to understand is that both of you are going to have some emotions about this. So the initial conversation is, hey, here's the fact. Let's come back to this in a couple of days because everybody is allowed to react. I had a client recently who was talking about in a business. She went through all these changes and then she was always kind of like the mama bear, you know, done taking care of everybody, like fend for yourselves, kind of. And she was like, I country especially that when we interact with people, we're affecting each other. And it's important to just remember that fact. So start with the idea that you're both going to have some emotions about it. And it's probably going to take longer than you want to get to a better understanding. And your initial goal might not be the thing that you end up getting because just because you decided you need a boundary doesn't mean that that person doesn't have a boundary too. And you have to meet at a different place than you originally

expected. Whenever I see on Instagram, like no is a complete sentence. I want to like shake my screen. That's not how we interact with one another. That's not how we create relationships. And I'm sorry, none of us can do this life alone. So be gentle with each other. Leave space for it. Come back to it when you're ready. Repeat it. If you need to get help to figure it out,

hire someone. It can be a counselor. It could be a mediator. It could be a coach. But if you're having trouble having the conversation, have somebody help you have the conversation because these are hard things to do. Yeah, they are so hard, especially as you said, I find it hardest with the relationships I'm closest to and where the situation has been in place for many, many years. A stranger on the internet, no is a complete answer in some cases, right? Yes. But I often think no is a complete answer, but healthy communication is going to create win-wins. Amen. But it's so it's easier said than done. You said, I've heard you say

to avoid thorns and wiggle room. I'd love if you clarify that as my thorns and wiggle room in boundaries is the thorns are passive aggressiveness and sarcasm. Anything that you are saying where your intent is to teach a lesson, if you're like, I'll show them why they've been bothering me and why this is a problem and now they'll understand because they didn't understand me before. The problem was not understanding. That wasn't the issue. It might be, but it's not often. So if you are trying to teach someone a lesson in some sort of snarky way, the boundary that you're trying to set is not going to be heard because the only thing they're going to hear is the snark. They're only going to hear the passive aggressiveness. They're only going to

hear the sarcasm. You're not going to actually get the lesson you think is going to come through is not coming through. So that's a thorn. Wiggle room is I would love to, but my schedule is full right now, but wiggle room is anything that you present to the other side, which allows them to come back and offer a different solution. Can we talk this week? And you say, oh, but you don't want to talk to this person at all. And you're like, oh, I'm booked this week. They're like, can we talk next week? It's not a boundary if there's wiggle room, if there's space for negotiation. My favorite on emails is, let me know if you have any questions. Don't say that unless you want to be answering people's questions, because first of But if you don't, if you think that what you wrote was clear and then you're like, let me know if you have any questions, you're being a little passive aggressive because you're like, did you understand what I said? Are you dumb?

So wiggle room is any additional wording to a boundary or a message that allows somebody space to come in and negotiate when you don't want them to. I'm guilty of doing both. And even again, being mindful of it, I made this shit up and I still do it. And I will say my go-to is thorns, like, especially when I'm burnt out or feeling really frustrated. Like I do have a tendency to say things that I could very easily add on you idiot at the end. Cause that's like the tone and where it's like, I did mention that I'd be awfully busy this week. Yeah. You idiot. Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, I'm glad it's not just me. No, no, no. There's a lot of us.

I really could keep talking about this topic forever. Thank you, Kate. There's so many good takeaways and good questions. If you are listening and you want to learn more about burnout and connect with Kate, the best place is to check out her podcast, fried the burnout podcast. Uh, Kate, thank you so much for helping me today. I already feel calmer than I did going into our conversation. And thank you for being brave enough to admit that you participate in some of these things that most of us won't admit to. Oh, well, such as life. All right. I know I just took as much out of this episode as anyone else listening because preventing burnout efficiently and effectively leveraging our resentment and communicating healthy boundaries is hardest when you're stressed and overwhelmed. It's also when it's most important. Let's do it

together. Less perfection, more real life. Less martyr, more grace. Less worry, more trust. Less other people's expectations, more honoring ourselves. Less default yes, more healthy boundaries. Less fried, more fire. This is woman's work.