This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 207 / How To Financially Protect Yourself In Your Romantic Relationship with Anna N’Jie-Konte

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

We’re talking about money! More specifically, we’re going to talk about money in our romantic relationships, because let’s face it – love is not all you need.  Money is the 3rd wheel in many relationships. And it’s not really about money, it’s the habits, goals, and beliefs – because when any of those are not the same, it causes stress in that relationship. Don’t believe me? Well, 89% of people polled (according to Forbes) believe that financial stability is necessary for a happy and successful relationship. I’ve invited Anna N’Jie-Konte, President of Re-Envision Wealth as our guest. Anna is a passionate believer in the empowerment and economic liberation of women and minorities and has been honored as an Investopedia Top 100 Financial Advisor, been named one of 2023’s “Hot List” by Investment News and 10 “Young Advisors to Watch” by Financial Advisor Magazine. Anna also serves on the advisory board of Wealth.com. as a CFP Board Ambassador, and as a board member of the Finserv Foundation. We must have these money conversations early and often. Because money doesn’t buy love, but it sure can bankrupt a relationship – so it’s time to build a healthy, productive, empowered relationship with your finances and then bring that to your relationships. Connect with Anna: Website: www.re-envisionwealth.com  Newsletter: www.annanjiekonte.com/signup  IG: @anjiekonte Join the Club: https://bit.ly/FinancialPowerhouseTheClub The Club is an amazing, no-fluff community for first-gen women who want to feel financially fluent and break negative financial cycles. Whether you’re just getting started or are a seasoned investor- this is for you. Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Thanks to our This Is Woman’s Work Sponsor: If you’re looking for the next best thing to a no-bra day, go to cakesbody.com and use my promo code TIWW for 10% off your Lounge Layer Bra (whether you order 1 or 5 of them). And then thank me later.

Have you ever loved something so much that you go back and buy it in every single color they have and then buy a few more of the same color just in case one needs to be washed on a day where you want to wear it? Yeah, I get that now. Because Cake's Body, who crushed it on Shark Tank a few months ago and who were featured as guests on this very podcast when they were getting started, recently released their Lounge Layer Bra. And I'll be honest that I ordered my first one mostly to be supportive and because I know that they only create great products. But after wearing my lounge bra for an unacceptable six days in a row, I ordered four more. So now it's not so embarrassing to admit that I wear one every single day. So if you're looking for the next best

thing to a no-bra day, go to cakesbody.com and use my promo code TIWW for 10% off, whether you order one or five of them. And then you can thank me later. It's Financial Literacy Month, so let me share a few statistics. Women are investing more than ever before, with 67% of women investing outside of just retirement savings. And they're better at it, outperforming their male counterparts by 40 basis points. And they invest according to their values, taking into account sustainability, social, and governance when investing. And yet, there is still a gender investing gap. So what's holding us back?

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, women earn 83 cents for every dollar, even less if you're a woman of color than their male counterparts. So they just don't have as much disposable income to save or to invest. They also don't have as much time given all the unpaid household and caretaking work that we do. And here's the real kicker for me. We lack the confidence. It's not lack of knowledge or experience so much anymore. It's lack of confidence. We perceive our investor knowledge to be less. We rate ourselves as less competent, even when the evidence doesn't support that perception. Now, bridging the wage gap and creating more equitable households seems like a big challenge to solve, and it's definitely complex. But our

confidence, so that's something we can all do something about. I am Nicole Kalil, and on this episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk about money. More specifically, we're going to talk about money in our romantic relationships, because let's face it, love is not all you need. Call me a cynic, but money is the third wheel in many relationships. And it's not really about the money. It's about the habits, goals, and beliefs. Because when any of those are not the same, it causes stress in our relationships. Don't believe me?

Well, 89% of people polled, according to Forbes, believe that financial stability is necessary for a happy and successful relationship. 89%. So before I introduce my guest, I need to disclose that I have a long history within the finance industry. So I have some personal beliefs and biases that I'm going to try to either be very upfront about or attempt to keep them out of the conversation altogether. So the one I need to share right off the bat is that I believe that nobody should ever abdicate their money in a relationship. I don't care if one person is making all the money and the other is making none, you still stay involved in the conversations and the decisions.

You may decide to delegate, but never abdicate. I also firmly believe that the work inside the home parents or stay-at-home moms, as they previously were called, should get paid a stipend from the household income, but that's another topic for another day. So let me introduce our guest. As the president of Re-Envision Wealth, Ana Ndjai-Kante is a passionate believer in the empowerment and economic liberation of women and minorities. She is committed to serving the financial needs of Black and Brown communities and value-aligned households who want to see

a more equitable world, which if you know anything about the world of finance, is a pretty clear distinction that she has. Ana has been featured in too many notable publications to list. She has been honored as Investopedia Top 100 Financial Advisor, been named one of 2023's Hot List by Investment News, and 10 Young Advisors to Watch by Financial Advisor Magazine. Ana also serves on the advisory board of Wealth.com as a CFP board ambassador and as a board member of the FinServ Foundation. Ana, thank you so much for joining me to talk about this incredibly important topic. Let me start by asking, do you also believe that women or anybody should not abdicate the money or do you want

to challenge that? A hundred percent. I think there's a lot of reasons more than I could count as to why it's a bad idea. But if I think about, you know, two of the main ones, one, I think that if you are completely detached from your money, you're putting yourself at a risk of if there's an emergency or something happens, your spouse passes away or your spouse is incapacitated for some reason, then you have absolutely no idea where things are. You don't know how things work. You don't know where you're supposed to be looking for that. And I've seen entirely too many,

especially older clients get into that position where, you know, they've been married 40 years, their spouse passes away and they don't even know how to pay a bill. They don't know what the mortgage company is. They don't know where the investment accounts are held. That's just so problematic. And it adds a layer of stress that is unnecessary to this already really tragic and stressful situation. That's one. On a more kind of less tragic, less catastrophic note, I think that if one person is handling the money and the other is completely unaware of what's happening, that leads you to be exposed to a risk that you don't necessarily want. One is they might be mismanaging the money and you have absolutely no idea. And then you look up and realize that your financial situation is

not as great as you thought it was. That's one. The other, I think is a little bit less difficult or hard, but it's still a problem where one spouse might have a different risk tolerance, a different perspective on money, a different spending style. And so if they are making all the decisions and even if they're not necessarily bad decisions, if they're not in alignment with what you want and with what your preferences are, then that's also not great. And it's a situation that I see a lot, especially when folks come from cultures with traditional gender norms where that is really pronounced.

You know, it can feel hard to bring up those conversations, but I want everybody who's listening to this to really understand that you have every right to have a say in where your money is and how it's invested and how it's going, especially if we're talking about women working right now. You're earning an income, and so you have a right to say where it goes and what it's doing. All great points, and I love this. Most decisions that are made collaboratively are just better,

right? Getting those two perspectives, those two different risk challenges, those two different life experiences, and bringing those to the table, I think just generally make for better decisions. Would you agree? I totally agree because we all have blind spots and we can be short-sighted in certain areas. And so I think in this instance, two plus two is not four, it's 10, where someone might not necessarily be thinking about all these other issues that might happen. Or I have a lived experience where I saw certain things happen in my family and so I might have another perspective of something that my spouse has never thought about.

Great tips there. So when do we start talking about it? I have a belief early and often, but money often falls into the same category as religion or deeply held personal beliefs that you're not supposed to bring up on a first date. So if we're talking about romantic relationships and money, when do we begin to have these conversations and any tips on how to do that? Yeah, I think it should be as early as possible because what you don't want to do, just like with anything, right? You don't want to get a year into a relationship and know that you want children. And then you realize that the person you've been dating for a year doesn't want children. I think it's a similar kind of thing where you want to have that conversation early enough to where as you're saving yourself some unnecessary heartache,

if this person is vastly unaligned with your own financial aspirations or your financial style, right? You know, money's not everything. And I think in this world where women are outstriping men in terms of college achievement, in terms of starting businesses and their income, more and more women are the brick withers in households. I don't think that it needs to be a deal breaker if that person is, has less financial resources than you, but if they are not responsible or not mindful and are not intentional with it, I think, and you are, I think that's a big red flag and something we well serve to know sooner rather than later. Agreed. I want to talk about red flags in a second, but any tips, like how to

even bring that up or what to be looking for to determine? Because I agree, we're in a stage where it's unlikely that both people are going to be making the exact same income. And we're seeing more and more where women are out earning their spouses. And I remember, I mean, this wasn't that long ago, but I remember feeling not shame, but like embarrassed to bring that up or awkward about it the very least. So I guess what are we looking for and how do we bring this up? Yeah. So whenever folks are feeling apprehensive around bringing up the topic of money, either in a romantic situation or even just having conversations with parents or siblings or other folks in their life, I always tell them to kind of use an easy on-ramp. So to say things like, oh, I was just rebalancing

my 401k this morning and I was super excited to see that my investments had grown and just bring that up and kind of see where the conversation goes. I find that that's a lot more successful bringing it up in sort of a side or indirect way to whereas you can get that person talking about their money. And you can do that a little bit. That's a lot more approachable versus saying, hey, by the way, I know you're picking the line for dinner, but also can you tell me how much debt you have? Can you tell me what what your retirement account balances are? Like, that's really awkward. And so I and I think that sends folks defenses up. And, you know, this is a topic that's hard for most people, regardless of gender to discuss. But if you bring it up as a very normal thing, I think it seems to go better. I like that a lot. I also think bringing

up when you talk about goals, future goals, do you have any financial goals? I think that that's an approachable conversation. Or even like, I might not have time to get together this day because I always handle all my bills on the first of the month. Just the normal day-to-day bringing up and seeing what they say, I really like that strategy. I don't know if you see this too, but I've often found that there's one person in the relationship who takes the lead on the finances. They often pay the bills or handle the accounts, that type of thing. What are some ways to make sure that both people are always in the know about the finances?

Once there's a committed relationship, whether that's marriage or you're living together or you're combining finances, what are some ways that we can make sure that those conversations are happening in a consistent and productive way? So there's a difference. I think we need to be very intentional about divorcing the idea of, I'm the one who's actually executing on the financial strategy or paying the bills or contributing to the investment accounts, you know, whatever that is versus I'm the one making the decisions. Like those are two different things. And so what happens a lot of times is folks overlap those and they make them mean the same thing where it's not. So as an example, um, you

know, I am the one that pays most of the bills in my household because my husband just will forget about things and won't open the mail. I pay the bills. Right. Um, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know where the money's going. He has complete transparency over our bank accounts. We share the same bank accounts. He can log into anything whenever he wants. And, you know, my goal is to tell folks to have regular check-ins, like have a money date and just check in. Let's talk about the financial goals. Let's make sure that the goals that we're working towards and we're, um, you know, putting money away or paying down debt for are still what our priorities are right now. Um, see what our progress is. I think that helps with motivation and sticking with it. And also I think it, it gives you an opportunity to express any doubts or concerns

you might have over your financial situation. And I think, you know, doing that in a way that's intentional. So if you have kids, I always recommend folks like don't do it when the kids are around, do it when they're asleep or do it when they're at grandma's house or whatever. Like it's just important to have that dedicated time and, you know, try to make it fun. So go out to brunch and have your conversation around your finances or, you know, have a glass of wine and kind of put on some nice music and talk about it. Like whatever, whatever is going to work for you all. But having that as a kind of regularly scheduled date or commitment is really helpful. So Jay and I, we do something called family forecasting where we get together once a quarter and we talk through our goals, personal

business. We talk through our finances. We talk through our calendar. We talk through our parenting goals. And I'm telling you, it's probably, I mean, I don't know that our relationship's ever been in trouble, so I can't say that it saved our marriage, but maybe it's never really been in that deep of trouble because we do things like this. Okay. So what are some of the different ways that couples or people in romantic relationships are structuring their finances without giving up complete control? So any thoughts or input on that? Yeah. So I think there's this pressure to have everything be joint and to have all of the money come together and to, you know, just have one big bucket and that's where everything comes from. I think that works for some people. Um, it's really going to, I think that's the simplest way, candidly, like everything's there. There's a ton of transparency, but it doesn't allow for a ton of autonomy in terms of personal expenditures, right? So if I want to go out for dinner with my girlfriends, then I'm putting that on the

joint account. Or, you know, even if I want to buy my spouse a gift for their birthday, then, you know, they're going to see that expenditure too and know exactly what I spent. And so, you know, that's one option as well. I think the other extreme is keeping things really separate and that's okay as well. Um, that might work if there's a blended family situation, if there is a really big, disparate kind of risk tolerance or financial preferences where folks really can't come meet in the middle, they're too far apart in terms of how they manage things.

That requires a lot more communication and a lot more coordination in my vantage point. I think you still have to have a ton of transparency around the financial situation. Otherwise, it's just a band-aid on a really dysfunctional relationship dynamic. But that's also a valid option too. And then what I think is the happy medium is really

joint but separate. So you have joint accounts, you might have joint bank savings, investment accounts, non-retirement investment accounts. You have that stuff jointly. Any household expenses are probably going to come from that joint account. Retirement contributions and things like that are going to come from the joint funds as well., retirement contributions and things like that are going to come from the joint funds as well. And then everybody kind of has their own checking or maybe credit card that they are using for their own expenditures. So, you know, if I want to go on a vacation with my girlfriends, I can go, that's something

I pay out of my own expenditures. If I want to go shopping, you know, that, that allows a lot of independence while also maintaining a lot of transparency and alignment in the household expenditures. And I think that also makes the most sense when you have kids because the kids' expenses have just come out of that joint account instead of, you know, one person paying for the kid's daycare and the other person paying for the mortgage. I don't think that makes a ton of sense, but it's also a very personal decision. Absolutely a personal decision. And I can attest to the joint but separate. That's how we've been doing it. The vast majority of our relationship, it stemmed from an early fight

about socks. We were supposed to be saving money. We just bought a house or whatever. And my husband bought these really expensive socks. And I was like, what are you doing? He's like, but they were on sale. And we just, you know, big beef about socks. And we finally recognized that we don't want to be getting permission from each other to spend our fun money in the way, in whatever way we deem great for us. What are some of the financial red flags that we should be paying attention to as we build and develop our relationships? Are there any deal breakers? So many, so many. One is, you know, I talked a little bit about tactics for how to bring up money. If that person never bites or very clearly is always avoiding answering your little tidbits that you're trying to plan, that's a red flag.

And not to say that, like, that just tells me that they are either have a dysfunctional relationship with money or they're very ashamed of their financial situation or they're just hyper secretive they could have lots of money and just be really secretive and evasive about it none of those are good in my opinion i think if they're unwilling to talk about money at all that's another one or if you know they're hiding expenditures, hiding things financially. I think that's also a red flag. This is going to vary depending on what stage in a relationship you're in. But if you're married and you can never have a conversation about money, you can never

get specifics from that person. You can never talk through specifics. That's a huge red flag. Agreed. What about prenups and postnups? When does that need to be a conversation? Oh, I think it, I think it needs to be a conversation whenever there's a very disparate, like income asset conversation. Um, or if you are in line to receive a substantial inheritance it's also something to think about if there's a family business that you might inherit

a portion of like all of that is is a situation in which it makes sense to have the conversation of a prenup post up is essentially a prenup that you sign after marriage so it dictates what's mine, what's yours, what's the joint asset, what's going to be split. I had a situation a couple of years ago with a client who, you know, she, there never really been a big difference between what she earned and what her husband earned, maybe about 25% or so. So not a small amount, but nothing crazy. Um, but she has started a side hustle. She has started a blog. She had started some, some different consulting that she was doing on the side.

And this thing blew up over a couple of years to, whereas, you know, it had been earning a couple hundred dollars a month and it moved to multiple six figures in a year, almost to seven figures. And so, you know, I brought up the conversation to her about, it might make sense to do a post-nup to protect yourself should something go south in your relationship. Fast forward about a year from that conversation, they're getting divorced. And this is a woman who, you know, had started off with nothing in the relationship, had built up a whole lot because of the fruits of her hard work with this business. And she was able to walk away from that without having to pay alimony, without having to,

you know, give her spouse any portion of those assets that she had built up. And it was really a wake up call to me to also think about post-sums very intentionally, because I think it provides a, we go into relationships with this idea of it's going to last forever. And we have a kind of idea of what the arc of our life is going to be, but that can change a lot based on a lot of times based on our own aspirations and our own efforts. And so that's a way for us to ensure that fruits of our hard work have been protected without, you know, having to worry about giving someone all of that when they might not necessarily have materially contributed to it. So what would you say to

people? I'm not one of them, but I know that there are people who believe that doing a prenup or postnup or having that conversation is like a breakdown in trust? Or like, if you trusted me, we wouldn't have to do that. I think the reality is anybody who's witnessed divorces, either personally or gone through one, will know that when emotions are high, people do not think very clearly. And this is really just a way for people to have that clear thinking and to have that, have those decisions made before everybody's emotions are high and they're not thinking clearly. It's, it's really, um, sad to witness folks in a relationship breakdown where they are no longer able to think about what's best for themselves, the other person and their children, because, you know, their hearts are broken because their relationship has broken down. Um, I think this is really just a way to,

to preempt that. I'd also just say that it's not necessarily about trust. It's about protection. You can trust that other person with your life. I would assume you do because you're married to them. You can trust them with everything you have, but at the same time, it's about making sure that your own interests are protected and that the fruits of your hard work are protected in a way that serves you and your potential children if you have them. Yeah, I often think I trust these people or this person when things are, and I'm just going to put in air quotes, normal. But as you talked about earlier, when somebody is heartbroken or angry or depressed or dealing with something completely out of their control, or there are so many things that can contribute to us behaving differently or not listening to our logical mind and listening to our emotions at a

much higher level. And I wouldn't want to risk anything that I care about at a high level. And I wouldn't want anybody to risk that with me either, by the way. When I'm pissed off, I'm a hothead. I should not be making any sort of smart decisions during those moments. So yeah, I couldn't agree more. Okay. If you're listening and you want to learn more about Ana and her work or to get access to her newsletter, go to ananajaykanti.com. We'll put that in show notes. And then Ana, will you tell us a little bit about Financial Powerhouse, the club that you offer? I think my listeners would absolutely be interested in that. Yeah.

So Financial Powerhouse, the club is a membership community where we have calls twice a month. And we talk about different financial topics from debt payoff to investing. We talk about buying homes. We talk about investing in real estate. We talk about anything soup to nuts. And really my goal is to empower more women to have the financial knowledge they need to build wealth for themselves and their families. So, um, you know, it's for everyone and from just getting started all the way to someone who might be a little bit more advanced, like wherever you land, there's a spot for you there. Um, we have one call where I just teach a concept and the other is just

an opportunity for you to ask questions. Um, if you're working through the material and you have some questions around, like, how does this apply to your situation? You can just raise your hand and ask me. Um, there's lots of different tools and checklists and things like that that I provide to the members as well to help them build their financial confidence and build their financial sophistication as well. An incredible resource. And we will put the link to that in show notes as well. I'm assuming there's a link on your website if they just go there. Okay. Awesome. Ana, thank you for this very important conversation and for your wise tips. I appreciate you joining me today. All right. Have the conversations early and often. Build loving, trusting relationships. Choose the structure that works best for you

and never, ever abdicate the money. You do not and likely will not need to be an expert on all things finance. Find advisors you trust like Ana. Share your goals, learn, grow, but still never ever abdicate the money. Confidence isn't about having all the answers. The most confident people are open and curious and know when they need advice and outside resources and perspectives. And confidence isn't putting all of your trust completely in another person. It's trusting yourself firmly and boldly to make the best right decisions for you and what matters most. And money does not buy love, but it sure as shit can bankrupt a relationship.

So it's time to build a healthy, productive, empowered relationship with your finances and then bring that to your relationships. Money confidence. It is woman's work.