This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 208 / What It Means To Be Codependent At Work with Amina AlTai

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

Codependency is not just happening at home. It’s happening in our professional lives, our work environments and relationships too. But I’m not so sure we’re hearing much about that, so we’re going to dive into the topic of codependency at work on this episode of This Is Woman’s Work. Amina AlTai is a holistic business and career coach, proud immigrant and chronic illness advocate and our guest on today’s episode. In addition to her one-on-one work with forward thinking and notable leaders, executives and founders, Amina was also a founding coach for Chief (the women’s leadership organization) and led the coaching division for Inspire Justice (which trains entertainment organizations and celebrities). She is an Entrepreneur Magazine expert-in-residence, a Forbes contributor and was named one of Success Magazine’s Women of Influence. Her debut book, The Ambition Trap: A Blueprint for Releasing Hustle, Finding Purpose and Driving Change will launch in Spring 2025.  Here are a few things to keep in mind so we don’t create codependency in our work lives: Our strengths taken too far can easily become our greatest weakness There is a difference between empowering people and enabling them Being needed is not the same as being valued Connect with Amina: Website: https://aminaaltai.com/  IG: https://www.instagram.com/aminaaltai  FB: https://www.facebook.com/aminaaltai  Change Your Life Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/amina-change-your-life/id1669584137  Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Thanks to our This Is Woman’s Work Sponsor: Breathe better with AirDoctor, the air purifier that filters out 99.99% of dangerous contaminants (allergens, pollen, pet dander, dust mites, mold spores and even bacteria and viruses) so your lungs don’t have to. Visit airdoctorpro.com and use my promo code: TIWW to get up to $300 OFF air purifiers and a free 3 year warranty (and additional $84 value).

I am Nicole Kalil, and on this episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to take a dive into the topic of codependency, but not in the way you're probably thinking. When you hear the word, I'm guessing it mostly brings to mind somebody in a romantic relationship who has become a martyr to their partner's needs, prioritizing them above themselves. I'd bet most of us visualize a woman first when we think of codependency, because let's face it, we've been socialized from a very young age to care for, prioritize, and please others. So maybe it's not that big of a stretch that we'd over-rotate to codependency in some cases. Maybe it's the wife who covers for her husband's addictions, or a mother who enables unhealthy or

dangerous behaviors of their child, or a mom who pulls some strings or somehow always assumes their child is the victim and never ever part of the problem. But it's not just women, and it's not just wives and mothers. Codependency shows up in all genders, all cultures, all races, and there seems to be a pretty clear link for codependency to be more common among those who've experienced trauma themselves or grew up in environments where substance use or mental health disorders existed. And friend, codependency is not just happening at home. It's happening in our professional lives, in our work environments, and relationships too. But I'm not so sure we're hearing much about that. So I've invited Amina Altai to join us

today. Amina is a holistic business and career coach, proud immigrant, and chronic illness advocate. In addition to her one-on-one work with forward-thinking and notable leaders, executives, and founders, Amina was also a founding coach for CHIEF, the Women's Leadership Organization, and led the coaching division for Inspire Justice, which trains entertainment organizations and celebrities. She's an entrepreneur magazine expert in residence, a Forbes contributor, and was named one of Success Magazine's Women of Influence. Her debut book, The Ambition Trap, a blueprint for releasing hustle, finding purpose, and driving change, will launch in spring of 2025.

Amina's mastery is connecting us to our brilliance and teaching us to live and lead from it each day, and I am thrilled that she is here to share some wisdom. Okay, Amina, thank you for being here. And as I mentioned in my intro, I think most of us have heard the term codependency in our personal relationships, but what does it mean to be codependent at work? Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Nicole. And this is such an important topic, especially in the context of our work. As you talked about in the intro, so many of us think that that is a term that is reserved for relationships, but it's not, right? Because everywhere we go, there we are. Everywhere we go, there our traits are. And so I loosely define

codependency as when we're dependent on another person or thing for all of our meaning and worthiness. And so it's really a behavioral pattern that can include high self-sacrifice, sacrificing our own needs, prioritizing other people's needs, suppression of our own emotions, and this attempt to fix and control other people and things as a way of sort of keeping ourselves safe and feeling valuable and worthy. And so you can imagine that that would also show up at work, right? Where we put other people's needs before our own, where we self-sacrifice by pulling the all-nighters, where we don't honor our own emotions and feelings, we don't set boundaries.

And so it can happen to the best of us. No doubt. And I appreciate, because I was going to ask, what are some of the warning signs? I think you gave us them, generally speaking, and a few examples of how they might be showing up at work. What would you say to the person listening who is like, no, but I'm just going above and beyond, or I'm just, and I put in air quotes, proving myself, that might argue that that is effective behavior, not dysfunctional or codependent behavior. Yeah. And the line is for us to decide, right? We get to decide what is supportive and proving ourselves and our value and what is dysfunctional. However, there is a line and we want to ask ourselves, are we crossing the line? And I think it's really

important to live what I call above the resentment line. So if you feel like you're getting resentful at work, like you're overgiving, like you're doing other people's jobs, like you're the one that's spinning all the plates and making sure that nothing drops and you're feeling resentful, there's likely some codependent traits that might be taking place there. And I also think it's not universally true, but I think burnout can also play a role in codependency, right? So if we're overgiving so much, we're self-sacrificing so much, we're so boundaryless, we can actually tip into burnout. And that was actually my story earlier in my career. I was really living into those codependent traits, deeply boundaryless, taking care of everybody but myself. And I eventually burned out and developed two autoimmune diseases. So it's not universally true,

but burnout can be an indication of the overgiving, the self-sacrifice, the denying our needs. I could see how that would be sort of a logical conclusion to some of these behaviors. So in preparation for our time together, I saw something that you said where generosity can become dysfunctional. What does that mean and what does that look like at work? I love this question. I also feel like you did such great research. Even the intro, I'm like, oh, where'd you get all these tidbits? I love it. Thanks. I love this stuff. I could do it all day long. Great. I love it too. So generosity is a beautiful thing. I think it's so important to be generous. It's one of my favorite traits. However, when we are giving

way more than we're receiving, that's when we start to get into dysfunction. I think it's so important to be generous. It's one of my favorite traits. However, when we are giving way more than we're receiving, that's when we start to get into dysfunction. I think that giving and receiving are like breath. We need to inhale as much as we exhale in order to be in right relationship and to feel alive. And I think the same goes with our giving and receiving. Are you overgiving? And why are you overgiving?

The why, I think, is one of the highest yield places for us to find information. Are we overgiving because we feel a lack of worthiness or are we overgiving because we have a true desire and that feels really good and it makes us feel whole and alive and purpose aligned? But oftentimes the why is where the dysfunction lies. And that was true for me too. And for most of my clients, oftentimes the why is we just don't feel good enough. So we feel like if we give more, it'll somehow make us more valuable. That directly speaks to my experience. I think why I gave was to prove myself, prove myself worthy and valuable. So that definitely speaks to me. When we think about giving and receiving though at work, and this could be true in personal relationships too, but I think very specifically at work, what we give and what we receive may not be the same.

Yep. Right. If we think about structures of work environments or hierarchy or things like that, like I might give of my time and energy and experience, but what I receive might be fair compensation and benefits. So how do we, I don't know if quantify is the right word, how do we look at the ways that we're giving and receiving like breath, I love that analogy, in our workplace to determine if it's working for us? Yeah, it's a beautiful question because you're absolutely right. It's not going to feel like this perfectly even tit for tat. And so when I'm working with my clients, one of the things that I have them do is a list of must-haves, nice-to-haves, and deal-breakers. And that list keeps us in right

relationship with the giving and receiving because you're absolutely right, right? It's not like we're going to give X amount of hours for this and we're going to get X amount of hours back. But if I show up fully and play all out for my role, then I would like this salary. I would like this time off. I would like this support team. And so we want to be really clear on what our must haves are, what our nice haves are, and what our deal breakers are. And then we get to live above the resentment line, right? Because if we're giving and we're playing all out for this role, we're doing a tremendous job, but we're not being paid. We want to be paid. We don't have the right support team. We're going to feel like we're living below the resentment line. So we want to be really clear on what the must haves are, what the deal breakers are, so we can stay above that resentment line.

And a good way to kind of take inventory around this is what I call tolerations. Make a list of what you are tolerating that you need not be tolerating and see if you can raise the standard on those things. So I would invite people listening today to make a list of 10 things that maybe you're tolerating at work that you need not be. Are you tolerating overworking? Are you tolerating being underpaid? Are you tolerating being undersupported? Are you tolerating working weekends?

What are the things that you're tolerating? And I would invite you to circle the top three and see if you can shift those things to feel like you are more in that evenness of the give and receive, the in and the out breath. Phenomenal advice. I'm just curious, any thoughts on this? One of the things I see that happens a lot in work is I have yet to meet an employee who doesn't think they're being underpaid or who wouldn't like to get paid more. And I hear a lot of employers saying, you know, I'm not getting what I want from my employees, or I struggle with finding the best right employees. How do you, I don't know, communicate or come together

or find common ground on something where you think you might be both, like if you look at what you're both tolerating and they don't seem to match up. Is my question making any sense? Totally, totally. You know what's super interesting is I've had people fall into both camps, right? I have people that feel like they're underpaid and they're giving more than they're receiving. And then I have people that feel like, okay, I got the stretch salary number and now I'm tipping into the overgiving because I'm questioning my worthiness. And so it's very interesting to see this spectrum because one does exist. But I think it's actually when we feel like we're being underpaid and we're overgiving, but then our employer feels like, hey, we're paying you really fairly and we feel like

you could give more. I think that we need an expectations realignment because perhaps they're expecting us to show up over here and we're showing up down here. And so I think it's just being really clear on what the expectations of the role are, you know, what it means to knock this out of the park, where our skills are, where our skill gaps may be, and then figuring out how to plug those holes. So we both feel in the space of evenness, because sometimes I think that maybe expectations are that we do this one thing, but we don't have the skills for that one thing. So we're doubling down on another thing, but that's actually not what your employers want. So you feel like you're overworking. They feel like they're not getting what they need. And actually, if we could just come to the table, maybe build out some skills or develop a certain area more, there might be more of that evenness.

Every person listening needs to rewind and listen to that one a few times and then pass it to your employers, employees. I mean, that is so, so good because that, again, speaks completely to my experience. You mentioned must-haves and deal-breakers. How are you distinguishing between the two? What's the difference between a deal-breaker and a must-have? Yeah. So they're not always the opposite of each other. When I do this exercise with my clients, they're like, aren't they just the opposite? Not always, right? So we might say a must-have is I need to make a salary of $150,000. We may say a deal breaker is if they have negative glass door reviews. We may say a must-have is that I work with a manager who can grow and develop me. A deal

breaker is that manager is micromanaging me. And so they're not always the opposite. And there's actually a space in the middle called the nice-to-haves. And I think that this, a lot of the times my clients are like, oh, why do I need to do this list? It's not like the black and white indicator. And I think this list is arguably the most important because when people are interviewing for a job or promotion or things like that, they'll often conflate the nice to haves for one of the other because they want to tell them it's sort of the shiny object. So they'll be like, oh, but I'm getting, you know, a thousand dollars learning and development budget, even though they're paying me

$50,000 less than I want. So like I should take this or I get this really great parking spot, even though this is so out or outside of the area that I want to work in. So we tend to conflate those things to tell ourselves a story. So I think that the nice to haves is one of the most important lists that we could make in addition to the must haves and the deal breakers. I love that. Okay. What is the passion tax? And our preparation, I saw that and I was like, we need to talk about that. I don't know what it is, but we need to talk about it. Yes. Okay. So it's also known as the enthusiasm penalty or enthusiasm exploitation.

So basically those of us that are passionate about our jobs, organizations, people will see that. They're like, oh my gosh, this person really loves what they do. Let's double down. Let's give them more of that thing because they're doing such a great job and they love it. So let's give them more. But what happens is, is then we end up sort of doing double,

triple the work for the same amount of salary. And then we start to feel burned out and resentful. We feel taxed for actually loving the thing that we really want to do. And so it's really important, even if you are passionate about what you do, to still set boundaries around it. Like, I love my job so much. It feels like an honor and a privilege to do this work, but I got some airtight boundaries so that I can actually show up fully in this work. And we need that as well because people will see that we love what we do. And sometimes that gets co-opted and you want to make sure that you still feel really good in that thing and can deliver in the way that you want to. So that just requires really good boundaries. Oh my gosh. I feel like you're speaking specifically to me. I mean, even when we started, before we hit record, we were talking about the podcast. And this is a really good example. Obviously, I'm so passionate about this. I call it my and exhausting. And I think it's because I set aside boundaries

in favor of wanting to keep it on the top of the charts or not wanting to screw things up or, you know, how it would look to other people. I got caught up in that and it almost, you used a different word. I'm going to say hijacks your passion. It almost makes this thing you love and turns it into something else. Yeah. So powerful. Thank you for sharing that story. I think it's so great for all of us to hear that, right? Because it's like, we see you doing this amazing thing and it looks so shiny. And then you're like, but also, sometimes it feels like I'm sacrificing or I'm not feeling fully whole in it. I think that's true for a lot of us. And we think that we have to.

It's like, oh, I'm so lucky to get to do this thing or it's a privilege to get to do this thing. But actually, it gets to feel good too. And I think it's so important, especially for people like you and I and people listening, right? For women, for people of color, if we're doing things that people like us haven't done before, I think it's important that we are in this work for a lifetime and not just a season, right? And if we don't take care of ourselves, if we don't set the boundaries, we'll fizzle fast and then the work fails to exist and then we haven't been

of service. So it's so important that we set the boundaries so that you get to keep delivering this amazing podcast. You keep enriching us. And if you take yourself out, then we all lose out. Yes. I don't know why I'm getting emotional. Thank you. Me too. Okay. So when we think about codependency at work, maybe what are some of the common relationships where you're seeing this happen a lot? Is it employer-employee? Is it people on the same team? Where do you see this show up? Yeah. With my clients, it's very interesting. So we all have core wounds, right? Which are wounds that happen early in our life in the formative years,

generally in our family system, who were raised by culture, subculture, those kinds of things. And those wounds kind of shape us. And oftentimes they're with a primary caregiver, like mom or dad or aunt or uncle, whatever. And it's usually those archetypes that kind of follow us into the workplace. So I was used to like lovingly joke that I would always end up working for a version of my mom. Like I would find this hardworking lady that was super overwhelmed and I'd be like, let me help you put me in coach. And then I would self-sacrifice and take myself out to support this person. I was repeating an earlier dynamic for my life. And then I would self-sacrifice and take myself out to support this person. I was repeating an earlier dynamic for my life. And that happens with a lot of my clients too. So they'll basically find mom or dad in the workplace, a version of them. And then that's sort of where the

codependent relationship can happen. And this doesn't happen for everybody, right? Those of us that have codependency in our families of origin may be more likely to sort of tip into those traits. So it's really important to understand and trace back where they come from. But usually we find the archetype that represents the original wound or the original codependent dynamic. The older and obviously wiser that I get, the more concerned I become about things I never even thought about in my younger years. Things like the quality of my mattress and breathing clean air, just to name a couple. I'm slightly obsessive about my

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just send it back for a refund minus the shipping. Head on over to airdoctorpro.com and use my promo code TIWW and you'll receive up to $300 off air purifiers and a free three-year warranty on any unit. So go lock in that special offer by going to A-I-R-D-O-C-T-O-R-P-R-O, that's airdoctorpro.com and use my promo code TIWW. And now we head back to the show. My mind is blasting over here. And again, so applicable to my life and experience. So let's say people listening are doing what I'm doing right now is noticing some of those relationships or those patterns, whether it's current or historical. What do we do? Like we recognize we're in a work relationship that's not working for us

that might be codependent. What are our next steps? Yeah, that's a great question. So I think I believe that 80% of it is awareness. The minute you see it, you're going to see it everywhere. And when we see it, we start to actually change behavior and show up differently. So I think awareness is such a big part of this. And then you want to make a list of where it's getting dysfunctional for you. So you could go back to those tolerations, right? So what are you tolerating that you need not be? Are you over giving to this person? Do you lack the ability to say no to this person? Are you prioritizing this person's needs above your own? And so making a list of where the dynamic is dysfunctional and then one by one asking yourself if you can shift this thing.

And I would start one by one because shifting codependency is really hard work because we get a payoff from it, right? In my codependent history, it made me feel like the star employee. It made me feel like I was supporting people and doing good. So we get a payoff from it. And so it can feel really trippy to kind of release that behavior and come back to ourselves. And sometimes it feels like, well, who am I to prioritize myself? Or I should prioritize this person. So we have to do some of that unwiring and mindset shifting too. So I would say just be really loving with yourself and go one thing at a time. If it's,

I actually have a really hard time saying no to this person, let's practice saying no for the next 30 days. Not to everything, right? But to the areas where you start to feel like you're living below the resentment line, just practice that no. And you can practice it in lower stakes spaces. So Brittany Packnett Cunningham has this TED Talk on confidence and she talks about how confidence needs permission to exist and community is the safest place to try it on. So if you're new to saying no, and it feels too high stakes to say it to your manager or whomever you're in that codependent dynamic with, can you practice it with a friend? Can you practice it in a community, more loving space that feels a bit safer?

So then you go back to work and you're like, okay, it feels a bit safer to establish this boundary now. My version of codependency in the workplace was wanting to be the go-to person for everyone and everything, right? Like I was the person who had the answers to all the questions or that you went to if you didn't know where to find something or needed to get something done or whatever. So using that example, I think we have the tendency when we become aware of something that we want to change to swing the pendulum sometimes a little too far in the opposite direction. Yeah. So in my world, that might be like I'm not answering anybody's questions ever again, right?

It's like, okay, that's not happening. Laughing because I've been there. Right. So I like this one-at-a-time approach. It feels approachable, which half the battle sometimes. But how do we identify maybe some things without swinging the pendulum too far? Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought that in because I think that happens to all of us, right? It's like we learn a boundary and we're like, oh my God, let me like over-rotate on this

boundary and then completely shut people out. And then that doesn't feel good to either of us, right? It's like we learn a boundary and we're like, oh my God, let me like over-rotate on this boundary and then completely shut people out. And then that doesn't feel good to either of us either. So Prentice Hemphill has this quote that says, boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously. And I think in the context of our work, it's the boundary at which I can, or the distance at which I can honor you and me simultaneously. So instead of doing that 180, where it's a complete shutting of you out, asking ourselves the question, how can I honor me and you at the same time? Because when it's dysfunctional, it's usually because we've over-honored you or I've over-honored me. So how can I honor both of us? And that's going to look really different. It's not going

to look like 100% of the time I'm not answering my emails or saying no or what have you. It's going to look like more of a delicate dance. I love that answer. And I think sometimes when we show up a little bit differently with people who aren't used to it, even if we're honoring them and ourselves at the same time, there could be an initial, I'm just going to use the word upset or confusion. Any tips on how to handle that? Yeah, that's a great point, right? When we show up differently, people are going to have an experience around it, whether positive or they feel challenged by it. And so one of the things that we could do is we could have a trade-offs conversation with the person that we're shifting the boundary with. So if it's a manager, for example, of, you know, I'm just really trying to play all out for the things that are on my plate. So if I say yes to this next thing that you're asking of

me, it means that I'm going to have to say no to this thing in order to do these projects to 100%. So I feel like a trade-offs conversation is a really sort of diplomatic, fact-based conversation versus sometimes the boundaries conversation can feel overly emotional in a workplace context, and like someone's going to have a specific reaction to it. And so if you can invite them on the journey and say, hey, in order for me to do this really well, here's the trade-offs, I think that can sometimes be a bit more supportive. What do you think about, I think this is along those lines, but what do you think about assuming there's some respect and care in the relationship, letting

them know that this is something you're working on? So sort of I've identified that doing this is making me less effective or less efficient or it's causing harm in some way. And so I'm really working on getting better at saying no or not being the person you come to for all the questions. Maybe the question is, what do you think about letting people in on it? And then also, second part, asking them to support you with it. Yeah.

I think if you have the relationship there and the relationship can hold that, yes. Heck yes. I think that can be really supportive for both sides. There's this feedback model from the Center for Creative Leadership, yes, heck yes. I think that can be really supportive for both sides. There's this feedback model from the Center for Creative Leadership that I love to use. It's the SBIS model. It stands for Situation, Behavior, Impact, Solution. And I think that could be such a helpful way

to walk people through, again, in a work context because sometimes that boundary conversation or the trade-off conversation can feel so emotional. And so situation, the situation is, is I have said yes to every project. trade-off conversation can feel so emotional. And so situation, the situation is, is, you know, I have said yes to every project and the behavior is, is now I'm noticing that I am overworking and that's causing the impact is that I'm not able to show up fully for XYZ projects. So my solution is that I start to set some boundaries or my solution is that I, you know, if I'm bringing in a new project, it means that I'm offloading another one. So walking them through a framework that feels really fact-based, I think,

can be really helpful, but you're absolutely right. I think bringing people on the journey, if the relationship can hold that, is just super helpful for both sides. And I have to take a time out and just acknowledge I'm throwing some big, tough questions at you. You are knocking them out of the park. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay. You mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, boundaries. How do we, and you might have already answered it in what we were just talking about, but I want to talk about setting boundaries with people who have positional authority over us. Are there nuances or differences that we need to keep in mind when we do that? Absolutely. I'm so glad that you brought

that into the conversation. And so we're often going to find ourselves in a power dynamic. And in order for us to set a boundary, there has to be psychological safety, right? So there's four levels of psychological safety, and they sort of build on each other inside of an organization. There's inclusion safety, learner safety, challenger safety, and I'm forgetting one of them, but I'll send you a link for the show notes. And we have to feel safe to challenge, right? To challenge that, hey, this project is too much and I need to set a boundary. That's actually not present in every single organization. And I think it's important to name that because sometimes we start to feel like something's wrong with me. I'm like, I didn't do a good job setting the boundary. We start to put the blame on us. But if the

psychological safety isn't present, we're probably not going to be able to set the boundaries. I think that's really important. And then coming back to that SBIS model, that can be a really helpful tool. And if you can show the broader impact, not the impact just on you, but the impact on the team and the company, that's often how we'll get buy-in from somebody that's in a position of power with us or above us, let's say. So if they see that there's going to be a bottom line impact, an impact on their team, we're more likely to get buy-in from them. And so they can be on the journey with us. But I just want to acknowledge that sometimes it doesn't feel safe to set that boundary and it isn't possible. I'm so glad that you said that because

I do think the reminder that yes, it's a relationship, but it's a business relationship. So having there be a business reason or outcome or alignment in your boundary or in, you know, when you try to shift your behavior to something that's a little bit more productive. I think that's so important as opposed to just how we feel. I think as women, we tend to lean on or default to our feelings. And I'm not saying our feelings don't have value or that they shouldn't be, you know, that they should be discounted or ignored, not by any means. And in a work or business environment, I don't think we should lead with them, at least not all the time.

Would you challenge that or is that? All feelings are valid, right? So our feelings are real and valid. And also our job inside of an organization is to have the other person not just listen, but hear us. And in order for them to hear us, we need to language them in a way that they can digest. They may not speak feelings. We may speak feelings, but they may not. So what is the way that we need to language this so this can actually land for them? And if it's business impacts, because that's the language they speak, then it's our job to flex to their style so they can actually take this in and then support us. Because if we show up in our way,

we're not meeting them halfway. We're not honoring them so that they can do the thing that we need them to do as well. So I like to use a tool. Have you ever done a disc assessment? Yes. Love disc, right? Because it's basically like, what is the receiver of this message and how do I need to message this so they can actually take in and hear this thing? And I think it's the same thing with feelings versus business impact. Again, great advice. Okay. My last question, codependency and personal relationship. I think sometimes you get to a point where the only question left is, do I leave or when do I leave or how do I leave? How do we know when we get to that point in a work environment?

When does leaving become the only or best solution in a codependent relationship? Yeah, it's a beautiful question. And as someone who has navigated codependency in my personal life and at work, I really get the challenge of this and how hard it is. I think one of the most important things for us to do is to make sure we do our work in place because with my own clients and with my own experience,

what I noticed was a desire to jump from the frying pan into the fire, right? Be like, oh, it doesn't work. Let me go to another place. But the thing is, is that, like I said at the top of the recording, is everywhere we go, there we are. So we're just going to literally show up in those same codependent traits in another work environment. So we want to work out as much as we can in place. Now, of course, if you're in a harmful environment, please leave. But we're not talking about harm.

We're talking about dysfunction, and those things are different. And so what are the things that you can change in place? Can you establish the boundary? Can you lean into less self-sacrifice? Can you honor your needs more? And once you have done those things, if you're still like, this is just truly dysfunctional and there's no way that I can thrive, then that's the moment. But my invitation to people is as much work as we can do in place, if we are not being harmed, because it'll only support you for the next move. Amina, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This has been such a powerful conversation. You just dropped so much good information on us. Thank you. If you're listening and you want to learn more about Amina and her work, and you absolutely should, go to AminaAltai.com or go

listen to the Change Your Life podcast or follow her on Instagram. We'll put all of that in show notes. Amina, thank you so much. Thank you, Nicole. You're an incredible interviewer. I felt so comfortable and at ease with you. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and to share. I appreciate that. Thank you. All right. Let me close out by saying I've never heard anyone talk about codependency in the workplace before. I've never heard it defined the way Amina defined it for us today, but my God, have I witnessed it and probably experienced and enabled it myself. Are you excessively supporting someone in your office? Does someone rely on you well beyond and outside the description or inflection of your job?

Are you getting text messages and requests outside of agreed upon normal working hours? Do you feel responsible for the actions of others and are you running around rescuing them all the time? Would everything fall apart without you? Are you doing more than your share all of the time? Remember that our strengths taken too far can easily become our weakness. Loyalty, supportiveness, empathy, and all of those things are strengths, but they are not the same as the need to be needed. There is a difference between empowering people and enabling them. And being needed is not the same as being valued. I wish we would all stop using terms like selfless and self-sacrificing as if they were good things.

And I'd love if we'd stop tying our self-worth to meeting the needs of others. How about it? Because this is woman's work.