This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - 5-Steps To Making Big Decisions with Abby Davisson | 222

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Decision-making is a skill we should have all learned in school, but didn’t. On this episode, we’re going to learn how to make decisions - and not little inconsequential ones, but the big life-changing and life-defining decisions - with the help of Abby Davisson. Abby has dedicated her career to helping others achieve their goals, first as a social innovation leader and now as an author and entrepreneur. She is the co-author of Money and Love: An Intelligent Roadmap for Life’s Biggest Decisions and the founder and CEO of the Money and Love Institute, which helps people make better decisions that lead to happiness, prosperity, and purpose.  When making decisions, sometimes a pause is helpful, sometimes you do really need to “think about it”, but at some point – and I’m guessing that point is much sooner than we think – we must decide. We cannot make progress, we don’t get closer to what matters, without making decisions. So it’s time we learn how to make the best ones for us! Connect with Abby: LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abbydavisson/  Decision-Making Style Quiz: https://www.moneylovebook.com/quiz  Substack Newsletter: https://abbydavisson.substack.com/  Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Thanks to our This Is Woman’s Work Sponsor: Bamboo fabric that is perfectly soft, temperature regulating, machine washable and committed to ethical production, Cozy Earth checks all the boxes, and is now on every bed in my house. Get your sheets (and more) by visiting cozyearth.com and use my code NICOLEKALIL to get 40% off!

I am Nicole Kalil, and I think you'd agree with me that there is a fairly long list of things we wish we would have learned in school, but didn't. Like instead of memorizing presidents, we memorized coping skills. Instead of parallelograms, we learned how to manage money and pay taxes. Instead of playing hot cross buns on the recorder, we learned how music can support our mental health. From time management to home repair, how to find a job and negotiating skills, I'm sure we could come up with a very long list of things we wish we would have learned at a much younger age. But I have one that tops

all the lists for me. This is the skill I wish we were all taught early and often. It impacts each and every one of us. It's a skill we use in every aspect of our lives, in our relationships, at work, with our families, and our finances. It impacts us internally and externally. One could argue it's the start of everything we do. And that is the skill of decision-making, the actual process of making decisions and choices that impact our lives. We all do it multiple times a day, and yet I'm not sure many of us really feel like we know what we're doing when we're doing it. Maybe you lean more towards analytics and data. Maybe you're a pros and cons list person.

Maybe you analyze pitfalls, which for me is a much more professional way of saying overthinking. Maybe you let intuition or gut feeling be your guide. Maybe you flip a coin and let the fates decide. Maybe your go-to move is to defer the really big or really small decisions to someone else. You might naturally be more of a risk taker or you might naturally be more risk averse. You might think out loud. You might go internal. There are lots of ways we can and do make decisions, but here's the real question. Is how you're making decisions working

for you? And is there a better way? On this episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to get that lesson I believe we all will benefit from. We're going to learn the how of making decisions. And not just little inconsequential ones, but the big life-changing and life-defining decisions with the help of Abby Davison. Abby has dedicated her career to helping others achieve their goals, first as a social innovation leader and now as an author and entrepreneur. She is the co-author of Money and Love, an intelligent roadmap for life's biggest decisions, and the founder and CEO of the Money and Love Institute, which helps people make

better decisions that lead to happiness, prosperity, and purpose. She's also a wife and mom, which we all know comes with its own set of decision-making opportunities, and she is relentless in her pursuit of discovering the best dark chocolate. Abby, thank you for being our guest. I typically have a billion questions, but I want to make sure we have plenty of time to go through the five-step framework for decision-making that you share in your book. So I'd love to start there if you're okay with it. Absolutely. And I'm so delighted to be here, Nicole. My pleasure. Okay. What are the five steps? What should we be doing when we're

making big life decisions? Well, I first want to address why we developed, and by we, I mean my co-author who was my professor that I studied with in business school and I, and then I'll dive into what they are. But we developed a framework for making big decisions because as many of your listeners undoubtedly know and as you just mentioned, so many of us are quick to jump to a decision just because we don't like that feeling of discomfort when we're in that moment of uncertainty where we don't have a clear path forward. And some of you may know Daniel Kahneman, who is a Nobel Prize winning psychologist. He popularized the idea that we have two systems of thinking. We have system one, which is impulsive and emotional. It's quicker to access. And that is often where we are when

we're faced with a big decision. It goes back to a predator is pursuing us and the fight, flight, or freeze. That is a system one decision. System two is rational. It's logical. It's a bit harder to access. And so when we're in an emotional state, when we're dealing with anger or fear or guilt or shame or so many of the other emotions that come up when we're following the path towards a money and love decision, we're more likely to be in system one. And following a process can help slow down your thinking, help get you out of that emotional state so that you can make sure you're making decisions from a system two perspective, which is how, what leads to better decisions. And, you know, secondly, a framework is flexible but sturdy. So every decision is unique. Every person is unique. We can't possibly, nor do we want to, tell people what to do.

But we want to help give them the tools for understanding how to think about a decision that could be applied to a variety of life decisions they're going to face, but they don't have to learn different steps each time. That makes sense. I mean, anything that can be leveraged and is repeatable and that we can practice, I think is always helpful. And I tend to lean more analytical by nature. So sometimes the overthinking or getting stuck in indecision can be a little

bit challenging. So regardless of your come from, it sounds like having this process helps us to use both and, right? Like, yes, we'll probably recognize the emotions and employ logic and reason as opposed to just defaulting to one or the other. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's so helpful that you know that you are an analytical thinker. We have a quiz on our website, moneylovebook.com, where people can go and understand their decision making tendency.

And the power of knowing that is that you can say, hey, I know I can get stuck in analysis paralysis, so I'm going to give myself a time limit or I'm going to provide these other checks and balances that help me overcome the default tendency that sometimes trips me up. Okay. So I love all that. Let's talk. What is step one of the framework? So the framework, and so we call our framework the five C's. So the first C is to clarify what is most important to you. It sounds simple, but it requires deep internal self-reflection, understanding your core values, understanding what you really want and don't want. So many of us find that what we want is very shaped by what our parents wanted

for us, what we see our colleagues and friends wanting. This notion that French philosopher Rene Girard coined of mimetic desire, where we want what others want. We see our friends buying a second home and we think, oh, maybe I should buy a vacation home. We just go to different places every time we go away, but maybe it would be really nice to have somewhere familiar that our kids could have memories of going to every year. So those sorts of wants get really embedded for us and we need to tune out those other influences in order to truly understand what we want. So I love that. And I think sometimes we want what other people think we should want, right? Like there's that people pleasing or caring too much about what other

people think. Maybe I'm projecting, but I think that happens for a lot of us. Any tips on how to separate the noise of all the other things and really hone in on what it is we want? So we have exercises in our book because even though I wrote the book with an academic, it's a very practical book that is designed to not be academic, but very applicable. So some of those exercises can be helpful. The idea of tapping into your core values is useful. A couple of ways to do that include thinking of a peak experience, a time when you were in flow, when you had no sense of time and get really specific about what you were doing, what you were feeling. Another technique I love is to pay attention to what makes you really angry when you read about it or hear about it in the

news. And anything that you have an outsized emotional reaction to tends to touch a nerve that's connected to a core value. So there are some ways to get in touch with those things that can help to tune out those other voices that might not share the values that you personally have. I love all of that. And I'm not trying to discount values. I'm so on board with values. But I love that you said to the what might feel like a negative reaction, what might piss you off or make you angry, you know, that kind of big reaction, giving us insight into what we value. I hate to say it, but that's honestly how I learn best is usually when I have that unreasonable

reaction to something, usually negative, that gives me an insight into a nerve that it's pushing on against one of my core values. Okay. Second C. So the second C is to communicate with those most affected by the decision. If you are in a long-term partnership, that is your partner. But even if you are not in a long-term partnership, you're not an island, right? There are others who are very connected to you that are going to be affected by the decision. So that include could include a close relative, it could include people you're providing care for. So the tendency, especially for those of us who live in our heads, is to want to figure it all out before we have that conversation. And the reason

that this communicate C is second, is that it's so important to let those people in to have a real conversation where you're sharing your perspective, right? You've clarified. Now you're going to share your perspective before you have it all figured out and tied up in a bow so that they can share their perspective and you can actually be influenced by it. Because the challenge is if you've figured it all out, and then you have the conversation, regardless of what they say, you've made up your

mind. And so we actually want to allow for the possibility that their response might shift our thinking. And you can think of clarify and communicate as a bit of a dance this way. And that can really help create a process that everyone feels good about, not just you as if you are even the primary decision maker. I can't say that communicate being in the fives is surprising to me, but the order it is in is really interesting. And I love what you said about it. What brought to mind to me is communicating at this stage allows us to be more open and to be more influenced and to hear somebody else's feedback, insight, perspective, what they want. Because I do this is I think, and then first I assume, right, this is what this person wants

or what they won't want or what they'll think. And then also once I've done all the work and then bring it as this packaged decision, if somebody pokes at it or doesn't agree with it, or has an alternative way of seeing it, I find it much more frustrating. I get more defensive. I'm more closed off. It feels like I'm too far gone to go back. All of that to say, I really like this being so early in the process. What is the third C? So the third C is to consider a broad range of choices. When we are in the throes of a big decision, we often see our choices in binary terms. Do I marry this person or break up with them? Do I go for the promotion or quit my job? Right? So there's the extremes. The truth is there are any number of options in between those

extremes that are more likely to get at what you want. So the idea of broadening your consideration set is a way to get to a better decision. The choices C actually goes well with the fourth C, which is check in with trusted resources. So in the beginning, you're really getting the inside view of your own mind, your deepest desires, bringing in the people,

the person or the people who are very close to you, you're now starting to get the outside view because we are not the most unbiased, objective people when it comes to our own lives. So there may be creative choices we haven't considered just because we can't see them. And that's where starting to go to other people whose opinions you admire and trust and who have some of the things that you're hoping to get through making this decision or maybe have made that decision themselves in the past, they can start to help you broaden your set of choices or maybe eliminate some of them because of their own experience. Okay. You are so right because we do the this or that. We do get binary. And I think we also, because of our,

I don't know, our pattern, our way of making decisions, the way we've done it our whole lives, it limits the options and even our thinking about the options so much. Is there any value to reaching out to people who either have different experiences, different perspectives, or different ways of making decisions at this stage? Absolutely. I mean, you really are trying to gather data. I think any other source that you trust and can provide value is helpful, including published studies. So the trusted resources don't only need to be people, although that's what many of us think of. The one thing I would caution, especially if you are an analyzer, is that it's a really comfortable place to be in

the check-in step. So there could be a temptation to just have more and more and more conversations as a way of avoiding making the decision. So if you know that that is your tendency, you can provide that check on yourself to say, okay, I'm going to talk to five people. And after that, there's really going to be diminishing returns. So I'm not actually going to continue to find more and more and more folks to check in with. I'm going to limit myself. As you know, I have a tendency to become excited, possibly obsessed when I find something that I love. From cheese to hotels, women I admire to my favorite topic of confidence, I just can't shut up about it. And I love sleep. My favorite place in the world is my bed. So when I tell you that I found the best sheets ever, you need to

know that I've tested an abundant amount. I've spent top dollar. I've tested thread counts and various materials, and my search has ended with Cozy Earth. Bamboo fabric that's perfectly soft, temperature regulating, machine washable, and committed to ethical production. Cozy Earth checks all the boxes and now is on every bed in my house. And if you use my promo code, Nicole Khalil, you can get 40% off. You heard that right? 40% off when you use the code, NicoleKhalil at CozyEarth.com. Enjoy a long, deep sleep. Be great in bed because as we've been told, that is woman's work. And now let's get back to the show. So I am one of those people, and I was going to ask that, like, is there a certain amount of choices, going back to the third C, considering a broad range of choices that you recommend? Or,

you know, so like, if I can come up with three, am I trying to find 10? Or does that not even matter? Again, my overthinking is happening right now. Generally, three to five is a great number. One of those should be doing nothing because that is a choice. And we need to evaluate it as such, even though it is often a passive choice. And people think, oh, I'm actually not making this decision because I'm doing nothing. But by putting doing nothing as a choice, you're reminding yourself that no, that is actually a choice, even if it doesn't require action.

And there are going to be, we're getting to the fifth C, consequences of doing nothing that you should acknowledge and be aware of as you're making that choice. I would almost say in my experience, the worst consequences I faced have been when I've done nothing. And recognizing that as a choice, sitting in analysis paralysis or waiting to, and I put in air quotes, feel ready or waiting for the heavens to open up and the light to shine through and that you just know what is the right thing to do. That's honestly been the worst for me. When I've made some not so great decisions, I've learned and have been able to use that to then make better decisions, but then not doing something can be really painful.

So let's talk about consequences because there are always consequences, right? There are. And many of us tend to think of consequences as a negative thing, right? We tell our kids, like, if you don't do this, you're going to get a consequence. Or maybe that's just me. But, you know, the idea of consequences is that they can be positive and negative, but it's important to explore them across different time horizons because we have a very powerful short-term bias. And so we tend to see the close in. And when I'm saying short-term, I mean like next six months, we can see very clearly the positive and negative things that are going to unfold because of the choices. What's harder for us to see is, okay,

after that initial six-month period, what is likely to happen? And then how about, you know, as you go out to two years thinking longer term, what is likely to happen? And that type of thinking helps us overcome that short-term bias that sometimes trips us up and makes us want to avoid the pain of doing something in the short term, for example, when it might have good consequences for us in the long term. Okay, that makes sense. Now, I am guessing I'm not the only person who fears making a wrong decision. And while going through all of these steps will certainly be helpful, There is no guarantee that we will only ever always make the right best decisions. I'm guessing that's not even a possibility.

So what are things that we can tell ourselves? How do we overcome when we recognize that a decision we've made might not have been the best decision? What are some things that we can do in the face of that fear of doing the wrong thing? Yeah. So I would say a couple of things to that. Number one is that very few decisions cannot be undone, right? I think like having a baby is really, you know, once that baby's on the outside, like you are, you are stuck with that baby. Other than that, pretty much every decision can be unwound to some degree. So you can always remind yourself that. The second thing I would say to that is there is a phenomenon called resulting, which is where you judge the quality of a decision based on its outcome.

And it's such a human thing. I mean, I do this all the time. But it's really important to say, listen, you can do all the right things. You can use this framework, which of course is not a silver bullet. It's, it's a evidence-based approach, but you can do all the right things. And there could still be a monkey wrench thrown in, or, you know, you could have bad luck, right? Everything is about, you know, some degree of, of, of choice, some degree of luck, and sometimes you just have bad luck.

And so it's important to say, hey, I made the best decision based on the information I had at the time. I went through a process that I feel good about, and I'm not going to judge the quality of the decision by the results. I can feel unhappy about the results. I can be pissed about the results. But I shouldn't blame myself or second guess my decision because of the results. I can feel unhappy about the results. I can be pissed about the results, but I shouldn't blame myself or second guess my decision because of the outcome. That is like, I personally needed to hear you say that. I think we're taught a lot that if we do the

right things, if we work hard, if we, you know, follow the steps, then the outcome will be good. And as much as it would be nice to believe that, it hasn't been my experience. I can look back on some decisions that I know I made the absolute best decision I could with the information, resources, and experience that I had at the time that I made it. And now with the benefit of hindsight can look back and be like, knowing what I know today, but I didn't know what I know today. We can get really tripped up on the outcomes and the results and use that as the barometer as opposed to the process or the feeling or the sense of pride we had when we made the decision. Absolutely. And that is human nature. So you're not alone. You know, the other thing that's important to keep in mind when making a decision is, you know, the information and the research

on regret, because that comes up a lot, right? Is to say, well, how will I know if I'm going to regret this decision or I don't want to do something I regret? And Daniel Pink has a great book called The Power of Regret. And he talks about, he did this huge research survey, thousands of people and asked them about their regrets and categorized regrets into four categories. There are what he calls foundation regrets, so not being responsible when it comes to health, education, finances. There are boldness regrets, so not being responsible when it comes to health, education, finances. There are boldness regrets, not taking a chance or a risk that could lead to growth. There are moral regrets, which are not doing the right thing. And there are connection regrets, which are about not prioritizing relationships with family and friends. And so knowing what those

regrets are lets you do something that is called, you know, anticipating regret, where you, as you're going through the consequences and you're thinking about, okay, well, what, how could this decision play out over different time horizons? You can say, wait, is this likely to lead to a regret? Is there a, um, an opportunity I'm not taking advantage of here? Or is there something that, you know, based on this research, I know I'm not going to get to do? And really people regret the risk they didn't take more than the

risk that they did, even if that risk led to an outcome that wasn't ideal. And so that research can be helpful in knowing, especially as we get older, we have more of those boldness regrets because we're wired for stability and security. And so, you know, I've pushed myself in terms of taking some bigger risks by saying, you know, I'm going to regret not doing this. Well said. And again, something I think we all benefit from hearing. And I just have one last question. This is something you teach and you obviously see a lot. So what's the one thing you wish people knew about making big life decisions that they might not know? That the decisions you make in your professional life, your career life, are intimately connected to your personal life. They're going to have a consequence

for your personal life and vice versa. And we're so often taught to make these decisions in silos and to think about career decisions, financial decisions with our heads, and to think about relationship decisions with our hearts. But that is absolutely not the right way to think about those decisions. They're inextricably linked. And so you need to think about the consequences for both in order to make a more holistic, informed, and better decision. Abby, thank you. I started out our conversation by saying you'd teach us the how, and I feel like you more than delivered on that. So thank you, thank you, thank you. For our listeners, you can find Abby Davison

on LinkedIn. And she mentioned this quiz already, but go to moneylovebook.com forward slash quiz to find the decision-making style quiz so you can figure out what your lean is and how the five Cs framework might be helpful to you. Again, Abby, thank you so much. Thanks so much. Loved our conversation, Nicole. Me too. Okay. I can't possibly end this episode without sharing one of my favorite memes about decision-making, and it goes like this. The road of life is paved with flat squirrels who couldn't make a decision. Yes, sometimes a pause is helpful, and sometimes we really do need time to think about it. But at some point, and I'm guessing for many of us, that point is much sooner than we think, we must decide. Because

we cannot make progress. We don't get closer to what matters without making decisions. And for the big ones, the ones that have really mattered most in my life, I will tell you that they've always come with a combination of excitement and fear, with desire and doubt. I have never once made a meaningful or important decision from a place of feeling 100% ready. In fact, with all of my best decisions, I expect fear and doubt to be present, not as a sign that I shouldn't do it, but as a sign that I'm up to something big, something that matters. So I ask you, what is it that you really want? Clarify.

Ask yourself what's most important. Communicate with those who are affected. Consider a broad range of choices. Check in with trusted resources and evaluate the consequences, short-term, long-term, positive and negative. Because no matter what, making good decisions for you and toward what matters and recovering from the not so great decisions, well, all of that is woman's work.