This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Be A Likeable Badass with Alison Fragale | 230

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

We explore a common paradox on this episode (and I’ll be up front that this is one I’ve struggled with for most of my career) – and that is, being a likeable badass. How can we be both liked as a person and respected for our success? How do we get the recognition, negotiate for our value, and create opportunities without our peers or colleagues seeing us as cold, calculating or selfish? How do we create and leverage power and status as women, if we feel icky about the words power and status? I don’t have the answers, friend, but I know someone who does. Alison Fragale is the author of Likeable Badass and the Mary Farley Ames Lee Distinguished Scholar of Organizational Behavior at the Kenan-Flagler Business School. Her work has been published in the most prestigious academic journals in her field, and is featured in prominent media outlets such as The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Financial Times, Boston Globe, and many more. A sought-after keynote speaker and trusted advisor, Alison was introduced to me by Adam Grant, and is here today to help us understand more about power, status, and likeability – and how those things impact our ability to get more of what we want. A loving reminder that whether or not you’re a working professional, we’re ALL negotiating for the things we want, for what matters most to us. And whether you’re at work or in your personal relationships, your status matters. It’s time for us to set aside those limiting mindsets because they aren’t serving us or our people. You can be and become a likable badass. Connect with Alison: Website: https://alisonfragale.com/  Subscribe to Alison’s Substack: https://alisonfragale.substack.com Book: https://www.amazon.com/Likeable-Badass-Women-Success-Deserve/dp/0385549148  Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Thanks to our This Is Woman’s Work Sponsor: Visit https://nicolekalil.com/retreats to learn more about our BE Hive reTREATs, our signature reTREAT for women in business, our Family Forecasting reTREATs for couples to get aligned with their goals and each other, and upcoming Snooze Fest reTREATs for exhausted women who just need a f*@king break!

I am Nicole Kalil, and you're tuning into the This Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And while I firmly believe that you are the decider for you, I also believe that we can't pretend that we don't face a ton of societal expectations, unique challenges, and nuanced obstacles that make it more challenging to live authentically

than I would like. As an example, you may authentically and fundamentally believe that ambition is part of doing woman's work for you, as I do for me. But that doesn't change that women's ambition is still judged differently, often more harshly and as a negative trait than it is for men. Or maybe you struggle, as I often do, with things that seem paradoxical, like wanting to be an engaged and loving parent while also succeeding at a high level at work, or being others focused while still taking care of myself, or I don't know, being kind while still being able to tell people to fuck off when needed. Let's face it, discovering and deciding what's authentic and right and true for you is just one part

of the battle. Because once you decide it, you have to live it. And living it is where we seem to come up against everyone else's ideas, opinions, and expectations, which often leads us questioning, is there something wrong with me? Am I too much this or not enough that? Can I really be both and? So on today's episode, we're going to explore one of these common paradoxes. And I'll be upfront that it's one that I've struggled with and worried about for most

of my career. And I'm guessing you might too. And that is being a likable badass. Like, how do we, how can we be both liked as a person and respected for our success? How do we get the recognition, negotiate for our value, and create the opportunities without our peers or colleagues seeing us as cold, calculating, or selfish? How do we create and leverage power and status as women

if we often feel icky about the words power and status? I don't have the answers, friend, but I know someone who does. Alison Fergale is the author of Likeable Badass and the Mary Farley Ames Lee Distinguished Scholar of Organizational Behavior at the Kenan-Flager Business School. Her work has been published in the most prestigious academic journals in her field and is featured in the prominent media outlets such as the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, Financial Times, Boston Globe, and many more. A sought-after keynote speaker and trusted advisor, Allison was introduced to me by Adam Grant and is here today to help us understand more about power, status, and likability,

and how those things impact our ability to get more of what we want. Allison, I could not be more interested in this topic, so I'm excited to dive in with my first question, which is how do you define a likable badass? I think we've seen so much of one or the other, but not of both. So what does this even look like? Yeah, it's my catchy term for the science of how decisions about status, which is essentially how much we're respected by other people, how those decisions are made. So when one human being looks at another human being and decides, do I respect and value that person? Those judgments aren't random.

Those judgments are based on two fundamental dimensions of perception that we study in psychology. One dimension is going to be our assertiveness. If I give you something to do, can you get it done? Are you capable? Are you persistent, organized, competent, determined? Those qualities matter. And the other dimension is warmth. Are you caring? Are you other oriented? Do you value people other than yourself? And what we respect in other human beings is people who are very capable. They have these characteristics of assertiveness and people who are very caring. They have these characteristics of warmth. My term likable badass is just the catchier version of what we understand from the psychology

is that's how people make decisions about who they respect and value. Okay. So I might be wildly off base, but when you put it like that, it almost feels like women could potentially have an advantage here. Whether it's true or not, I think we're often perceived to have warmth. And I don't know, you know, the vast majority of the women that I know are really focused on credibility. So where are we, I don't know, missing the mark or going off track here? So sometimes women miss the mark, but sometimes we are disadvantaged from the very outset of a relationship, even when we have done nothing wrong. So I think it's useful for us to talk about both of those things. Let's start with the latter one. Gender is what we call,

and I'll get very psychological, I'll break it all down. Is it what we call an ascribed status characteristic? It means that your gender impacts all other things being equal, how much a person might respect you from the very beginning. And it's ascribed, it has nothing to do with how capable or caring you are, but we think it does. That disadvantages women because male is awarded more status than female in most contexts. There are status characteristics that are based on all kinds of things, race, age, sexual orientation, but gender is one. And I've done a lot of work on status and power and how people are perceived. And what we find in that research is if a human being lacks status, they're seen as a lower status, less respected person,

and that person also isn't in charge of anything. They're a low power person. So think of, you know, like an entry level new person, they're no threat to anybody. We tend to see those people as really sweet and harmless. So they're high on warmth, but they're not very assertive or capable. We see them as a little bit ineffective. Now, as soon as a lower status person now all of a sudden controls things, they have a lot of power. Now we see them as very assertive, but now they're cold. This is how women get caught in a catch-22 that is no fault of their own. You start off your career, right? You're just heads down, you're doing your work. And next thing you know, you get some feedback that someone says you're not enough.

You're not confident enough. You don't have enough presence. That could is possibly you've done nothing wrong except their brain has said, this is a person that doesn't have a lot of status. They don't have a lot of power. What kind of person is that? That's a sweet, submissive person. All of a sudden you defy the odds. you rise in the ranks, you get promoted. And next thing you know, no longer are you sweet and submissive. Everyone thinks you're a bitch. And the reason that happens is because your power has changed, but your status hasn't. So this is a natural, the idea that women, I always say like that they're on the world's worst merry-go-round, like just looping around to these two different perceptions, neither of which is a likable

badass. They can get likable, they can get badass, they can't get them both. Okay. That's how we get in that situation that's no fault of our own. And what that means for women is that we need to be more strategic and purposeful from the outset of relationships to recognize that we are at a status disadvantage, but that disadvantage can be overcome in minutes, in seconds, through very authentic, natural behaviors if we just start thinking about it. And I always say the proof is this.

Tell me a woman that you think of as a likable badass. You would say, I respect that woman. It's not just me. Lots of people respect that woman. They see that woman as capable and they see that woman as very caring. It doesn't take any person more than a second to name someone in their life that way. In a room full of a thousand people, they'll name a thousand different women. So it's possible. What we need is a little bit of strategy. And then sometimes we do things that we

think are going to build our status and our respect in others' eyes, and they actually do the opposite. And those are well-intentioned mistakes that human beings make, not just women. But those mistakes particularly harm women because we're already starting with lower status based on gender. We just can't afford to make any mistakes. Okay. So I want to get into some of the strategy, but before I do the words power and status, I think for a lot of women have like a sticky, maybe negative connotation. Talk to us about what, what you're talking about here and what's the difference between the two. Okay. They are different. Power is controlling resources that people value. If I hold car keys and my teenager wants to drive, I have a form of power. I have the keys. You can't get them unless you go through me. Money is a source of power. So pay is power. When you control the

money, whether it's your own financial wealth or whether it is you control the budget at work, you have power. When you have authority to hire and fire people, that's a form of power. So when we rise in rank in an organization, we generally get more power because the higher ranking positions have more authority associated with them. So power is controlling something that other people value. It can be information, car keys, whatever. Status is how respected and valued you are by other people. And so it's a judgment of one's worth. And the interesting thing about status is that status exists solely in other people's minds.

Your status is nothing more than how much respect other people have for you that exists in their mind. So we only get as much as people are willing to grant. That's generally true of power. Most of the time, if we have resources, it's because someone has given them to us. But in theory, you could control, right? Let's say you found an organization, you could control all the resources. even if people didn't enjoy that. You would still have the ability to do that. With status, it's completely voluntary based on your audience. And so it's about understanding how they think about respect and working together.

So they are different. Sometimes they go together. A person who has a lot of control can be a person that's respected, but we often see more often that they can be very separate. That's where it can create challenges, particularly for women. If you have a lot of power and you don't have a lot of respect, we often think that simply being promoted will be the thing that causes everyone to respect us. That can happen, but we see lots of data and science and examples from high-ranking people where it doesn't. And women actually end up having more problems later in their career than they do

in the beginning because their power has risen, but their status hasn't, and they end up being treated worse because of it. So that's the distinction. Do you control resources and are you respected? Okay. So if status is in the eye of the beholder to a certain extent, is part of the strategy understanding the people were around said another way, like my status might be different with one group of people or one person than it is with another group of people or another person. How do I impact my status from person to person? That's right. So yes, your status can change based on how people view you. And that could be different audience to audience.

But what is consistent across all human beings, and we see this from the science, is that all human beings will be evaluating you based on how capable, how assertive you are, and they'll be evaluating you based on how warm you are. Now, what they'll be paying attention to in different environments could be different. So for example, right, if we are talking about issues related to women succeeding in the workplace, you have a major platform and clear expertise. So if you're on that topic, people would look to you and say you're capable. But then you go to the car dealership and or you go to another context and your work as a women's advocate is not really relevant in

that context. So therefore, your capability could be in question. So that's one reason it could shift from audience to audience is you're an expert in one domain, but you go to another domain and you're not. So the most surefire way, the question I always tell people to ask themselves is in every interaction when you show up is what are the things that I can control that are going to enable me to show up as capable as possible and as caring as possible? And I said, what are the things I can control? Because we got some variables we don't get to control and they are what they are, but let's focus on the variables we have left. So is it, and again, what I help people think

about is the whole host of ways to communicate how capable and caring you are. I've done work in things like speech styles and nonverbal behavior. Women are coached on those things a lot. That coaching is well-intentioned because what people are saying is when you speak like this, people infer this about your capability and caring this. So you should be aware of the links. So it could be how I use my nonverbals, how I use my voice. It could be, I'm offering somebody advice that shows that I'm capable and caring. I'm making an introduction to another human being that shows that I'm capable and caring. And what I walk through in the book and what I walk through with women in general is how to always, I always say, add,

don't subtract. You do you. You're going to start with your amazing qualities. And then what you want to think about is, do I tend to show up naturally more caring or do I tend to show up more capable? And then that's going to be my relative strength. How do I then layer in the other dimension so that I can still be me, just be my natural self, and then think about it? I'll give you one example. Since I do work in speech styles more, and women have always been said, oh, you've got to eliminate all the I thinks and the rights and all that stuff from your speech. I understand why that advice is given, but my recommendation is you don't necessarily need to change it, but you should be aware of it.

So if you have a very assertive style of speaking, then you should recognize that one of your channels is already sending out, I am capable into the world. What could you do to add in caring? But if you have a very tentative style of speaking, that does show that you're more caring, you're more other oriented, it's good for the warm, but it's not as good for the capable. So you don't have to speak in a way that feels fake and unnatural. You just have to recognize that your speech style is working on one dimension. And then you have to look for what's the way I'm going to showcase my capabilities. So that's how I coach women to think about, regardless of your audience, think about that moment and say, what can I do right now that will help me show up as capable

as possible and as caring as possible to this person in front of me? And that is the thing that I'm going to try to do. I am beyond excited to share with you that my team and I just set the dates for our 2025 retreats and I'd love nothing more than for you to join us. Whether you want to attend one of our three signature beehive experiences designed for women in business, or you want to plan a getaway with your spouse or partner to get aligned with your goals and each other at our family forecasting retreat in January. Or if you're exhausted and you just need a fucking break, you can join us for one of our two upcoming SnoozeFest retreats. Visit NicoleKhalil.com to check out all of our upcoming amazing retreat experiences.

In all cases, members of my community will get first access and special pricing. So if you haven't joined us yet, go to NicoleKhalil.com and join my community to get yourself on that list. Let's face it, being queen bee is exhausting, especially when you don't have a swarm of worker bees bringing you food all day. So let us take care of you for a change. It's time to retreat yourself by going to NicoleKhalil.com and joining us for a life-changing experience. I could talk about retreats all day, but it's time to get back to this mind-blasting episode.

Okay, Allison, I'm gonna try not to turn this into a personal coaching session, but I wanted to ask, well, first, I'd love to talk about some of the common mistakes, the well-intentioned mistakes that you mentioned earlier. I think there are a lot of things that we can do to work on this, but if we're not mindful of the things that might be doing damage or detracting from it, that could be problematic in and of itself. So let's start there. What are some of these common mistakes or limiting mindsets or things that we do that have a negative impact on our status.

Right. Okay. I'll start with some that we are very familiar with, and I want to break down the science. One, when women are told, stop apologizing. Now, I don't think you have to stop apologizing, but let's look at what an apology is. An apology is going to be high on the warmth, high on caring, because you're saying, right, I value you. I did not want to do anything wrong. But if you're admitting fault in some way, you're saying, I didn't do a good job. And therefore, it's going to be low on the capable side. So when we apologize,

we tend to get put in that warm and submissive bucket. Now, unnecessary apologies when you've done nothing wrong, if you haven't done anything wrong, you're probably perceived as perfectly warm already. So when you're adding an apology in, you're probably not getting anything on the warmth. You're already there, perhaps at the risk of being more submissive. So when women are advised to stop apologizing, it's because apologizing is a warm and submissive behavior. Now, I apologize all the time. I'm never going to stop. But I'm conscious of it and therefore think if an apology is there and it's warm and submissive, as long as I have something else that's more assertive, that's okay. But that's an example of a mistake. I also help women think about a flip. If you're a serial apologizer like me, one flip is to move to what we call in psychology superfluous apologies. Superfluous apologies are

apologies for things that everyone knows are not your fault. Like, I'm sorry about the rain. Have you ever visited a city and someone says that? Or I'm sorry about the humidity. No one thinks you're the rain or the humidity is your fault. So you can actually apologize for it and get a lot of credit. It shows a lot of empathy, but it doesn't attack your credibility because no one thinks it relates to you. Another example would be concealing our good news. White women, we care.

We're socialized to be warm. We're expected to be warm, to be humble. Something women, we care. We've, we're socialized to be warm. We're expected to be warm, to be humble. Something good happens to us. We don't want to go tell everybody because we don't want to be seen as bragging. We think if I'm bragging, I'm going to lose warmth. Well, there's been great research on this. When you have good news to share and you're with people and you don't tell them, they are going to find out at some point. The world, the grapevine is too efficient. When they find out, do they think, wow, Nicole is so humble for not telling us? No, that's not what anyone thinks. They think, why didn't Nicole tell me? Does she either not value me enough to want to bring me into her world? Or does she think that I am so petty and selfish that I couldn't be happy for her?

She must not think very highly of me. So it turns out that when we conceal our good news, we get seen as, and it gets found out, we get seen as very assertive and capable, but not very warm and nice. And that's something women do all the time. Not because we're idiots. We do it because we think it's going to buy us warmth, but actually the science shows that's not what it's doing. So I help people take these very well-intentioned behaviors that we think are helping us show up in a particular way and show them that's not working. Here's what you could do instead. So I say sharing good news is more, is better for building both your care, your, your, your warmth and your assertiveness, building

your status than trying to keep it to yourself. And so that gives you some of the science that when people tell women to be more self-promoting and it feels icky, there is truth to it that women can use to their advantage. Again, wildly fascinating and speaks directly to me. I'm sure this will come as no surprise to anybody who listens. I think I lean more towards the assertive style of communication and I have to be very mindful and conscious of the warmth part. I too apologize all the time and I've really struggled with the messaging of stop apologizing, stop apologizing. Cause for me, it feels a authentic and be important in some way.

I mean, not apologizing for things I'm not sorry for, like, but there's something to that. And when you were saying about concealing our good news, I'm completely guilty of that. And when you're talking about how people must feel, I'm like, oh, God, that sucks because that's obviously not my intention. If somebody is listening and they, like me, tend to lean more assertive, what are some of the strategies we might want to be considering to warm ourselves up a little bit. So you and I are the same, right? And this is one of the reasons I think why I took to you instantly. And I lean more assertive as well. And I always say when I err, I always err on the side

of being too assertive rather than not assertive enough. So thinking about the good news is, right? The warmth dimension is really takes very little to convey, right? Things that, things that I, I do. I have created a rule for myself long ago. I, in the same kind of work, you probably get this a lot. A lot of people reach out to me. I'm a professor. I'm a women's advocate. They have a question. They think I know a lot more than I do, that I'm just the expert in all things. And although that's good for my brand, I don't know everything. I made a decision for myself years ago that anytime I get a question on social media or an email, Alison, do you know, you know, can you recommend a speaker? Do you know a book? What's the research on this or that? One thing I know is that even if I don't know the answer, I'm experienced enough in this that I can

find the answer quicker than the person who's asking me. And so I'm never going to say, I don't know. I just go find out. And I answer the person's question. And it normally takes me less than 10 minutes to search online and figure it out. That's a rule I've created for myself. So thinking about ways to add value to other people, that's caring in ways that don't take a lot of your out. That's a rule I've created for myself. So thinking about ways to add value to other people, that's caring in ways that don't take a lot of your time. That's one. Two, when I'm on social media, I'm only there to be positive and say nice things and lift up other people. I don't just like posts. I like people. So someone posts something relatively boring, like their company is hiring. I don't really need to heart it, but I like them. So I support them. That's something that I do. I always have a rule that

if I think something positive in my head about another person, I will not let that thought die there. I will compliment that person in some way, shape, or form, either to their face or to somebody else. These are little rules that I've developed to myself that make me feel good about who I am as a human being, allow me to lift up other people, and don't take up time out of my day. They're just little policies I have that I can throw out there. So that's what I would encourage everybody is take the dimension where you're weaker and think about something I could do. Those are some warmth examples.

If you need to work on the other dimension, like being more assertive, I would say advice giving is good. Think about something that you're an expert in. Find somebody that needs some help. You always show up as capable in that way. When you go into a meeting, making a rule to try to talk in the first couple of minutes because being a spectator is a learned behavior. Say something. Then all of a sudden your voice is out there and then you're a person that people look to as speaking. Something that you can have as a little rule. And I always say, just do one thing. And then when that thing becomes a habit and you don't have to think of any more, then you can add on another thing. You don't need to do all the things. You just find one thing and you roll with

it. Great advice. As you were talking, I was thinking about it too. For a lot of my working years, I thought I leaned hard into perfectionism. I defaulted to that. And what I've realized over time is authenticity is maybe my version of warming, not leaning so much on credibility and I have it all figured out and everything's perfect. But yes, I have experience and I have something of value to share. And let me share about what's authentically happening in my life or with my feelings or where I messed up and where I've made mistakes. That to me, I think, I'm curious your opinion on that. Yeah. So I always tell people strategic and authentic are not opposites.

You can and you should be both. Now, I do think there are times when we should, we need to be aware of self-deprecating behaviors when we put ourselves down. I think there's a good reason to do that and a bad reason. The research shows people believe what you say about yourself. So if you say you're not very good at something, that's what people will take. So if you put yourself down and they're going to think you're less competent on that dimension, that could be problematic. But when we are honest about our shortcomings, our failures are very authentic.

It is a form, I think a very sincere form of mentorship, of how we actually say to somebody, right, they can see themselves in us, they can trust us as a person they come to for advice, or a way that we can get mentorship from other people and say, I need you to coach me. So the way I always think about if something is going on in my life that is not positive, or I don't feel very likable badass, am I going to bring that out into the world? I will do it for one of two reasons. I either want to be coached or I want to coach. If I'm just venting, I try to reframe to something that is truthful, but still status building. So I always say people ask me all the time, like, how's work? And sometimes the answer is disastrous. But if I'm in a moment where I'm just passing somebody on the street and I'm neither

going to coach or be coached at that moment, I try to reorient to something that is honest, but still gives me some like less, like what is something positive that's going on that I could share that's still my authentic self, because I'm not going to give them a 45 minute lecture anyway. So authentic doesn't mean your whole life. Authentic just means true. So the strategic part is deciding with whom and when am I going to like pull back all these onion layers that is Alison and share them. And that's how I think about it. And I do that because I am quite a natural self-deprecator. And I've had to understand through the course of my own life where that has served me well and where it hasn't. And to think about how without being inauthentic, I can realize what goals I have. A lot of times I do it for

humor. And if you look at a comedian on stage, poking fun of yourself or putting yourself down is a recipe for being a good comedian. And I pride myself on being funny and putting people at ease. And sometimes I do that at my own expense, but you have to be aware of the status implications of those things. So that's how I think about it is if I want to coach or be coached, then I'm very forthcoming about what I'm struggling with. If I'm not in either of those moments, I try to reorient to truthful, but still likable badass. Okay. Good distinctions. And it just keeps kicking up the question of, we hear a lot today about stop caring about what anybody else thinks. Now, obviously, as it relates to status, this is a lot about what other people think. And I want to be careful that we don't take it too far and start caring too much about

what everybody thinks. So I don't know if balance is the right word, but how do we navigate through this being mindful of our status, but not giving ourselves over to everyone else? 100%. I talk about this directly in the book. I always joke that don't care about what other people think is the worst advice our parents ever gave us because it is misconstrued in a couple of ways that keep us from doing things that build our respect. So the idea is this status is a fundamental human need.

It means it's one of the few things that all human beings want and it defines our quality of life. Lacking resources and lacking respect are just as damaging as living a life without friends. So when you feel like people don't respect you, it is an awful feeling and it ruins your life. So we need to care about it because it exists in other people's heads.

But there's a difference between, I would say is you need to recognize that you can affect it. And that is different than simply ruminating over what other people think. How I show up influences what other people think about me. I have some control over that. I want there to be a sense of agency and confidence in that belief that I can shape the way you see me in a way that will be to my advantage to allow me to be valued enough to put good out into the world. And I have control over that. That does not mean that... So I want it to be a source of freedom, not a source of feeling beholden to other people's beliefs.

And it's a subtle distinction, but a lot of times people spend a lot of time just simply worrying about it rather than, I can influence that. And it's a lot easier for me to influence it before your mind is made up. And that's one of the big messages I want to tell us. Status is fairly easy to create. It's a lot more work to change. Think about somebody that you initially did not think much of and they won you over. You can name someone, but if I tell

you, if I ask you to tell me the story, you're going to say it took a while. It didn't happen in a minute. So when we have to change how people think about us, it's just a lot of work. So we shape it. And so that's where I sit, which is I ruminate about what people think as much as, you know, anybody else, but it's different. It's not just worrying about it. It's recognizing I can influence this. And I want that to be freeing rather than feeling like a prison of other people's expectations. I love that. It keeps the power within us to do something about it. Okay. My last question, because you mentioned earlier in our

conversation as women, sometimes we can be at a disadvantage and how people see us just right off the bat. So is there anything, I don't know, quick tips, anything that we can be doing to impact and improve our status in those initial moments when we are meeting somebody or connecting with somebody for the first time. So we don't have to do the very hard work of changing people's thoughts of our status down the road. A hundred percent. Okay. I think the easy one when you meet somebody is the warm part is easy, right? Smile, say something complimentary. It's lovely to meet you. I've heard amazing things about you. Something like that. That part is fairly, fairly quick. Then on the assertive piece, um, one, I always say never throw away a throwaway

question. So when someone says, how are you doing or how's work, right? You're like, I'm fine. It's busy. That person has given you an opening to tell a story and you need to take that opening and say something, right? And say something that I always say inspires more follow-up conversation. So piques their curiosity by saying something positive. Like, I had a great win at work today, right? I'm really excited. I'm going to say something truthful. I'm going to present to this audience next week. And something that piques some curiosity. What do you do? Let me tell you. And then as soon as you have the opening to tell your story, you can talk about your accomplishments. You can talk about the characteristics and the things that you do to the world. You don't do it all at once, right? With some, you know, massive monologue, but do not throw away those introductory chit chat questions. They are opportunities for you

to say to this other person, I see you, I compliment you. You're amazing. And let me tell you a little bit about my story. Let me tell you what I do. And all of a sudden, that's how we can in the back and forth of natural chit chat and human exchange, get part of our story out there. And the reality is it's not that hard because guess what? All the people listening to this podcast are very capable and very caring. So they don't need to make things up. They just need to get them out in the world that people know about them. And then I think use the questions that people are asking you, say a little something, spark some curiosity, and then be ready. It does take a little practice though, right? Start trying to practice how to answer how are

you with something other than fine or busy. Terrible answers. Great advice. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know people are going to want to learn a ton more. So you can go to allisonforgale.com. She also has a sub stack that you can subscribe to and it's great. You absolutely should. And for the love of all things holy, get yourself a copy of her book, Likeable Badass, and then go buy it for all the women in your organization and the women in your life that you love. Allison, thank you for this incredible conversation. I wish we had more time. I have at least 17 more questions, but thank you.

My pleasure. All right. A loving reminder that whether or not you're a working professional, we're all negotiating for the things we want and for what matters most for us. And whether you're at work or in your personal relationships, your status matters. It's about warmth and assertiveness. And it's time to set aside those limiting mindsets because they aren't serving us or our people. You can be and become a likable badass because getting

more of what you truly want, well, that is woman's work.