This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Belonging (At Work) with Dr. Beth Kaplan | 286

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

🤔What does it truly mean to belong at work? 💭How do we create workplaces where people can thrive without sacrificing who they are? ❓And what happens when belonging feels out of reach? If you��ve ever felt like an outsider in your workplace or wondered how to cultivate a culture of true inclusion, this episode is for you. Dr. Beth Kaplan is a leading expert in workplace resilience and belonging. As a sought-after consultant, speaker, and author of Braving the Workplace: Belonging at the Breaking Point, she has spent decades redefining what it means to belong in professional environments. She’s currently pioneering a groundbreaking belonging measurement tool with the University of Pennsylvania—one that predicts the likelihood of thriving in the workplace. Belonging isn’t just about feeling good at work—it’s about knowing you’re in the right place to thrive, contribute, and grow. It’s a foundation that fuels everything from innovation to resilience. And when we recognize our own value and claim spaces where we can show up authentically, we make room for others to do the same. That’s how we transform workplaces into communities. Because here’s the truth: When you feel valued, you show up, speak up, and make the impact only you can. Connect with Dr. Beth Kaplan:  Website: https://drbethkaplan.com/ Book: Braving the Workplace: Belonging at the Breaking Point LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beth-kaplan/ Related Podcast Episodes: Do You Need Job Therapy? with Dr. Tessa West | 239 Who’s Entitled Now?! with Dr. Jessica Kriegel | 237 The Sixth Level Of Leadership with Dr. Stacy Feiner | 236 Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

I am Nicole Kaleil, your host of the This Is Woman's Work podcast. And while we cover a whole gamut and cross section of topics and are ready to discuss literally anything relevant, supportive and impactful to women today, we want to make sure that at least some of our This Is a Woman's Work episodes focus on your actual work, like what you do for a living. Because work is such a huge part of our lives, and we could talk about work-related topics all year and barely scratch the surface.

From leadership, entrepreneurship, communication, motivation, career growth, workplace culture, the list feels endless. So today, we're diving into the ever-relevant and often messy topic of workplace culture. Because let's be honest, work can feel like a battlefield at times. Whether you're navigating unspoken hierarchies, deciphering passive aggressive Slack messages, or questioning whether that open door policy is code for enter at your own risk.

Showing up as your authentic self at work can feel a little bit like juggling hand grenades. We're constantly told to bring our whole selves to work. But what happens when that feels more like a trap than an invitation? How do we be both authentic and feel like we belong? And not belong as a corporate buzzword, but as the glue that holds teams together fuels creativity and keeps burnout at bay. So what does it really mean to belong at work? How do we create spaces where people can thrive without sacrificing who they are?

And what about those moments or those environments where belonging feels, let's just say elusive or even impossible? Dr. Beth Kaplan is here to answer those questions and I'm sure many more. Dr. Kaplan is a powerhouse in the field of workplace resilience and belonging. She's a visionary thought leader, a highly sought after consultant and

speaker, and the author of Braving the Workplace, Belonging at the Breaking Point. Dr. Kaplan has spent decades redefining what it means to truly belong in challenging environments, and she is currently pioneering a groundbreaking belonging tool with the University of Pennsylvania designed to measure belonging and predict the propensity to thrive. Today we'll unpack some groundbreaking concepts like the different types of belonging, spoiler alert, not all of them are good. The difference between inclusion and belonging and why belonging is a choice, but one that

organizations have a big hand in influencing. So buckle up and let's dive in. Beth, I'd love to start with the definition of belonging that you share in your book, which is the innate desire to be part of something larger than us without sacrificing who we are. Can you share kind of how you came to that definition and how it differs from other common interpretations of this term we're hearing a lot about of belonging?

Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. My pleasure. So, yes, belonging as the innate desire to be part of something larger than ourselves without sacrificing who we are. When I went to find the definition of belonging in my research, probably as far back as I can remember as high school, I never got a straightforward answer. Some people thought it was membership. Some people called it attachment. Some people even said fitting in. So I decided instead of really trying to go through all that messiness, I was going to clean it up a little bit. And that's where I came up with that definition. So what makes this unique, I would say, is that people associate their own definitions of what it means to belong.

And when I looked at that, I didn't necessarily feel it was wrong, but there was something really missing for me. And the piece that was missing was this whole sense of individuality. So belonging is not something that others can determine for us. That's called inclusion. That's when other people say that you're allowed or you're accepted into something, right? And belonging is something we decide for ourselves. So when we look at how we construct belonging, it made a lot of sense to me to think about the fact that it's an individual's mission. And in order for that mission to be successful,

you can't give up what makes you you. And that's what a lot of us do. And to me, that's the arch nemesis of belonging that's fitting in. Okay, so a lot of things there. I wanna hone in on the words innate desire. Yeah. I think I have a firm belief that we're all wired for connection.

And I am a diehard introvert. So like, I think a lot of times people think, oh, no, you know, not everybody needs to feel connection or like they belong. And I love the very beginning part, the innate desire. Do you believe that we all feel this, need this, crave this? Yes, absolutely. I believe it's hardwired in our DNA.

You can go as far back as Stone Age to really think about why we started to feel the sense of belonging. Initially it was for survival. So that's not changed. If you really get to the real sense of belonging. Initially, it was for survival. So that's not changed if you really get to the real root of this. I love that you brought up personality. I love that conversation.

And I'm not surprised that introverts need belonging just as much as extroverts and ambiverts, because the difference is really how much stimulation you take in, right? And that has nothing to do with how much you expect back. It really doesn't. So I would say belonging is personality agnostic. And everyone needs to know what makes sense for them.

At the same time, you need to really protect yourselves and make sure that you're not giving up what makes you you. Because then no one wins in that situation. They really don't. Yeah. OK, you kind of differentiated between inclusion and belonging. And I loved the way that you did that. I also feel like this sort of idea

that needing to fit in is the arch nemesis of belonging. But I think often that's what we think we need to do to experience the feeling. So how do we sort of separate this idea of belonging versus trying to fit in? I love that question. So to me, fitting in requires you giving up what makes you you to be part of something else and belonging requires that you be you. They're very different in that sense. I can give you so many ideas and reasoning why that is the way it is. But I always like to give the example that I am a Philadelphia Eagles fan.

So I apologize. Anyone out there don't shut me off yet. But when I go to a bar and I don't know anyone and I see anyone wearing an Eagles hat, I'm going to be lying to them. And it's not because I have to do anything. It's because I know I can be myself. I'm an Eagles fan. They're an Eagles fan. Does that mean we're going to agree on anything? No, not even a little bit. But it means I don't have to change who I am. And that's an instinct that we all possess. Maybe not the Eagles fan part. I don't have an affiliation, so we're all good. Okay.

So I think to me, that's a really easy thing to understand. It doesn't require me changing anything about myself. It actually requires me to be myself. Now in my personal experience, what I have found when I've tried to fit in is I may have, and I'm going to put in air quotes, belonged more from the perspective of other people, but internally I felt wholly and fully drained. It was exhausting. Yes.

Whereas I think the flip side of showing up authentically and being yourself and bringing your full self is internally very inspiring and fulfilling, but externally can have some, I don't know, potential consequences. We can't control other people's reactions and behaviors. So maybe this goes back to the difference between inclusion and belonging. Actually, it has a lot more to do with personality. Introverts, extroverts, ambiverts, what separates them all is the amount of stimulation they take in. You can actually, this is going to mess this up quite a bit.

It's going to make it even muddier than it already is. You can actually be an introvert, go somewhere where you don't have to fit in and still be drained. Because that might just be the way you are and the way you process. But to your point, there's a really big thing missing when you go somewhere and you don't

have to be anything but yourself, and the conversations are great, and you just feel good compared to when you fit in or you try to fit in. There may be a temporary happiness, a company with that, right? I didn't stand out. I didn't make a fool of myself. I didn't, but what happens is uncertainty sets it. And I like to call that belonging uncertainty. I did not make that up.

A lot of people smart that are way smarter than me did. And that belonging uncertainty has a very intense ripple effect. Because you are left to question everything. Did I fit in? Did I do anything based on my own merit? Do they need me to fit in? Were they asking me to fit in? Did I try on my own? Did I guess something? And do I belong in general? So the interesting thing is we make up our minds whether or not we belong in a new scenario within the first seven seconds of being there. So you know.

And when you give in to situations that have you giving up a part of your identity, whether it's big or small, it feels really bad, right? You feel bad about yourself. So that's one of the big differentiators and that has a lasting effect. We know already that from a neuroscience perspective, that interrupts our working memory, what allows us to retain information, to give information. We know that it has mental, not just the mental impact, but it physically hurts.

I'm sure you've been somewhere where you've tried to fit in, and it's worked or it hasn't and suddenly you feel achy or you're hungrier or you're you know can't sleep there's so many different things that happen but that is one of the biggest differences whether or not we if we are being our true selves we're not there's such a gamut and spectrum of things that occur mentally and physically. Yeah I think for me it is a dual thing it is that kind of feeling sick occur mentally and physically. Yeah, I think for me, it is a dual thing. It is that kind of feeling sick to my stomach, that feeling like I almost betrayed myself a little bit. I also have the tendency to overthink in those situations,

like all one big mind fuck. And you kind of talked about that as like, did I do too much? Did I do too little? And it's like you one big mind fuck. And you kind of talked about that. It's like, did I do too much? Did I do too little? And it's like you lay in bed overthinking a seven second event or whatever. Okay, so I wanna approach this a little bit from two different angles.

The first is what can workplace cultures, leaders, colleagues, peers, what can we do that has the biggest influence on an employee's sense of belonging? Would you believe that the manager, your direct manager, has the biggest influence on your sense of belonging in the workplace? And let's take that one step further. You said to me, what could we as leaders do in the workplace to help people sense of belonging?

And the number one answer, which I never get, not one person has ever given me the real answer, is care. Believe it or not. And care has a very large spectrum. Care can be thoughtfulness, care can be clarity, right? Clear was kind. Clear can be speaking someone's name in a room they're not in for opportunity, right? Claire was kind. Claire can be speaking someone's name in a room

they're not in for opportunity, right? So care is huge, but it needs to happen. The person needs to feel like this is a mutual understanding of care. And believe it or not, it doesn't even have to be authentic care. And I know there are people that are probably throwing things at me right now.

But the reality is, the person on the other line needs to feel like they're being cared for. Okay. I have found maybe more, well, I guess it probably plays out in all relationships. Sometimes how we show care is different than how somebody receives care. Is there some benefit as a leader or as an employee to having that conversation? Listen, this is how I typically demonstrate care or, hey, this is typically how I feel cared for. So I'll give an example. I know a lot of people I've worked with in the past, one of the ways they feel cared for is when somebody asked them a lot about their personal lives, like, how was your weekend? What did you do? I got to tell you, that is so hard for me. I can do it somewhat inauthentically if I need to, but the way I demonstrate care

is by making sure people have opportunities. I do say they're naming rooms they're not in, giving credit where credit is due, championing that, like there's so many things that I can think of of how I would demonstrate care, but it might be different than how somebody wants to receive it. So is that a worthwhile conversation? Does it even matter?

Okay. Absolutely. So there's a few things, it sparks a couple of things. Yes, people, just like you need to understand how people want to be praised, you need to understand how they want to be cared. Some people don't want to share information. Believe it or not. Some people don't get their sense of purpose from work. I mean, that sounds blasphemous for nowadays, but that's what we call dissimulated belonging. You can feel a sense of belonging. You don't necessarily feel it to the workplace.

And that's okay. That's where people need to respect and understand. But they can't do that until you tell them. So it goes both ways. If I am a leader out there listening, what I would say is you ask people, how do you like to be praised? Some people want it written in the sky. And some people want a humble mention in a meeting. And some people want nothing other than job well done.

So understanding how they receive praise, what works best for them, how they want to feel cared for. So that means meeting people where they are at. I would also say if you're out there and you are thinking to yourself, God, I don't think that my leader or supervisor or anyone higher than me in the chain knows that about me. It's okay to tell them. It really is. The other thing I would say if you're a leader out there,

ask what the person liked about their last few leaders. What did you like about this person? Oh, you liked that they kept consistent one-on-ones with you. Okay, great. So then mental note, I won't be changing Nicole's one-on-one schedule or I won't be moving it randomly for her. At the same time, ask what they didn't like. I did not like when Nicole moved my meetings all the time. It made me feel like I was a lower priority on her list. So summarizing that, yes, ask your people how they like to feel cared for, understand their boundaries, and ask what they liked about their last three leaders and what they did not like.

Great tactical things for both sides, right? Whether you're the leader or the employee or any version of that. One of the things that I like, and when I was doing my preparation that you say, is that belonging is a choice. And I think sometimes we're too quick to say, we don't belong and it's this person's fault. What are some of the things that we can do

internally within our workplace culture to improve our own sense of belonging? So I would really set up boundaries. That's a really good way to understand your own sense of belonging, what matters to you, and what you need to do to protect your inner peace. I'd also understand what my values are and what I don't value. For example, I bet I could ask you what you don't value. It's probably very different than it was for you 10 years ago. 100%.

For me, I don't value being right anymore. I don't need to be right. And if I'm being honest, Nicole, I don't know if I necessarily feel like I need to be understood all the time either. So to me, if I'm in it with someone and we're going at it, I have to remember, sometimes it's just not a hill we're dying on, and I don't need to be right.

And there's a way that you handle yourself that makes you feel honest and good at the end of the day. And that's where I would have my guiding principles set. Okay. In your book, you've identified various types of belonging. Can we talk a little bit about those? Yes. So in the research, I kept hearing various descriptions

and interviews around what people thought belonging was. And they just, they felt a little icky to me. And I had a really deep-seated question the whole time, was, is belonging all or nothing? Can I belong to parts of something and not a whole? And I just didn't find the research anywhere. I mean, think about this. I have a gym membership.

I have two gym memberships. I feel equal to both of them, so I can belong to more than one thing. And then I kept thinking, oh my goodness, belonging is not all or nothing. And then it led me to ask myself, since it's not all or nothing, that means when I say belonging, it could mean more than one thing to each person that hears it. And what is the opposite?

People kept telling me, professors, other researchers, that the opposite of belonging was exclusion. That's what I heard most of all, and it just didn't sit with me because we know the opposite of exclusion is inclusion. So I really set out to understand that, right? And that's where I decided to really make the understanding of belonging clear when it comes to true belonging, right?

So the innate desire to be part of something larger than ourselves without sacrificing who we are, which is actually a derivative from Brene Brown's definition. What I did was I added the sacrificing who we are part to it. She came up with the first half, so I want to give credit where it's due. So the opposite of belonging is thwarted belonging.

Thwarted belonging is when we have a lack of belonging. So when we have a lack of belonging, there's some really bad hard ramifications. We won't go through all of them, but what I will say is the end result is that we know belonging is an antecedent to suicide. Thwarted belonging in particular. So when we feel a lack of belonging, when we feel like the world would be better without us, when we feel like we don't belong anywhere, that all contributes to that word of belonging. So those are the two easiest. Now there's two more, and it's really interesting. I'm going to start with probably the harder one, which is dissimulated belonging. And that occurs when someone might not be candid or sincere

about where they get their sense of belonging from, right? Or when they're disconnected from an environment on purpose. It doesn't mean the people with dissimulated belonging don't have a strong sense of belonging. It's just not related to the workplace in this context. And the reason that exists, if you think about it, is we've got a lot of corporate cheerleaders out there. No one doesn't want to be labeled a corporate cheerleader.

It's still taboo to not go out with your coworkers after work. The simulated belongers don't want to deal with any of that drama. And when I was preparing for this, I actually thought of what I thought would be most beneficial for your listeners out there is sacrificial belonging. And that's when people consciously or subconsciously give up their well-being, the values or their identity to feel accepted or for the greater good of something else. So they sacrifice that. And why it really felt like it was calling for your podcast, Nicole, is because many Wilmen feel compelled to overcompensate in their roles,

and they do that by sacrificing their well-being, their personal values, or their boundaries to meet societal workplace expectations. So when I thought about that, I thought, wow, that's probably something that we could talk about and would be pretty powerful for people to hear about. Yeah. I can't imagine that this isn't something that a lot of people, women especially, are finding themselves consciously or unconsciously in. So just to recap, the four types of belonging are true, thwarted, dissimulated, and sacrificial, correct? That's right, you got it.

Okay, so let's dive a little bit into sacrificial belonging. How do we know that we're headed in that direction? And how do we, what are some things that we can do to prevent, protect or redirect if we are going down that road? Sure, so just to recap, sacrificial belonging for anyone, not just women, is when you give up a part of yourself,

for what you believe is the greater good. So whether it's your mental health, your personal values, your boundaries, to fit into systems that, quite honestly, don't serve you very well. So this comes with the belief that your sacrifices are necessary to succeed, to earn your place. And unfortunately, it takes a huge toll on people. It's immense. Burnout, anxiety takes a huge toll on people. It's immense burnout, anxiety,

a deep sense of disconnection. They're all common symptoms of sacrificing too much for too long. Belonging should never come at the cost of well-being. So it's critical for people to recognize when they're compromising too much and to redefine success in ways that align with your true sense of belonging. Now, the thwarted belonging, or really the, I mean, worst case of not belonging, as you mentioned, being suicide, what are some things, subtle signs, cues that we can be paying attention to for ourselves and the people we care about that give us some insight that the people we work with are feeling disconnected or that they don't belong.

The signs of thwarted belonging are a little harder. Sacrificial is really easy. Let me start there. If you think about sports culture, they do a really good job of cutting you off when you're burning yourself out physically and mentally. In the workplace, that's a lot harder to do because the more you give yourself, the more you're typically rewarded. It is difficult to address a person with sacrificial belonging because they may think you're jealous. They may think that you don't believe their contributions are valid and they may up the ante. That's really, really difficult. The word of belonging is pretty similar. Typically, you can recognize the signs of the word of belonging because there's a lot of negativity that comes with it. There's a lot of emotions. I wish that emotions were not taboo

in the workplace. They still are a bit. So people are inclined to hide them. Thought of belonging usually is accompanied by masking or covering of some sort. People don't wanna admit when they don't feel like they belong. It doesn't feel good. Thought of belonging is not a common phrase we use in the workplace.

There's a lot of emotions we have that we just simply don't have the language for, or as I mentioned, they are taboo. So what I would say was sacrificial belonging. Let me give you a few signs. Working till all hours of the night, skipping life events for work, and making excuses. Making excuses is another really good one oh we didn't get. You know five hundred percent of our bonuses but that's because the company really needed the money.

So those are really good they're really easy telltale signs of sacrificial belonging when it comes to toward belonging it's general feeling. You know it that being said if you're asking about like, do you just don't feel like you belong here? It gets a lot more complicated. And here's the problem. Most of us are not trained psychologists in the workplace. So I'm not sure necessarily if it's anyone's place to diagnose that unless you see a professional. And they could really help you understand

your own sense of belonging if it's something you're just not capable of doing. Nicole, the other thing is it's not realistic for me to tell anyone out there that if you are sacrificing too much of yourself to quit. It's not realistic. We're all tied to our livelihoods. So the book will give you ways to cope if that's just not

an option for you. And it will also remind you that if you do quit without dealing with the symptoms of thwarted sacrificial belonging, it's not going to go away with your next job. It's going to follow you until you deal with it. And unfortunately, workplace PTSD has been known to last somewhere between five and 10 years per person. So I love by the way that you said that, it was gonna be one of my questions of, obviously the easy thing is, oh, just find a job where you do belong,

but it's never that easy, right? And I also like, what I heard was, play a part in getting down the sacrificial road or authoritative belonging, and if we don't address the root cause or what's going on within us that has that happen, we're just going to take it maybe not even just to our next workplace, but also to other aspects of our life.

Absolutely. It's not a nine to five thing. This is it. If you feel a true sense of belonging at work and you're lucky enough to have that in your personal life, that's wonderful. That being said, if you're lucky enough to have that in your personal life, that's wonderful. That being said, if you have thwarted belonging or sacrificial, you have no choice.

It will seep into your personal lives. It's not an if, it's a when. Okay. I wanna ask this question. It's not as deep as the conversation we've been having, but I just feel like it's an important one, because I think a lot of times when people think about the concept of belonging,

there is an element of physicality to it. And after COVID, you know, there was a lot of work from home and a lot of, and now it's the question of, do we bring everybody back? Do we do hybrid, blah, blah, blah? Does it matter when it comes to belonging? And second, how can we ensure that our people still feel a strong sense of belonging no matter where they are?

So I'm going to go first with no and. The only time that place belongingness occurs is when something feels like home. So if you happen to be somewhere where you're working and there are padded couches and a stock fridge, I wish I had a barista. I wish I had someone greeting people at the front door and all that good stuff. But I will venture to say that most corporates, or any office for that matter, do not feel like home.

So the answer should be no. That's the truth. And people will debate that because of so many different reasons. I will say in the past year, I have seen the trend digress from the conversation of belonging because people are getting real. They're saying your jobs need you

to be in person because of the type of work you do. I mean, right after COVID, if you remember, it was all about belonging. I don't believe that people are in that trend anymore. But if they are, the answer is no. The only time something will feel like place belonging is if it feels like home. I believe and agree with the answer.

And I also will circle back to something you said earlier of like, hey, we're not all the same, right? And so there might be an element of asking. I know for me, I don't physically need to be with people, I don't need to be in an office at all. And I always kind of chalk that up to the introvert thing. But that to me just doesn't fulfill that sense of belonging. For me, it's about feeling like I add value and having purpose and having my work feel meaningful and all of that. But then I do know people who very much want to be with people in an office. And that may be more important to that particular individual. So I believe your answer. And I think there might be a little bit of what you had said earlier

of like just having the conversation. That's right. So let's take your example a bit further. I am ambivert to extrovert. I don't feel like I need to be in an office. One of the reasons for me personally is I work out at 6.30 in the mornings. I have a group of women I work out with. I really enjoy being with them.

For me, I get a lot of fulfillment there. Do I have dissimulated belonging because that sense of purpose doesn't come from an office? Maybe. Right? And that's a positive thing, right? Like I said, dissimulated belonging is a positive. So for me, I get that sense of belonging in my mornings before I start my day. I also feel very good about getting my sense of belonging and getting to know people through the screen. The key to that is not limiting the interaction to the screen. And it's learning and it's digging a little bit deeper.

There are people that crave that closeness by proximity. I told you I do, right? I do it in the mornings though. So you do not have to get it from the workplace. You can get it in other places. Are there people that need it in the mornings though. So you do not have to get it from the workplace. You can get it in other places. Are there people that need it from the workplace? Yes, there are. They feel like they're their people.

But make no mistake, they're your work people. They're not necessarily a family or any of the other things that the workplace may call itself. Right. Yeah. I always get a little angsty when workplaces refer to themselves as a family. I'm like, oh, you're dysfunctional. I don't know.

That's my go-to. You guys want to go too? Wow. Yeah. Anyway, I know people are going to want to learn more and I love, again, so many resources in the book. So find Braving the Workplace. You can get it on Amazon or go to your local bookstore. Let's keep them in business. And also, Beth has a newsletter called the Belonging

at Work newsletter. You can find it on LinkedIn as well as all the other social medias or websites. We'll put all the links in show notes. Beth, thank you for this important conversation. I know so many of us want that true sense of belonging in our lives and also in our work. Yeah, so my departing words would be, when you're looking for that sense of belonging, look inward first. The most important thing you will belong to is yourself.

I love that, because the same is true with confidence, which is what I talk about all the times, you look inward first. So, all right, friend, I'm going to close us out by saying belonging isn't just about feeling good at work. It's about knowing you're in the right place to thrive, contribute, and grow. It's a foundation that fuels everything from innovation to resilience. And when we recognize our own value and claim spaces

where we can show up authentically, we make room for others to do the same. And that's how we transform workplaces into communities and high value opportunities. Because here's the truth. When you feel you belong, when you know you're valued, you show up, speak up and make the kind of impact that only you can. And that, of course, is always woman's work.