This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Boundaries vs. Ultimatums with Jan & Jillian Yuhas | 297

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Boundaries vs. Ultimatums with Jan & Jillian Yuhas | 297 On this episode we dive into a topic that affects every single one of us: boundaries. But more specifically, we’re breaking down the key differences between boundaries and ultimatums—because let’s be real, people get these mixed up all the time. And who better to tackle this than two people who have probably had to master boundary-setting since birth? Identical twins Jan and Jillian Yuhas are Relationship and Conflict Resolution Consultants, as well as international best-selling authors of Boundary Badass: A Powerful Method for Elevating Your Value and Relationships. With backgrounds in psychotherapy and family mediation, they’ve spent over a decade coaching high-achieving entrepreneurs, companies, and families on how to build stronger relationships, set healthy boundaries, and communicate with clarity. Boundaries aren’t about controlling others—they’re about protecting your time, energy, and values. That means practicing: 🔥 Staying true to yourself 🔥 Prioritizing what matters most 🔥 Communicating your needs with clarity 🔥 Honoring yourself without apology Because when you respect your own boundaries, others will too. Connect with Jan & Jillian:  Website:  www.twentyeightconsultancy.com   Book: https://a.co/d/ckG4Rli  Related Podcast Episodes: 201 / How To Find The Right Words When Creating Boundaries with Amy Green Smith 132 / 4 Steps To Setting Boundaries with Amy Worthy 072 / Setting And Communicating Healthy Boundaries with Diann Wingert Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

I am Nicole Kalil and you're tuning into the This Is Woman's Work podcast where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today with you as the decider. Whatever feels true and real and right to you, whatever makes you feel the sun from the inside, however you offer your unique gifts to the world, that is woman's work. My goal has always been to cover a wide range of topics

that are relevant, timely, and important, and to tackle those topics from the woman's viewpoint and perspective. All that to say, while many of the topics we cover are universally relevant, they're typically, historically explored from a more masculine lens, and we try to offer a different perspective or a different angle here.

But today, we're gonna cover a topic that doesn't quite fit that description. We mostly hear about today's topic, by women, for women. So much so that I worry that it sounds like, and I put in air quotes, a woman's problem, when in reality it's a topic we all benefit from learning about and could likely do

in a better, more effective way. Today, we're gonna talk about boundaries, but more specifically, the difference between boundaries and ultimatums. Because friend, I think we've heard so much about the importance of boundaries, and we're all setting and communicating them more often, which I commend us for because practice is how we get good at just about anything. But it's hard to practice without getting some coaching along the way. And I believe we still have some work to do.

Because here's the thing. Sometimes we do mistake boundaries for ultimatums, and we miscommunicate our boundaries in ways that don't serve us and unintentionally sabotage ourselves and our relationships. So we're going to talk about some of the wrong ways of communicating boundaries so we can practice better. Because we're all still learning, and this is something we can all benefit from, regardless of gender. And we're going to talk about boundaries today

with two guests that likely had to master the skill pretty early on, being that they're identical twins. I don't know much about what it is like to be a twin, but I'd imagine there's lots of boundary setting early and often. Jan and Jillian Yuhas are relationship and conflict resolution consultants and international bestselling authors of Boundary Badass, a powerful method for elevating your value and relationships.

With their background in psychotherapy and family mediation, Jan and Jillian have coached highly ambitious entrepreneurs, companies, and families for more than a decade on building stronger relationships, elevating growth and mastering the art of setting boundaries both personally and professionally. Jan and Jillian, thank you for being our guests. And I'd love to start with, is probably the most obvious question.

And that is, how do you distinguish between a boundary and an ultimatum? Like how do we tell the difference when we're doing it or experiencing it? I think the biggest thing or the difference between ultimatums and boundaries is usually ultimatums come from the ego and they are more emotion-based. So it's like in their conditional terms you must do X or else I'm going to do Y. And anytime we project a threat or demand onto another person, more than likely it's not going to be met and it's going to, the other person is going to resist because nobody likes to be put in a position

where they have to be forced to do something and they don't have a voice. And when it comes to that ultimatum that's being set. Now, I think when it comes to more like physically endangered type situations or something where you feel in harm's way, then we might have a hard ultimatum in that sort of situation to protect our wellbeing. But otherwise, when it comes to setting boundaries, boundaries are more from a heart-centered perspective. And we make it more about a we mindset, not a me mindset. So ultimatums like me versus you, where boundaries are like, how are we solving this problem together

based on the shared value of like communication, honesty, transparency? Okay, great response. And I should have asked this before we even hit record, but I'm looking at two identical twins and now I'm realizing that I don't know which of you is which. So Jan, was that you or is that Jillian you just spoke? That was Jan.

It was me. Okay, Jan. Okay. All right, Jillian, do you have anything to add or anything that you'd say differently about boundaries versus ultimatums? Yeah, I think what she emphasized, especially with boundaries, it's all about how can we honor that relationship, that connection,

how are we bridging the gap between our differences so that way we maintain that harmony and can still interact and engage with each other where it doesn't feel like it's one perspective is better than the other, but we're taking two perspectives and finding a mutually beneficial agreement that we both can live with and move forward with.

And I think that's really important. Yeah, I love the distinction of the we versus me. I think both of you basically said that. It's a great way for us as we're going through it, navigating through it to distinguish what we're doing. I also think, Jan, you had said something that made me think this is it's like, when we do it in an ultimatum way, unless our life is at risk or something like that,

we have no choice but to put the other person on the defensive. It's like, they're not even going to hear what we have to say because they're so trying to protect themselves or their intentions or their whatever that it doesn't even land. Is that a fair statement? Yeah, more than likely they're going to just come react back to the statement that's been said. And it's actually going to breed more distrust and disconnection in the relationship, which makes it harder to get your need met and feel respected in that moment. I also think too, if you have somebody who's coming at you,

if you think about the reverse and we're receiving this, how do we feel in that moment? Like usually we get that gut feeling that doesn't feel good. We might get anxious, we might emotionally shut down. So I think it's always good to think about the reverse role to help us understand too how the other person may be perceiving if we were to set an ultimatum. Okay.

I think as women, sometimes we veer towards the ultimatum route out of a misplaced desire to come across as strong or powerful or to have that like mic drop moment. But it almost ends up looking like, regardless of gender, more like drama or temper tantrum or something like that. Do you see that at all or any gender differences as it relates to wanting to be firm about a boundary, but then kind of swinging the pendulum too far.

So I think regardless of gender, it's going to come across as a very emotionally reactive or from an ego place perspective. Because when we're operating from our ego, we're in our emotional state, we're in that trauma response and we're triggered. And so we're reacting without really thoroughly thinking through how can I get my need met? How can I work with this person in order for them to meet my need? Yeah, I don't know if it's necessarily like a gender thing, because I think there's a big misconception in general across the board when it comes to boundaries, but women might be seen as more emotionally reactive or dramatic, where a man might be seen or masculine energy might be seen as, well, he's just putting his foot down.

So yeah, I do think there might be that perception from the outside world that women are portrayed differently. I also think too, sometimes women stay silent too long. And so they're all of a sudden, when they've reached their ultimate limit, because they didn't set the boundary when they first experienced that emotion, that signal on their body saying like, this doesn't feel good, I need to speak up in this moment. But so many women are often told to like anything growing up in the home, be the good girl or keep the peace and just go with the flow, especially if your job is on the line. So a lot of times women stay silent until then all of a sudden they

reach this threshold where they have to like really say enough's enough. Like I can't take this. And then of course it becomes a much more emotional reaction. I think that's such a good point. I know I've experienced that myself or I just let it go too long and I basically like exploded because I couldn't take it anymore So where do emotions fit into boundary setting? Because I think a lot of the times the way we recognize we need to set a boundary is from an emotional place And I do think there's some value in communicating how we're feeling or how how somebody else's our relationship with somebody or their actions Might make us feel but like how do we do that without coming from the ego, emotional drama place?

We have two different formulas when it comes to personal boundaries or professionals. So if it's a personal relationship such as a romantic partner or family member, then you might say, you know, I feel dismissed whenever my perspective is not being heard. I value mutual respect. Can we each have a chance to share our perspectives and hear each other out?

That would be more from a personal relationship. If it's a professional relationship, we come from a more big picture perspective in regards to the disconnect and the behavior. It seems like we're on two different pages here when it comes to really sharing all of our, getting all the perspectives on the table. I really value, you know, constructive communication or I value mutual respect.

Can we each share our perspective and then collaborate on what we think is the best method forward in resolving this, you know, situation? Okay, that was really good. I love the distinction between personal and professional. One thing I noticed in the personal is you said, I feel versus you make me feel, or sometimes we, again, just inadvertently put people

on the defensive as opposed to owning that our feelings are ours. I wanna kind of dig a little deeper into that because it was really good and I wanna make sure we, I mean, maybe me, don't miss the distinction. So between the personal and the professional, what are the key differences and how you approach it? Just the first, so there's three sentences

when it comes to setting the boundary. So the first sentence is pretty much really just the difference. So if it's a personal relationship, we're going to say, I feel or I think. And so we're using I statements to own what it is that we are experiencing. And then we're also addressing the problem, not the person, in terms of what that disconnect or discord looks like. The behavior that we find uncomfortable or unacceptable.

And then in that professional atmosphere type setting of a boundary, we say it seems or it appears because the reason why we do this is because we want to sort of depersonalize it in the professional world so the person who's on the receiving end can understand this is more of a joint kind of project. This is a joint decision making that and so we're taking away because we're trying to really just focus on that productivity or the ultimate goal that we're trying to achieve. And it's not to say that there isn't empathy in the workplace but obviously when there are differences we want to remove as much emotion as possible because emotion does heighten the conflict. Yeah, also our emotional triggers are actually our cue

in order to when we need to set a boundary and usually the opposite of that emotional trigger in order to get the need met it's the value that we're setting the boundary on such as we're feeling ignored the value might be communication, we're feeling rejected it might value might be communication. We're feeling rejected, it might be that we value connection. So depending on what that emotional trigger is, that is your cue and that's your insight into what it is you need to ask for the opposite to be met when you're setting the boundary because that's where you're bridging the gap. Emotions are also one-sided perspectives can be challenging for the other party to

understand. So that's why when we set a boundary, we're using our values because the values are universally understood and you're more likely to feel heard and understood by the other person and receive a positive response. So what I'm hearing you say is that our negative emotions or reactions are giving us insight to what we really want. And it's typically the opposite of what it is that we feel like we're getting. And so being mindful of what is this feeling telling me about what I desire or what's missing or what I want from this relationship and then communicating that in a way.

Okay. I love this. This framework is great. Yeah, so we're still talking about our emotions, but we're doing it indirectly in a way, like I said, because like she said, values are universally understood and the more that we can articulate our value, we come across this high value, which people are more inclined to respect as versus saying,

oh, you're emotional or you're being aggressive. So we remove that ability for people to come back with that reaction. So smart. Okay. I have to ask you this because it was honestly what intrigued me most about this topic because we've covered boundaries a couple of times on the show and it inevitably pops up a lot.

But being identical twins and talking about boundaries, that just feels like that started a long time ago, whether it was consciously or unconsciously. Talk to us about what you've learned and what it's like to develop and communicate boundaries with somebody who, I mean, I gotta assume a lot of times people think you're the same. So you feel the same and want the same and that cannot be true.

And you probably shared way more than most people do way early on. So all that to ask, tell us a little bit about what being identical twins taught you about boundaries. So one thing, it's a little bit where our we mindset comes from. So we grew up having to usually, if we were making a decision that impacted the other person,

we would take that into consideration. So it was never just about like what I wanted because if it's gonna impact her as well, since we are so close, and even in business today, we have to sit and discuss these things in order to make sure that both perspectives are being heard. So the we mindset is something that we've kind of always lived with our entire lives. And so it makes it really easy for us to apply that concept when we're trying to negotiate

solutions. However, when we moved from a rural farm town of 900 people to a metropolitan city of three million, we went through a huge culture shock and we experience a lot of me mindset individuals and realize our needs were not being heard or understood and we were so used to listening and hearing what everybody else had to say because it was natural for us. But then we weren't receiving the same sort of respect from other people that we were welcoming into our lives.

So we kind of learned the hard way that we need to have stronger boundaries in our lives. So that leads me perfectly into a next question, which is, what do we do when people aren't respecting our boundaries? Let's say our feeling gives us some insight, we go to what the value is, we communicate it responsibly, you know, we're proud of how we showed up and somebody basically doesn't give us the finger, but by action gives us the finger. What do we do? So our boundary badass method is a four step method. It's the ASAP method. The first step is to assess rather than assume. A lot of times what happens, and I think this is more

common with women, is that when we're experiencing adverse behavior from somebody, rather than assessing where is this behavior coming from, what's behind this behavior? I need to further understand it. We assume and internalize it rather than really understand that this has probably nothing to do with us and this is all about the other person. And so discovery questions or open ended questions allow us to really explore where this behavior is coming. For example, if somebody says something that's really rude or inappropriate to you, just like, that's an interesting statement. Can you share more about what you meant by that or where is that coming from?

So we put it back on the other person to explain this adverse behavior so we don't misunderstand or where they're coming from prior so we know what boundary we're going to set next. Because if we don't assess the disconnect or the behavior, we're not really going to know what boundary we need to set in order to get our need met. This also buys you time to collect your emotions while you're also hearing what they're saying and then it allows you also to pause and think, okay, this is the boundary I need to set in this situation. But if someone comes, let's say you do set the boundary and they're still not receptive,

you're not receiving a positive response, or they just totally walk away from you, that's when you're gonna use your discovery questions again and try to engage them. Now, if they completely shut it down or they're not open, it might just say, listen, maybe we need to have this conversation at another time. It doesn't sound like either one of us are receptive to moving forward.

How about we talk about this tomorrow and set that time and day to talk about it. And then for completely dealing with someone sort of toxic, really just to have your best interest, this is where you have to redefine that relationship and figure out how you're going just to engage with them and when you're going to engage so it doesn't impact your life.

Yeah, cause sometimes you do need to stay engaged. Sometimes you don't, right? Sometimes the decision is, my boundary is, you and I are no longer going to have anything to do with each other. But especially professionally or in like family, extended family situations, sometimes don't have a choice. So it really is about how do we make it work.

So what I love about ASSESS is it is grounded in curiosity. And I do think we all do this. And maybe just because I talk to women more, I think women do it more, I'm not really sure. But this sort of like, this is what I would do in this situation, or this is how I would feel, or this is how I would respond. And so we sort of take our way of doing things and assume it's true for the other person. And I think that is a phenomenal first step to actually ask some questions and figure out

where the other person is coming from. Yeah, we can't expect other people to operate or think or behave like how we are, because everybody grew up in their own families. They've developed their own belief systems. Usually by age seven, there's also usually childhood wounds or unresolved trauma that went on it somewhere. And everybody's kind of has that somewhere in their life usually. And so a lot of these time, what's happening when there's disconnect, how we handle conflict really is rooted back to our childhood wounds and how we handle

those things in the home and what defense mechanisms we developed, what, you know, to go into that fight or flight response and protecting ourselves. And so if we're expecting someone else to operate the same exact way we're doing, we're just creating even greater disconnects and miscommunication. Well, I think if you have these expectations, they lead to disappointment at the end of the day. And so that's why we always really try to focus on values and goals versus expectations because then we get out of our own way.

And then we're also not going to like hurt ourselves or feel let down if the other person does operate or think differently than we do well said and You said assess was the first part of a four-step process. Yes So would you mind walking us through the next three steps? Yes, and this once we've assessed the disconnect then we would set the boundary which is the s in the ASAP so set the boundary on the value that you need to have met. And next step is A, agree to a mutually beneficial plan. So we're negotiating a plan that works for both people and we're creating that actionable step in order to

have the boundary in place. And then P is proceed with accountability. With the agree to a mutually beneficial plan, is this a collaborative discussion or do you come in with an offering that you think is mutually beneficial? What are some tips about how to create that plan? Yeah, so when we're setting the boundary, we're ending with a discovery question, how can we get to X or whatever that goal is? And so you're opening up the communication channels to give the person who sort of has disrespected you in some

way, shape or form, or there's a disconnect, whatever that may be, you're giving them the opportunity to first lead and present solutions. And if they aren't able to, then you can say, have you thought about this? Or can we talk about this in further detail and look at it by impositioning two different solutions? And sometimes by doing that, you give the other person an opportunity to present ideas as well. And so then you're sort of having this ping pong effect where each person has a voice

to come to that mutually beneficial resolution and agreement that you're going to be both honoring as you proceed forward. Okay, you said the last step was proceed with, and I don't remember what you said, accountability. I was like, I feel like that word was in there. This feels like an incredibly important and very tricky step because I think sometimes people unconsciously are like, let's see if this person's serious about this or you're setting up something that's outside of their habit or outside of how your relationship has functioned up to this point.

This is going to take some practice. So what are some suggestions, tips, ideas of how to have these accountability moments and conversations once the mutually beneficial plan has been set? Yes. So as you mentioned, yes, people have innate behaviors that they've been doing potentially for the last 30, 40 years that they've developed. And so when these innate behaviors, and you were asking for a change in behavior within the dynamic so it can function in a change in behavior within the dynamic,

so it can function in a healthier way, sometimes that person, even if they agreed to the boundary, they might revert back to their old innate behaviors. And so if that happens, just like, previously we agreed to XYZ, it seems like we've got sidetracked from our goal. Does this boundary still work for us or do we need to find a new plane of action? And they might say, oh yeah, Y, Z, it seems like we've got sidetracked from our goal. Does this boundary still work for us, or do we need to find a new plan of action? And they might say, oh, yes, sorry, I forgot about that, or yes, this no longer works for me. We might need to renegotiate the boundary.

So we do need to have patience in terms of seeing a change in behavior, but also know that if that boundary is not being upheld, we need to reinstate it and reset it. So I often think, and I think you sort of said this as well, is like giving people a little bit of grace upfront. That doesn't mean that you let them blow through the boundary.

It just means we don't assume that they're automatically trying to be a jerk and throw your boundary at it. It might be an unawareness or outside of habit. There might just need to be a reinforcement or a reminder of the mutually agreed upon plan. Or do you get to a point with someone where they've not held up their end of the bargain, you've given them the benefit of the doubt, you've done the reminders, you've had the conversations. Like, how do you know when a boundary is like, okay, we need to reset a new boundary and that is? Yeah, I think that's going to be different for every individual in terms of what their ultimate

threshold or limit may look like so maybe you say hey I'm gonna give this person like three chances to continue on actually honoring this boundary If they can still continue not to honor it then that's where you might have to say I'm only gonna limit my communication or interaction with this person one hour a day or Two hours a month whatever that may be you start, you establish a new personal boundary for yourself, not for the relationship so much, but for yourself to protect your own emotional wellbeing

and mental health and whatnot. So that brings me to one last question about some boundaries just being internal. Like not every boundary involves having to communicate with another person. Sometimes it's just deciding something for yourself, like limiting time or exposure or interaction or something like that. Any tips about setting and keeping a boundary with yourself? Because sometimes we get a little loosey goosey with ourselves. It's easier because we're not so public about whatever it is

that we're setting a boundary about. Any tips there? Yes. So when it comes to personal boundaries, we have them in our lifestyle every day. Like I have to go to the gym, or so I want to eat healthy meals. Or I have to stick to my appointments and be on time.

So these are all types of personal boundaries we may have in our day-to-day life that protect our emotional and physical well-being. When it comes to having personal boundaries, the best thing to do is align it to your value system of what it is that you value. So pick your top five values, which the exercises in our book that we wrote, Boundary Badass, when you pick your top five values and create alignment to them every single day, that becomes your inner voice. That's your authentic truth.

And so that can help hold us accountable that we're creating fulfillment in our life by being in alignment to our values on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, now you can create, so just like people talk about positive affirmations in order to have like a positive mindset or to be able to meditate whatever it is you're trying to really work on that mindset. Our value system really allows us to align to like she said, have that alignment and that's also going

to help you if you're honoring your values, you're going to that's how you're going to know if someone crosses one of your values in regards to that because you're going to, that's how you're going to know if someone crosses one of your values in regards to that because you're living your value system every single day. So if I value communication as one of my top values, I'm going to make sure when I communicate with my partner or communicate with my business partner, my sister, like I'm going to make sure that my communication is on par and I'm going to make sure I'm honoring that every day in my life because I can't ask for something from someone else if I don't truly live by it

first and foremost. So well said. Okay, one last question. Jillian, you had said earlier that one of the mistakes we often make is not communicating our boundary and waiting until like emotions are at its highest. When do you think that boundaries should be communicated? I think boundaries should be communicated

as soon as possible because if we wait too long to set the boundary and further explore what happened, that other person is going to be like, where are you coming from? Or all of a sudden, if you, especially if you approach it two days later or five hours later, they're gonna be so confused about where you're coming. So if you, especially if you approach it two days later or five hours later, they're gonna be so confused about where you're coming.

So if you can set it sooner and later, that's also gonna show self-respect for yourself and try to maintain that mutual respect because your communicating is so important and voicing your value is the biggest tool and asset we have in life. Jan, anything to add? I just think if we stay silent

and keep shoving everything under the rug, eventually, yes, it explodes like a volcano. And that's when we lose the power of our voice when trying to communicate what it is to have our needs met. But if we don't set a boundary and a behavior continues on and on, we're inadvertently agreeing to that behavior as acceptable and that person's going to continue that behavior because they are not aware of the fact that this behavior is crossing our limits or making us uncomfortable. Yeah, I think you both make excellent points. It's silence is agreement.

And if we're not communicating along the way, people are like, where is this coming from? We've been doing it like this for five hours, five months, or five years, and now all of a sudden. And so that's not to say, if it's been five years and you need to communicate a boundary, you got to do it. But do it sooner rather than later. I think it is beneficial to everybody involved. Yeah, because we're all on our own self-development journey,

I think, throughout our entire lives. I don't ever think, like, I'll stop even working on myself. That's how we become, you know, high value in life. But yes, if something's going on for five years, it doesn't mean you can't change that behavior or ask for that behavior to be changed today. Thank you, Jan and Jillian, for being here today to talk about boundaries. And I know our listeners are going to want to learn more Thank you, Jan and Jillian, for being here today to talk about boundaries.

I know our listeners are going to want to learn more about you and your work. 28consultancy.com is the website. That's the number 28consultancy.com. Absolutely get your hands on their book, Boundary Badass. You can get it on Amazon or go to your local bookstore. What a great resource for all of us. Thank you both for being here today and for the great work that you're doing.

Yeah, thanks for having us. All right, friends, before we wrap up, let me leave you with an example. A boundary for me would be to not entertain negative reviews that don't give any context. Like there's one out there that just says stop. That's it, that's the entire review. So I'm assuming they mean stop being so fr awesome to which I respond. No, thank you

I'm gonna keep on shining or reviews that clearly don't align with what I know to be true Like when people assume I'm anti men or any other gender because I know that's just not the case my boundary is to not let those reviews affect me and Ultimatum on the other hand would be something like if you don't leave me a five-star review, we can't be friends. Or I'm gonna stop recording if I don't get a certain amount of reviews this week,

or I'm gonna quit if I get a one-star review. See the difference? One is about what I won't make space for in my life, and the other is more like a temper tantrum. One is about being in charge of myself, and the other is about trying to manipulate and control others. I'm not sure that's the best example ever,

and I definitely had a lot to learn from Jan and Jillian in this episode, but it's one that I've had to practice in real life. And practicing boundaries is all about clear communication and mutual respect, whether you're navigating relationships or podcast reviews. So practice.

Practice staying true to yourself. Practice prioritizing what matters most. Practice communicating your needs. Practice honoring yourself, one foot in front of the other towards what matters most. That is woman's work.