This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Corporate Reckoning: Why Companies Can’t Outrun Their Past (And Why You Should Care) with Sarah Federman | 405

Starting point is 00:00:00 This episode is brought to you by FedEx. These days, the Power Move isn't having a big metallic credit card to drop on the check at a corporate lunch. The real Power Move is leveling up your business with FedEx intelligence. And accessing one of the biggest data networks powered by one of the biggest delivery networks. Level up your business with FedEx, the new Power Move. Okay. When I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice. I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community.

Starting point is 00:00:38 Then it's the vacation of a lifetime. I wonder if my out of office has a forever setting. An IG Private Wealth Advisor creates the clarity you need with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IDPrivatewealth.com. Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing women's work in the world today.

Starting point is 00:01:20 And because that's our mission, most of our conversations live in the day to day. The decisions we make, the boundaries we set, the confidence we build. You know the stuff that you can actually do something with on a Wednesday afternoon. But this episode isn't exactly that. At least I don't think it is. Today we're talking about corporations. massive institutions, global brands, the kind of entities that shape economies, influence culture, and whether we like it or not, leave a legacy. And here's where it gets uncomfortable. Some companies have cultures, histories, and legacies they'd much prefer get swept under the rug, things that don't exactly align with the values on their websites or the polished culture

Starting point is 00:02:03 you'd hear about in an interview. And I know there's a very real temptation to say things like, let's just leave the past in the past. But history doesn't work that way. It lingers in systems, in privilege, in wealth, and opportunity or lack thereof. And increasingly, we're seeing companies being asked or called out to answer for it. Now, I know what you might be thinking. Cool, Nicole, but I don't run a multinational corporation. I'm just trying to get through my goddamn inbox.

Starting point is 00:02:33 Same friend, same. So let's be clear. This episode isn't about giving you a five, step action plan to go fix corporate America before lunch. But it is about curiosity. It is about what can we do. Because even if we're not CEOs of billion dollar companies, we are participants in these systems. We work inside them, buy from them, benefit from them, and hopefully challenge them. And the question being asked at the corporate level about responsibility, accountability, and what we owe for what came before us, those questions don't just live at the

Starting point is 00:03:09 top. They're everywhere, from institutions being called out for ties to slavery or genocide, to more recent still unfolding questions about power, abuse, and exploitation. Which brings us to today's guest. Sarah Fetterman is an associate professor of conflict resolution at the University of San Diego's Crock School of Peace Studies. She's the author of the award-winning books, transformative negotiation and last trained to Auschwitz, and her new book, Corporate Reckoning where she explores how companies can confront historical harms, not just because they have to, because it might be the only way forward. She's testified before Congress on corporate accountability and brings a deeply researched and very practical perspective on what it actually looks like for

Starting point is 00:03:57 institutions to confront their past. So Sarah, welcome to the show. I'm super glad you're here. And I figured it would probably make the most sense to start by asking you to explain. what you mean by corporate reckoning. Can you give us an idea or some examples of what we're even talking about here? Absolutely. But I was taking notes as you were doing the intro. I'm like, oh, she said that so well. Thanks. Yay. It's funny to hear people say it differently. So I think probably the best way to explain it is to say how I got interested in it, two different ways. One was that I grew up in a family business that operated in South Africa during apartheid, but through the UK office. So it wasn't illegal. But as I was in school, I was in teenager, learning like, hey, wait a minute,

Starting point is 00:04:44 there's apartheid. And why do we have an office there? And that office really gave us like financial security because our company, my family's business had a monopoly there. And as I got older, I got like deeply uncomfortable about that and started to try to talk to once the company was sold, I tried to talk to people who were, people still won't talk about really what had happened in that time and try to talk to my family about that. So that's sort of like, uncomfortable feeling I've always sort of had about, you know, what do I sort of owe to South Africa and South Africans by contributing? And then, and the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission did name another, a number of industries that really upheld apartheid, that

Starting point is 00:05:26 apartheid could not have been sustained in South Africa without the extraction industry, the media industry and other industries that actually, as you said so well, like actually uphold the structures in the past. So that's one. And then I was living in France for work and I got really interested in the role of the railways, the French railways in the Holocaust. And they were in the middle of a process to make amends for that role. And that's where that first book came from. And then it started to branch out because people had other examples and I got interested in those. Okay. So fascinating and wildly important. I call myself a World War II history buff. I swear like any book I grab off the shelf,

Starting point is 00:06:08 it somehow has a World War II tie in, and like not on purpose. And I have never once thought about the railroads specifically and the role that they played and the contribution they made to the concentration camps. So that is a really good example where I think us in our day-to-day lives as a consumer, we often don't make connections or think about how larger corporations are contributing to bigger global issues.

Starting point is 00:06:44 It's a little scary. It is, actually. I didn't realize until I did the research that the Holocaust could not have happened without the participation of the railways. Most people arrived by train. And then as I started to look at all of our human-inflicted mass atrocities, none of them happened without corporate participation. So when companies say no, we don't want to participate, and a lot of people who are history buffs and look back at those companies, why did they participate? But then you look around us today and you're like, well, those people are afraid of getting shot. Like these people aren't even afraid of getting shot, you know, and we participate all in various ways to different things that we know are going on.

Starting point is 00:07:24 Okay. So I said this in my introduction. I have a feeling there is a lean towards, okay, but let's use the roads as an example. Whoever's running those companies today had nothing to do with that. Why don't we just leave the past in the past? What's the value or the use in bringing it up today or trying to hold people accountable in some way for something that they specifically individually had nothing to do with in history? Yeah. Not only. It's so true. And it's such a good question.

Starting point is 00:07:57 the executives I was talking to at the French railways actually were both Holocaust impacted. They were Jewish. So not only did they not do it, they were impacted. In their case, they couldn't ignore it because Holocaust survivors confronted them and said, hey, by the way, I know you keep bragging about your role in the resistance, but I was forced on your train. Or my family was forced, crammed into a cattle car and never came home. They were not willing passengers. So sometimes institutions don't have a choice because people dig up the history. and confront them with it. Part of it is, like, the French Railways wants, it's like the veins of France. It has, like, such an important role in the country. And that to be sort of a full member of the country, it has to do its reckoning work like

Starting point is 00:08:43 the French government did and say, okay, this is not us, this is who we want to be today. It's very difficult for an organization to have a value statement or an ethics statement without acknowledging the past and saying, we didn't do this before. but this is who we are today, right? And so it becomes very inauthentic to have any kind of statement without acknowledging something as big as that. Couldn't agree more.

Starting point is 00:09:09 And I feel like we see more instances of people doing this badly in today's day and age than effectively. So based on your research, what does effective reckoning work look like? What needs to happen or exist in order for it to move people and the corporation forward versus having them stay stuck. I don't know if I'm asking that very well.

Starting point is 00:09:36 Yeah, no, it's a great question. And we're all connected to these brands, by the way, in one way or another, whether it's our bank or employer, like the museums we go to, the universities we attended. Like, they're all in on it, you know, if they're older than 100 or 50 years even. So the first is, and I love this because I love history, and it sounds like you do too, is to really study the histories of these places. Like, not the ones that the great-great-grandson wrote. Those are like hero tales,

Starting point is 00:10:05 and they don't help us understand the compromises and choices that were made. Most company timelines are very thin. But I just worked with a bourbon company that really wanted to better understand their history. And a grad student and I had so much fun, just like what the heck was going on? Then you take that history and you say, okay, based on parts of it weren't terrible,

Starting point is 00:10:26 but parts of it weren't as great, you know, and so then how do we respond to that in the present? But I think the first is actually a really open, energizing conversation where you let historians in there, you dig around, you find out what happened, without taking it personally, you don't do it. You know, it's like we study our nation's history, like, okay, we had Japanese internment camps, you know, there was slavery here, like, it's just what so. And then figure out, yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:53 So I think people get quickly worried about how much they're going to have to spend, or the shame or taking it personally, rather than having that discovery first. And I think that's just what I really encourage. And in the book, I just talk about like the different kinds of history and a little bit how to do that. But as a history person, I think that part's super fun. Yeah, agreed.

Starting point is 00:11:14 And you mentioned national history briefly there. I think that is a good example of where I think most people's inclination or perceived responses more to try. to ignore and deny. I personally don't appreciate that as a history person. I think it is so important that we understand the good and the bad of everything. But what do we lose? What are the consequences? What are the problems for us and for corporations when they go the ignore and deny route? Yeah. It's really tempting to tell just the glory story because it makes us feel good and we feel proud about where we work. The thing, the risk of it, the risk of it is more about, and I'm sure you talk

Starting point is 00:12:00 about this on your show, is like resilience. How can you be adaptable? If you think the people before you just went from one great innovation to the next and then suffered a few economic disruptions, but made it anyway, it doesn't help you understand the kinds of ethical decisions and even strategic decisions they were making at the time. You know, most business schools use case studies to teach business because you want to learn from the failures of others to make better decisions today. But if in your company you're not doing that, then how are you going to learn? So it doesn't help with learning. People feel the inauthenticity because I think we know that if anything's too perfect, it probably isn't true. So there's more authenticity. But really resilience. Yeah,

Starting point is 00:12:45 it doesn't prepare people, prepare any of us for our times if we pretend the past was sort of all glorious or sanitized. Yeah. I have to imagine, too, most consumers would prefer things be acknowledged than pretending. Like, I always think with certain things like, we know, right? We know what you're doing. We know what happened or we're hearing about it. And to pretend, ignore, deny actually makes me as a consumer not want to work with your

Starting point is 00:13:16 corporation. Yeah. And maybe I'm just more wired that way. I don't know. But I empathize too. When I found out that Hugo Boss made all the Nazi uniforms, I had this amazing Hugo Boss shirt that I had bought in Warsaw of all places. You know, I bought it in Poland where, you know, where Auschwitz is. And I'm like, but I love the shirt. But it just feels so creepy. Like, I wish I didn't know. Yeah. So there is an element of like, I go through the grocery store. I'm like, I wish I didn't know about you. I wish I didn't know about you. But then I do feel more power in making my own choices. I think Cynthia Enloe is a woman who wrote about how. how women actually have far more power in foreign policy and these kinds of things than they realize because they're purchasing decisions, where the families go on vacation, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:59 all of that is actually what moves markets in a tremendous way. So women are often overlooked because they're less invited to the table where the big decisions are made, but they're driving things, too. So I think it really matters what women know, even in the household about what they're bringing in. And increasingly so if what's being monitored by the government in terms of chemicals and things, you know, isn't so guaranteed. We're going to have to be more vigilant. Excellent point. I read somewhere that women are responsible for something like 85% of all consumer spending or something like that. So the idea that we don't have power is really quite ridiculous.

Starting point is 00:14:41 And that is one great way that we have power. But you mentioned something before we hit record that I wanted to dive in on. And I'm just going to put it under the where corporate reckoning is sort of coinciding with woman's work, right? So where are women playing a role or not playing a role in all of this corporate reckoning that needs to happen and is happening? Yeah, it's so interesting because there is this, we're talking about how there's this expectation that women clean up. Women do the caring in society. Women and cleaning up can be dirty histories. Or we're talking about the helping, the peace work, you know, the caring professions.

Starting point is 00:15:25 I'm sure you talk about how the caring professions are undervalued monetarily. So there's this expectation we had a listen to a colleague the other day and she said it so well. She goes, men start the wars, but women are supposed to end them, but we're never allowed to the meetings where they end them. And then we have to clean it up for free. And I was like, that was it. That was it. And women have done that forever, right? Women have played that role in many ways.

Starting point is 00:15:51 So that's where I think women do have a voice and asking for these issues to come up. If they care about the supply chain, like what's happening? Like when I pick up an object, I kind of think about who are all the people that contributed to this, you know, and that they matter. And I know the present seems more important than the past, but the past lingers in the present. And I think you said that very well in the opening, that history lingers. If you're the affected communities can tell you about it much more easily. A thousand percent. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:22 And I think the affected communities are the ones who both deserve and are demanding this reckoning so that people can move forward. I think there is this belief sometimes that people are bringing things up because they want to stay stuck in the past. And my interpretation in a lot of situations is that. no, we want to be able to move forward, but we can't step over this very big thing that we know and we can't unknow. Yeah. And I think one way to think about it is it feels like either or past or present. And more the visual is like thinking of a big family table or maybe it could be

Starting point is 00:16:59 a corporate boardroom and just one seat for the past. I'm just saying one, you know, one seat. So you have a big corporation, you've been around a while or a big institution. You need to have a group or 2% of your time, just focus on the things that are lingering from the past. Sorry to break in, but this part matters. Rate the show, share it, and support the sponsor so I can keep making episodes worth interrupting you for. Local news is in decline across Canada, and this is bad news for all of us. With less local news, noise, rumors, and misinformation fill the void, and it gets harder to separate truth from fiction. That's why CBC News is putting more journalists in more places across Canada,

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Starting point is 00:18:39 WestJet, where your story takes off. I know in your book you talk about a five-step reckoning model that is meant to serve both the long-term interests of a company and those that have been basically impacted from any misdeeds. Can you talk us through that in a high level? Yeah, it's actually simple. Like, I'm maybe like embarrassingly simple. But first, you got to know your history.

Starting point is 00:19:05 So do the history, then revise any material. you have, right, based on what you found. So if you're telling sort of a half story, tell a better story. You want to make a statement, but first, in-house. You want to tell your own people what you're doing so that you don't like make a public statement. And then like some employee gets a text message from their mom who's like, I read this article about your slavery history of your employer. And you're like, ah, you got to tell your own people first. And then you might want to make a public statement or an apology just depending on what it is. And I talk about in different examples of, statements, ones that landed well, ones that didn't land well and why. And throughout you want to work

Starting point is 00:19:44 with impacted communities to get ideas about how best to contribute. I'll tell you, it's a lot easier to do this before being sued. Because once you're sued, anything you do is seen as just trying to dig your way out. So there will be resentment in the some people in the affected communities just because the harm usually was so great. But you'll find people who want to partner. And then together you can create meaningful programs going forward. Okay, so that you know some companies where it landed well or didn't land well, can you give us some of those examples? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:17 So there's a really great statement that Lloyds of London made, if people go to the website and see how they treated their slavery history, they say, you know, we're old. We had this chapter. We were part of this transatlantic slave trade. We're really shamed about that. And this is what we're doing. the ones that go well follow this format of apology. And by the way, this works really well in your personal life too.

Starting point is 00:20:43 The parallels are sometimes eerie, like why it works in your personal life. But when you're first, you say what you did, right? We did this, clearly, simply. Then the impact that it had on others. You know, we participated and that created this impact. As a result, this is what we're going to do to make. sure it never happens again. And this is how we're going to address that harm. You know, so it's, you know, what you, what you did, the impact it was, how you're going to fix it,

Starting point is 00:21:16 and how you're going to prevent it going forward. And that works with an apology because I'm sure, you know, you can think of examples or someone's like, oh, I'm sorry, and they're late again. You're like, so tell me how you're going to prevent being late next time. Yeah. And drinks are on you because I had to sit here, right? So, yeah, and it makes it sort of a complete statement. the French railways, they try to get away from saying, I'm sorry, because I'm sorry, sounds like guilt and they're afraid of liability. So there's a lot of, like, hedging around it. But studies have shown actually that if doctors apologize, they're sued a lot less than if they don't. Because people want it to be acknowledged.

Starting point is 00:21:54 Like, just say that you did it. And I had Holocaust survivors tell me, like, I just want to hear it. I've lived 70 years with you denying this and riding this train. just say that you did it. And it like, it legitimizes their experience. Great formula across the board, like you said, whether it's a large corporation or a personal apology or reckoning that needs to be had. I couldn't agree more.

Starting point is 00:22:17 I'm going to hone in on the word acknowledge. I think I'll speak for myself. More often than not, that's what I'm looking for. I want to be acknowledged. Yes, the apology is important. But when you dance around something, or, you know, sort of water it down or when I perceive that you're trying to avoid liability, and that could be litigious or just like being held accountable.

Starting point is 00:22:43 I don't feel like me or my experience as being acknowledged. And it's a sticking point. I almost can't move on from it. And I'm a little bit more rage oriented than other people, but that's always the part that feels missing. It's like you didn't acknowledge what happened and how it impacted people. As you said, this is the first two steps. It's amazing what it means to people.

Starting point is 00:23:07 And that all you have to do, that you have that power is also amazing, like that you could be in a company today and you could say something that can help people who've been living with pain for so long. That's an extraordinary power. That actually doesn't cost everything. And you can acknowledge it well without having, like, huge liability. I feel like this would be easier to do if it is something historical. Like if my predecessor or in our history to be able to say this is what our company did 50 years ago,

Starting point is 00:23:41 I don't understand what's so hard about that. Yeah. There's a way in which when we work at a company, we take on that identity sometimes and it feels like we did it. And it is true that once you start engaging with some of the impacted communities, they might forget that you didn't do it too. Some of the train executives were like, wait, like, we weren't. Nazis? Like, we're Jews. Like, how are we? You know, so some of that is just because the pain is irreparable. It's really hard to imagine what it's like to like, uh, Daniel, who I, who I met, who survived one of the youngest people to survive Auschwitz, towards the end of his life, he was

Starting point is 00:24:19 telling me, like, I can't remember anything before I was taken. Like, that whole life, excuse me, chills, like the whole person he was going to be is gone. And he had this picture of his parents up by his bed. And now they died at 30. So they're like 30 and he's 89 looking at this picture. Like, it's hard to get your head around that loss. He didn't live with a lot of anger, but it will be meaningful to a lot of people. You know, I'm so glad that you said that because that's exactly the point for the people who are harmed, it's current. It still probably lives and it's in them. Excellent point. So current. situation, like I think of the Epstein files as an example. I feel like there's going to need to be,

Starting point is 00:25:08 there should be, a lot of corporate reckoning with something very current. Now, this isn't past as in 50 or 100 years ago. This is like today. Shit. Any thoughts, advice? You know, we were just debating at our school whether J.P. Morgan should be allowed to recruit our peace and justice students when they were part of the Epstein thing, and they've got a number of things in their history that they haven't addressed. And it's like, is this the kind of employer we want to invite? So actually, if they said, like, this is horrible,

Starting point is 00:25:42 this is what we're doing, we're owning in it, then I feel differently. Like, okay, like, I know where you morally stand today. But if you don't condemn something and make a new commitment, I don't know what the commitments are. And a lot of young people are telling us, Like, they will take a lesser title, a lesser amount of money to be with someone that they feel more aligned with.

Starting point is 00:26:05 So, yeah, I think where we work makes a difference. I think companies that, they're big, right? So these companies are enormous. And they're not doing all one thing. So a wing of McKinsey that does something, I know, with the opioids and helps Purdue Pharma, is not the whole McKinsey. But yet, like, they have that umbrella. So I think that when we talk about the past, we start to see more what's happening in the present. It gives us a way to talk about it.

Starting point is 00:26:33 Hey, how are we going to be remembered? What are we doing right now that's going to be judged this way that we could do something about? What was so painful for a lot of the survivors in France around the French Railway is they had some margin of maneuver where they could have helped but didn't. And they're still haunted by that now in 2026 for what happened in the 1940s. like these companies are going to be haunted, especially by this moment, because there's a lot of corporate impunity right now, at least legally. But morally, that impunity doesn't last. And there is no what we call statute of limitations on crimes against humanity. So actually, companies are held, were held accountable for what they did during World War II, even though there weren't even laws about it.

Starting point is 00:27:21 So I'd say, like, I would think very carefully about moral courage right. now within an organization. Yeah. I mean, I think we're craving it. In my introduction, I sort of said or alluded to the idea that a lot of our topics impact our day to day and they're designed, you know, for our listener to be able to do something with them right away. And a topic like this, you know, can feel big and daunting and like we don't have a lot of impact. But you said this before we hit record. I couldn't agree more. We do have impact. We have choice in many ways. in where we work, in where we spend our dollars, and who we choose to support and who we vote for. There are lots of ways that we can impact this. So curious, your thoughts on that.

Starting point is 00:28:10 Yeah, there's lots of ways. And I find them sort of energizing. It's a moment where people can really feel that they can't control where things are going. Maybe we've always felt that in some degree, but I think now it's sort of heightened for a lot of people. But if you choose to, a brand does try to own, a mistake. If you just write them and say, thank you for acknowledging that, you know, thank you for trying. They're going to not do it perfectly right. But one is like calling out a good behavior. Like, you know, I see that that happened. I was so disappointed. A lot of people at my school are all grieving over Caesar Chavez and the article that just came out about his sexual exploitation of young women. Like, there's a lot of grief around that. You know, he can't make up for it because he's

Starting point is 00:28:56 did, but companies can actually speak out. And I think that's important. If you choose to not use a particular brand because of their decisions, tell them. I'm like, if you buy bananas once a month and then you just stop buying them to stick it to them, you know, they're not going to know, like, your $1.40 isn't like making it. But if you write them and let them know, I write companies who are trying and I say, hey, I just want you to know how much this means to me. Like, where are you in the process of changing your supply chain? You don't even need to be that detailed. You can just say I saw this article and what do you think? And oh my gosh, you would not believe. You would not believe they'll care if the people care. And we're seeing that because we're

Starting point is 00:29:41 seeing companies change decisions right now based on how people are canceling or not. I don't even know if this is an appropriate question to ask. So if it's not, we can edit it out. But, you know, there is a lot of noise out there. And I try to limit the amount of social media and news and article intake in any given day or week. Only for no other reason to protect my sanity at this point. And so sometimes we just don't know or, you know, it's hard to differentiate between the people who are doing the reckoning, the acknowledging, the owning and the people who. aren't. So my question is, do you have a, I don't know if list is the right word, but are there any companies, especially as women, that we should be really mindful of or be paying attention to where

Starting point is 00:30:35 we're spending our dollars, either because they're actively participating or refusing to reckon. What it's been so painful to lose has been meta and Facebook. Like, there's a book called careless people, which takes you, it just came out by Sarah Wyn Williams. She was very high up in Facebook and she gives you sort of some sense. But it talks about how, like, if a girl, a young girl removes a photograph of herself, they immediately start serving her weight loss and makeup ads because they sense that she's vulnerable and insecure. And like the predatory nature of that, like the company used to be much more about connecting

Starting point is 00:31:19 people. Like it was so exciting when Facebook started and the people who worked there were excited. But their commitments, they've made them pretty clear that they aren't there right now morally. And these algorithms are very powerful over us. So they have a lot of power. They're very addictive. So I think being very mindful for ourselves and what our kids are consuming, you know, in Silicon Valley, they don't give their kids smartphones. Like, they know the impact. So I think that's the one we all have to protect our brains around. I know there aren't tons of other choices. So I just sort of, you know, limit myself. That makes a big, that's a big one. I think that's public facing. I'll do a quick plug for substack. I don't think it has anything to do with the

Starting point is 00:32:04 meta. And you just get smart. Like, I think social media is a fucking cesspool. Like, the algorithms, the play on vulnerabilities, the constant messaging, especially we as women. and get the targeting of young men. I mean, there's just so many things. But even beyond that, I say this with love, but it's just gotten stupid. Like, I just feel dumber. Not only do I feel more uncomfortable and I'm wrestling with my confidence, but I feel dumber when I get off because everything's like condensed into these little snippets. And it's, and so substack has become a good place for me to spend time because you can again pick the content you want and it just feels like people are playing a much smarter game. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, keep going. I'm with you on Thub Thack. It's great.

Starting point is 00:32:58 I give myself five minutes on Instagram because I just love like the cartoons and the animals and then yes. I have a curated feed of hugs and like sarcastic humor and just yeah. And I'm the same. like it's minimal time and the minute it stops being pugs and funny sarcastic stuff, then I'm out. The other one I just, so I just was visiting a friend in tech there in Colorado and one of them actually helped create Alexa and they have canceled Amazon Prime. And I then got home and I was like,

Starting point is 00:33:34 you can do it, you can do it. Because the more you learn about Bezos and what he's doing and what he did to the Washington Post and anyway and what Amazon is done, And it's like you feel like you can't let it go. And then I let it go. I was like, I feel liberated. But then focus on buying in like bookstore.org.

Starting point is 00:33:50 Like gives money to local bookstores. There's thrift books. There's buying directly. And once in a while, I'm sure I'll still get things on Amazon. But it's the big ones. And then I think about the supply chain of my clothes. I'm working on getting companies who are a commitment in their supply chain. But I know people are making a lot of decisions and a lot more around food and health.

Starting point is 00:34:12 and that's going to be a really important area for people to focus, too, clean food. Oh, my gosh. This is such an important topic, and I'm sure we could talk for hours. But I want to give people, our listeners, a way to learn more and find and follow you. So, friend, if you're looking for more information, Sarah's book is called Corporate Reckoning. Go to your local bookstore. Let's keep them in business or bookshop.org. You can also find out more about Sarah and her work on her website, sarahfederman.com.

Starting point is 00:34:40 Sarah, thank you for doing this work, for being here today, and for challenging us to put a little bit more thought and expectation into the organizations we support and consume. And thank you for reminding us that reckoning and accountability and atonement are incredibly important pieces of the work that we all do. So thank you. Thank you. And I just think people don't realize how powerful they are in their personal. purchasing choices. Couldn't agree more. All right. Friend, here is an important shift that I am walking away with. Accountability isn't about punishment. It's about responsibility. It's about the willingness to look at what came before you and not to carry the guilt that isn't yours, but to

Starting point is 00:35:29 carry awareness that is, to ask better questions, to make more intentional choices, to leave things better than you found them, even when it's uncomfortable, inconvenient, or imperfect. Because whether we're talking about corporations or individuals, the instinct to avoid, deny, or minimize, well, that's easy. It's also human. But so is the capacity to face things, to learn from them, to do something different because of it. And maybe that's the real reframe here.

Starting point is 00:35:57 Reckoning isn't the end of the story. It's the beginning of another one where you do better. So whether you're leading a company, a team, a family, or just yourself, the question isn't, was this my fault? It's now that I know, what am I going to do with it? And asking questions like that, well, friend, that is woman's work. Hi, I'm Cassidy. And I'm April.

Starting point is 00:36:28 And together we are fashion historians, friends, and co-hosts of Dress, the History of Fashion, a podcast about why the clothes we wear matter throughout history and around the world. From the cultural and societal to the personal and often political, with each episode we explore the multitude of meanings, quite literally so near to the clothes we wear. Please join us in unraveling the hidden histories residing in your closet. New episodes are available on Wednesdays and our dressed classic episodes re-air each Friday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Corporate Reckoning: Why Companies Can’t Outrun Their Past (And Why You Should Care) with Sarah Federman | 405

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