This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - High-Functioning Codependency: When Being “The Strong One” Is Slowly Killing You with Terri Cole | 341

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Most of us think codependency looks like someone clinging to a toxic partner, losing themselves to someone else’s addictions, or being a doormat. But Terri Cole, licensed psychotherapist, global relationship and empowerment expert, and author of Boundary Boss and her brand-new book Too Much, is here to blow that outdated definition out of the water. Terri has spent over two decades working with everyone from stay-at-home moms to Fortune 500 CEOs, helping them break free from self-sacrificing patterns and build healthier, more authentic relationships. She inspires more than a million people weekly through her blog, social media, signature courses, and The Terri Cole Show podcast. In this episode, Nicole and Terri unpack high-functioning codependency—the kind that hides behind promotions, praise, and the “she can handle it all” reputation. Spoiler: it still feels like shit. Together, they dive into how to spot the signs, why resentment is the red flag you can’t ignore, and how boundaries, self-consideration, and surrendering (without self-abandoning) might be the antidote you’ve been missing. Because friend, if you’re exhausted, resentful, and constantly over-giving, this episode is your permission slip to drop the cape, stop fixing everyone else’s mess, and finally start considering yourself. Connect with Terri: Website: https://www.terricole.com/  Book: hfcbook.com  IG: https://www.instagram.com/terricole/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/TerriColeLCSW/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/terricoleny Podcast: https://terricole.com/itunes Related Podcast Episodes Healing Relationships: The 4 Essential Pillars for Lasting Love with Dr. Rachel Glik | 283 7 Rules of Self-Reliance with Maha Abouelenein | 240 How To Be Selfish with Naketa Ren Thigpen | 329 Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review:Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. dot ca. yamex summer's here

and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered But you can get a chicken parmesan delivered A cabana? That's a no But a banana? That's a yes. A nice tan, sorry, nope.

But a box fan? Happily yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select market. Its product availability may vary by Regency app for details. I am Nicole Khalil, and you're tuning in to the This Is Woman's Work podcast.

And friend, in full transparency, when I started preparing for this episode, I thought this topic would be great for other women, not me. I was thinking about the overgivers, the people pleasers, the people pleasers, the ones who can't seem to say no when it comes to saving someone else. Oh, those poor souls, right? But the more I read and prepared, the more I thought, well, shit, this topic might be for me and for you. Because I'm guessing, like me, when you hear the word codependent, you picture someone clinging to their toxic partner, enabling their vices, or quietly disappearing, surrendering and losing themselves to their one-sided relationship, a dormant, if you will. someone who can't make a decision for themselves, at least not without checking with the

stars, their spouse, mother, boss, extended family, the group chat, and the social media comments section. And that's exactly the problem. Most of us have a narrow and possibly outdated understanding of what codependency actually looks like. Because for a lot of us, especially the high achieving, hyper-capable, get shit done, no one does it better, so I'll just do it myself types. Co-dependency doesn't look like codependency. dependency. It looks like competence, like strength, like being the person who fixes everything, holds it all together and runs the damn show. On the outside, it looks like we're leading. On the inside, we're over functioning, over accommodating, overthinking, and overperforming. It may look good,

but it feels like shit. And I, for one, am over it. So that's what today's episode is all about. we're going to unpack the kind of codependency that earns promotions, praise, and a reputation for being someone who can handle anything. The kind that looks like success, but feels like self-abandonment in the name of being useful, likable, and needed. We're pulling back the curtain on what licensed psychotherapist Terry Cole calls high-functioning codependency. Terry has worked with everyone from stay-at-home moms to Fortune 500 CEOs and has seen this pattern show up in even the most successful of people, the ones who are praised for their selflessness, their capacity, and their ability to get it all done. Terry is a global relationship and empowerment expert, the author

of Boundary Boss, and her newest book, Too Much, a guide to breaking the cycle of high functioning codependency. You probably already know her as she inspires over a million people weekly through her blog, social media, signature courses, and her very popular podcast, The Terry Cole Show. So, Terry, I'm thrilled to have you on the show and would love to kick off the conversation by asking you to explain codependency and what led you to coin this phrase high functioning codependency. Well, thank you for having me, Nicole. I'm super psyched to be here. At being a psychotherapist for the past 27 years, I actually coined this phrase because there was a need. What was happening is that my, as you described so eloquently at the top, my demographic, my people who were in

my therapy practice were super high functioning women, you know, masters of the universe, getting it all done. And so when I would come to them and say, hey, what you're describing in that relationship is a codependent pattern, they would immediately reject the notion because they did not see themselves as codependent. They were like, what? Me? Terry, you know me. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money. I'm making all the moves. I'm doing all the emotional labor. What are you talking about? Which made me realize that. clients didn't really know what codependency was. They were being unduly influenced by the Melody Beatty codependent no more. I have to be enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. Or,

as you described, right, I'm like the waiting at home, pathetic crying as your partner spent all the rent money gambling. Like they didn't see themselves in any of those damsels in distress type things or weak or quote unquote pathetic. like this is all language that was coming from them, like, what? That isn't me. And so then I started doing a deep dive. And part of why, listen, what are they saying, Nicole? You teach what you most need to learn. So why is this flavor of codependency one that I needed to create? Because it was my own flavor of codependency. Because as you said, the irony is the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it is still codependency. So we're still. We're still

burnt out, we're still exhausted, we're still resentful, we still feel underappreciated in our lives, we're still controlling, we're still, you know, all of those things. So I also realized that there's more to it than just the way that you relate to your partner. With high functioning codependence, we also can have a tendency to be slightly codependent with the world, meaning when we're out in the wild and someone needs something, we're the first one to step in, like this auto-accommodating. So we'll get to what all the traits are, but there was a need. And so as soon as I renamed or just came up with, it's like it's just a different flavor of codependency, really. And I was able to talk to my clients about it. Instead of them rejecting

the notion, they all were able to raise their hand, as Taylor Swift would say, saying me, on the problem it's me, without shame, right? Without feeling bad. They were like, you're right. I am exhausted and I am incredibly high functioning and now I see myself in this definition. So obviously, then we could get to work because you can see the problem as a psychotherapist if you have a client who does not see themselves in the problem, how are you helping them get to a solution? Okay, so I guess that leads to the next question for me, which is knowing when you've crossed over into codependency because I would imagine for most of us, those listening in being ambitious,

being capable, being high capacity, giving, caring. These things are good things. But what it sounds like is we're taking them too far and it becomes unhealthy. So I guess my question is, how do we know when we've gone too far? How do we know when we're exhibiting high functioning codependency type behaviors. All right. So can we start with, let me give you my definition of high functioning codependency because then we'll all be on the same page. Yeah.

It means you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, situations, circumstances, relationships, careers, finances of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace, to the detriment of your emotional well-being. Could be your financial well-being, right? you could be supporting someone who you really can't afford or you're giving money or lending or whatever it is. I make the distinction about it being to the detriment of your peace because here's the thing. We're all mothers, sisters, daughters, lovers, partners, decent citizens. Of course, we're invested in the people that we love being happy and getting what they want. We're not talking

about that. The overinvestment of an HFC, as we call it, is that we go from, I really want, you, Nicole, to get what you want and feel the way you want to feel and have what you want in life. Two, when you're in HFC, I feel responsible, Nicole, for you getting what you want or how you feel, which is different. So one of the easiest ways to answer the original question here, which is how do we know, right, caring or codependent? And the question comes to me all the time from people. Well, we can say caring, codependent or controlling. Because at it's based any kind of codependency, whether it's the garden variety or whether it's high functioning, is the foundation of that behavior is an overt or covert bid, desire, attempt to

control other people's outcomes. And where does that need for control come from? Is it to be heroic? Is it to look good? Is it to be needed? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons, but there's a plethora. There's so many. But part of it is we don't want there to be any problems. We don't, I don't want you to be in pain because your pain is incredibly distressing to me. So I'm going to fix your pain so that my pain can end. You know, in the book I tell this story, which I'll tell quickly, but it actually was a pivotal story and really was the beginning of me even understanding what high functioning codependency was, is that one of my, I have, three older sisters, one of them had this history of bad relationships. So she was living in the woods

in upstate New York with a guy who was like emotionally verbally abusive. He was doing drugs. She was actively alcoholic. There was no running water and no electricity. And it was winter. So that's like an HFC's nightmare where you're like, oh my God, how can I do anything else in my life until I get her out of there? So I was talking to my therapist and I was bawling my eyes out and I don't know, week seven of, you know, the only thing I talked about in therapy was my sister basically. And finally, my therapy, because I was like, Bev, I've done everything. I've done everything. Like, what, what am I going to do?

And she said, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know, what Jenna needs to learn in this lifetime, and how she needs to learn it? And I immediately rejected that notion and said, well, I think we can both agree she doesn't need to do it with this effing a hole in the woods, you know, with no running water. Like, I feel like we can agree on that. And she said, no. I can't agree because I don't know what your sister needs to learn how she needs to learn it because I'm not God and neither are you, but do you know what's happening for you in all of your panic

about this? And I was like, obviously not, so help. And she said, you know, Tara, you worked really hard to create a harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire is really messing with your piece. You really want to tie that up in a neat bow so that you can, because I had just met my husband, you know, I had just become a bonus mom to three teenage boys. My husband was widowed. I just went from being a talent agent to becoming a psychotherapist. Like, my whole life was flourishing in a way. And yet, the only thing I could focus on was getting my sister out of this abusive relationship. And so I didn't even think I had a choice.

I was like, well, what are my options, buddy? Like, I'm just going to leave her there? And she was like, yeah. She's like, Tara, you need boundaries. And this was the beginning of having any understanding. And I was in my late, you know, late 20s, early 30s at this point. I've really grasped me at what an emotional boundary was and I was able to tell my sister

hey I love you and I cannot talk to you about this guy and when and if you ever want to get the hell out of there I'll always be your person no matter what and within nine months we only spoke a few times during that time because you know she would call me and tell me the horrendous stuff this guy was doing and then she'd be like I always feel so much better after talking to you I'm like why do I feel like Chernobyl

after talking to you like I just feel like a toxic waste sight like you're like i feel like someone barfed toxicity over me anyway she called about maybe eight and a half months later and said you know are you still my person i'm ready to get out of here and i was like uh yeah and then went and picked her up and here's the why any of this matters is that in allowing my sister to be the hero of her own story instead of her baby sister being the hero She got everything that comes with that. The self-esteem, she got into treatment, so she got into recovery. She went back to school.

She has never been in another abusive relationship, but this was decades ago. So it really made me see how by inserting myself, as HFCs do, in the center of someone else's problem, as the solution, what we're really doing is centering ourselves rather than tolerating. the way someone that we love in pain is making us feel. You know, I promise you that the real flex when it comes to love is not auto advice giving, is not fixing people, people as projects, it's not. It's being able to be in the foxhole during the dark night of the soul, and instead of fixing, witnessing compassionately, I'm here.

I don't have the answer, but I love you, and I'm not going anywhere. How can I best support you? It's asking them. you know so that was a huge pivotal moment in my life where I realized I even had a choice because up until that point the way that I was raised it's like your family anything you do you just keep going until you get that person out of there but there's a cost and it's negative to do that there's a cost to the relationship but there's a cost to that other person's self-esteem as well yeah can we talk for a second about how hard that feel

I mean, you know, when you love someone and you want the best for them. And then you said earlier, investing in the people that we care about to the detriment of our own peace and well-being. And yet I think so many of us have been socialized and taught to be self-sacrificing and to be giving and to there need to be sacrifices in relationships. This feels really important, but also really hard. Maybe because I'm a high functioning codependent. Is that a normal feeling? Yes, which is why we keep doing what we're doing. But part of what I invite you to do and I walk you through in the book is really seeing the cost. Because here's the thing. It's almost like you feel like setting limits

or having healthy boundaries with people or allowing people to have their own experiences is not loving. And the reality is co-opting their experience and making it be what you think it should be and judging them, because as HFCs, trust me, we are such know-it-all as it's ridiculous. And like I include myself and trust me, no judgment.

But, you know, we always have ideas. We are the auto-advice givers. We are the anticipatory planners. We are the auto-accommodators. We are hyper-independent. If we look at the traits of being a high-functioning codependent, hyper independence this means we're not great at asking other people for help we're not great at letting other people help us so we end up in this overfunctioning and underfunctioning dynamic and a lot of

relationships i mean i say this kidding but you know in my 20s like i could take a perfectly capable boyfriend and turn him into an underfunctioner in two weeks or less because i was like i got it i got it i got it right this is one of the mantras of an hFC or it has to be me Because we don't think other people will either do it the way we want it done. They won't do it right. They won't do it in the time frame. We want it. But as Janie Cole, my mother would tell you,

hey, Nicole, if you need it all done your way, you'll end up like her doing it all and doing it all yourself. Yeah. And it's like that also creates resentment because there's so much, you know, what is the fallout for living in this overfunctioning? way for decades is a nobody knows you because a lot of times you're saying yes when you want to say no you're always willing to take one for the team right so it's less about you even though it is it's about you controlling but it's more about you just want to make sure everyone else is

okay we just don't want any problems we just want there to be peace we want harmony we want people to be happy and well that's really what we want and yet going about it this way blocks deeper intimacy in our relationships. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western.

Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Oh, hi, buddy. Who's the best you are? I wish I could spend all day with you instead. Uh, Dave, you're Huff mute. Hey, happens to the best of us. Enjoy some goldfish cheddar crackers. Goldfish have short memories.

Be like goldfish. The white chocolate macadamia cream cold brew from Starbucks is made just the way you like it. Handcrafted cold foam topped with toasted cookie crumble. It's a sweet summer twist on iced coffee. Your cold brew is ready at Starbucks. Is it fair to? say there is an element of arrogance in this, too, this idea that we know better or that, yeah, okay. A resounding, yes. But again, what's interesting is that this is inadvertent, right?

Part of it is we're so reactionary when we're actively HFC that we are, there's a hypervigilance that goes along with these behaviors where we're always scanning for, problems that we can, you know, head off at the pass, basically. Whether it's between other people, like we always are taking the temperature of every room that we're in and making sure that everything is okay. But you can't do that and have like real relationships too. So probably one of the most important things, if we're looking at the traits, let's say, of high function and codependency, the auto advice giving one is probably the top one, feeling responsible to fix other people's problems. Overgiving, right, giving till it hurts. And a lot of times we're doing

things no one has even asked us to do. We just feel like it should be done. That needs to happen, so we just do it. Feeling exhausted, resentful, kind of bitter. Trampling on other people's boundaries, again, inadvertently. But when we are auto advice giving, that is trampling on someone's boundary. If they haven't asked you for your opinion, even if they have, my, my, my my thought, if people were like, hmm, I wonder what is the most important thing I could take away from this interview. Well, I'm going to give it to you right now. One of the most important things is if you are an auto advice giver and if you identify as an HFC, you are, instead of offering advice, no matter who comes to you, even if they're asking you, it could be a six-year-old, a 16-year-old

or 60-year-old. The first thing you're going to say is, okay, just before we get into it, tell me what you think you should do. and just stop talking. And you learn so much about the people that you love, even if it's a six-year-old who had a fight with Bobby at school and you go, okay, well, what do you think you should do tomorrow? Now, maybe the kid says, I think I should go in and punch him in the face. You're not going to be like, good plan.

Right. But it tells you what is in the kid's mind. Same thing with a 16-year-old. Same thing with a 60-year-old. You don't know. And so when we're so quick to want everything to be okay, to want to fix it to be like you don't have to suffer at all. Yes, you do

because this is a mandate of being a human being on planet Earth. We're going to struggle with things. It's okay for people to struggle. So you start with saying, all right, tell me what you should do. And if people are used to you giving them the answers because they are because you've been auto advice giving your ass

off for years, they're going to be like, but I want to know what you think. I'll always say. And listen, I do this for a living. So people, of course, they want to know what I think. I go, okay, in the end, I'm going to give you my two cents. But babe, it's so much more important what you think because it's your life. So what I think, you know, I'll tell you, but what you think is more important. Well, and I love the question because it has the added benefit of helping people build their own

internal confidence and trust and self and inner knowing and all of these things that I think we do so much better in life listening to, but we need to practice when to a certain extent we need to be taught and allowed. That's what jumped in my mind with that question, again, brilliant, across the board, no matter what age, but what we allow for another person when we do that, I think, is a gift. Such a great point, because I usually talk about the fact that what is the subtext when we're auto advice giving? We're like, I don't think you're going to figure this out.

For sure. For sure. you're not and we'd never want to that never is the message we want for kids for sure but even with grownups this is where the presumption that we know better comes in and people feel like problems for you to fix it is so dehumanizing i hate it when someone does it to me it makes me so mad i will immediately say hey i'm for my my hFC friends which of course we all travel and pack so i have plenty of them um i'll say hey i'm not looking for sule I love you. I just want to vent. I'm just feeling bad. And I just want to be witnessed.

Can you just be with me where I am right now? And also, because I've got a big enough ego that it would piss me off, I'd be like, you think you have the answer for my, look at my life. Right. I'm doing okay. Right. I know how to figure shit out. But there's something that's so loving to be like, I'm here, even though this is uncomfortable, but I'm here. with you. Another one, the traits, Nicole, that I wanted to point out, because I think it's very common. We have auto advice giving. We've got the self-sacrificing. But the auto-accombinating and the anticipatory planning. So auto-accombinating is something that we sort of do in public, in public spheres, like controlling things. It could be on a plane. Somebody wants to sit together

and you're like, well, move, you know. And again, people on the interwebs out in those interweboreb streets want to tell me, hey, Terry, maybe I'm just nice. I'm like, here's the thing. I have no doubt you are nice. But if you can't not do it, it is a compulsion. It is not your niceness. Okay? So we have to look at that. If you can pause, which I teach you to do in the book, all these steps of like, how do I stop this automatic behavior that is just killing my nervous system and not good for my relationships and all of those things, is we have to pause. We have to take a break. If you decide, because some people would be like, well, I love basically overgiving. I'm like, go you. If it's a conscious choice and your eyes are wide open, as from a therapeutic

point of view, that's all I want for people, that you're not running on autopilot because you will not build the life that you want. You know, I've had women come into my practice and their sixth, seventh, eighth decade of life being like, I've done it all. I've done, you know, kids are all on track. They've all gone to Ivy League schools. I'm on these boards. I'm still going a soul cycle. I kind of like my husband. We travel. Like, and literally their question to me is, is this all there is. Right. And I'm like, yeah, because you built your life, checking boxes that other people constructed, taking one for the team, saying yes, when you want to say no, being overly self-sacrifice until the point where you don't even have a cell, you don't even know

who you are. And so there's an existential crisis that can come about from that life. And you deserve so much more than that, you know? So what I'm hearing is it's the distinction between default versus choice and then thinking through the choice from the lens of how am I going to feel doing this or after doing this. You mentioned resentment a couple times. I would imagine that's a pretty big tell if we have defaulted into codependency versus making the conscious choice

of wanting to be nice or giving. So talk to us about resentment what it's selling us. Yes. I love it. It's one of the first things in you guys listening, you can do this right now, right? Is take a quick resentment inventory

because this acts as a very heck at GPS as to what relationships probably need your attention, meaning, maybe you're overfunctioning. Maybe you need to set a limit. Maybe you need to set a boundary. Maybe you need to have a conversation. But I love using resentment. It's such a value, it's such good data for us to look at. So you can, let's just say, go okay, so who am I copying resentment for right now? Okay, so maybe it's your sister, let's say. I'm mad at my sister. You know, I share this in a Bounder Boss book, when me and my sister were living in New York, we both had separate apartments. She had keys to mine. I had keys to her. Anyway, she would go into my

apartment and take my things without telling me. So multiple times, I've been like, hey, man, you need to ask me. Like, I'm looking for something, but I don't have it because it's at your place or whatever it is. So if that were the case, I'd say, okay, I'm resentful because she does that. And before I had a conversation with her, then you look and go, all right, what is my 50% of this. Well, my 50% was, before I talked to her, is that I hadn't, I would mention it, but I hadn't had a serious conversation. She didn't know how much it was actually bothering me. So what is the action plan that I could take? Is I could have an honest conversation with her. And I would eventually, and I did, set a consequence that if she didn't stop,

I was going to take my keys back, which is a drag, because then I knew she'd take her keys back and we'd only have one closet instead of two, right? Just don't be an idiot. Just let me know what you're doing. So that's how you guys are going to do it. You're going to look at what are you feeling? What is your partner? And is there an action that you can take, which you don't have to take today. But it's really understanding because, of course, whatever action we can take is empowering. So how do we empower ourselves in our lives? I think a lot of us get very used to having this low-grade resentment running, it's almost like this low-grade aggravation,

like we just can't wait. We're like, please let some motherfucker cut me off in traffic. I cannot wait to explode on this person. If you're in this state, if it almost feels like perpetual annoyance, to me that's a lot of times an indication of high-functioning codependency, where we're getting to a point

where the way that I see the cycle is that when you're younger and you've got all the bandwidth on the world, you get too many Fs to too many people, just caring about all the things. And then after a long time, that pendulum swings all the way to the other side. And I'm teaching a class right now on this. And someone was like, I'm so bitter about,

I don't want to do anything in caps for anyone in caps, is what the question was. And I feel bad. She's like, my husband asking about, for anything, I literally want to kill them. Like I'm so done because we wait too long to manage what we need to manage. We don't set limits. We don't tell the truth about the way we feel. We feel trapped in this behavioral dynamic that we've begun doing all the things for all the people and we don't know how to stop. So what I teach you in the book is how to stop.

But respect your resentment because it has so much to teach you about next steps. Well, and what I'm hearing, too, is catching it early on, noticing it early on, because what I know I've done is let resentment build and fester and not acknowledge my responsibility in it and how I'm in effect enabling the situation. Yeah, absolutely. I have a pet peeve around the term self-care. I feel like it's tossed around and misused and drives me bananas. But you talk about self-consideration. Correct. Help us with the distinction, and I think I'm going to love this a lot better.

Yeah, I'm with you on the self-care because it's done to death and nobody even knows what it means. You're like, mani, petty, mask, what is it? Self-consideration is the big umbrella that real self-care goes under, but because I'm a therapist, the way that I also look at real self-care is in every decision you're making, you are considering yourself first. so what you think how you feel and what you want has to matter but here's the thing it has to matter to you more than what anyone else wants thinks or feels which people think is selfish they're like oh my god no because we can and we will still choose to compromise if you're in relationships we can still self-sacrifice consciously if we choose to mindfully if we want to but

But what happens is when we prioritize what other people want, think, and feel over what we want think and feel. First of all, a lot of times we eventually don't even know what we want think or feel. But we then put that responsibility on other people. We now turn it into the fact that other people are entitled. And I remember having this conversation with a therapist in my late 20s. And she was like, is Betty entitled? or are you just serving yourself up on a silver platter and you're just pissed?

She's like, Terry, takers are going to take. And you are this consummate giver and you're mad. You're offering and you're mad she's taking you up on it. How about stop offering, you know, like stop blaming the other person. So yes, anyway, long way around the barn to get back to the fact that self-consideration encompasses making decisions where you consider yourself first. And if you're in a family system or a marriage or you have kids, listen, this doesn't mean we're like a kid needs to get picked up from ballet.

We're going to pick that kid up whether we want to or not. You can self-consider yourself all day and you're still going to get in the car and go get them. Right. It's not that, but it's about being honest with yourself and allowing yourself to just not want to do things. Sometimes I just don't want to. Why do we feel like that's not, you know, you don't have to write a fucking dissertation on your know. you really don't. There are things I just personally don't like to do. I don't like, let's say, like outside concerts. I don't like that. So when people ask me, I'm like bugs and sun and people singing, no, I don't want to do that. Thank you. So I'm not, what do my friend invent outside

concerts? You shouldn't be offended. Of course, nobody asked me to do that anymore because they all know. But it's almost like we feel overly responsible for like, I don't want to hurt someone's feelings. And you're like, how about in all of that time that you self, abandon, you're hurting your own feelings. And this builds the resentment. And creating distance in your relationships, right? When we self-abandoned, we are not being authentic and transparent and present in our relationships. Absolutely. Okay, so I know in the book you emphasize allowing and surrendering as sort of the antidote to controlling and codependency. and Mel Robbins, Let Them Theory, just came out.

Where do these intersect or not? Is there a similarity? I'm curious, your thoughts on let them allowing, surrendering, as it relates to those of us who identify as high-functioning codependence. I think it's a little less simple than. It's not as simple as let them in my estimation, although I do actually talk about it in the book. There's a bunch of things that need to show.

for us to get into recovery, which is all we can hope to do, because this is an ongoing situation. Because you may, oh, I still want to overfunction for everyone in the world. I just don't. It's just like drinking. I stopped drinking in 1987. Does that mean I don't want to drink? No. It just means I change behavior. It just means I just don't drink. And this is the same thing. And it gets less and less, of course. So when it comes to other people, when you start asking expansive questions instead of auto advice giving or being all directive, you're already shifting the dynamics in your relationship. You're already going to be deepening your real closeness with others. It's hard to put down the protection of knowing everything. It's hard to

put down that we use our high functioning ways to protect ourselves emotionally. But you're strong And so it's okay to just not know. It's okay. We have to learn to let the chips fall where they may when they're not our motherfuckin' chips, as I like to say. And we think all the fucking chips are our chips when we're HFCs. But they're really not. So yes, surrendering to what is, right? That's what I had to do in my sister's situation. I had to surrender to the fact that she was a sovereign being and that that was the situation that she was in, even though it made me incredibly uncomfortable and sad. And that it was her right to learn. Because here's the thing, people have the right to succeed and fail, to thrive and to flail. But if you're in HFC, we would like people to not flail on our vicinity. We don't like flailing. And yet, this is a part of life. And so part of it is you're going to learn to be uncomfortable. You're going to learn to say, I don't know. You're going to ask people expansive questions like, what do you think you should do? If the only thing you change from listening to this beautiful podcast is instead of auto advice giving, you simply ask people what they thought they should do, and then what? And then what? Is there more you want to say about that? It will literally change your life. So we're not talking about you don't have to become a different person. All of your amazing qualities from being in HFC when you're in recovery, they're just amplified because now the dysfunctional ones are way

less. So you get to be more present. There gets to be more joy. You're accepting people for where they are. People are not projects in your life. We have to get used to the fact that we might disappoint people. You know, Cheryl Richardson has a book called, Let Me Disappoint You. So let's just get used to it. Let me disappoint you. Because that's part of life too. And when you get to that side, what ends up happening is the relationships you have and the relationship with yourself is so much healthier, happier, more joyful. So I don't just say let them because for me that it doesn't work. I'm a psychotherapist. It's too simplistic for me. What I loved about Mel Robb, this idea, right, is what does it do to your central nervous system? See, I say

put it down. I say when you realize what you're carrying is not yours, put it down. And this sort of there's trauma work that we do around this too where you can take it and put it up in a closet somewhere. Like there's all different visualizations that we can do to help. But I like the idea of putting it down, not because I'm going to let someone quote unquote ruin their life. Because what's ironic about the let them theory is that it's an illusion that you're letting or not letting anyway. Like literally, these are grown people, right? I'm letting, what am I, the Wizard of Oz? Like, I'm not letting them do it. So I like the idea of just putting it down. The relief you'll feel, though, which is the relief I felt when my therapist basically said,

she was like, Terry, I'm not saying you shouldn't save Jenna. I'm saying you can't. It's literally an impossibility for you to do it because it's not your life and because you can drag her out of there, but if she's not ready to go, she'll go back. And I think that that's what we have to think about when we are shifting the way we relate in our lives, that you become more loving, not less loving, when you are in recovery from being a high functioning codependent. Well, and as you were talking, it kind of struck me, not only can't we, but we probably shouldn't too,

because at least for my own life, and I can think of so many people who would agree, the best things, my purpose is all come through flailing and failing and pain. And that's where I've always learned best. That's where my most discovery or awareness has come from. And we wouldn't choose to take that from someone. Right. But that's ultimately what we're doing because we can't sit in the discomfort. Correct. How are we preparing children in this world when we're solving their problems? more afraid to let them feel any discomfort when we want to stomp down and tell this one's parent

or go to the principal. Like, how about let Bobby figure it out? Right. Help him. Right. Help him. Let brainstorm with Bobby. But have faith because what is the message we want to give to Bobby and to all the people that we love is you got this. And I got you. Terry Cole, I could talk to you all day long, but we are out of time. I'm going to remind our listeners to go to Terry Cole.com to find and follow and learn more about all of your work. And I know you have a gift for us. So let me just ask about that real quick and then I'll close us out. Sure. All right. So I have a gift. It's an HFC toolkit because I know we talked about a lot of stuff and this will help like make it smaller. Go to Terry Cole.com forward slash HFC for high functioning

go to Benazzy. And it's a simplify and do less. It's a video and a PDF because we have a tendency to do so much. There's a self-love meditation there that I voiced for you. There's a power of no meditation as well. And there's more information on that page for anything else that you would want to do. Incredible. And thank you. Reminder, the book is called Too Much. Terry, thank you so much for this enlivening conversation, Nicole. My pleasure. All right, friend, it turns out this episode was for me. And maybe it was for you too, because high functioning codependency doesn't care how successful you are, how many people rely on you, or how well you're holding it all together. In fact, it thrives in those spaces. It uses your capability and capacity and slaps a gold

star on it so you don't notice what it's costing you. It convinces you that being endlessly helpful is the same as being whole. So if you recognize yourself in any of what we talked about today, if the resentment is creeping in, if you're exhausted and the weight of carrying it all feels too damn heavy. If you're tired of being the emotional first responder in every relationship, I hope this is your invitation to pause, to question, to reclaim your energy, your boundaries, and your worth outside of what you do and who you are for everyone else. Because you deserve more than being needed. You deserve to be known, seen, supported, and loved for who you are, not just what you give.

You are inherently valuable and worthy, and knowing that will always be woman's work.