This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - How To Declutter Your Life with Lisa Woodruff | 285

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

In this episode, we delve into the transformative power of organization to alleviate overwhelm and reclaim mental clarity. Studies reveal that while 87% of Americans believe organization is a learnable skill, less than 18% feel organized in their daily lives. Clutter not only affects our physical spaces but also impacts our mental well-being, leading to increased stress and decreased productivity. Our guest, Lisa Woodruff, is the founder and CEO of Organize 365, a platform dedicated to teaching individuals the skill of organizing to unlock their time and potential. She is the author of several books, including How ADHD Affects Home Organization and The Paper Solution, which provide practical strategies for managing household organization and paper clutter. Lisa's ongoing research aims to make the invisible work at home visible, helping individuals externalize routine tasks that consume mental energy, thereby freeing up cognitive resources for more meaningful activities. By creating environments that support and inspire you, you can focus on what brings you joy and eliminate distractions that hold you back. As always, we're redefining what it means to do woman's work in today's world—on your terms, in your way—free from clutter and overwhelm. Because when you clear the clutter, you make space for your greatness. Connect with Lisa Woodruff:  Website: http://organize365.com/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisawoodruff/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Organize365/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/organize365/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/organize365 Related Podcast Episodes: The 15-Minute Method To Getting It Done with Sam Bennett | 233 How To Become Hyperefficient with Mithu Storoni | 268 119 / Time Management with Kelly Nolan Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

I am Nicole Kahlil and you're tuning into the This Is Woman's Work podcast where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. With you as the decider, whatever feels true and real and right for you, whatever lights you up from the inside, that's what doing woman's work means for you. And I gotta tell you, while I don't run into many women

who tell me that cleaning or managing all of the household tasks is what lights them up, I do meet plenty of women who feel that having a clutter free and organized home and workspace does. I mean, I hate cleaning the kitchen, but having a messy or a dirty kitchen almost instantly puts me in a bad mood. I feel like I can't function when spaces and places

are filled with clutter, and I do actually really love to organize. It's something that Jay finds more than a little annoying about me. I must put things in their place immediately, and everything has its place. If I get a new shirt, the closet gets reorganized. If I get something new for my office,

my entire desk must immediately be restructured. I love organization supplies and gadgets, and I really do believe that I do feel the sun from the inside out when I open a pantry door and see organized shelves. supplies and gadgets and I really do believe that I do feel the sun from the inside out when I open a pantry door and see organized shelves. Clutter causes me stress, creates overwhelm and turns me into Little Miss Cranky Pants, which let me tell you is not a good look on me. Nobody, including myself, likes me all that much when that happens.

So today we're diving into the world of organizing and freeing ourselves from clutter for three key reasons. Reason number one, because 87% of Americans, including our expert guest, believes that organization is a learnable and teachable skill. Reason number two, less than 18% of those same Americans feel that they are, in fact, organized. So clearly there's a gap. And reason number three, because I don't think that it's just me who turns into a cranky and

resentful version of themselves when they're surrounded by clutter. So to help us tackle this topic, I've invited Lisa Woodruff to the show as she teaches the young and the experienced the skill of organizing and unlocking their time for what they are actually uniquely created to do through organized 365 courses. Lisa is the author of four books including How ADHD Affects Home Organization and the Paper Solution. And her ongoing research is making the invisible work we all do at home visible to everyone. And she also helps us to externalize the routine tasks that take up the executive functioning capacity of our brains, which frees

us up to think and create once again. So Lisa, I have so many questions and let me first thank you for being here. And then let me start with asking about some of these routine tasks. What are some of these things we're all doing that are hijacking our brain capacity? And then of course the follow-up question is, how do we take any sort of control over them? Nicole, thank you so much for letting me come on your podcast. I'm listening to your introduction. I'm like, ooh, I want to hear this podcast. And then I'm like, oh yeah, I'm the one that has to provide the information. I want to start with that because I feel like as women, I mean, scientifically, every study

done women do more work than men at home, if you're looking at married couples. So we know that women are doing more work when it is a male-female relationship for sure. And what are the tasks that we're doing? That is something that, you know, I'm 52 years old. I have been observing my extended family, the houses that I babysat in, my friends who also had kids, like, who's doing the work?

What is the work? That is the number one question. What is the work that we're doing at home? All of those household studies that show that women are doing more work than men, all measure the work that's being done differently. There is no definition of housework. Did you know that?

There's no operational definition of housework. So I've done a recent study that has not been published yet, but there was agreement for men and women as to what housework was. It's three things, anything related to cleaning, anything related to laundry, and anything related to meal prep. There are a lot of other household activities we do, but when we asked a thousand people that match the US Census, that's when we came back, those three things. And I think that's the number one problem, is that there are so many things that could

be considered work at home, are considered work at home, are different for different phases of life, different ethnicities, different family types. The list of what is work is never ending. So I can dive into any topic that you want, but first of all, there's just a lot of work. Agreed, and even just the cleaning, laundry, meal prep, I'm like, yeah, I can think of one million things I do above and beyond that.

And they're all taking up so much of our brain capacity and brain function. So I guess it triggers the question of, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, should there be some defined, and I'm putting an air quotes, job description, and should there be some mechanism of compensation? I've talked to a handful of friends and family members

that work from inside the home. I refuse to call them stay at home parents because they are working. Is there some sort of way to have some of the household income set aside for them so there is a measurement of the value of their work and they have money that's their own and all that. Okay, so I'm going down a rabbit hole. Lisa, your thoughts on anything I just said. Yeah, so I see exactly where you're going with this. 100%, I absolutely believe

that we need operational definitions for everything we do inside of the home. So I'm in my second year of a PhD study. Hopefully I'll graduate by December, 2025. Again, I said I'm 52. So I started getting a PhD at the age of 50 because as a, and I called myself a stay-at-home mom, as a stay-at-home mom, as a in-home professional organizer, as a teacher, I have created structures for

so many people. The problem is it's done in a small group or one at a time. I think this is absolutely ridiculous. We all live in households our entire life. There's no operational structure. There's no roles. There's no job description. There's no even definition of housework. Like that's insanity. How can you even do studies when you don't have operational definitions?

So that's what I am taking on as my job is to kind of give you all of these different task descriptions and then you could say what you wanna do and then create operational systems that you can or don't have to put into the home. As far as how we value that and politically compensate for that, I try to stay out of politics because you'll alienate 50% of people, so I'm politically neutral. I will say that the secondary thing that I'm working on personally is starting a 501c3. The courses that we've created

in the operational structures that a lot of people are putting into their households with success are not accessible for especially single women with children, which is 40% of my daughter had a baby in 2021, 40% of people who had babies in 2021 were single women. So they aren't even in this literature where we're talking about housework.

Of course, all of those women are doing the housework. There is no other person in the story. So how do we get these operational systems once I can define them into like habitat for humanity and people who move from homelessness into housing? Just the housing isn't only the answer. There also has to be then the invisible work and the operational structure there.

Otherwise you'll bounce right back into homelessness. That's where I'm trying to solve the problem of taking the intellectual property I have, putting it in a 501c3 and then being able to use different existing organizations to create similar to our retail programs. I'm a far away off from doing that, but I'm gonna work till I'm 80, so I'll just keep plugging along. Well, and let me give you a virtual standing ovation

for doing the work, because it is so imperative and necessary and impactful. I know in doing some prep for our conversation today that you have what you call a basic household operating system that you say saves most people about five hours a week. And I think we could all come up with a bazillion things we would love to do with an extra five hours every week. So I would love to learn more about this operating system and what it looks like and what it means.

Yes, I call it the Sunday Basket. I created it in 2002 when I had a two-year-old and a six-month-old, and I could not get anything done on my to-do list, literally nothing. I'd end up at the end of the day and I was more behind. My bills were being paid late because I couldn't find the time to pay the bills. Now remember, we were much more analog in 2002

than we are in 2024, but still I was able to organize the 40 different kinds of tasks I was doing into 40 different slash pockets back in 2002. Now I have standardized that and there are four kinds of projects that we do at home. They're either household-related projects, people-related projects, financial-related projects, or personal projects. Those are all identified in this box, and the ongoingness of all that paperwork is in there. And then there's also one set of rainbow slash pockets, which are red, orange, yellow, green, blue. And these are weekly tasks that have to be done every week, like paying the bills, running errands,

planning your food, things that you're waiting for. And this box sits on your kitchen counter and it just kind of creates that structure and that system and that safe place to put all of your ideas, whether they're going to get done this week or in the future, and delays all of your decision making until Sunday. And then you do as much as you can

and you plan out what you can for the week and you delay any decisions that can until the next week. In that process, after you do that for four to six weeks, your brain starts to realize it can have any thought it wants and you'll write it down on an index card and you'll throw it in this magical box. And then it can keep thinking about what you were already planning on doing that day. So it's more five hours of mental capacity, not actually five hours to go like lay on the couch and eat bonbons. If anybody ever did that, I don't think anybody ever did, but wouldn't it be great if we did?

Do you know what a bonbon is, by the way? Yes, I do. Have you had one before? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, they're great. They're amazing. We should all have bonbons every week.

Agreed. So what I love about this is the freeing up of the mental capacity and the giving us some place to put things, even if it's mental things. Because I think a lot of times what creates a lot of inefficiency and ineffectiveness in our day to day is something will come up like, oh crap, I got to do this. And we're so afraid of forgetting it or that we end up doing it at a time or in a way that isn't at all effective or efficient. Thousand percent.

Yes. Okay. I really like this idea and this is something people can find on your website and it'll kind of walk them through how to do it. Yeah, the Sunday basket. I mean, you could Google it in podcast, but it's, when you Google it, you'll be like, oh, this is a thing. Yes, exactly.

We interrupt our own goals all the time because we don't want to forget something or we don't want to let somebody down when actually what we were working on at that time, every day you have a plan. But all day long, you have to make decisions or you get interrupted by somebody else's plan. And that's why your plan never gets done. So the Sunday basket allows you to take those ideas or those interruptions and put them safely until Sunday, if they can wait till Sunday, so you actually get your own to-do list done. Okay. You said something earlier that triggered a thought. I think we believe that the more technology

and things we have that we can leverage, the more time we'll have, and yet somehow, you mentioned 2002, and it's like, okay, yeah, there wasn't as much available to us, not as many apps. There wasn't Instacart. And yet here in 2024, 25, whenever this comes out, we still have just as much, if not more to do.

Any ideas as to why that is and if there's anything we can do about it? Yeah, I just anecdotally, no research, like not in my PhD hat. I think it's just not only decision fatigue, but also where to find things. Like if you write something down on an index card and you put it in the Sunday basket, and then on Sunday you have 50 index cards to go through, it's really not that hard because you just sort them. Done, trash, I don't want to, maybe in the later put in a slash pocket.

But if you have to check like five different apps, you have to open the app. Then you have to take yourself back off of Instagram because you're supposed to be in that app, not the Instagram app, because that's where I naturally go when I get on the phone. So I find that there are two places that I actually put things digitally consistently.

One is I have like this place on my phone where I put any new shows that my husband and I might want to watch, that I'm very good at doing. And the second one is I buy almost everything from Amazon. So when I have a thought, I go to Amazon and I find it and I put in my cart. And if I don't want to check it out, I just put buy later. So then I don't have to write that anywhere else. But other than those two things, no other digital system I've been able to do consistently other than those two tasks.

So everything else goes in the Sunday basket. Agreed. I will also add, Jay and I have done this, is we put everything in our cart, but we only order once a week and we would just sort of get together and be like, do we really need this? Oh, we already have that. Or did you know we have a drawer full of those? Why do we need more? You know, like it's because we found we were

Ordering shit just on a whim or like in a moment and then we would get all the stuff that we didn't need it Okay, so then that leads me to my next question any other practical strategies for reducing physical clutter So physical clutter, I'm not as much of a decluttering expert as I am organizing and increasing productivity. I think there are like so many awesome decluttering experts out there. You can totally get rid of things.

The caution I would give you is if you get a good high from getting rid of things and that's the way in which you get order, what I see happen and what happened in my in-home professional organization clients is in order to get that organized feeling, they would over declutter things they actually wanted because they didn't know how to get an organized feeling without getting rid of things. So I tend to highlight that because sometimes if you just give a decluttering list and people are like that's right I need to get rid of everything. It's not always the solution and sometimes if you don't have an abundance of

material possessions, sometimes when you want to get organized, you actually need to add things. So like when I started on my organizing journey, I only had three outfits in my closet that fit one pair of pants, three tops and a sweater. But my closet was full because I'd gained 30 pounds, because I'd been on an antidepressant, which thank goodness I was, because I needed it. But now it was a new body size and we didn't have any money and we were in debt and all these other things. So I couldn't just organize my closet.

And also I didn't want to get rid of everything in my closet, because I didn't want to recognize that I had so little. And so what I ended up doing that year was actually retail arbitraging my closet and taking whatever was good enough to the resale shop, waiting for it to sell, using the money at the resale shop to buy new to me clothing. And so I had a nice little wardrobe by the end of 12 months where I had, you know, both

seasons about 10 outfits that I could wear in each one. And that really supported me. So I love decluttering, but I think sometimes, you know, that's the quick fix. And then you need to move on to the next thing. Which is, I think, leading perfectly into my follow-up question, and I think more your area of expertise is clearing the mental clutter.

So, let's talk about how we might do that. So, I'm gonna go back to housework, because it's just everybody has to do laundry, everybody has to do food-related things, and everybody has to do cleaning. My big thing for women is to do a lot less. I mean, so much less that your family starts saying, hey, do we still clean around here? Because we tend to want to get an A plus in our housework.

We want to have an acceptable house for people to come over and visit. By the way, no one comes to my house. So like that's a thing also. How often are they coming? You know, when I went to college, my mom had taught me to change my bedsheets every week and to iron them and I called them linens because I'm English. So when you're a freshman in college and you say, no, I'm sorry, I can't go up to the bars tonight because I have to wash my linens.

That's not popular. So last time I used that term, by the way, and also the last time I ironed them. They were from Bed Bath & Beyond. They didn't need ironing. So, you know, your, how you were raised, maybe a different level of cleanliness than you need. And also, if your family starts complaining about how often you do the dishes, I only do them three times a week, they could feel free to do them themselves. So sometimes maybe if you let it get dirty enough, they'll actually do the work. So do you want to change your bed sheets as often as you do? Do you need to vacuum as often as you do? And this is how I know I was still over cleaning when COVID started. We were having someone clean our house. I've cleaned people's houses and I've had my house cleaned.

So obviously that stopped instantaneously and I know how to clean, so I cleaned, but I didn't dust. I forgot there was dusting until week seven. And all of a sudden you could write your name in every place in my house. So if you are dusting any more often than every six weeks, you are over dusting. So I challenge you to stop doing almost every housework until it is screaming at you to do it and then reorient your entire cleaning schedule according to that.

Okay. So I'm sure some people are like me going, oh, yeah, right. And I also think there are certain things that's like, oh, that's easy to do, or we might already be doing them. Like I think there are some things that for whatever reason, maybe the way we're raised are not as important than others. Then there are some things, like I mentioned earlier, my kitchen. It's like the hub of our home. Everybody walks in and out of that room. I work from home, so that's what I see when I start my day.

It's what I see when I walk out of my office any single time. How do we let go of needing it to be a certain way or feeling like it really matters when, you're right, it doesn't. I always think, oh, if somebody came over, nobody's fucking coming over to my house without an invitation. It's not like anybody's popping by unknown.

Okay, so I got the answer for you. So here's the thing, and this is when I made the shift, because also, I mean, I used to get an A plus in my housework. I mean, I clean people's houses. I know how to do this stuff. Here's the thing. Your family does not value what you're doing as much as you value having it done for them. It's your love language.

You're doing this for them, and you want praise. Well, they're not praising you because they don't even really realize what you're doing. Secondly, when I was working from home, starting my own company, I would drive the kids to school. I would come home. I would make sure the house was totally clean and organized, and then I would get started working. And then they would come home from school and I would continue working.

And then my family would say to me, like, you're always working. And I'm like, well, yes. Okay, yes, we're always working. Housework, paid work, unworked, whatever. But what I realized was I was doing my housework when they weren't watching me, so it was invisible to them. And I was doing my work work when they were home and they thought I was overworking.

I was like, oh, I know how I can get two hours a day back. I would drop them off at school, come in, walk right through the kitchen up to my office, work until I had to pick them up from school. And then I started doing the housework while they were home after dinner on Saturday mornings in front of them, feel free to help me, but also I'll just do it in front of you.

And then I'll say, you're always working. I'm like, yes, I'm cleaning. So you can still have that cleanliness level, but don't steal it from your work time. If you're working for someone else, you're not doing that because you're working on the clock. But if you're an entrepreneur, this is more important for you

because you are prioritizing something that is not going to last for your unique gifting to the world that is what only you are uniquely created to do. That's why I want you to do less housework, not so that your house is dirty, so that you prioritize your time and your energy in your optimal parts of the day

towards your unique gifting for the world, not dusting, dishes, laundry, et cetera. What you said is brilliant. And I will echo, cause I've never thought of it this way, is doing the housework in front of your family and the people who you live with, because then it moves from invisible work

to entirely visible. And also if they want to complain about it, they can help you, as you said earlier. Exactly. And hopefully then they, or they'll be like, oh, you're working too hard. And it's like, yeah, I'm working on the housework. And then maybe I can let that go because it's not as important.

Just that small tweak makes such a big difference. I want to ask a little bit about maybe more of the simple changes we can make daily. So you've talked about the Sunday basket. I really like this shift around doing housework in visible ways. What about the day-to-day stuff that just seems to kinda always be there?

Any tweaks or things that we can do to make that better? Yes, more ways in which I made invisible work visible is I fold all of the laundry now in the kitchen. So after the kids would come home from school or now they're not in school, like when I come home from work, I'll get the laundry out of the kitchen. It's also, the laundry room,

it's also way easier to fold it in the kitchen than anywhere else once you start doing it. If you put the laundry basket on a chair and you fold it on the kitchen table or the kitchen counter, like it's right at your height, you're never bending over. It's really awesome. And you could talk to people about their day and you're literally folding all the laundry and then you're like, great, now go put this away. Um, I only do dishes three times a week right now.

Now I'm not in active parenting years, although my daughter and my three year old grandchild live with my husband and I, so there are a lot of people in the house. I do dishes on Sunday night after we have our big Sunday dinner. I do it on Wednesday before the house gets cleaned on Thursday, and I do it either Friday night or Saturday morning. Those are the three times I do dishes. There are always going to be dishes in your sink. Get used to it. I put a plastic bin in there so that you can put the utensils in there so it doesn't mess up the bottom of my sink. But basically unless I want to do it some other time, I only do it then. And the other reason I only do it then, I don't cook a lot from scratch and we don't eat a lot from home, so

that's another reason I can do that, is because otherwise I would always be doing it. I was doing dishes three times a day, like 21 times a week. That's a lot of time. But if I know that there is a time when I'm going to do the dishes and it's not overflowing to the point that we don't have enough dishes, then I can go take a bath, do a puzzle, read a book. And we need to prioritize our own individual fulfillment and education just like we would our children or elders if you're caring for them. Your physical passions, your exercise, your sleep, your hygiene as a woman, your education outside of your paid profession, these are all things

that we do in childcare and elder care, where you take care of your own self-care and you're not under the direction of parents or someone else taking care of you for elder care. It's not just a bubble bath or a massage. It's everything that you would do for anyone else. So I also do those things in front of my family. I now like will play a video game on my phone,

just like they play a video game on their phone. What are you doing? I'm like, I'm doing the matching game. Keep talking. And I just do it like, just like I would with my kids. Like if I accept it for my kids, I'm now accepting it for myself. Yeah. Great tips. I want to ask a little bit about outsourcing some of this work. I know it's

a privilege. I understand that not everybody has that option. And I also think sometimes we think we don't have the option more often than we actually don't have the option. Meaning, we look at the cost and just automatically go, no, I can't do that. Whereas, especially if you're an entrepreneur, I always think of the value of my time, if that saves me two hours here, and I even take just one of those hours and do something that could generate profit

in my business, no brainer, right? But I also think there are some smaller trade-offs that we can make where, you know, there's that thing where it's like, don't buy your coffee from Starbucks if you're saving to buy a house. And I'm like, in what world is that gonna help you buy a house?

Like, yes, 84 years from now, you'll have saved enough money to buy a house. But if you don't drink a coffee out every day, you can redirect that money to buy a house. But if you don't drink a coffee out every day, you can redirect that money to get your house cleaned once a month. And that's an easy, easy for me trade. So all of that to ask thoughts on outsourcing and are we maybe holding ourselves back a little bit from this?

Yeah, you should outsource every single thing you can afford to and even things you don't think you can afford to. You'll figure it out once you do it. If you're an entrepreneur, I say these are your first three hires. Number one, someone to clean your house. That frees up more time for you and your business. Number two, an executive assistant, five to 15 hours a week. That doubles your time in the business. And number three, someone to do your books.

And none of those are full-time hires. But those three people together will be about the salary of one person. And so that's what I always counsel people who are entrepreneurs. I mentioned before I've cleaned houses. People can go in your house and clean your house in three hours every other week.

And myself personally in my own house, that takes six hours every single week. I don't know why that is the math, but it is the actual math. For me to clean my house the way somebody else cleans my house takes six hours because I straighten up and I do laundry, I do everything that's in addition to cleaning while I clean. It takes a ridiculous amount of time. But when you go in and the house is picked up and it's cleaned for you, you also keep it picked up the entire time because you don't want to have to go all the way back down like you would if you're cleaning

your own house. So it's a huge time savings. You could do it once a month, you could do it once a quarter, but having someone come in on a regular basis and reset the cleanliness level of your house that you then maintain through tidying is huge. Another easy way to outsource is to change how you do food preparation.

If you're still going into grocery stores and picking everything out yourself because you pick out a better tomato than everybody else and that's your passion project, great. But if it's not, we need to really move quickly to either picking up or having your food delivered. So I have mine delivered through Walmart. My husband thinks that's atrocious. He goes to all the bougie stores. He buys our meat. Whatever. I'm like, Triscuits are Triscuits are Triscuits, dude. Like my caramel coffee is the same at Kroger as it is at Walmart. So it's an extra $10 to have them delivered to my door. And so I used to go and wait in

the parking lot and I was like, Oh my gosh, it's really taking me 15 minutes for 10 bucks. I now just have it delivered to my door right when I'm ready to do my food prep. Very inexpensive way to save yourself at least an hour, hour to a week. And also you spend less because you're not impulse buying when you're in the store. Another great way to outsource or save money on groceries, which are out of control, is to go to buying every other week instead of every week. Just discipline yourself to plan for two weeks. Maybe you have to make a quick pickup stop in between, but you could probably make it two weeks. And then my favorite thing which costs no money, and I did when I was early in my entrepreneur days, could probably make it two weeks. And then my favorite thing, which costs no money,

and I did when I was early in my entrepreneur days, is I swapped with a friend. I love to do laundry. She loves to cook. I do not. So I would give her the money. She would grocery shop, and she would make two or three meals and bring them over to me.

And I would do all of her bazillion children's laundry, and they were in every sport. I didn't care. I ran the laundry all day long while I was doing my job, and she would deliver the food. So I was still doing the same amount of work, but I was doing work that I liked better. And it freed up my mental capacity because I didn't have to think about what we were eating laundry is much easier for me mentally to do. So there's just some easy ways to outsource. When you really start thinking this way, you can really make a big long list. Totally. And I like the idea of doing a trade with a friend.

We kind of structure that inside of our household. Jay really likes to cook. I don't know if he loves grocery shopping, but it's sort of associated with the cooking. I don't mind paying the bills. I actually like that a lot, and the organization and all of that. So we kind of play to what we can tolerate or what we like.

And there are only a few things that end up in the space, like neither of us likes cleaning bathrooms. And so we outsource that. Exactly. Okay, last question. Your thoughts on chores for children, whether you're in a marriage or a single parent, how do we teach and get support?

And is that even a good way to look at it? I know probably lots of differing opinions on that. I don't give any parenting advice at all, but I do, I could tell you what I have done. So two things, number one, our kids' program, we call a child's bedroom their mini apartment. And that's like their jurisdiction because everything's inside of that one space and it really does function. Everything except for food is in there for them. And that is

a space that I think as an early childhood educator is appropriate for a child to organize and maintain. They need to be taught how to organize that. We have a kids program that teaches those skills if they are not inherently organized or you aren't a good teacher of skills, but you zone the room and then they learn how to organize it and then they need to redo it every once in a while. I also like it as a mini apartment because it connotates ownership.

However, it's a renting ownership so they can petition the landlord for new paint, things like that. So I like that idea. Also, my kids had individualized education plans and they went to a learning disability school at some point in their schooling. Schooling is the work of children

and it was really difficult for my children. They did not have any capacity whatsoever to help me maintain my household, let alone even their bedrooms during the school year. And so I would structure the summers, I would teach them a new cleaning or organization task each summer and then have them maintain that during the school year. And I looked at that as where I taught life skills

that they would need to be independent adults. And today they are independent adults, but they have never helped me maintain my household, that's mine to maintain. So I kind of, you know, if you have children that have that capacity, awesome. I think a lot more kids don't have the capacity to maintain the actual whole home, but they can be taught the capacity to maintain their bedroom space, which then will extrapolate out into their own household space when they get older. Yeah, I really like the knowing

your kids capacity and knowing that that capacity may ebb and flow, depending on what's going on. I agree, school is the job. It's the work of children. And that needs to be factored in. And I love the apartment and the fact that it is rented space. And also just this concept of life skills.

Lisa, thank you so much. This conversation has been wildly fascinating. I just think that there's so much opportunity for us to declutter our spaces, but mostly declutter our minds. I know people are going to want to learn more. Organized365.com is the website. You can follow Organized 365 on all of the social medias whether it's your Sunday basket or Teaching your kids how to zone their rooms. There are so many resources for you available there lisa. Thank you. Thank you All right friend. I hope you know that I am not saying that organizing your home is woman's work

And I hope you know that I am not saying that organizing your home is woman's work, but I am saying that freeing up your mental energy for the things that really matter is. It's about making space for what lights you up, what brings you joy, and eliminating the distractions that hold you back. It's about creating environments that work for you so you can focus on the work that truly matters to you. As always, we're redefining what it means to be doing woman's work in the world today on your terms in your way,

minus the clutter and the overwhelm. Because when you clear the clutter, you make space for your greatness. And that is woman's work.