This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Joan Lunden on Reinvention, Leadership & Life Beyond the Script | 392

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

What happens when a woman refuses to follow the script she was handed? In this episode of This Is Woman’s Work, Nicole Kalil sits down with award-winning journalist, bestselling author, and former Good Morning America co-host Joan Lunden to talk about reinvention, leadership, pay equity, aging, caregiving, and choosing yourself — again and again. Joan was offered the co-host role at Good Morning America the same day she found out she was pregnant. In the 1970s. When working mothers were barely visible on television, and “breastfeeding” wasn’t even a word you could say on air. She brought her baby to work anyway. Throughout her career, she negotiated creative compensation before pay equity was a mainstream conversation, pushed back on being labeled “second banana,” navigated public scrutiny, and later reinvented herself again — this time as a fierce advocate for women’s health, breast cancer awareness, dense breast legislation, and caregiver rights. In this conversation, she shares: How to reinvent yourself at every stage of life What it takes to negotiate power in male-dominated spaces The pressure of being the “perfect working mom” How she handled media criticism and public expectations Why sisterhood and strong women behind the scenes mattered most Joan’s story is proof that reinvention isn’t a phase — it’s a practice. And ambition doesn’t expire just because culture says it should. Choosing yourself isn’t one bold move. It’s a lifetime of them. Thank you to our sponsors! Shopify has everything all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial today at shopify.com/tiww  Connect with Joan: Website: https://joanlunden.com/ Book: https://www.amazon.com/JOAN-Beyond-Script-Joan-Lunden/dp/1637634927/  IG: https://www.instagram.com/therealjoanlunden/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/JoanLunden Related Podcast Episodes: Reinventing Your Career (Again and Again) with Ilana Golan | 374 Your Value Doesn’t Expire: Career Reinvention Over 40 with Loren Greiff | 344 Big Trust Energy: How to Build Self-Trust When Self-Doubt Won’t Shut Up with Dr. Shadé Zahrai | 380 Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review:Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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If you love the show, the best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. defining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today, with you as the decider. And today we're talking about what happens when you choose a life that doesn't follow the script that you are handed. You know, the script that says, this is your lane. You should stay in it. Or congratulations, you've arrived. Now, don't get greedy and ask for more. Or your best

years are behind you. You better behave accordingly. Hard pass to all of that. No, this episode is about opting out of the pressure to follow that script. It's about trusting yourself enough to make choices that aren't always logical, likable, or comfortable, but are right for you. And it's about remembering that no one gets to decide when your growth ends, when your ambition expires, or when your story is complete. Not an industry, not a culture obsessed with youth, not even the version of you that once believed that your script was fixed and final.

because reinvention isn't a phase. It's a practice, and it's available to all of us at every age and every season. So today's conversation is about choosing yourself again and again, even when staying put would be easier. And there's no better teacher than somebody who's done it publicly and repeatedly. We are joined by the one and only Joan London, award-winning journalist, bestselling author, longtime Good Morning America co-host, and one of the most trusted voices in American homes for the last 50 years. Joan has built, left, rebuilt, and redefined success more times than most people are probably brave enough to even try once. From breaking barriers and broadcast journalism to redefining motherhood on her own terms to becoming a fierce advocate for women's health, caregiving, and aging,

she is living proof that life beyond the script isn't just possible. It's powerful. Her new memoir, Joan, Life Beyond the Scripts, the script as reflection on reinvention, resilience, and the truth that no one else gets to decide when your most meaningful work begins. Joan, it is an absolute honor to have you on the show, and I want to start with a moment in your life where the script was pretty clear and you chose something different. You found out that you were pregnant on the same day that you were offered the Good Morning America role at a time when working moms weren't very visible on television.

And so when there was no good roadmap, how did you figure out what to do and what worked for you? It was the late 1970s. I was a reporter at eyewitness news in New York City. And, you know, I'd been married a couple of years. And I'd been kind of working, you know, in Good Morning America as a fill-in host and as a reporter. And I got this call. I was in my little news cubby. Am I typewriter? That's a giveaway to hold you are. Thank you for the visual. And I got my phone rang and it was my agent.

He said, I just got a call from ABC. They're offering you the job as co-hosts to Good Morning America. And it was like, oh my God, but I can't talk to you now. I got to finish my script. I'm on in like 15 minutes. But before the show started, the phone rang again and it was my gynecologist. Congratulations. You are pregnant with your first child.

And, you know, I guess back then I was, I was, expected to think, oh, man, bad timing. And it never even occurred to me to think that. I just figured I'd have to figure out how I was going to do it. And that's what I did. I delivered on the 4th of July and went back to work on August 28th. So my baby was seven weeks old. And I remember calling my agent saying, I'm going to be breastfeeding and I want to bring my baby with me to work. And he was like silent on the other end of the phone. I mean, it was like saying, can I bring my dog to work? It was just so, it was so bizarre. And I mean, by the way, in 1979, you couldn't say the word breastfeeding on television. That was one of those words you couldn't say. And, you know, I said,

I need you to go in and ask the executives. Well, ABC wanted my tush in that seat so badly because, you know, David Hartman and the previous co-host had not really gotten a lot. long well, kind of been icy in that studio. And a morning audience feels that. You know, you don't, you want congeniality at 7 a.m. when they're eating their breakfast. So they really wanted me back and they said yes. I think they just said yes because they just felt they had no other choice. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when my agent called and said, can she bring her baby? Because she's breastfeeding. And it was going to be supposedly the best kept secret. So, the first day, I came in with my baby, and after the show, they set up all these chairs in the studio,

and they invited all the press, you know, all the women's magazines and the Washington Post and the New York Times and time and newsweek. And David Hartman brought me in and introduced me and said, this is our new co-host, Joan London. And I said, hello, and I opened it up to questions. And they had taken me aside right before I walked out, whatever you do, don't say anything. about having a baby upstairs. I said, I won't, I won't. First question, Time Magazine. We hear you have a baby here with you. How did you get ABC to allow you to do that? And I like, look at all these executives standing at the back of the room and there's like no way you can't answer the question. And I said, well, I was able to get ABC to give me permission to bring my child to work with me.

Second question, Newsweek magazine. This show travels the world. What are you going to do? And I had to say, ABC gave me permission to take my baby with me. And I took her with me a year later to the wedding of Prince Charles to Lady Diana. She was just a year old. And you know what? It never really interfered. To be really honest, Nicole. I mean, I would finish the show.

I'd go to my office. I had another crib in the office. I used to joke that this baby has more beds than Conrad Hilton. I mean, so I'd take her to the office. And when I'd have to get on the phone for an interview with like ladies' home journal, we would either like start up the little swing, which back in those days, you'd have to like wind it up so it would like swing for like 15 minutes, or my assistant would take the baby, take Jamie out and like walk her around so I could do an interview. And, you know, I wasn't sure

whether my colleagues would really actually be so willing to accept this, but they did. And And I think the reason why Nicole is that I never really let it interfere. I mean, there was one morning, I guess I can tell this story here, when I was interviewing, I don't know, as some senator about, oh, President Reagan's trickle-down economic theory, and all of a sudden I experienced inflation in trickle-down. Obviously, Jamie was ready to be fed. And thankfully, I was wearing like a, like a, like a, print silk blouse so you didn't see anything. And my hairdresser, like, ran in the studio during

the commercial with the hairdryer and, like, like, blue dried me off. And like the show went on. Like, you just, that's what you have to do. And I've been to roll with the punches. I never, I always showed up. I always was ready. And, you know, I think that that's the lesson I try to give young women is that when you get this wonderful baby news that it's not always so wonderful for your boss, who now has to kind of figure out what they're going to do, like, go in and say, I have wonderful news, but I understand it's going to affect the office as well. Let's figure out how we're going to do this together. And not just, like, lay it on them, you know, but understand you need to figure it out together. I think that's kind of a mistake that a lot of women make.

In there, you talk about what so many women do, which is just figure it out, right? Like we kind of have to a lot of the times. And yet you really did blaze a trail for so many of us in that. And using that as an example, though I know there are many, many examples, when you look back with the benefit of hindsight, what do you feel is harder to navigate, the logistics or the expectations? I think to be perfectly, the logistics I figured out. I love it that you describe your show as, I think a get shit done warriors show. I love that. I mean, like, I have my master calendar that I just, you know, whatever, whatever was on my plate, I just got it all done because that's what we women do. And men don't have to do that. I mean, I think we should all recognize that. We have a different,

we have to deal with everything. Men don't get up in the morning and think I have to go to the job today, but also did I get the ice skates and did I get the hockey stick and did I do this? And do I need to go to the grocery store before I come home to night's cook dinner? I mean, like, we have to have our brains thinking of so many things at once. But I think probably the thing that I felt the most pressure about is that over time, I felt like I was kind of put on this pedestal of like the perfect working mother. And that carried a pressure with it. which just, I don't know, that wasn't always comfortable, but I just had to kind of live that

role. I mean, to be very honest, I mean, when it was the most uncomfortable, was when I realized my marriage had to come to an end, and I knew it had to. And a lot of America didn't want to accept that because I was like the perfect working mom, the perfect American working mom, and that wasn't supposed to happen to me. And so, you know, sometimes it's just so hard when you feel like you've let people down because you aren't living up to that role that they expect of you. I guess I didn't really think about, you know, we have so many expectations, societal, the ones we place on ourselves, family, what have you. But that's a really good point.

When you are a trailblazer, where you are an example, one of the expectations is that you have it all figured out or you're doing it perfectly. And that's nobody's reality. Oh, I'll give you another one. I'll give you another one. How about you're on TV, so you should always look thin? Yeah, right. I forget the fact that you're having babies.

Right. I remember coming back after my third baby and I felt a lot of pressure to come back just because the ratings was start. It was a ratings period that was starting. So I came back and I just had a cesarean. And I came back and I remember the executive vice president like was following me as I was going back after the show and he said, have you got plans to start your workout? Get back in shape, Joan. And I wanted to turn around and say, okay, so like maybe I should just go home and wait another month or two until I've lost all the weight and then come back. But I'm here.

And by the way, I didn't really go back and lose all the weight within that one or two months because, you know, I was on this, like, ridiculous 3.30 a.m. every day for 20 years. And that's just such a hard schedule when you're, I mean, I had little kids and then I had teenagers like try to go to bed before. 10 o'clock at night. Like I was, I was dealing with four, five hours, maybe sometimes six hours. And like after 20 years, you know, I, you know, people expected me, this is the other expectation, of course. Everyone expected me to like pop up on some other big national show immediately. And like, I was exhausted. And I, I don't know. I mean, I stepped back and I had several other opportunities and I didn't really step up to the plate and take them. And, you know, to be very honest, like, I've been writing this book for about six years and I've stopped a couple times.

I started it and I stopped because I got breast cancer and then I wrote a book about breast cancer. And then I was involved with so many women's health campaigns and I had this urge to write a book about women's health. So I wrote my last book. Why did I come into this room, a candid conversation about aging. And then I sat back down to write this book. And I'm glad that it took me so long, because I think that at this point in my life, I could kind of look at the whole arc of my life and career, and I could give credence and the right respect to the 25 years after GMA to understand that I didn't have to top GMA with another TV program, that the advocacy work that I've done and the books that I've written and the campaigns that I've been on and the legislation that I've worked on in Congress and testifying before the FDA on all the different things for women's health, that to me is as self-fulfilling as those 20 years as a broadcaster, even though people, everywhere I go, people say, oh, are you enjoying retirement? Because they don't see me on TV every day.

And my husband always says, please just tell them, yes. Do not try to stop and tell them all the projects you're doing now. But it took until now, I think, for me to give myself permission to be okay with the fact that all the things I've done since GMA were different. They weren't another big show. And by the way, I've done 10 shows since GMA. I may ironically, 10 TV shows. But none of them were on every day so that people see you every day, so people don't know that. So they all think that you're, I don't know, I'm doing jigsaw puzzles or something.

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Every Sunday, I bring the best tech journalists together to talk about the week's tech news. This week, the showdown between Anthropic and the Department of Desperman. defense, Apple's big week ahead, Samsung's new phone and a whole lot more. Join me this week and every week for Twit. You'll find it at our website, twit.tv, or wherever you get your podcasts. The book is incredible and it's filled with insights and lessons and takeaways and one of the things I love, especially are your chapter titles. There is one earlier chapter about, I think your teen years, that's titled, Go Ahead, Underest, me, that'll be fun. And that seems to be a theme throughout your life, whether it comes to trusting

your gut, standing up for yourself, pushing back. Talk to us about what it means and the lived experience of thinking that way. Like, sure, underestimate me. That'll be fun for you. Certainly when I was younger. I mean, I graduated from high school when I was 16. I was, I've just always been that push ahead kind of person in, I mean, really from the get-go, from grammar school. And I was always like in the class ahead. And then I got into high school and I wanted to graduate early. I skipped my junior year. The principal did everything he could to stand in my way. And I never could understand that. Like, why wouldn't he applaud me? And maybe if I was a guy, maybe an athlete, a football player, they would have like encouraged me.

But I was like a girl going against, I guess, the norm. And I had taken all these correspondence courses from UC Berkeley. So I was getting my credits in a different way than going into the regular classroom. I added them up and I was ready to graduate. And, you know, and I just, so I was kind of always like pushing forward and pushing forward. And I don't know how to tell you what it was in me that did that. But my mom, of course, was like she, I wanted to go to college. I think I applied to what UCLA and Stanford and Berkeley.

And my mom said, you're 16. And it's 1967. I think that was what they called the Year of Love or something hippie. She said, you're not going to a college campus. So she found out about this thing called World Campus Afloat. Today it's called Semester at Sea and sent me on a ship around the world. of her friends said, are you crazy? You sent your 16-year-old around the world. But quite honestly, there was a lot more oversight on this ship. And it also, like my mom always used the phrase,

I want to help broaden your horizons. And she did. Like I saw the world. I saw how people lived in other countries. And it just changed my view of the world. And I think it really probably kind of maybe led me to that path of becoming a news journalist. Yeah. And in one part of your book, you talk about how you always wore an earpiece on Good Morning America, but your producer never had to feed you a question. And you talked about being fascinated. They just never, never, never, never did. People think that they're feeding you questions. Uh-uh. Well, and you said, you know, you have a commitment to be fascinated. And that really resonated with me. curiosity, fascination, I'm guessing that stemmed from experiencing all these different perspectives and

cultures and things like that. But I guess my question is, how does being fascinated or curious play a part in your reinventions? Oh, well, when you're trying to decide what am I going to do next, you have to decide, like, what out there could I really get excited about? And to me, I mean, look, I'm a doctor's kid who always thought I was going to be a doctor. Right before I went away to college, I worked in a hospital, found it very quickly. That isn't happening. I'm not as stitches and scalples and blood, girl. It's not happening.

And so, but I always had this little kind of nagging thing at the back of my mind that I, my dad was killed in our family private plane when I was 13, and I always had this feeling I didn't live up to that legacy that I was supposed to live up to. And so I think I've always been pursuing since I left GMA a way to kind of live up to that legacy. And you'll see every show I did was about health. Every book I wrote was about health. And, you know, when I was diagnosed with cancer, I mean, within 24 hours, I was like, wow, I just got handed a gift. I can go out and learn everything possible about breast cancer. and I have a platform and I can help other women who are facing this.

So, I mean, there, that fascination of being able to do that has to exist in order to give you the impetus and the and the umph and the drive to go out and do it. And I think I've just kind of always had that burning inside of me. Yeah. I want to talk quite a bit about your advocacy work. But before I do, I think one of the hardest parts for many, women choosing their own path is dealing with everybody else's opinions, from public scrutiny to outright lies, commentary on every aspect of your life, including your looks and your choices,

unsolicited advice, casual cruelty, I think you've experienced it all. Oh, yeah. My question is how? Like, how do you maneuver through all of the noise and stay focused on what really matters? Look, I mean, people could say they don't read any of it and they'd be lying. I mean, and you could say, you know, you're thick skin and it doesn't hurt, but it does. You know, unfortunately, I had libel lawyers on speed dial and I fought the worst of the worst stuff that was said. Some of it's not worth spending money on. I spent a ton of money on protecting myself with libel lawyers and believe it or not, with lawyers protecting me from, stalkers and guys in prison who've obsessed over you.

I mean, people don't realize that kind of like dark side of celebrity, but it does exist. And, you know, I touched on it a little bit in the book because I thought you just can't write about all the great stuff because actually people like see all the great stuff, but, you know, you want to tell the whole story. And there are times, though, I will say, if I'm like being truly honest, sometimes, when somebody would write about something, you know, that I had gained weight or something, it is sometimes a little driving impetus to say, all right, Joan, like, come on, like, get yourself in gear, like, do something about this. So there are times where maybe it was a catalyst to get my

button gear and do something about it. But it is, it's a lot of noise. And I've got to tell you something. I was really in the public eye in a big way when the world was very different than it is today. I can't even imagine, you know, I was at a book party last night for Susan Lucci's new book. She came out with her memoir. It's coming out actually next Tuesday. And I was standing talking with Gail King, and we were like commiserating over, you know, the morning hours and what it's like and the expectations of us and, you know, and just the noise. And I said, and I said, I got to tell you, we didn't have laptops. Charlie Gibson and I never had laptops in front of us.

We couldn't fact check someone who was coming on in five minutes. We couldn't Google someone. They couldn't send us an email overnight to tell us about something. They had to send us by messenger packets of research that we would read. And I said, you guys, people are responding to you in real time. And I said, I just can't even imagine what that's like. I said, I'm so glad that I was in your position when I was in that position. And she was like, really?

I said, yeah, really. I really think that you have a lot more to contend with in today's world, not to mention. Like, we did everything in our power, never to give our opinion. We had two people with absolutely opposing views. and we were interviewing them or moderating a debate, our goal at the end of that was that you at home would not know what our opinion was because we weren't there to give our opinion. And a lot of people miss that, by the way.

I hear it day in and day out on my social media that they miss those days. I said, and now you're expected to give your opinion. And I said, that's hard because then you're going to have half the audience upset with you. And you just get all that noise, all that feedback all the time. I said, truly, I can't even imagine what it must be like. Yeah, I do miss the idea of journalism being a neutral. Let me provide you information. I do crave that a little bit more in today's day and age and don't even get me started on the cesspool that is social media. That adds a whole new element to everything. I want to talk about your advocacy work. But one of the things that are you, you know,

it jumped out at me in your book is you kind of tackled pay equity before it was a big thing. You got creative in negotiating your contract by proposing primetime specials. Yeah. You were told, you know, like not to be one of those women with egos. You had to put out being called a co-host. Oh, yeah. Talk to us about how you find the chutzpah or whatever to stand up for yourself, knowing that you're going to be facing other people's opinions and obstacles and all of that.

When I first went to Good Morning America, I had to be interviewed by David Hartman's agent in order to get the job. I mean, I don't know people at home understand just how ludicrous that is, but it's pretty bizarre. And the first question he asked me was, would you be willing to change your hair color? I don't know what I expected is the first question, but it certainly wasn't that. And I was like, why, can I just ask why you would ask me that question? He said, well, we just don't want you to look too young because that might make David look too old. I was like, okay, well, if the producers thought that my hair color somehow didn't play well on the air, I guess I would entertain a discussion with them. And, you know, the second question is, you know, I want to know that you're willing to be second banana.

You know, you will be Ed McMahon to Johnny Carson. That's what you will be on the show. And I was like, look, I understand what I will be, but it's still one of the best jobs in television. And I'm here willing to take it. You know, but I do expect it over time I'll have an opportunity to grow. And when they sent me in my first couple days there, my bio to approve, at the top of the bio, it said, Joan London, in studio interviewer. And I called up the PR people and I said, well, shouldn't it say co-hosts? And they said, well, David Hartman's contract says that no other person on the show can be called a co-hosts.

I said, well, then take out that in-studio interviewer and just put my name at the top. Because every interview I go on, they're going to call me out on that. And I don't want to have to keep explaining it. I don't want to be put in the position of having to always defend the position that you guys here at ABC are going to put me in. So then over to, by the way, Barbara Walters came on the show not too long after I started and I got the interview. It was like, oh, my God, so intimidating to interview her. And she took me aside during the commercial break and she said, I'm going to warn you. Do not try to fight for equality around here.

It's not that time yet. She said, not just on the show, just in our country, in the world. It's just that time is not here yet. Just take every small assignment they will give you. and make those shine. And if you do that, your role will grow. And that's what I did. And she was right and it did. And building up like that, that is what got me to the place that I could go in and ask for more. But even when I went in to negotiate the contract you're talking about, I knew I couldn't ask for equal pay on the show because they still weren't ready to do that.

but I figured out that if I asked them for some prime time specials and them to pay me for those prime time specials, I could come up to a price that was pretty much equal to what David Hartman was making without it going against what it said in his contract. And interestingly, before I left that room, actually it was my agent. was there. And I said, by the way, when you're in there, could you just ask them at what point can they please just call me a co-host? And he did ask the question. And they said, in about four months, we can call her co-host. And that's what told me in that moment that they were letting David Hartman go. I didn't say anything because it hadn't been announced, but I realized at the time that they were going to make a change. And soon after that, they told me, and then

they started having me, you know, co-host with a different guy every week while they were looking for someone new. And I wanted Charlie Gibson. I thought he'd be perfect. And he knew that I really rooted for him. And something that he just told me recently that I had, this is the first time I'm going to say this. When we were at the 50th anniversary and we went out to dinner the night before, he said, I'm going to tell you something. Remember that first day when I came in to move into the office? I said, yeah, I remember. He said, the executives pulled me in and said, you need to establish yourself as the alpha male immediately.

You have to let the audience and everybody, the studio, Joe, know that you are in charge. You're the alpha male. And he said, I think you guys are wrong. I don't think that's what the American audience wants. He said, and then I came into your office. I said, is that when you came into my office and sat down across my desk? and said, let's do this show 50-50? He said, yep, because that's the part of the story I knew.

He walked in and said, let's do this show 50-50. Let's show America, a man and a woman can do a show as equals. And that's what we did, and that's why our ratings grew. But can you imagine that they were going to keep it, they were going to keep it going on with the next male host. But thank God, Charlie didn't let that happen. Yeah, well, good for him. And there are a couple good lessons in that story about getting creative for whatever it is that you want and asking. I think so often we don't even put it out there.

We don't even give ourselves the opportunity to get the yes. Let's talk a little bit about your advocacy work. When you look at all of the causes that you have and are fighting for, from family leave to women's health, what keeps you motivated and how do you decide what's most important? Well, the good thing about having a platform like GMA for 20 years is that a lot comes to me. My daughter, one of my daughters, who's just terrific, ran my company for 12 years, and she used to say, the hardest thing about you, mom, is that you do so many things that is hard to describe you, like you need to become more focused. But it's hard when so many things come your way.

But then I did start really focusing on what really mattered. and what really mattered to me was women and women's health and family health. And I'm very lucky that I can pick and choose all the different campaigns that come my way. And I can do them on my schedule, on my time, unlike 20 years of getting up at 3.30 in the morning. And when I've had the opportunity, when I've heard about these opportunities, you see in the book, whenever someone asks you can do something, just say. yes, and then go figure out how to do it. That's a page out of Joan London's playbook. And when I hear that I have the opportunity to go to Washington and testify before Congress

to try to get the Family and Medical Leave Act changed, and in that case, what I was fighting for was so that we could have the same leave for caregivers, for people to do caregiving at the end of life as we give for the beginning of life when women and now fathers also get leave from work to take care of newborns. And, you know, when I went to the FDA, I was at again to Congress to try to fight for mandatory mammogram reporting. You know, that was because I went and got a 3D mammogram the day I got diagnosed. And I got a clean 3D mammogram. And I walked across the hall and got an ultrasound that found my cancer. And the only reason why I got that ultrasound is that I had been sent on an interview to interview Dr. Susan Love. And I told her,

I'm one of those women that's out there in the lobby. And they're calling me in for more pictures. And that like freaks you out. And I would always say, why? Did you see something bad? And they always said the same thing. No, no, no, no. You just have such dense breasts. It's hard to see anything. And with that, Dr. Love said, well, Joan, if you're not. If you have dense breasts, you need more than a mammogram. You need to have an ancillary test. And I marched back into my gynecologist and said, Dr. Love says I need an ultrasound. Write me that script.

And he did. And I got that ultrasound that day. Otherwise, quite honestly, I'm not even sure I'd be here talking to you today. Because I had triple negative. That's a very aggressive, fast-growing cancer. But because I did that interview and I found that out and I asked for the ancillary test. And I got to tell you, I never knew that when those nurses were saying you have dense breasts, I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't know that that masked cancer.

I didn't know that that raised your risk of breast cancer. And, I mean, once I found that out and I found out that I'm a journalist. I'm the one that's been asking questions for years that I could be so, I don't know, in the dark about something so important. And I mean, it just sent me out on an absolute mission for the next couple of years that I had to go out. There was nothing that could stop me from going out. And I must have done, I don't know how many breast cancer luncheons in the next five years. And I'll tell you, I would do these breast cancer luncheons and I would say, how many of you in this room of 300 or 500 know what your breast density is? And like six women maybe would raise her hand.

So it was a really important mission to go on. really important. And now, you know, things have changed. I mean, we got that legislation through. It took us six years. But we got it passed. And it just went into effect one, not even a year. It just went into effect this last September. So now when you go and you get a mammogram, they have to tell you if you have dense breasts. And so women know whether they need an ancillary test. You know, the reason why they fought so hard is they know that it's like a domino. The next domino. The next domino. of course, is that the insurance should pay for it. And the insurance lobby was a lot more educated and, you know, financially backed than a bunch of us grassroots women who were going in there trying to, you know, get that legislation passed. Well, on behalf of all of us, thank you for doing this very important work. Just a random question out of sheer curiosity. What time do you get up now? You mentioned your 3.30 wake-ups before. Now that you can do whatever you want. I mean, I'll tell you, after that show, I think I, my husband said I tore myself out of bed like at 11 o'clock for a long time because it takes a while.

I actually went to the doctor after a while and said, is there something wrong with me? He said, no, you're getting over 20 years of sleep deprivation. But these days, I mean, you know, I'm still an early riser. My husband and I get up at 7, 8 o'clock in the morning always, you know. But I don't get up at 3 anymore, you know. So I'm like a normal person now. Awesome. All right. My last question is around something you write about in the preface of your book. And you say, looking back, I sometimes wonder how I pull it off. And the answer was other strong, capable women.

Yes. Talk to us about the importance of community. Ah, the importance of community and the importance of having other strong women. You know, and I list them all, as you know, all these women who were my assistants over the years who traveled with me, who were in charge of my skills. schedules who made sure that I was at interviews on times and prepared and, you know, it might seem silly, but that my wardrobe was in the dressing room that I could get dressed in the morning, all the things that women have to worry about. You know, Charlie Gibson's, you know, dressing room was like a big office with a little closet. My dressing room was a big closet with a little desk because it's different for women. And we just have more we have to figure out and think about. And the women who helped me over the years, interestingly, are my very best friends today.

They were so important to me. I could not have done it without all of them. And we get together, like once a month for lunch. And it's wonderful. They're almost like family. And that sisterhood, when I was trying to figure out what I was going to write for that, I thought, who do I want to, you know, I'm not going to write about my parents because I write about them in the book and what a big impact they had on me. And all of a sudden I thought, oh, my God,

I know who I'm going to thank. I know who got me here. It was all those other women who got shit done. All those other women who showed up no matter what and were by my side who stood. beside me and who were my strength and who when I was taking a lot of heat from the press who helped keep me centered and balanced and calm and kept my inner peace there so that I could show up and do my job and do my interviews and and you know be cool as a cucumber when I needed to be. I mean, they were just so important to me. So I felt very, very important that I give them credit right off at the beginning of the book. I loved that you did that.

I feel like it took me a little while to recognize the power of the sisterhood and how having other women is just integral in our lives. So thank you for being here today, for writing the book, for acknowledging the sisterhood. Listener, you can get the book on Amazon or wherever it is that you buy books. Again, it's called Joan, Life Beyond. on the script. Let's keep our local bookstores in business, by the way. Yes, yes, yes, yes. All the other ways to find and follow Joan are in show notes. Joan, thank you so much for being here today and for your incredible work and legacy. I loved this interview. Thank you, Nicole. I loved it too. Thank you.

All right. Here's the deal, friend. Choosing yourself isn't a one-time brave decision. It's a series of choices, some loud, some inconvenient, some misunderstood, made over and over again in fidelity to who you are and what you want, not the script that you were handed. And if there's anything that today's conversation reminds us of, it's this. You don't need permission or a perfect plan or a roadmap that already exists. You need curiosity, conviction, and the willingness to keep reinventing when staying the same would be so much easier. Keep choosing yourself. Keep asking better questions. Keep living your life beyond the script. Because that is woman's work.

Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything. Like packing a spare stick. I like to be prepared. That's why I remember, 988, Canada's suicide crisis helpline. It's good to know, just in case. Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a train responder anytime. 988 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government in Canada.