This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - JoySpan: A Smarter Way To Age Well (And Break Free From Anti-Aging Culture) with Dr. Kerry Burnight | 425

Starting point is 00:00:00 This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify.

Starting point is 00:00:28 hear that it's your money calling it wants a promotion elevate your savings with the scotia high interest savings account always earn high regular interest rates that grow the more you save and invest conditions apply visit scotia bank dot com slash h iSA to learn more scotia bank you're richer than you think if you love the show the best way to keep it going is simple share it rate it and support the sponsors who support us I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today with confidence, critical thinking, and the occasional rant, which for today's topic is inevitable because if you're a regular listener, you know that I like to resist or outright

Starting point is 00:01:33 rebel against any word or concept that has become so overused, so oversimplified, and overpublicized that it's lost all of its meaning. Once social media and influencers get their grubby little hands on something important and powerful, once it becomes a real or a promo code or a one-size-fits-all solution from somebody who just learned about it

Starting point is 00:01:54 three Wednesdays ago, but now considers themselves an expert today, well, friend, that's where I start thinking we've all lost the plot. And listen, I could go on for this entire episode about the words and ideas that have suffered this fate. Things like confidence, self-care, burnout,

Starting point is 00:02:10 manifesting, abundance, anything that falls under the grit grind or hustle culture umbrella. And over the last five to 10 years, a lot of what's happened in the health and wellness space. Because it seems wellness now requires 18 different supplements taken at various but specific times throughout the day, a wearable device tracking your every bodily function, and the anxiety spiral that comes from hearing that something we love, like coffee, is healthy on Monday, killing you by Thursday. and oh, I don't know, linked to enlightenment by Sunday. We're terrified of seed oil, suspicious of fruit,

Starting point is 00:02:44 convinced that drinking from a plastic water bottle just once is going to shave years off of our lives. And it all leaves me wondering if the stress of trying to be well is the thing that might actually be killing us. And I cannot, with the longevity craze, if the people who are talking about how to live longer conveniently leave out the actual common denominators

Starting point is 00:03:06 of people who do live the longest and, the best. Like the people in the blue zones are not treating breakfast like a chemistry experiment. They're not obsessing over glucose spikes or focusing on anti-aging. They're not trying to biohack their way into glowing skin and visible abs. They're walking. They're connected to real live people. They have purpose. They sleep. They laugh. They eat food that looks like food. And most importantly, they seem to be enjoying their lives, not just focused on extending them. Which is why today's topic feels necessary to cut through all of the noise because we're not talking about chasing immortality or cold plunging our way into a few extra years. We're talking about something

Starting point is 00:03:47 much more interesting. What our guest calls Joy Span, not just the length or the look of our lives, but the quality of how we live them. Our guest today is Dr. Carrie Burnite, a gerontologist, educator, and author of the New York Times bestselling book, Joy Span, the art and science of thriving in life's second half. Fed up with fear-driven anti-aging hysteria, Dr. Carey has become a leading voice helping people rethink longevity through the lens of well-being,

Starting point is 00:04:18 meaning, connection, and purpose. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, CBS Mornings, Oprah Daily, and so many more. And she was honored as part of the 26th, Time 100, health list. So she's here to help us rethink what it actually means to age well. Dr. Carrie, thank you for being here. And let's start with the thing I kind of ranted about.

Starting point is 00:04:38 Longevity has become this massive industry full of hacks and rules and tracking and hacking and a lot of fear. So what do you think that people are getting fundamentally wrong about longevity? I love your rant. And I was going to jump up and shout exactly, exactly. So what people are getting wrong about longevity is they think that somehow the goal is to stay. young, that doesn't happen. We don't stay young. And we certainly don't not die, right? So in our efforts to stay young and not die, we're missing the most important part, and that is living our lives in the time that we have. So do we want to maximize our physical health and our cognition? Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:05:32 But then we ask, for what? Why do we want to be around a long time? And by answering those questions, it puts us on a fundamentally different path. Couldn't agree more. And I poked at a lot of things in my intro that I think actually matter and work. So my next question is, how do we know what is relevant and important for both living well and living long? And how do we we know what's just noise? Like how do we separate it all? I think having the realization that there is a $60 billion anti-aging industry whose currency is fear. So all this messaging coming from newspapers, social media, from your workout group, from one friend spreading it to another, a lot of it when it comes from this place of fear. Like if you don't do this, you've got to do this. That's when you need to step back

Starting point is 00:06:39 and say, wait a second, are people profiting off my fear? And is this something new and shiny that's going to make me feel like, oh, if I just jump on this bandwagon? And it's alluring to do so. So in the mornings, don't reach right for your phone. Maybe sit in a chair. enjoy a coffee and with milk if you'd like it. And have some time. I do it with a journal where I take out a blank book and I kind of write and reconnect with who I am as a person. What matters in my case, my faith, my family, nature, art, music, laughing, learning.

Starting point is 00:07:23 Kind of get in before the world has an opportunity to get in there and scare you and sell you on stuff that you don't need. So I think that first question is basically just get your feet on the ground first before the day starts. I love that advice and I do want to lean in a little on the fear part of this and the anti-aging part of this because I do find it fascinating how often things are like sort of wrapped under the health and wellness and longevity container, if you will, But then the very first thing they focus on is something physical, like your skin will glow or you'll lose belly fat or whatever. And it really feels like it's linked when it really shouldn't be. Like, why are we so obsessed with how we look versus how we feel, especially in the longevity space?

Starting point is 00:08:22 Yes. It's a very good question, important for us to dive into because I think we've internalized a lot of these messages. I know I have. So sometimes I'll be looking down at my phone and I see many, many chins. And my first thought is, oh, no. And then I think, why would you think, oh, no? Because you're almost 60. That's how necks are supposed to do it. So I think like this internalized ageism is powerful and it's limiting. And so when you catch yourself having these thoughts of, well, I'm having a senior moment or, oh, no, I don't know where my car is. I'm losing my mind or nobody's going to listen to me because I look older to replace those thoughts intentionally to take back our lives. My benefit of being a gerontologist is just the fact that I've had a front row seat to thousands of people aging. So I've gotten to watch. I have never seen anyone not die. I have never seen anyone not age. What I have seen is people who are able to lean into and accept this older version of themselves. Those are the people that we want to be around. And we need to

Starting point is 00:09:41 be the role models for the generations that come behind us. So anytime you feel like you're going to talk smack about getting older or about talk smack against your older self, think about the fact that we're changing it for people who come behind us, just as women changed it for us. So there was a time where I wouldn't be able to open a credit card. I wouldn't be able to vote. And yet women leaned into being a woman. And because of that, I've had a different life. We have the opportunity to do that same thing with aging, which is take it back from

Starting point is 00:10:17 this lucrative business telling us it's bad old and shameful. And that old is a bad word. So sometimes my mom is 97 and people will say to her, oh, you're not old. And then she says, I most certainly am old and think heaven that I am. I'm not young. I'm not trying to be young. And so we could practice at younger ages. So maybe let's say you're in your 50s and somebody compliments you says, you don't even look like you're in your 50s. You might say, nah, this is what 50s looks like. I'm glad I've already been all those other ages. Like let us be bold and kind of in your face so that we can stand up to this ridiculousness that has tried to make us small. Yeah. So I don't want to say this and

Starting point is 00:11:06 potentially send the message that I don't fall into the trap of some of the anti-aging products or that I don't see the chins or the wrinkles as well because I do. And I notice like how I feel when that happens. but there is a part of me that kind of doesn't understand it because the older I get, the more comfortable I feel in my own skin, the more clear who I am and what matters, the more I don't give a shit about the things I don't give a shit about. And there's something freeing about it. I've actually very much enjoyed the experience of aging. Now, I haven't experienced any of the.

Starting point is 00:11:49 the, and I'm just going to put in air quotes, declining parts. Like, you know, my body still functions pretty well. I haven't had any major health issues. And so my question is, what can we learn from your mom and for the people you were saying that kind of leaned into aging about how to embrace it and how to navigate through some of the inevitable parts that come with aging? Yes. So what we have found in the recent.

Starting point is 00:12:19 is that there are things that decline as we get older and there are things that get better as we get older. It's just that the things that get better as we get older don't have any air time because they're not fear-based and therefore not lucrative. And so I want your listeners to know what gets better as you get older so that they can use those things. And then the other half of the equation is what you talked about with the very real challenges. So we are going to have health conditions. We are going to lose loved ones. We are going to have visual impairments and auditory impairments despite doing all the things. But when these hard things happen to us, either you live the remaining 20, 30 years

Starting point is 00:13:07 suffering and lamenting that this happened to me. Or you say, this is part of being a human. and that things, hard challenges happen, and I'm going to use the strengths of getting older, as you alluded to, in order to carry these objectively hard things in a way that's just not suffering for decades. Because that's the part that has broken my heart. It's the thousands of people that I've worked with who, let's say, after their husband passes away, have said to me, I'll never be happy again. And you know what? They're right. But a new way to do this is to say first acknowledge it. Like for example, you get a really tough diagnosis or lose a loved one. First, you want to really acknowledge it and say, this is hard. I'm going to grieve it. I'm going to cry my eyes out. I'm going to share it with people I know and acknowledge it. And at a certain point, I'm going to learn to adapt

Starting point is 00:14:15 and live the best of my ability anyway, because with the bad, there's always good. And the thing, here's what gets better as you get older. So these are the tools that you have in your toolbox. One is that you pointed to it. You don't care as much what other people think, which can be quite liberating. You have better problem solving skills as a result of the neurological integration and the thousands of problems that you've solved. So I want people to know, If you think you have good problem solving, you do. It's just that you never hear about it. And that problem solving is going to help you circumnavigate these very hard things.

Starting point is 00:14:57 So my mom at 97 has congestive heart failure, full body osteoarthritis, went through bankruptcy, has a son with leukemia, you know, all the stuff. And we will have hard stuff too. But the difference in two people's aging trajectories is not the absence of change. challenge, but how you decide and work toward walking with that challenge. I've become more convinced over the years that good health isn't about one dramatic decision or big change. It's about the small choices you make over and over again. Getting enough sleep, moving your body, eating reasonably well, and yes, drinking water tops the list. If water is something you're consuming every single day, and it should be, it makes sense to think about the

Starting point is 00:15:45 quality of it. That's why we use cove pure. Cove Pure is a reverse osmosis water purifier that's lab certified to remove up to 99.9% of contaminants, things like PFS, heavy metals, fluoride, and even pharmaceuticals. What I love is that it's incredibly easy to use. It sits right on the countertop, requires no installation, and gives us fresh, hot, or cold water whenever we need it. It's one of those everyday products that makes life and your health a little better. Right now, CovePure is giving our listeners $250 off for a limited time. Go to covepeer.com slash T-I-W-W. That's C-O-V-E-P-U-R-E. dot com slash T-I-W-W to get your Cove Pier now. Hey there, I'm Travis Hoym, one of the hosts of Motley Fool Hidden Gems Investing. Each weekday on

Starting point is 00:16:35 Motley Fool Hidden Gems Investing, we talk through the business news you need to know, and the story's moving stocks on Wall Street. On weekends, we game plan personal finance strategies and dive into the industry shaping tomorrow and host the experts, authors, and executives that understand them. Tune in for insights and a long-term perspective on investing and, of course, stock ideas, plenty of them. To quote a listener, it pays to listen.

Starting point is 00:16:58 Check us out and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay, so, you know, we're really talking about experience and living and choosing quite a bit. It sounds like that's pretty important with aging and longevity. I do think we have a tendency to focus on nutrition and physical exercise. And I talked about the blue zones a little bit in my intro. Outside of the benefits and what gets better of getting older, what are some of the other things that matter for living a good life as long as we can?

Starting point is 00:17:34 Good. I think of it as a bit of a pyramid in that the foundational elements are very ordinary and often free. These are things like eating real food, moving your body most every day. And when we get to a point where we are in a wheelchair, still moving what we have. So my mom is now at a point where she mostly just moves her arms and just a little bit. Finding ways to sleep because sleep is a time that our brain regenerates itself and cleans itself. And then social connections about really putting yourself out. there to think the only way to have friends in this 100-year life is to be a friend and to really

Starting point is 00:18:21 proactively put yourself out there and that friendship is as powerful if not more powerful than the other physical components to it. So once you kind of have those foundations, then you're also thinking about, okay, what do I have to continue to give? Because humans are intended to continue to grow all throughout life in their self-development and to continue to give of themselves. And the research is really powerful with growth and with giving, that when we reject the lie that we don't have anything to give and we find ways to, for example, mentor somebody, share lemons from our yard, crack a joke, like, you know, console somebody when they are going through their chemotherapy, that act of giving and growing physiologically impacts the length of our

Starting point is 00:19:19 life, the quality of our physical health, the quality of our cognition, and what we call fulfillment, just to what extent do you like living and do you feel fulfilled in life? And that that really matters. You know, it's interesting in my research on confidence, I found a study I can't remember exactly who it was, but the basic gist of it is that young girls and young boys have about the same level of confidence until around eight to 10 years old. And then we start seeing a little bit of a gap and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Long story short, in the 60s is the first time we see where women's confidence increases above men's confidence. And the idea was the primary reason is because that's when people retire.

Starting point is 00:20:08 And for many men, that's where they felt like they lost their purpose and their value and what sort of identified themselves around. And so all of that to say, it really supports the need for us to have purpose. And it doesn't need to be big, global, public purpose, right? Even just simple fulfillment, something that feels where we feel useful. Am I on the right track here? or 100%. So I like to think of it as a lowercase purpose, right? It's not like I'm solving cancer, but and it's not even so much like what I'm doing, I'm doing, doing, doing. It's more of that

Starting point is 00:20:50 being part, which is recognizing, huh, I'm a good listener or I'm the kind of friend that's there for somebody or, you know, nobody is seeing this painting that I'm doing. And it's of value even then. And that it takes a maturity to recognize that something that I get to do is I go to a gajillion funerals because as a gerontologist, it's just part of what you do. And what people say at people's funerals inspire us and give us clues. So nobody ever goes, oh my gosh, that Nicole was wealthy and she had this title and she had this incredible V-O-2 max and not a wrinkle on her neck. No, they say she was there when nobody

Starting point is 00:21:40 else was. She really could, you know, throw her head back and laugh. I remember that one night that she danced until the sun came up, right? These kinds of things that maybe like society hasn't, hasn't put on the pedestal of success are the real elements of a success and a life well-lived. And again, like having some quiet times to think through that. Like, what would I love for people to say at my funeral? Those could be just kind of clues to yourself of what is worth putting our time into and what is not worth putting our time into and what we can let go of. Like, yeah, maybe we're letting go of some titles or letting go of some physical thing that used to be a big deal to us in order to free our hands to reach for those things that matter more that are often invisible and maybe more

Starting point is 00:22:35 of a spiritual or internal nature. You know, as you were talking, I had the reminder of, we already know, you said, you know, she danced through the night and I literally teared up because I don't do that enough. And I would love to do that more. I mean, I danced all growing up and I just don't dance enough. And that would be at the top of my list of something that I would want to experience and that I hope somebody would say at my funeral. It's interesting, you know, we get so caught up in the shoulds and the supposed tos and the schedules. And I think sometimes we forget. But then somebody says something like you just did and like my inner knowing or my body or whatever it was, my spirit just knew that that's it. That's it. That's what we

Starting point is 00:23:30 crave more than all the other stuff. You point out something so powerful is that people do know. And so I don't like it when people say I'm an expert on aging because there's no such thing. It would be like saying you're an expert on living. No, we're all just here. And nobody nails it. And nobody, like sometimes people say, I just want to age graceful. I've never known anybody who's aged gracefully. It's hard and it's messy and there's diarrhea associated with it. But it doesn't mean that it's not valuable. And when we quiet ourselves, you do know.

Starting point is 00:24:08 And you can tell yourself, I have been, let's say, blue recently. I have felt really anxious. I don't feel like myself. Ever since I, for example, the kids moved out or ever since I left my job, I feel different. That's a great starting point to recognize that we have the agency to make small changes that are going to put us on a path that feels more authentically in line with ourselves. And the first step is taking the first step. These are little small things and saying we're all going to end up dead. So we might as well start living now and make mistakes and look like a fool sometimes. Two days ago, I absolutely ate it while I was walking in the day.

Starting point is 00:24:52 the airport. I just wasn't paying attention. I had boots on and I fell all the way down, could easily have broken anything, even my hip. In this particular occasion, I got lucky. I didn't break anything. And I just belly laughed on the ground of going, I just ate it. And everyone in the airport was staring and laughing. And that is all part of being human. And it's the case for all of us. Yeah. My next question is, Probably should have been my first question, but your book is called JoySpan. What is that? What are you talking about here?

Starting point is 00:25:28 Thank you. Yes, so lifespan, how long we live. Then in 1980s, we added to our vocabulary health span. How long we enjoy relatively good physical and cognitive health. Great. It's just that there are a lot of people who are living a long time in good physical and cognitive health, but they are so. suffering because they are not enjoying their lives. So there was a missing piece of our vocabulary.

Starting point is 00:25:58 It could have been thought of as well-being span. It just wasn't very catchy. And the American Psychological Association defines joy as well-being and life satisfaction. So it isn't happy, happy, toxic positivity. In fact, happiness and joy are kind of different. Happy is often externally motivated and therefore goes up and down like, well, this happened, but then I got this diagnosis and then this happened and then my daughter got a divorce or whatever. Joy is an inside out job and joy is good with aging because there's going to be hard things. And when these hard things happen, it's something that we can cultivate from the inside out in order to walk in a way. And so, you know, Victor Frankl, for example, was a physician who was in a concentration camp.

Starting point is 00:26:51 And when he got out of the concentration camp, he said, despite the worst possible human existence, I still inside of myself could reach for this place that was interior, that was spiritual in nature, and that could coexist with utter suffering. And that was a real light bulb for me because I thought we won't ever be in situation that hard. And yet somebody who was has said ahead of us, look, you still can maintain spiritual freedom and joy regardless of circumstance. Yeah, we had Dr. Edith Eager on the show. Wow. I was heartbroken to learn that she'd recently passed.

Starting point is 00:27:38 But I had that same, like, if this woman. can find joy. Like there is just no clear evidence that it is internal to choice. I wish we would have released the video or could have released the video, but there's this time where she's talking and she just started dancing

Starting point is 00:27:55 and moving in her chair and I just about lost it. And I do think most things that matter are inside out propositions and yet we're being constantly told that we find it from some sort of external source. Yes. So my last question may be a repeat, but I just think it bears rehearing.

Starting point is 00:28:17 How do we repair our relationships with our own bodies and the fact that aging is part of what we do and it's normal and can be celebrated just like everything else? How do we re-decide or re-repair or I don't know what the word is, but whatever got us to this point, how do we? change that. Yes, I love that question and it requires us to do it every day. So it isn't you just do it once and then you go, oh, I'm free. It's each morning we do have a choice. We can either continue on in the decline aging mindset, which I love spells out damn. And the damn mindset tells us we are worth less because we're older and that we have to grasp on to youth and try to to fool people into thinking that we're younger, which you never do. Or we can choose to think, no, I'm going to do this a different way. I'm going to have a growth aging mindset. I'm going to

Starting point is 00:29:21 consciously reject that narrative, that swirling around me. And I'm going to see the value in myself, even if it's tiny. And it's these tiny, we have 60,000 thoughts every day. So you think the power of 60,000, day after day after. So if you keep infusing it with, like when your mind goes, oh my gosh, I have a muffin top. Call 911. You maybe take a look and take for a moment and say inside yourself, like, so what? So what? Is this going to matter in the big scope of like when we are all in our graves?

Starting point is 00:30:03 Who cares? I had guacamole and a margarita. Of course I have a muffin top. And so, yeah. We're striving to be in good physical health, but physical health is just one piece of a very complicated puzzle and is not the most important piece of that puzzle. Yeah. Well said. And I just feel like anyone or anything that matters isn't going to care about our muffin tops.

Starting point is 00:30:30 Like that's just not even on anybody's radar other than, you know, complete strangers on the internet and who gives a shit about them. Exactly. And it makes me like people more. Sometimes, you know what, I'll see somebody reach up and they have the same thing I do. And I'm like, you, this is great. I'm not thinking anything except cool. I have that too. My nails are messed up also. My clothes are dirty. That is not where it is. And my 100-year-olds in my life who are thriving, it is not because they look a certain way. It is because they have stepped into this older version of themselves and they are showing me what's possible. and we can do the same for the women behind us. Well, I couldn't think of ending it on a more powerful note than that. So thank you, Dr. Carey, for your incredible work for being here today. And for you, the listener, if you like me want to practice this every single day,

Starting point is 00:31:27 go get the book. It's called Joy Span. It's available wherever you get books, but let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can also follow Dr. Carey on Instagram at the underscore gerontologist. We'll put that link and all the other ways to find and follow her in show notes. Dr. Carey, thank you. Thank you. All right, friends, maybe the irony in all of this is that the things that we want most,

Starting point is 00:31:50 things like confidence, health, joy, and connection aren't found through force, fixation, obsession, or chasing. They're not found outside of us. Maybe our need to overcomplicate everything is exactly what's getting in the way of experiencing the very things that we want. And maybe the same is true for longevity. The answer isn't spending our entire lives trying to add more years while forgetting to live the ones we have right now. Maybe it's less optimization and more present.

Starting point is 00:32:18 Less fear, less obsessing, more joy, more connection, more belly laughs, long dinners, walks with people we love, purpose meaning rest community, all the experiences that remind us we are alive. Instead of being so busy trying to stay alive. And again, the irony is our joy may give us more time. Because a long life is great, but a life you actually love, that, my friend, is woman's work.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - JoySpan: A Smarter Way To Age Well (And Break Free From Anti-Aging Culture) with Dr. Kerry Burnight | 425

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.