This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Leadership Unblocked (The Hidden Beliefs Sabotaging Your Ability To Lead) with Muriel M. Wilkins | 367

Starting point is 00:00:00 When you're flying Emirates business class, enjoying a good night's rest in your lie flat seat, you'll see that your vacation isn't really over until your flight is over. Fly Emirates, fly better. Get no frills delivered. Shop the same in-store prices online and enjoy unlimited delivery with PC Express Pass. Get your first year for $2.50 a month. Learn more at pceexpress.ca. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast.

Starting point is 00:00:44 We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, your street to Wall Street, we explore the multifaceted experiences of today's woman. Yeah, we cover a lot of topics from decoding your dreams to having a good death, from burnout to breakthroughs, from skin care to trauma. But there are a few topics we come back to again and again, things like confidence, purpose, and leadership. Because if we're serious about redefining anything,

Starting point is 00:01:18 we need as many women as possible at the tables where decisions are being made. And I also know that when we do episodes about leadership, some people tune out. They think, I'm not a CEO. I don't have a team. I'm not in charge of a P&L or a PowerPoint. But here's the thing. Leadership isn't just a title. It's how you show up in your relationships, in your communities, in your choices. It's how you influence the spaces you're in, whether that's the boardroom, the dinner table, or even your group chat. So when we talk about leadership, we're not just talking about how to be a better boss. We're talking about how to be a better you. Because every one of of us has something that gets in our way, the self-doubt, the overthinking, the people-pleasing, that if I want it done right, I got to do it myself, the head trash that whispers things like you're not ready or you don't belong, or if you don't fix it, it'll all fall apart. But what if the thing standing between you and your next level isn't your workload or

Starting point is 00:02:20 your boss or your circumstances? It's a few hidden beliefs that you've been told or sold about who you have to be in order to succeed. We're diving into why it's so hard for leaders, for humans to get out of our own way with the seven hidden leadership blockers that keep us stuck and how to finally break through those things that hold us back.

Starting point is 00:02:43 Because leadership, like confidence, like woman's work itself, isn't about controlling everything on the outside. It's about transforming what's happening on the inside, which is exactly what today's guest helps people do. Muriel Wilkins is the founder and CEO of Paravis Partners, a renowned executive coach and trusted advisor to C-Suite Leaders. She's the author of Leadership Unblocked.

Starting point is 00:03:10 Break through the beliefs that limit your potential. And you may also know her as the host of the Harvard Business Review podcast, Coaching Real Leaders, one of Apple's top management podcast. So, Muriel, I'm thrilled you're here, And I want to make sure we have time to talk about the seven hidden blockers that you identified. But before we do, I have to start by acknowledging that the vast majority of us want to be good leaders. So what's getting in our way? Why is it so hard?

Starting point is 00:03:40 Yeah, absolutely. Well, Nicole, first of all, thank you for having me here. I am delighted to be speaking to you about this and being with your community. So let me make a little bit of a distinction even in that question, right? So I think that there is a difference between being a leader. So when one thinks about how can I be a better leader, there's a distinction between being a leader and actually leading. Just like there's a difference, just because somebody is a parent does not mean that they are parenting. Right.

Starting point is 00:04:10 And so when we talk about leading, what has struck me and why it's important to people to understand, like, what might get in their way is that, if they're not able to lead the thing that is actually completely in their control, that is with them every day, that is, in my view, probably their biggest laboratory and practice ground for leading, which is themselves, in what way are they going to actually have the capacity to lead another person, to lead a peer, or to lead 10, 20, hundreds, and in my case with some of the folks that I work with, thousands of people. So I think the thing that tends to get in the way of leading, quite frankly, yes, there are obviously always external factors and challenges that we face. Those things are not going to go away. So the thing that really kind of gets in our way to meet our potential is ourselves, our ability to lead ourselves, that interview, as you mentioned before. That to me is probably the lowest hanging fruit, quite frankly, and yet the one that folks tend to reach to the least. Yeah. I also think we live in a world where we're taught a lot about how to look like a leader, executive presence, or how to look confident, and maybe not as much about how to lead ourselves and how to have these sort of, I don't know if difficult conversations is the right term, but with our own self. With ourselves. Yeah. Can you give us some examples of some things that start on the inside and have external consequences when it comes to leadership.

Starting point is 00:05:55 Yeah. And Nicole, you know, it's fascinating that you actually brought up the term executive presence in the world taught about that. My first book, which was back in 2013, and after that I swore I would never write another book, was actually about executive presence. And, you know, fast forward to now, what I realize is, yeah, you can do the external things. You can say, try to say the right things, you use the right body language, but if your internal game, your mindset is not aligned with those external actions, it's not sustainable. That's why I do not agree with the term, you know, or the saying, fake it till you make it. It doesn't really work. You're not going to make it. I'm sorry. Sorry to break that news. And so the part around sort of looking at what's on

Starting point is 00:06:42 the internal, it's no different than if you have a car, right? You don't just, look at, oh my gosh, something is not, you know, my car is not driving as fast as I would like. That's what we want it to happen. Or my car is not, you know, warming up the way that I would like or the ACs, you know, the AC is in as strong as I would like. You don't just walk around on the outside of the car, you know, and look at what's happening. You or somebody else, but really, I mean, again, I would love for all of us to have more agency. I'm trying to get my daughter to learn how to fix her car, you know, you pop up the cover and you look inside and you flash the light in on the engine and you'd say, what's going on, right? And the same goes with us. We are a system. We are probably,

Starting point is 00:07:26 you know, it's so interesting to me when we lead, we think about leading outwards, but we ourselves are a system, a mental, emotional, and physical system. And so we have to be able to look on the inside as well, not just physically, right? We tend to do that with the doctor if something's physically wrong. We look on the inside, they do blood work, et cetera. But in terms of how we feel and how we think, that also drives our actions, we ought to be able to flash a light on that and say, okay, in what way am I thinking that then leads to how I feel, that then drives my action? Because if I want different results, I can't just impact them through my actions. I need to sort of look under the hood and look at how I think about what I do to then make a difference in

Starting point is 00:08:13 what I do. As you were talking, the word authenticity kept popping in my head for a lot of reasons. I do think that there is quite a bit of research that shows that people are craving and desire that from other people. I think it's really exhausting to do anything inauthentically or to try to do it the way somebody else would do it. And to your earlier point about fake it till you make it, it doesn't work. It's, again, exhausting. I have a reframe of that. I say choose it until you become it. Like when we think about confidence, it's don't fake it, you know, choose it until the feeling catches up and all of that. So your book talks about seven common hidden blockers. I'm assuming they're mostly internal, right? Yeah. I don't know that it makes sense or that we

Starting point is 00:09:00 have the time to go into all seven at a deep level. Would you mind giving us an overview and then maybe we can dive into a few? Yeah, absolutely. And maybe I can take a step back and even talk about what what do I mean by Hidden Blocker, right? What are they? And so what they are are basically the beliefs that we carry. And what are beliefs? You know, people think beliefs are these hard and fast truths, right? Breaking news.

Starting point is 00:09:26 They are not. I talk about beliefs or think about beliefs as like the clouds, right? You know, I'm looking out my window here and there's a big sky. You are the sky and the clouds are the belief. This is what I taught my kids. And so what does that mean? the clouds are malleable, they change, they come and they go. And you can also, when you look at clouds, you can decide, you know, what shape they take, right? And so the same goes with your beliefs,

Starting point is 00:09:52 and what your beliefs are is they are your interpretation of whatever it is that's happening in front of you. Now, why is that important? What you believe or what you think about what's happening in front of you is going to impact how you respond to it and how you act on it, all right? So when it comes to leading, depending what you believe or assume about yourself, about the other folks that you're leading, or about the situation that you're in, is going to drive, again, how you act and ultimately the outcomes you're going to get. And so when I look at individuals who want to lead effectively, there are certain outcomes that they want. They want to be able to get the work done. They want the people to be engaged. They want to be able to level up in terms of responsibility.

Starting point is 00:10:37 they want to not be burned out, right? And so I looked at, well, what are the beliefs that tend to get in the way of a leader being able to do all those things effectively? And when I looked across 300 of them, 300 of leaders that I had worked with directly, these were the ones, the seven that I name are the ones that bubbled up to the top. That's not to say they're the only ones, but they're the ones that surface in this sample that I looked at. And so an example of one or two, they're so, Nicole, they're so quiet, we don't even realize we have them because they're so habitual because they have helped us. The problem is they may not be helping us in the leading capacity that we're in today. So one that is very, very prevalent is the belief that literally says to you, I need to be involved. And so what is the cost of that? The cost is, and what does it look like? What it looks like is, you're in all the meetings, you're asking to be copied on all the emails, you want to weigh in on every decision, you want to be engaged on every project, and what is the cost of that? The cost are threefold.

Starting point is 00:11:51 One is you cannot take on more responsibility. So this belief serves somebody very well when they have one job to do. It does not serve them well when they now have a gazillion jobs to do. And oh, by the way, they're managing a lot of people. So when I was an individual contributor, it served me well. But now that I'm running a business and I'm running a firm, it does not serve me well to be involved in all the things. The second cost is that it gets in the way of developing others.

Starting point is 00:12:17 Because if you're involved, it's no different than parenting, right? If you are involved, we know it is helicoptering, right? Right. Your kids, if you're involved in everything having to do with your kids, well, what are you doing? You're actually stunting their development and you're creating what the research shows is called learned helplessness. They're not going to do it on their own because they know you're going to swoop in

Starting point is 00:12:38 and do it for them. Same happens in the workplace, okay? And then the third thing that it leads to a lot of times is burnout because you literally hit this physical wall of not being able to be involved in all the things. And all of that,

Starting point is 00:12:54 the actions that you take, the wanting to be in all the meetings, wanting to review all the work, wanting to be copied on all the emails, being in all the things, is driven by some script that you have that's basically saying, I need to be involved in this and that and all the things. And so that is an example of one of the beliefs of the seven

Starting point is 00:13:15 and the cost that it can create in terms of your leading capacity. So great example. I'm curious your thoughts on this. That particular belief, I wonder if it's getting in the way of women choosing or getting into leadership, even in the first place. So obviously, it's getting in the way of being a leader, but a lot of times in my career, I've seen women with leadership abilities and talent and doing really well. And when approached with the idea of taking on a leadership role, they shy away from it. And it's the last thing I need is more to do. Right.

Starting point is 00:13:55 I'm barely holding it together now. I can't add more to my plate. And I'm curious, if you see this belief as even a detractor? It can. It certainly can. And by the way, I never, you know, one of the things that I try to stay away from is kind of creating archetypes, right? Because this belief can look different from person to person. But one of the ways that it can look, particularly for women, as you said, is that they will shy away because they're like, I can't take on more. What they don't understand is the more has been defined because they haven't really prioritized where they need to be involved. And that is all something that, you know, quite frankly,

Starting point is 00:14:34 it's not like these beliefs came out of the blue, you know, particularly as women, a lot of times depending on the society that you were brought up in or the type of family you were brought up in or, you know, even the type of school you went in. Sometimes were, as you said, you know, sold, you know, were conditioned to be this way. I know I grew up in a family where my mom did everything.

Starting point is 00:14:55 I mean, there wasn't anything my mom could not do. You know, she sewed all our clothes. We had a gourmet dinner every single day. She, you know, when she could, she would go out and work. Quite frankly, if my dad, you know, they came from a very traditional, old traditional family. If my dad had, quote, unquote, allowed her, she would have probably gotten a job, too, outside of the home. She raised four kids and she made it look so easy. So was there any sort of doubt that when I grew up, and this is what I learned is what it looks like to be a woman that I was like, yeah, I need to do all the things. I can do all the things. So, I'm going to do all the things. But that's okay, but that's not leading. And it certainly has an

Starting point is 00:15:36 effect. So I see it as, yes, getting in the way of taking on more because you're concerned that you can't. And what I also see, Nicole, is you do move into that leadership role and you approach it in that same way. And what I hear from some of my female clients around that is that, guess what, everybody loves them that they do this, right? And they're known as the mother, you know, mom, you know, of the group. And they're like, I'm tired of being the mom. And I'm like, yeah, you're not really here at a mommy. Like that happens outside of here.

Starting point is 00:16:09 You're here to lead. You know, those are those two do not have to. I mean, there might be some intersection, but you don't have to have the same approach here at work. Okay. And so it can get in the way, you know, whether you don't step up or, even if you do step up. Sex is a skill. And like any skill,

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Starting point is 00:19:19 handling everything, doing it all, being, it all, having it all, you know, the whole deal. And it comes at a cost, burnout, leadership ability, all that. Okay. I'm reminded, too, of the phrase, as you were talking, what got me here won't get me there. That's right. Okay, so let's talk a little bit more. I need to be involved as one of them. Yes.

Starting point is 00:19:41 What are some of the others? Okay. So another one that I see, you know, I'm going to sort of tap into the ones that I see in particular, kind of get exact. exacerbated with women. Because by the way, when I looked, I, you know, I did not see a difference in terms of like, oh, certain gender have these beliefs and other genders have a different belief. That wasn't a case at all. They were pretty universal. I think where they come from might be a little different. How they manifest themselves might show up a little different. And then how they are exacerbated might show up a little different. So one of the ones that women tend to relate to a lot is the, I can't say no. Right. And again, you know, what's fascinating to me about this, Nicole, is, you know, none of what I share in the book, whether it's these beliefs or all the other thesis behind it are new, right? In fact, what inspired me to write this book is that I see a lot of this language and a lot of this being unpacked in other circles, parenting circles, relationships circles, all those things. But in the workplace, we don't talk about things like beliefs, right? We don't talk about it. So the, I can't say no, quite frankly, if it's, It's happening for you outside of work. If you're feeling this at home, you can't say no to your kids, you can't say no to your partner, you can't say no to your friends.

Starting point is 00:20:56 If you've read all the books on boundaries and you still can't say no, right? You're still feeling like you're doing everything for everybody else, but nobody's doing anything for you. There's a high chance it's probably happening for you at work as well. And so one of the things is to try to understand where does this belief of I can't say no come from, right? Because you're not just doing it for the sake of doing it. there's a belief that drives that, that you're saying yes and taking on the more things

Starting point is 00:21:25 doesn't come from a place of just, that's what I'm going to do. There's a belief that drives it. So what we really need to understand is, in some way, I can't say no or saying yes to everything that's asked of you, is grounded in a need that you have. And we all have three fundamental human needs, all of us. The need to feel worthy. the need to feel connected and the need to feel safe. And so one of the things to ask yourself is, or when I work with clients, is when I say yes, right, what does that do for me?

Starting point is 00:22:05 Does it make me feel more connected to the other person? Does it make me feel more value? Does it make me feel more safe? Because then nothing bad will happen. And vice versa, if I were to say no, what am I concerned is going to happen? Is the person not going to like me anymore or are they, you know, are we going to now be disconnected? They're not going to want to have a, you know, quote unquote relationship with me.

Starting point is 00:22:27 Is it that I feel that, you know, I'm not going to be valued here anymore, right? So you got to weigh that out. And the issue is that many times we say yes because we're nurturing one of those needs, not recognizing that in this new situation, that need isn't necessary, right? the connection is already there or established, or I am already adding value. In fact, I add more value by saying no because I'm prioritizing something else. Or, you know, I'm good at my job. The job is good. Like, I'm safe. Nothing bad is going to happen. Nothing catastrophic is going to happen if I say no. And so that's what we need to really sort of be more conscious of is,

Starting point is 00:23:11 But in what way is this belief helping me or hindering me in this particular situation? These beliefs are not good or bad. They have served you very, very well. All I'm suggesting is that you choose them intentionally because then you have range and agency to then determine what is the best operating assumption to use in the particular leadership situation that I'm in. I really like how you pointed out that these are grounded in a need. I don't think I've ever heard it framed that way. And as you were going through it, I can tell you probably 80% of the time where I defaulted to yes, when I really wanted to say no or not yet or maybe let me think about it, falls for me in that first category of wanting to be worthy or prove that I was worthy. And I wonder if for many of us, it's certainly not all of us, but a lot of women, I think we've been socialized to be people pleasing.

Starting point is 00:24:11 to be the go-to, to be like our moms, who somehow said yes to everything and made it look effortless, you know, to be polite, to be nurturing. Any thoughts there? Yes to all of it. Right? Yeah. And so this is why this is not to sort of beat up, you know, what's happened to us in the past. We're all informed by our past and how we grew up, our schooling, all of those things. We're all informed by it. And so it's not to beat that up. It's to just understand. it so that we can actually give it grace to say, oh, okay, that's why you say us. Oh, all right, sweetheart. I get it. But you know what? You're not that five-year-old or you're not that 20-year-old or you're not, you know, whatever. You're here now, you know, being a badass in this job, you don't have

Starting point is 00:24:59 to use the same approach. And so, like, I think about myself and I share this story in the book. You know, I grew up in a family where obligation was the name of the game. You said, you yes to your family. You know, you said yes. And there was, you know, as I understand it now as a 55-year-old, but as a five-year-old, the way I understood it was that if you say no, you know, the way my brain computed it back then was if I say no, you know, my sisters might not like me or, you know, mom will be disappointed with me or dad will be disappointed with me. So, of course, what do I want as a five-year-old? I want to be part of the tribe. And so I say yes. then that continues, right? Versus understanding that as we adult and as we mature, we build capacity

Starting point is 00:25:48 to be able to respond to things in different ways and recognize that what we might have held as truce, quote unquote, truce when we were 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, even aren't necessarily the truth or the beliefs that we need to carry today. And so I do think that, you know, as in all cases, whether you're a woman, a male, or what ethnicity you're from, it is valuable to look at what are the assumptions that I make about myself, about others, about my context that are actually mine, that I have formulated, that I have kicked the tire on versus the way that you beautifully introduced it as I've either been told or I've been sold. And again, it's not to say that all the things you've been told and sold, you now need to throw out with the trash.

Starting point is 00:26:37 not. But what you have the power to do, and I believe this is actually what agency is, is that you have the power to actually choose, whether that's the one you want to keep hanging on to, or whether there's another one that works beautifully for you now, or to hold both and then decide, you know, at any given moment, which one is going to serve me or the purpose that I'm serving best. And that's the one that I'm going to go with for that particular situation. Yeah. So basically lift the hood and get a little curious. That's, love it. Thank you. Yes. Curious. Easier said than done, right? But yes. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:15 You know, I mean, I challenge that a little bit because, look, I'm trying to work myself out of a job, right? Like, this is what I do with my clients is to help them kind of get more curious. And I'm not a therapist. So I'm not going back and sort of healing what's happened. I just want them to understand that that's there, as long as they know it's there. And to look at today and say, okay, so like, what do I do? Right.

Starting point is 00:27:34 How do I plan moving forward? And so they think. I think, you know, oh my gosh, yes, it takes a lot to like, it actually doesn't. It actually doesn't. The work is in recognizing it. But then once you recognize it, it's a simple act of saying literally, okay, you know, I had an example this past week. I had to go to some big event and I was like, I don't really want to go. I'm not sure. And I, within, it took me a couple of minutes. And I said, Muriel, what is the assumption that you're making about yourself, the others in the event that is making you feel like you don't want to. want to go. And very quick, I got curious, right? And I was like, oh, I think, I think that I'm going to go and I'm not going to like the people there. Well, how do you even know, right? Or I think I'm going to go. And then I was like, and then like, who am I to be there? Which came up one of the beliefs that I have, I don't belong here. So when I drilled in, I was like, I don't know if I really belong there. Now, the magic happens in the reframe, right? The reframe was, well, you got an invitation to go. So like, why would you not belong, right? And you know

Starting point is 00:28:37 what? As long as you stay out of that room, yeah, you don't belong. But the minute you're at the event, you belong, you're there. Okay. Okay. So what if I decided or what if my belief was I do, I do? What, what would I do? What actions can I take that will then reinforce that belief? Oh, you know what I can do? I can look on the attendee list to see if there's anybody there that I, that I know already so that when I go, it will help me even more feel that sense of belonging. That's exactly what I did. And the whole time of that I'm going to be. And the whole time I was there, I just kept looking around the room, and I kept saying to myself, yeah, I belong here because I'm here. So I'm going to go talk to this person. And me, the introvert. So it does not

Starting point is 00:29:20 take that long. Like it literally took a few minutes for me to recognize. That's the part that's hard. It's to recognize what, why am I feeling this dissonance, this tension right now? And let me get curious. Yeah. It takes work to get there. But once you're curious, you're, you're, good. Well, that was a mini coaching session for me because I am an extreme introvert and every time I have engagements whether they be speaking engagements

Starting point is 00:29:47 or an event that I'm going to, I spend multiple days before going, why did I say yes? Is there a way, like, secretly hoping I break my legs so I have a reason to not go, right? Like this is, and I do this and then I go and it's wonderful, it's amazing,

Starting point is 00:30:03 and I'm like, I should do this more. Yeah. then I repeat the pattern. So I get to lift my own hood and get a little curious about that. And Nicole, what I love about what you just said too is like you're, you know, and I do the same thing. I'm like, well, maybe they'll cancel it, right? Like maybe when my kids were younger, I mean, I felt bad. I would be like, okay, I really don't want them to get sick. But like maybe if they have a little sniffle, I can cancel and like I can't go. And here's the thing with that, right? We tend to, when we feel challenged or like things are difficult or there's something we don't want to do, again, and feeling that disson is like something is off. We are waiting and hoping and crossing our fingers that something on the outside changes, like the situation changes or the other person changes so that then we can regulate and feel okay.

Starting point is 00:30:52 Well, you know what? Here is my thing. If you really want to be efficient, and I had to learn this the hard way, that's why I wrote the book. I'm like, I don't want it to be this hard for everybody else. And I learned the hard way with my clients too. if you really want to be efficient and you want to increase the probability and possibility that

Starting point is 00:31:09 you will feel okay, stop waiting for the circumstance on the outside and for other people to change. You figure out what you can do on your end to change your response or to broaden or diversify your response to the exact challenge or situation that you are reticent to face. And that's what makes the difference. A great reminder that we are all responsible and the sense of able to respond, right? We have choice in and how we interact with all the things that we said yes to. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, there are times when even the, I can't say no, when I get on the other side and I've actually said yes, and then I'm like, oh my God, why did I say yes? I literally, then I switch to like, well, you said yes. You're here now. Like, you're here now. Like, you're

Starting point is 00:31:59 said yes. So what do you want to do? Resist the fact that you said yes? No, you're in it. So how do you want to respond to what's happening now? Muriel, we did. I need to be involved. I can't say no. I don't belong here. Is there any one last that might be nuanced or different for women that we should? Yeah, I think there's the, I can't make a mistake is a big one, right? And we all know what that looks like, right? It's the, it's literally the often known as the perfectionist, although I think that there's different shades to that. I can't make a mistake when I would go back to like, what is the need that it fulfills? Oftentimes it's a need to feel safe, right?

Starting point is 00:32:43 Because there's some story we're telling ourselves that if we make a mistake, all hell is going to break loose, that we will not be, quote, unquote, safe. Right. Where we need to kick the tire here is there's different levels of safety, okay? If I cut myself with a prick myself with a little needle, it might hurt. It might be like, ouch, but I'm not going to die. I'm fine. You know, I'm safe. But if I cut myself with a huge kitchen super sharp blade and I cut myself in a particular part of the body, well, yeah, now I'm not safe. The issue is when we start sort of calibrating everything as unsafe or all hell is going

Starting point is 00:33:22 to break loose, which is not the case. And what I find is that the folks who carry this belief also carry an underlying belief, which is that if they do make a mistake, they will not be able to come back from it. And that is not always the case. That is not always the case. I'm not saying that you should be reckless and just go and make a ton of mistakes, but be actually, be able to modulate and calibrate which ones are the ones of the highest risks that, quite frankly, you would not be able to come back from and like really kick the tire and be realistic about that and recognize the ones that you'd be able to come back from. You may not like it. It might not be comfortable. And guess what? That's okay. So, you know,

Starting point is 00:34:04 when you talk about confidence, which often this belief gets in the way of, I think it's because people approach it as I need to know that I'm right in order to do something. I need to know how to do it and what the outcome is in order to be able to move forward. And what I would suggest is that if you have this, you know, belief of I can't make a mistake, you have to sort of redefine what it actually means to be confident, particularly in leading, because what it actually means is not that you know exactly what to do. It's being confident means I know that if I do this, I will be able to deal with whatever the outcome is, whether it's positive or negative. That's what confidence is. I can deal with whatever happens, right? It's,

Starting point is 00:34:53 not the confidence in the thing. It's the confidence in your response to the thing. So what you're saying is completely aligned with what I know to be true and what I believe about confidence. I define confidence as firm and bold trust and self. And trust is not the same thing as knowing. So confidence isn't knowing what to say, what to do, having all the answers. Confidence is trusting that you'll be okay no matter what that you can recover on the other side. As you so beautifully said, I just am reinforcing that this completely aligns with what I believe to. And I also curious, your thoughts on this, isn't part of leadership to teach people how to recover from mistakes and from things that don't go according to plan? If leadership, it would only ever be about teaching people how to

Starting point is 00:35:44 interact when everything's going right, then we would never create an environment where it's okay for people to take risks or it's it okay for people to try anything. Innovation would stall. There would be no growth in capacity of your people in systems. And so theoretically, it all makes sense. And it's that what you're saying is actually true. But again, if someone is still relying on the beliefs that made them successful as an individual contributor or made them successful when they first started off, or quite frankly, made them successful in school because that's where a lot of this, I can't make a mistake comes from, right? I mean, you did not get rewarded when you were coming up through school for making mistakes.

Starting point is 00:36:24 Right. You were rewarded for getting it right. Nobody gets rewarded for getting a zero on their exam and not getting any of the questions right, right? Your reward, I mean, I would love for a, you know, maybe there are schools like this in other places, but I, you know, again, when my kids were coming up, I used to say, we're not going to look at your grade, okay? And I want to look at the questions you did not get the right answer for. Help me understand what you were thinking as you were answering this question. And what would be so fascinating to me is that sometimes one of my kids in particular would be like, well, this is how I read the question. And I would be like, huh, okay, I can see how you can read it that way.

Starting point is 00:37:03 Now, let's talk about the different ways you can read that question. This doesn't happen in the workplace. And yet, this is where innovation happens. This is where growth happens of the individual, right? They recognize there's different ways of looking at it. this is how critical thinking gets cultivated. So you're absolutely right that if we were to define leadership as that, then, yes, it would open up the aperture for allowing for more mistakes.

Starting point is 00:37:29 Again, not recklessly. You also want to understand that there are some mistakes. You know, if you're my ER doctor, I don't want you making mistakes. So there are different levels of risk associated with it, but we have to understand that we have to allow it in some capacity. and what I always say is find opportunities, low-risk opportunities for mistakes to be permissible. Because if not, they're going to happen at the high-stakes one, and that's when you don't want to deal with them. Right.

Starting point is 00:37:56 Muriel, I could talk to you all day, but I know you don't have the time for that. So, listener, like me, go get your hands on the book. Leadership Unblocked, available on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can also find Muriel on her website, Muriel Wilkins.com. we'll put all the links and all the ways to find and follow her in show notes. Muriel, thank you for being here today and for doing this incredible work. Thank you, Nicole. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:38:22 All right, friend, what I love most about this conversation is that it reminds us that leadership isn't as much about managing people as it is about managing ourselves. It's about noticing the stories that we tell, the beliefs we hold, and the limits we unconsciously accept as truth with a capital T, because once we see them for what they are, stories, beliefs, limits, we can question them, we can rewrite them, we can choose differently. The work of unblocking isn't about fixing what's wrong with us. It's about remembering what's already right within us. It's about clearing the noise, quieting the doubt, and coming back to the steady, grounded center that knows, I belong here, I'm capable, I am enough. So whether you're

Starting point is 00:39:06 leading a company or a classroom or a community or just trying to lead yourself through a tough season, This work is yours too, because breaking through the beliefs that hold us back, reclaiming our power, and leading from a place of courage, curiosity, and confidence, well, that is woman's work.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Leadership Unblocked (The Hidden Beliefs Sabotaging Your Ability To Lead) with Muriel M. Wilkins | 367

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