This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Making It Without Losing It: The Truth About Motivation & Burnout with Jess Ekstrom | 409

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to True Spies. The podcast that takes you deep inside the greatest secret missions of all time. Suddenly out of the dark that's appear in Laub. You'll meet the people who live life undercover. What do they know? What are their skills? And what would you do in their position? Vengeance felt good.

Starting point is 00:00:20 Seeing these people pay for what they'd done felt righteous. True Spies from Spyscape Studios, wherever you get your podcasts. Quick pause. We expanded to YouTube because we keep hearing I needed this 20 years ago. And the next generation shouldn't have to wait. So tell the young women in your world who are scrolling and watching to subscribe to This Is Woman's Work on YouTube. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing women's work in the world today. Preferably without working ourselves to the bone. because a lot of us are achieving an incredible amount of things on paper, but are burnt the fuck out in real life. And many of us think it's because we lack motivation. And listen, I get it. Motivation and I have a very complicated relationship.

Starting point is 00:01:23 On my side, it's giving stalker X energy. I'm always looking for it. It never wants to spend enough time with me. I may or may not have tried to hold on it too tightly on occasion. And when it disappears, I'm left wondering where it was. who it's with and whether or not I should have put a tracker on that fickle son of a bitch. Because here's the thing. We are ambitious. We care. We want to make it. We want to be and feel successful. The problem? We live in a world where we are never done. There is always another

Starting point is 00:01:58 milestone, another launch, another quarter, another metric, a moving goalpost, another next level. And if we're not actively climbing towards something, we start to feel behind or lazy or irrelevant. So we chase what's next instead of experiencing what's now. And I hate that for us. Somewhere along the way, ambition got tangled up with anxiety. Productivity started getting confused with purpose. And we told ourselves we'd feel good enough when we accomplished. Then we would rest.

Starting point is 00:02:31 Then we'd be enough. We tied our worth to our attention. and then never let ourselves experience them. We didn't celebrate. No, we refused to sit with any achievement for longer than three seconds before we were on to the next one. And we're standing here wondering why motivation feels so hard to access. Meanwhile, I have to imagine motivation is looking at us saying, I show up, I help you build,

Starting point is 00:02:57 and it's never enough for you. So maybe the problem isn't that we lack motivation. Maybe we've misunderstood it. And that's exactly what today's guest is here to help us untangle. Jess Ekstrom is the founder of Headbands of Hope and MicDrop Workshop, an investor and women, two-time bestselling author, Forbes top-rated speaker and a mom, her newest book, Making It Without Losing It, How to Stay Motivated in a World where we are never done, challenges hustle culture, and introduces the arrived mindset.

Starting point is 00:03:29 the radical idea that you are already enough right now. Through her work, she's helped millions of women and girls while building businesses that prove ambition and inner peace can coexist. Jess, welcome to the show. Clearly, I have a deep and complicated relationship with motivation, so I'd like to start there. Your subtitle is how to stay motivated in a world where we are never done. So yeah, how do we actually do that? Can I first just say, I wish I knew you when because I'm like, you should have written the forward for my book. Everything you were saying, I was like, damn, I should have put that in there. That was a really good line.

Starting point is 00:04:09 And so I am so just thrilled to be here as someone who is a fellow, maybe an anxious achiever, who is always like kind of going after what's next, but the progress bar just keeps extending. it is, I think we write and we teach the things that we learned the hard way. And this is definitely something that I learned the hard way. I kind of felt like ever since, I'll just jump right into it. My family, we had a pretty traumatic event happen when I was in high school. My mom's uncle is Bernie Madoff. We lost our money, but was also in a very just public scandal.

Starting point is 00:04:52 being how old was I like 15, 16 years old, I felt like I kind of just went on this quest to write a wrong. I just wanted to be something so big and wonderful that it covered up this pretty intense shit that happened with my family. And then, you know, I just kept thinking, well, I'm going to start this. I'm going to do that. and this is going to be the thing that solves everyone's problems. That makes me feel like I have made it. And it's like you keep dumping buckets of water into a barrel that you realize has like a leaky bottom. And then it's just this hamster wheel that you can't get off of.

Starting point is 00:05:41 So it's something that I've struggled with deeply. And through writing, making it without losing it, there are certain things that I have found that can be very helpful in feeling like we don't have to choose between ambition towards a future and fulfillment in the present. And one of those things is just recognizing that the finish lines, the confetti cannons, the gold stars don't really exist. They're not here. And I think school and how we kind of grew up makes that hard because, We had clear finish lines. We had, you're in first grade now, you're in second grade.

Starting point is 00:06:23 You've graduated. You got an A. And so it made us feel like, oh, we'll know, we'll know if we're doing a good job. We'll know if we're ready for what's next. We'll know when we're good enough because we were used to getting those metrics and those really clear lines of progress. And then when you're an adult, you're like, hold on. Where is my summer? Is this like, exactly?

Starting point is 00:06:48 Exactly. So this is as much of a self-exploration book as it is for the reader as it is for me. Yeah. So, okay, lots of interesting things in what you said. First, the barrel with a leaky bottom, that's exactly how it feels. It doesn't matter how much gets filled. It's never enough because it's always leaking out the side. I think that's a really great visual. It really jives with the way I felt, I'm curious. It's interesting. I wonder how many of us do this, because I have a not same story,

Starting point is 00:07:22 but similar in that I think I tried to prove myself and maybe still do in relationship to where I came from or, you know, my dad's family is as a very difficult, and I always wanted to separate myself and prove myself. I'm curious. I mean, obviously you didn't do it. but you're 15 years old, you have no responsibility whatsoever and it still fueled you. Helpful, hurtful combination.

Starting point is 00:07:54 What do you think about attaching yourself to somebody else's misdeeds and using that as fuel for yourself? It was a really intense revelation that that's where my ambition was coming from. And something I talk about in making it without losing it is called like your success fingerprint. and it's really helping you uncover how you're defining your success in this season of your life and gets into these childhood questions of like, when did you first learn what success was? Was it when you watched your parents move into a dream house? Was it a teacher who told you what you could or couldn't be? And all of a sudden you kind of start to realize that you've been,

Starting point is 00:08:42 maybe painting a picture of success that is either outdated or not your own, but it's hard to discover that. And so discovering that like this ambition of mine was coming from a place of anxiety feeling behind. It wasn't necessarily I didn't like what I was doing. It was I didn't like why I was doing it. So I like to differentiate, and you guys, anyone listening can do this right now. I call it the purpose test. And when you take the thing that you're so desperately want that you're chasing, maybe it's a 1% top rated podcast, maybe it's a title at work or a project that you want to be on, imagine that thing that you're chasing that you got it. It was yours. But you had to remain anonymous. No one knew it was you. Couldn't talk about it. You couldn't post it

Starting point is 00:09:37 on LinkedIn. You couldn't do any of those things. Would it be something that you still pursue? it's a good gut check to help us recognize, like, are we doing something for approval or perception versus are we doing something based off of interest or impact for ourselves where we don't need to be recognized? And so it's a good shift in one that I do quite frequently. And I also understand, you know, most of the time I speak at like companies who are like, okay, Jess, kuna but patata, but we have to like get, you know, awards and external and money. That's all helpful. And I'm not saying that that's not something we shouldn't pursue,

Starting point is 00:10:17 but when we confuse those with finish lines, that's where it gets slippery. Yeah, and I just circle back on if that's why we're doing it. If our metrics and our results are the predominant reason that we're doing something, we may have to question our motivations, whether or not sustainable. As you were talking, it's really speaking to, you know, I have a default that I get stuck in my numbers.

Starting point is 00:10:40 It's really crazy how I can, even though I'm very aware that I do it, can so quickly go to, you know, at the end of the year, we were pretty close to 2 million downloads for the year. And that felt like a huge achievement. But it's just an arbitrary number. But I turned myself inside out. I ruined my New Year's Eve because I thought we were going to fall 200 downloads short. I was focused on the 200, not the 1,999, 800, whatever. And in full transparency, I don't know how I would answer that question if I did it and had to remain anonymous. That's a good one to sit with.

Starting point is 00:11:18 And it's really, I mean, you bring up such a good point where, you know, our brain is wired to focus on the negative because survival, it kept us safe. Like when we focused on threats or we focused on things that didn't go well. But now it's like, man, that's super shitty that you had so many downloads that is amazing. And you're like, oh, we didn't meet, you know, this 200 short. But one kind of like reframe, if I can give you one, Nicole, because it's something I do as well, is I think a lot of times when we have something we want to hit that's in our future, that is like something we haven't made yet. it's really easy to feel like we're at a deficit because, oh, it's in front of me. I'm not there. So therefore, I'm less. Therefore, I'm behind. When really, I mean, you look at like some of these people who I like to like look at athletes. You have like Caitlin Clark or Serena Williams or it's like they don't really have something that they haven't accomplished yet.

Starting point is 00:12:27 like they have, but they truly love the game and it keeps going. So if you love podcasting or if you find a way to truly connect and love what you're doing, then the ambition becomes more inspired ambition versus anxious ambition. Anxious ambition happens when we're working from a place of feeling behind or feeling less. Inspired ambition works from a place of progress and interest and impact. So it's not a, we know we're whole, but this is fun to do. But when it comes to a job, you know, sometimes when you're at work, it's funny, I was giving this talk at Kraft Heinz, and this woman was like, this is great, but sometimes I'm like, this is just ketchup, you know, like, how do I love ketchup? Like, I'm not saving the world. I was

Starting point is 00:13:20 like, this is such a good point. Did you ever read the book, Marie Kemp? condo, spark joy, you know, where it was like decluttering. But of course, I heard, yeah. But it was like a whole 2020 phenomenon when we're all stuck inside. So in that book, you know, she talks about like taking your items, like I'm holding my water bottle, does it spark joy? And if it doesn't, then you get rid of it. But with the asterisk, if there are some things in our life, like a hammer or stapler where it's not sexy. It's not exciting. But you need it. They don't necessarily spark joy. And so she talks about taking the hammer, taking the stapler, and thinking about, like, what does this help me do? Like, the stapler itself isn't exciting. But oh my gosh, this is how I stapled the papers that sent to my

Starting point is 00:14:14 lawyer to where I sold my first company. Or this hammer helped me put together my daughter's dollhouse. That was really exciting. And so in this woman's scenario, yeah, maybe the ketchup isn't exciting. But think about the people sitting around the table having dinner with their kids, squirting ketchup on their plate, eating French fries. Like, that's exciting. So I know sometimes it's hard when you're thinking, well, I'm just out of job. I'm just doing this.

Starting point is 00:14:41 But there are ways to connect the, quote, mundane or ordinary with the extraordinary outcomes, even if you're not present to see it. So to that woman, at least in our household, she is saving lives because my husband is obsessed with ketchup. It is a problem. And then secondly, too, I think, yes, everything you said and sometimes our work isn't always about the product. It might be the people you interact with or the way you can be a leader or the impact

Starting point is 00:15:12 you can make on a co-worker. I do think we get so focused on the outcome that we forget the people, the process, all of those things. All of it. Even innovation, you know, it's like all of the things that I've done or started, whether that's writing a book or starting mic drop workshop or happy hands of hope, started with something bad. You know, it was, oh, like kids aren't feeling good about themselves after losing. their hair to chemotherapy, I'm going to start hep anapap. Oh, there is very few women represented on stages in these speaking spots. I'm going to start my drop workshop or, oh, I'm really struggling with this topic. I'm going to write making it without losing it. And so I think it's important

Starting point is 00:15:59 to remember that sometimes motivation, inspiration, all these things that are kind of fluffy and good start in the hard. And so pay attention to it. I call it inspiration from frustration. Like most of my best ideas were times where I was like, this, like, this is just, why isn't, why aren't there more women on these stages? Like, women have great things to say or why aren't they getting paid, what men are getting paid. And that's how mic drop workshop was created. And so I think that hard times give us a choice. And they can be the excuse as to why we do less or they can be the reason as to why we do more.

Starting point is 00:16:35 And so we have to pay attention to those times. instead of waiting for like the bright, fluffy, aha moment. I feel like sometimes we believe that success means we feel happy, content, secure all of the time. And I have yet to meet any person with any measure of success that has experienced anything even close to that. It's more what you said is the heart is still there. It's just you do something with it. you allow it to motivate you. And that doesn't make it suck any less.

Starting point is 00:17:15 Like I know that failure fuels confidence. I know this. Yeah. And so in our version and resistance or avoidance of all of the hard things, sometimes we're missing our key motivators. Okay. So if we don't have the most healthy relationship, or I'll just say if I don't have the most healthy relationship with motivation and success,

Starting point is 00:17:37 talk to us about how we build a healthier relationship. What does that mean? What does that look like? So first, recognizing that success is an individualized feeling. Success is not what it looks like to others. It's what it feels like to you. And so I think noticing the times where you feel successful, that might not be a certain bank account number or a certain outcome. It could be when you were like working with a team and it was really fun.

Starting point is 00:18:10 or it could be when you were just in a coffee shop planning all the episodes for your podcast. It could be when you created enough flexibility to be able to pick up your kids from school. And so success is just an individualized approach, but it's really hard to know that when we're constantly surrounded by these tiny squares of the internet telling us, well, success looks like a free trip from Tart Cosmetics to like, Maui or whatever and you're like oh should I be like on a free trip to Maui and and so recognizing like what does success look like feel like to you which again the book can help you with that but we also have it's called a success fingerprint coach and it's a custom like AI coach that can walk you through it and put together a snapshot at the end so you get that when you get the book but I think also realizing

Starting point is 00:19:05 that it is a constant effort that is revisited seasonally. And so you can't just be like, well, this is what my success is. Two years ago, I was looking back in some old journals or something I was doing. And it was like, I'm going to have a Netflix show that, you know, does this. And I'm like, I could not think of anything less that I want today than a camera crew in my home. but I was gung-ho about that two years ago and I'm like absolutely not. So I also refer to this artist method called pointillism.

Starting point is 00:19:46 I'm not crafty at all, so bear with me. But pointillism is this painting technique where they put a bunch of dots on a canvas and when you're up close, like you're like, why are there just a bunch of dots on this canvas? But as you zoom out, you realize that the dots actually make a painting. And so I like to think of my life and my success as all these individual dots on the canvas. I'm not living and dying by one accomplishment or one failure.

Starting point is 00:20:13 It's all the collective. And so every once in a while we have a moment, maybe that moment is right now, where you can just look at all the dots in your canvas and ask yourself, do I like the picture that's painting? Like it's not about the dot that happened three days ago. or like, you know, getting laid off from your job or even a positive, like getting a bestseller or something like that. It's what it's all painting at the end of your life. Do you like where that painting is heading?

Starting point is 00:20:47 And so I think it's just like taking time to be like, okay, what is my, what is that looking like right now on my canvas? I'm asking myself that a lot now becoming a mom. I have a one-year-old and a three-year-old. and like my canvas is looking a lot different than it was four years ago. I'll tell you that, Nicole. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:07 Okay, I want to circle back on that. But before I do, I love this concept of zooming out and that each dot, I think sometimes we think each dot matters so much more than it does. There's so much weight and it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. So my question is around how important or is it important to celebrate and acknowledge. when we zoom out. I think so often we're focused on the next dot that yes, we zoom out.

Starting point is 00:21:35 Okay, first of all, none of us are doing that. We're not zooming out. We're not looking at the bigger picture. So step one for sure. And I get to do that myself too. But when we do it, how important is it to acknowledge, to celebrate, to notice what's beautiful? And if it is important, any tips on how to do up. I think I'm going to give you an example of last night. My husband was building a compartment for our shoes because our living room is just like a DSW. There's just shoes everywhere. And, you know, my three-year-old really wanted to help him. And of course, having a three-year-old with heavy tools and a task that could have taken an hour is now like three hours because she's like, let me help you, screw this in. And I could tell, you know, he really wanted to

Starting point is 00:22:24 wanted to get it done, but he was letting Ellie help. And when he was done, I remember before we even had kids, I remember, like, we were talking about what kind of parents we want to be and him saying that he really wants to, like, have the kids, like, be involved and anything that he's doing. He wants it to just be, yeah, come with me to, like, you know, paint the door and even if it takes longer, like, I remember him telling me that before we had kids. And so after they were done, And I could just see like the stress on his face of like how long that took. I was like, I just want you to realize that you just did what you said four years ago that you wanted to do as a dad. And he was like, oh my God, like you're right.

Starting point is 00:23:09 And so I think sometimes it's doing that for ourselves, but also seeing that in other people, which is one of the things I'm trying to work on this year. Our team is growing at Mike Drop Workshop. and I'm trying to figure out, like, what's my role as a leader if I'm not the executor, you know? And I think that my role is, like, helping people realize how far they're coming or what they're doing. And I find that those moments when I do that for others, it also allows me to do it for myself.

Starting point is 00:23:43 You kind of turn that part of your brain on. So I almost wonder if it's helpful for anyone listening. It's like, recognize someone else in their canvas, and how far they're coming, and then see if that also gives you permission to do that for you. Yeah, I love it. It's like building the habit in a little bit of easier a way. I think we are better at seeing and acknowledging the accomplishments and the people we love. But if we're building the habit, I don't know why this triggered the thought. I often do, when I'm making a hard decision or things feel murky or scary, I often ask myself, what would I tell J.J.J.

Starting point is 00:24:23 my daughter, if she was in this situation or what would I want JJ to do? And it helps me think of what is the boldest, best, you know, most courageous thing that, because that's what I would want for her. And I wonder if even the flip side of like, what would I say to JJ in this moment when she creates success in this way or puts that dot on the picture. I often think about it in when I'm in a tough situation, but I wonder if I thought about it in the positive, like if she achieved this, or if she got to this moment or if she was experiencing this thing, what would I want for her? And then do that myself. Okay.

Starting point is 00:25:06 We hear a lot about success and sacrifice as if they're coexisting ones necessary for the other. And I wouldn't go so far as to argue that sacrifice isn't part. of achievement or success, but your title is making it without losing it. So making it without having to sacrifice everything. And then you mentioned, you know, being a mom, I think for a lot of us, we often feel the tradeoff as either personal success at the sacrifice of professional or vice versa. So a long-winded way of asking, how do we make it without losing it? Great question. Do you have three hours? I'm just joking, but I know this is a shorter podcast, But I think it's one understanding that we don't always have to trade productivity for peace.

Starting point is 00:25:58 I did something like when we were trying to think of like, how do we say who this book is for? And my team, we came up with these like things that we know that I do, that go getters do. It's like if you've ever raced against the microwave to like complete a task or if you've ever tried to carry all your grocery bags at once just to like prove that you can. And there's all these like kind of almost little competitions that we have with ourselves. And so I think that I always had this concern of if I'm not anxious, does that mean my ambition goes away? If I'm happy with myself, does that mean that I'm not reaching towards a future? And I went on this retreat one time. There was a lot of answers to this, but I'll give you this one that I think was interesting.

Starting point is 00:26:49 And there was like this facility. It was a silent meditation retreat, which I've learned I am not a silent person, but it was really, it was really helpful. Yeah. And the other kicker to it was I didn't read the fine print and I got there and the theme was death and dying, which I talked about in the book because it was like one of the first times I ever thought about death, you know, in a weird. weird way that we really avoid it in like our culture but anyways so i asked this question to this his name was david shirkinoff and he said do you ever see an acorn and think well that's not an oak tree he's like no you think you see an acorn and say like that's a great acorn but you don't see it as less than what it could be which is an oak tree it just needs

Starting point is 00:27:49 the right causes and conditions to get there. And so if you see yourself as the perfect acorn, you have all of this untapped potential to be an oak tree. But that doesn't mean you're not a good acorn. You just need the causes and conditions to get there. And so I think of, I know this is very like Buddhist or maybe not as hard hitting as what the podcast typically is, but seeing yourself as exactly where you need to be and exactly who you need to be, that doesn't mean that you don't have more in you and more for your future.

Starting point is 00:28:25 But it doesn't mean that you need to feel less. Like wanting more doesn't mean that you're less. And so I've actually like really enjoyed building, almost like I'm a kid in a sandbox instead of like a banker on Wall Street. You know, it's like, oh, I wonder what this could look like and wonder how this could feel if I build it this way. And I also understand that there's privilege that comes with being,

Starting point is 00:29:00 finding work that you enjoy because there's work that just has to be done. But I do think that there's ways to infuse a groundedness. and contentness, no matter if we love our job or not. I know that was a really long answer, yeah. No, it was a great answer. And the acorn analogy, I think sometimes, too, we forget that an acorn doesn't become a full-grown oak tree from one day to the next. There is evolution and growth and time.

Starting point is 00:29:32 And I think often we are very binary. It's either we're the acorn or the oak tree and we're just pissed. in the in-between as opposed to acknowledging that all of those things take time and growth. Okay, so my last question, though, is, especially for women, I think we fall under the comparison and competition trap. For sure, let's just add social media into the mix.

Starting point is 00:29:58 It's really hard to be like, yeah, okay, great, I'm an acorn, but somebody else is a better acorn, or they're a little further along, or they're bigger, whatever. Any tips for unraveling your own individual definition of success and healthy motivation from everyone else. Yep. Something I struggle with a lot. And I've had a love-hate relationship to social media because of it. A couple things that I would say. One, recognize you're never seeing the full story, period. Two, I think I used to see people like doing things that I thought I wanted or could do.

Starting point is 00:30:38 And I would almost resent them for it. I'm like, well, I want to have that speaking gig or I want to have a bestselling book. And instead of being happy for them, I was resentful and felt less, maybe unfollowed them or something, you know, super immature. And now I see people doing things, especially women, that maybe I could see for my future. And I think, oh, that's so great because that means it's possible for me. And so instead of thinking of comparison as what you haven't done, think about it as proof and evidence that it could be there for you. And I found that the more I step into a place of genuinely cheering for people, not the fake like, you got this mama.

Starting point is 00:31:36 It has helped me have a better relationship to comparison when I truly believe that I want to see other women win. Because I also think it as just, I can say this on this podcast, like points on the scoreboard for women. Like, let's just keep gathering points that we can do this. And so I just think like, oh, good. I'm so glad that maybe a young girl, like, you know, the Winter Olympics were this year. Like, I had my daughter, you know, watch all the women's hockey team, Lindsay Bond, even though it didn't end the way she wanted to. I'm like, let's watch women do good things and big things because it's points on the board for us.

Starting point is 00:32:19 Yeah. And that reminder that we're not always ever going to be the one. scoring. And so when we are cheering or passing or being a good teammate or whatever our role is in any given time, it allows for all of us to play a bigger game. Couldn't agree more. And I for one appreciate that you're out there accumulating points for us and cheering us all on. For you, the listener, a reminder, Jess's book is called Making It Without Losing It. Go order it right now on Amazon or go to your local bookstore. Let's keep them in business. You can also find more about Jess and her work, including her mic drop workshop on jessextrem.com. Also follow her on LinkedIn.

Starting point is 00:33:06 She is cool on LinkedIn, which sounds like an oxymoron, but it is in fact the truth. So, Jess, thank you for your incredible work and for being here today. Such a great conversation. Thanks, Nicole. My absolute pleasure. All right, friend, if we are never done, if we are constantly growing, learning and evolving until we take our last breath, then we have to stop waiting until we are done to feel worthy. We don't get to keep tying our value to the next milestone and then acting surprised when peace never shows up. We don't get to demand motivation while refusing to acknowledge everything it's already helped us build. Maybe making it has nothing to do with reaching for some imaginary finish line. Maybe it's about noticing that you're already standing on ground.

Starting point is 00:33:53 that you once prayed for. Ambition is not the enemy, but anxious ambition will run you straight into the ground if you let it. So build, grow, chase what matters, but never light yourself on fire just to keep everyone else warm. You are allowed to succeed and feel good at the same time. Fuck the moving goalpost. And feeling worthy before the finish line,

Starting point is 00:34:18 that is woman's work.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Making It Without Losing It: The Truth About Motivation & Burnout with Jess Ekstrom | 409

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