This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Meditation for Real Life: Presence, Mindfulness, and A Zen Mind with Jo Rose | 397

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Starting point is 00:00:51 I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing women's work in the world today. And today, we're talking about something that sounds soft,

Starting point is 00:01:15 but might actually be the strongest foundation on which we can build anything. And that's a Zen mind. Now, before half of you roll your eyes and picture incense, floor pillows and somebody telling you to just clear your thoughts, stay with me. Meditation is something that I have been trying to do for over 20 years. Every health professional I've ever seen has recommended it. Coaches swear by it. I've made resolutions, downloaded apps, and taken the courses. I've even found out The sound the earth was making the minute I was born so I could repeat it while meditating. I'm not even kidding about that. And yet, I've never stuck with it. Why?

Starting point is 00:01:55 Well, because I can't sit still. I don't have 30 spare minutes floating around. My brain does not under any circumstances go blank. Something or someone always distracts me. But if I'm being really honest, those are the excuses. The real reason is, I don't like doing things that I'm not a mean. immediately good at, which is mildly embarrassing to admit, given how often we talk around here about growth, discomfort, and redefining success. The problem isn't that I'm bad at meditation.

Starting point is 00:02:28 It's that I am trying to be good at it, to do it right, to win some sort of prize, optimize the hell out of it, make it look and feel successful. Look at me. I've turned even stillness into a performance. And I'm guessing I'm not the only one. We think we're supposed to silence every thought, have a breakthrough every time, emerge, enlightened, and unbothered. And if that doesn't happen, we assume we failed. Meanwhile, we're walking around disregulated, burnt out, reacting instead of responding, disconnected from ourselves and our inner knowing. So we're going to unpack some myths about meditation, we're going to trade perfectionism for regulation, and explore how presence can become the foundation for our purpose. Our guest is Joe Rose, entrepreneur, MBA, TEDx speaker,

Starting point is 00:03:19 and founder and host of the globally consumed meditation podcast, a Zen Mind. After building a successful career in corporate tech, Joe felt called toward work that created deeper impact and founded a Zen mind in 2023 to normalize meditation as a practice tool for modern life. Her work centers around nervous system regulation, self-fulfillment, and guiding people toward cultivating presence and meaning and all the things that they do at work in relationships and within themselves. So Joe, welcome to the show. And I want to point out that you didn't start in meditation. You started in corporate tech and you're also an entrepreneur. So I feel like you must have some empathy for how hard it can feel to slow down, to make time, to be quiet and still. So I'd love to

Starting point is 00:04:06 start by asking you to just share some tips around how do we meditate? How do we create a Zen mind in our everyday lives? Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you, Nicole. I'm so happy to be talking about this with you today. I think there is such a misconception around meditation. This is what I've seen in my life, both professionally and personally. To your point, I did not start in meditation. I didn't go to school for meditation. I was like most of the population. I went to a tech institute.

Starting point is 00:04:39 I studied business. And then I went right into the working class. And so I think that seeing what was out there and seeing how people were operating and moving through their lives really inspired something within me. And it created this. interest in, okay, I want my life to have more meaning. I want my life to be more purposeful. Even when I'm doing the most menial tasks, you know, whether you're taking out the garbage in your apartment, whether you're, you know, presenting something in a meeting at work, there are

Starting point is 00:05:13 opportunities to do everything with presence, with purpose, and to really let that infuse your relationships with others and with yourself. So I think that one of the biggest myths that we see really is that you have to be in ideal circumstances when you are sitting down to meditate, right? We think about meditation as you're sitting on a beach, you know, it's nice and quiet, it's beautiful, there's no distractions around you, your mind is clear and everything is perfectly zen. And that is just not the reality, right? I mean, that's not the reality. Meditation is more of a mindset in my eyes. I see it as something. that you can do in conversations with people.

Starting point is 00:05:59 I see it as something that you can do when you're fully engaged in your hobbies, in whatever it might be, just doing it with full presence, full awareness, and not letting your mind take you to the past, take you to the future, take you elsewhere other than where you are.

Starting point is 00:06:18 And I find that when we approach anything with that mindset, we end up feeling more purposeful in every single thing that we do. Okay. There are so many important things that you said, but what really spoke to me is this idea of, you didn't say this, but the way I took it is I have the opportunity to be present, to meditate in a variety of different circumstances, in a variety of different ways.

Starting point is 00:06:48 It doesn't need to look one way. in this kind of honing in on, I'm just going to call it a quieting of the mind, a presence, an awareness, a being where your feet are as a much more approachable and frankly probably helpful approach to being zen or meditating. So thank you for that.

Starting point is 00:07:12 Could you give us some examples of ways that you are able to quiet your mind, be present, in some of these more day-to-day moments. Yeah, absolutely. And I'll share with you a story. This is actually perfectly timed as well. I was on a flight down to New York recently, and I was sitting next to this woman.

Starting point is 00:07:35 And we started talking about business. We started talking about my business. And I kind of shared with her that I was in the meditation, the mindset space. And she said to me what I've heard so many people say. And she said, I just can't meditate. I just, it's just not for me. It just doesn't work for me. And she said, I just don't have the quiet. I don't have the time for it. And I'm just listening to her. And I'm really, really listening to her while she's sharing this with me. And she says, so what about you? Like, how do you meditate? Like, you know, are you probably like super, super zen? She literally said those exact words. And I said to her, no. I said, I'm meditating right now. I'm meditating right now in this conversation. And she's, what do you mean? And she's like, what? I'm meditating right now in this conversation. And she's, what do you mean? like because right now my presence my focus is on you and I'm entirely present so I'm actively listening to you I'm not thinking about what I'm going to say I'm not turning your words into a story of my own I'm just very I'm so

Starting point is 00:08:35 focused in on what you're saying I'm entirely listening to you right there's turbulence there's people moving about the cabin there's things that are happening right but I am sitting there entirely focused on you that to me is a meditative act, right? That to me is you're so in the moment and focused. And it is something that we have to actively choose, right? Because when you're talking to somebody, think about it, how many times have you been in a conversation, somebody is speaking and you're already thinking, you know,

Starting point is 00:09:08 oh, this relates to this or this relates to that, or I have to make sure I say this, or do I look okay or do I sound weird? We overthink everything. And so it takes us away from the moment, from the presence, from the experience of what is actually happening. And so I think that that is a form of meditation in anything, again, in conversations in, you know, if you're creating something or doing something, you're not judging yourself. You're not creating a story. You're not, you know, becoming entangled in something that is not the present moment. And so I don't believe in quieting the mind. The mind is made to think.

Starting point is 00:09:51 That's what we've been doing for centuries, right, since the dawn of time, realistically. And the brain is never just going to stop thinking. And I think that when we allow ourselves to believe that, okay, my mind is meant to think, right? That's what it's trained to do. That immediately takes off the pressure. So then it turns into just being aware. Okay, my mind is taking me elsewhere in this conversation. Okay, I'm focusing on something else in this dynamic. Let's bring it back. And you bring it back and you bring it back and you bring it back as many times as you need to until over time it becomes just a way of being.

Starting point is 00:10:28 So I think that it's a practice, right? And that's where I turn it into it's a lifestyle. It's a practice. It's in everything that you do. Okay. Again, so many things resonating with me because, and I'm just going to challenge you, the listener right now. How many times did your mind wander? How many times did you think about what you do or don't do or what you have done or have to do or whether or not you compare or whatever?

Starting point is 00:10:53 Because I know as I was listening, the practice, well, there's an element of like, okay, what am I going to ask next? What, you know, what's resonant? But the practice of being present, the practice of being fully aware of what's going on. And I just love this. And I've heard people say that when they talk about meditating, even when they're talking about like sitting silently in a room, it's like just bringing it back, noticing. Where did my thought go, bring it back to the present? But I'm so grateful you said our brains are made to think

Starting point is 00:11:29 because I think that's an element of where I've often felt like, oh, I give up. I'm doing it wrong because it's always going somewhere. So I'm going to throw out a couple examples. I'm curious your thoughts on them. Yeah. I have found oddly, and I am not a runner. I hate running. I often say I only run when something's chasing me. And yet when I let go of any expectation about how far I'm running or how fast I'm running or how long any of those things, when I go for a walk or when I go for a run, I have found often that that to me ends up being one of the more meditative experiences. I kind of lose myself a little bit. And like I am very present. I'm very, in the moment. And often I have what feels like really important thoughts or an awareness or like a

Starting point is 00:12:21 light bulb moment. Is any of this, I don't want to turn it into an outcome thing, but this awareness, this light bulb, is that part of meditating? Is that the point of meditating? Is there some expectation we should have or hope to have or should we be letting all of that go? You know, we are outcome-based people, right? We always want to make sense of everything. We always want, you know, to gain something out of something. That's just, that's how we are, right? And I think that from what I've seen in my practice and in my life, sometimes the most fulfilling experiences that I've had, the most life-changing experiences were when I had no expectations from the other person, from the situation, from whatever it was. When we have an expectation or we are trying to force an

Starting point is 00:13:15 outcome, that takes us out of the moment, right? Because it immediately puts us into, I want this to go a certain way. So I'm trying to kind of puppeteer the moment, right? I'm trying to control the moment. So you're not letting things be exactly as they are. So what you're doing really is you're taking yourself out of the present moment. So expectations and, you know, wanting something to go a certain way, it really comes back to wanting control. And so the opposite of control, right, is when you're in flow state, is when you're just being. And when you are just being, that is often when we have those light bulb moments, right? And notice, it is not when we're trying to force them, right? It's when we step away and we just let things be as they are. And that's when we have, oh, look at this,

Starting point is 00:14:03 this idea just came up, but we're not actively chasing it. So I think that, and it's the exact same for me. I mean, I've had, you can't force creativity, right? You can't force productivity when you just have no gas left in the tank. I've seen that in my own business, like stepping away and doing something completely different and letting your mind just go on its own path. That is often when I get my best ideas and I have my best insights because I'm not looking for them. And I think that when we look and when we chase and when we try to make something out of a moment, that right there immediately, it just takes us away. It takes us away from that flow state.

Starting point is 00:14:45 And it's in those flow states where we have those ideas because our mind immediately calms down, whether we realize it or not, when you're just being, when you're running, when you're exercising, when you're painting or you're fully immersed in. in your hobbies or something that really, really lights you up and pours, you know, the, the energy just comes right out of you. That is often when we kind of lower our barriers in our mind and then those insights pop up and they're like little surprises, but you weren't, you weren't searching for them. They came when they were ready to appear. So it's shocking to exactly nobody that I'm trying to control an outcome or a situation. And I know you, the listener,

Starting point is 00:15:29 can probably relate. But this is really resonating with me. It's almost ironic, right? We're trying to force an outcome, force creativity, force intuition. And what you're saying is to create presence and to allow, right? It's the difference between forcing versus allowing. And that's not to say that when you're just being or when you're allowing, you're going to get whatever it is that you want. But I do think we increase our possibility or probability versus when we try to force or engineer or control. Yep, absolutely agree. And I think that when we are forcing, right, we almost have this underlying fear that if I don't control this, it's not going to happen. If I don't force this, it's not going to go the way that I want.

Starting point is 00:16:22 And so the practice of allowing it really is rooted in trusting, trusting, being open to it. And this really comes back to nervous system regulation, right? A lot of us exist in survival mode without even realizing it, right? We're chronically stressed. We're chronically under pressure. And so what happens is our system, our being, it's braced and it's closed off. So I experienced this in my past relationships specifically. It was like I had to have such control over everything.

Starting point is 00:16:55 Otherwise, it wasn't going to go my way. And that ended very, very poorly for all parties involved, right? It was like when you are hyper-controlling, it's basically that you don't trust yourself. You don't trust the other person and you don't trust the situation at hand. So you are under stress. Your nervous system is in survival and you're completely tightened and braced. And right there, you're not open, right? You are, that is the opposite of being open and receptive.

Starting point is 00:17:23 And I talk a lot about this. You know, being open and receptive, it comes from a regulated nervous system where you allow things to be as they are. And you know that there's safety in your body, that there's safety in your presence. And if something doesn't go your way, you can regulate yourself through it. It's not going to be the end of the world. We often think, you know, if this situation doesn't go the way that I had planned, I'm going to collapse, right?

Starting point is 00:17:48 If I don't get this job, if I don't get that promotion, if this doesn't work out for me, then, you know, I am going to tank. I'm going to collapse. It's going to be like a, you know, falling star, right? You're just going to be completely torn apart. But if you believe, hey, either way, it's going to be fine. Either way, everything is meant to be exactly as it is. And we can regulate ourselves through it.

Starting point is 00:18:15 If we get rejected, I'm going to be there to pick myself up. If this doesn't work out, something better is on its way. That mindset, it's more than a mindset. It's a mindset first, but then it's almost a physical reaction afterwards. And then that gets embedded into your nervous system where you truly feel open and receptive. And when you exist in that state, it's a lot easier to let go of control and let go of feeling like you need to have every single step planned and that you need to grasp to the outcomes. And then intuition rises and then opportunities come to you because you're open and receptive and you're not trying to control them out of fear. Sorry to break in, but this part matters. Rate the show, share it, and support

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Starting point is 00:20:16 But they don't dream, read a room, rally a team, and they certainly don't have shower thoughts, pivotal hallway chats, or big ideas. People do. And people, when given the best AI platform, they're freed up to do the fulfilling work they want to do. To see how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Joe, I think myself included, we need to rewind and re-listen to that multiple times. I mean, it was a yes, yes, and yes.

Starting point is 00:20:43 I define confidence as firm and bold trust and self. And I often think people think confidence is knowing how to get what you want or that everything works out. And the deepest level of trust is knowing that you'll be okay no matter what, knowing that everything happens for a reason and you are valuable and inherently worthy exactly as you are in this moment. To me, that is like the purest, deepest level of trust. And what? What you just said is so aligned and I think really truly what we ultimately want. So, okay, we all know what it is to be dysregulated, right? Every single one of us has experienced that.

Starting point is 00:21:27 When you were talking about it, it's like my shoulders come up to my ears or like that feeling of bracing being clenched. Talk to us about what feeling regulated. And I can't imagine anybody is regulated 100% of the time. But talk to us about what feeling and being regulated. What does that experience feel like? Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question.

Starting point is 00:21:51 And I would say I talk openly about this with my community as well. You know, I would say I live most of my life in a regulated state. And I've done so by kind of curating a lifestyle and boundaries and routines and things that really, really resonate with my nervous system. And it's been years of this type of. intentional work that has allowed me to really show up in my life in a regulated way. However, I was, I was not always like that, right? I mean, prior to even starting his end mind, and there's been times in my life, even recently,

Starting point is 00:22:26 where I fall into dysregulation. It's natural. Again, circumstances are not always perfect, and our body does respond. But I lived a life prior that was extraordinarily disregulated. You know, it came out in my relationships and my work and everything. and it was it was really really difficult. I didn't know why things weren't working out for me. I didn't know why I felt this way.

Starting point is 00:22:48 I didn't know why I was having anxiety. I didn't understand and it was really the product of a lifestyle that just wasn't supporting me. So when you think about regulation and what it's like to live in a regulated state, it's not just a mindset, right? It's not just a mindset. It's a feeling and it's a way of being. And it's anchoring your days.

Starting point is 00:23:11 with routines that support you, with those boundaries, with, you know, little things that you are choosing to do that support regulation. When you are regulated, it's just we take the pressure off. Like, you just realize my life isn't that serious. You know, I'm running a business and the stakes are high, right? But to be able to do that in a relaxed way where it's like, you know what, if this works out, great. If not, like, missed my flight the other day. And, you know, old me would have been freaking out, you know, and making a bunch of calls and free, I was like, I missed the flight. Now what? I'm going to sit at the airport and I'm going to go talk to a couple people, you know, and I'm going to wait for the next one. And it's just being able to kind of go with the flow, right?

Starting point is 00:23:56 When we're dysregulated, everything is urgent. Everything is an emergency. Everything is stress inducing. And when you take that pressure off because you are living in a regulated state, everything just becomes a little bit, a little bit lighter. Like you just, you stop taking life so seriously. It's like if it works, great. If it doesn't, great. You know, back to the drawing board. Something better is going to come.

Starting point is 00:24:16 And it's not being careless. I think that's the other thing that we have to be careful of and mindful of when we talk about this, you know, this idea of detachment. It's not apathy. It's not carelessness. It's really just, again, it's trust. It's trust in the process, but also trust in yourself that either way it's going to be okay and we're going to make it through, you know, and you just have this level of,

Starting point is 00:24:42 everything's going to be fine. Everything's going to be okay. It's acceptance for exactly as it is without trying to force things to be a certain way. I want to hone in on this concept of routines that support you, basically creating an environment in which we live that supports our regulation as opposed to constantly contributing to our dysregulation, which which I think the environment most of us live in. I think we live in a society, especially on social media, where we get a lot of like follow my routine

Starting point is 00:25:15 where this routine works. So my question is, how do we begin to discover and identify the routines that would support us as individuals? Yep. Yeah, it's a really great question. I think it's a lot of experimentation, first and foremost. It's knowing yourself, right?

Starting point is 00:25:34 If you are, let's say, not a morning person, right, don't force yourself to get up at 5 a.m. to meditate. It's not going to work, right? It's just not going to work. I was listening to advice from a male entrepreneur and very, very, you know, powerful in this space. And something that he said was, you know, every single day, I get up at 5 a.m. and I go to bed at 9 p.m. every single day. That's my routine. And I tried to follow it thinking like, oh, maybe that's going to, you know, optimize my productivity. Within like, two or three weeks. I was like, no way. I was, I was just more tired on one day I wanted to sleep in, right? Or I had a late night. I was up working late and I needed to put a couple more hours in. And so what happens, I think, is that people, they try these things and then they fall off. And then comes the doubt, I'm not good at this. This isn't meant for me. Whatever. It's not going to work. And that's what we all do, right? We try something. We think it's going to work. We try it for a week or two weeks. and then it doesn't work out. And then we think that it's something,

Starting point is 00:26:34 it's a direct hit to our own identity. You know, we can't do this. It's not meant for us. So I think the first thing is really getting to know yourself and being true about who you are, you know, getting real with yourself and doing that self-discovery. A lot of people that I've met, I realize they don't have that awareness.

Starting point is 00:26:54 They're avoiding something, right? And being truthful and vulnerable and authentic with yourself, that is the first step in actually, mastering yourself, actually mastering your routines, knowing what works for you. I think that, you know, there's some blanket statements that we can all say, right? We shouldn't be eating as much processed foods, right? We shouldn't have as much screen time as we do as a society. You know, there's things that we can do that we can replace in our life and that we can curb in a way that supports the greater population for sure. But I think it's all about experimentation.

Starting point is 00:27:30 It starts with learning who you are, knowing who you are, being real about who you are, experimenting from that place, and also being okay with it not working out. This didn't work out for me. I'm going to try something different, right? And it's just these kind of baby steps that we take in our own life. And then we figure it out because I didn't just wake up one day and realize, oh, you know, this is the routine that works for me. I definitely didn't see it on Instagram. I didn't follow someone else's routine. And it's also tough because I don't promote my routine to other people because I don't believe that I have a solution. I don't believe that it's the end all be all. I just believe that it works for me and my lifestyle right now. That's not to say it'll continue to work six months from now. We just have to stay fluid and honest with ourselves in order to find those routines that actually do fit. Yeah, I'm going to repeat fluid and honest because what I'm hearing is that your routines that support you have been cultivated. through time and experience and being honest with yourself and trusting yourself and all those things. And whatever routine that you have that keeps you regulated today may not a year from

Starting point is 00:28:44 now. And so again, I go back to the word you use practice. We think being regulated means that we have eliminated all discomfort. And when you use words like boundaries or when we think about growth or what really matters to us. When we are checking in with what works for us and doesn't, we have to understand that what works for us may still come with certain levels of discomfort. So how do you work through discomfort, holding a boundary, communicating a boundary, trying something that doesn't work, and still hold on to being and feeling regulated? Yeah. Yeah, I think everything that we do, it's almost in devotion, right? Devotion over discipline. That's kind of what I've been feeling lately in my life. And it's what we're choosing is really for our greatest good, right? It's for us to be

Starting point is 00:29:41 better for ourselves and for us to be better for the people in our lives, you know, our families, our coworkers, our friends. So it's seeing these routines, seeing these choices as something that is really, really enabling you to be the best version of yourself. And when we think about discipline, we think about, you know, I have to do this, right? It has to be perfect. I have to do it. And it's almost like a like a form of punishment sometimes. We take it as like, you know, I have to be at the gym every single morning. But when we when we kind of rewrite that narrative and we see it as a devotion to you being your best self, again, it takes the pressure off. It turns it into, I don't want to say easier, but it's just something that we can lean into a little bit more as opposed to doing it out of obligation or pressure or feeling like it has to be done this way.

Starting point is 00:30:38 We allow ourselves to do it because we want to do it. I want to be the best person that I can be for my team, for my community, for myself. You know, I want to be that version. So I have to meditate every single morning. You know, that right there, is a devotion to myself so that I can show up fully for other people. Because if you can't show up for yourself, you can't show up for others around you. So that's why you have to prioritize what it is that is going to truly help you ground and stay centered and aligned and stay regulated. It's far deeper than doing it out of obligation or pressure. And it really does come back to devotion of you being your greatest self. I'm going to hold on to that. The, devotion over discipline that really speaks to me. I think discipline we often beat ourselves up about or we're not enough or whatever versus devotion. That just is much more inspiring. I'll say that.

Starting point is 00:31:40 When we think about testing routines that support us, for those of us like me who want to meditate and want to make this part of our routine but haven't had success in the past because of all the reasons, right? Any ways or ideas or tips that we can begin to develop this devotion to practice meditating in our day-to-day lives? Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, one of the first things that I would tell anybody, you know, anybody who is even dabbling in meditation or just trying to, you know, live their life with more presence and purpose is just, again, being fully there, right? And we can do that through our senses. We can do that through our five senses, right? So let's say you're washing dishes, you know, and your mind is elsewhere, okay? Bring it back to how does the water feel, right? How does the

Starting point is 00:32:38 soap feel? What do you smell? What are you seeing? Look at the colors. Look at the textures. It seems really simple, but how often do we actually connect with our five senses, right? And often we have a lot of distractions that are around us, right? We're also listening to music or we're having a conversation or we're thinking about what has to get done tomorrow. You're not here. Okay. So I think engaging your senses is one of the first things that you can do in any situation.

Starting point is 00:33:07 Another thing that I love to do is we are a society that always, always has our phone, like they're glued to our hands, right? So we always have something to fill in the blanks. We always have a distraction. now more than ever, we have something that can take our attention in a millisecond, right? So you're waiting in line, you know, at the grocery store. What do you do? Right? You usually pull out your phone. You're scrolling. You're checking your emails really quickly. You're waiting at a stoplight. You're on the train, right? You always have the ability to take yourself elsewhere and to distract yourself and to fill that gap. And so let yourself sit in the silence.

Starting point is 00:33:47 Let yourself just observe, right? Let yourself start coming. conversations with strangers, just observe other people. And I think that, again, it's so simple, but we have been taken so far away from that. I love like when I'm commuting or when I'm, you know, anywhere that I would naturally want to pull out my phone or even read a book or something. I just sit. I just sit and I watch and I look at people's facial expressions, right? I watch body language. I observe what people are wearing and I'm I'm not making stories about it in my head. I'm not judging. I'm not, I'm just observing it as it is, you know, and just kind of being there, right? Being there in that and it sounds a little bit strange, especially because we always have

Starting point is 00:34:37 a way to distract ourselves. And I think that once we pull away those distractions and we're just left with being, it almost forces us to explore real presence, right? Presence was a lot easier back in the day, right? When we could be fully involved in something without our phones dinging or without, you know, something happening in the background that we absolutely had to tend to right now. So I think distancing ourselves from our phones, right, and from media and allowing ourselves to just be in the moment, engage those senses, right? be in the moment, stop filling every single gap with a distraction. Those are kind of my go-to ways that I would share with anybody on, you know, just how to be more present in anything that you're doing.

Starting point is 00:35:27 Yeah, Joe, I have to thank you for offering up ideas that are very approachable and also something that we can build off of. Like, you know, when people are like, okay, start by setting aside 30 minutes and sit on the floor, cross-legged, it's like I shut down. All of this feels approachable and yet really important. And I think it allows for us to again begin to practice being aware, being present, noticing and bringing back in our day-to-day lives. And I think when we experience the value of that, then it is something we're going to want to build off of and devote ourselves to. So all of that to say thank you. And I want to make sure our listener knows that another potential way to build this is to listen to a Zen Mind, guided meditations,

Starting point is 00:36:21 wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. So we're going to put all the links and show notes to Apple, Spotify, YouTube. You can also find more about Joe and her work by going to the website, a zenmindglobal.com. You can also find her at a.com on Instagram. Joe, thank you for being our guest and for again making this so much more approachable than it ever has been for me. Of course. Thank you so much, Nicole. I think these are really important conversations and I think that everybody deserves to live really meaningful, fulfilled lives. And we all have it in ourselves to allow that to happen. It's just making the choice and moving through life with that intention. So it was absolute honor to speak with you about this today.

Starting point is 00:37:06 It was my pleasure and I couldn't agree more. So friend, if your brain says you're doing it all wrong, I want you to answer, yeah, maybe, but at least I'm doing it. Because that's how anything worth doing actually happens. Tiny steps, small actions, one foot in front of the other, noticing and bringing it back. Not perfectly, not all at once, not with a breakthrough every time. Perfectionism wants to shove you into a tight, cramped, rigid, very noisy box. It wants certainty, guarantees, control. It wants you to wait until you can do it flawlessly.

Starting point is 00:37:45 But most of what you want, meaningful work, connected relationships, a real sense of purpose, doesn't live in that box. It lives outside of it, which means if we want to find it, feel it, hear it, we have to get quiet. We get to be present. Because listening, trusting, honoring yourself, all of that is woman's work. Have you ever gazed in wonder at the Great Pyramid? Have you marvelled at the golden face of Tudankhamun? Or admired the delicate features of Queen Nefertiti?

Starting point is 00:38:30 If you have, you'll probably like The History of Egypt podcast. Every week, we explore tales of this ancient culture. The history of Egypt is available wherever you get your podcast. fix. Come, let me introduce you to the world of ancient Egypt. Are you earning and investing in the stock market? In real estate? How about in relationships? Are you earning and investing in your life? I'm Doc G, semi-retired hospice physician and host of the Earn and Invest podcast where we have the 201 or next-level conversations about money and life. Not only how you make money and grow it, but also how you use your wealth to create a better

Starting point is 00:39:15 and more fulfilling existence. Join us every Monday and Thursday wherever you listen to Fine Podcasts.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Meditation for Real Life: Presence, Mindfulness, and A Zen Mind with Jo Rose | 397

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