This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Pivot With Purpose: How to Know When It’s Time to Stay, Shift, or Walk Away with Melissa Gonzalez | 393

Starting point is 00:00:00 Pam, are you here to game with me? In a minute, Ryan, but first, it's time to share what's happening on the 10 News podcast. The 10 News is a kids' news podcast for curious 8 to 12-year-olds that even grown-ups can learn from. What else is there to say? That we cover everything from the Supreme Court in the war in Ukraine to Pokemon and Minecraft, and will always tell you 10 things you need to know. And we're available wherever you get your podcasts. Is it game time now, Pam?

Starting point is 00:00:27 It's game time, Ryan. Let's go! Quick pause. We expanded to YouTube because we keep hearing, I needed this 20 years ago. And the next generation shouldn't have to wait. So tell the young women in your world who are scrolling and watching to subscribe to This Is Woman's Work on YouTube. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing women's work in the world today. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, we explore the multifaceted experiences of today's woman, confirming that the new definition of woman's work is whatever feels true and real and right for you. You are the decider. And that part, you being the decider, is both incredibly empowering and wildly challenging when you think about the sheer volume of decisions that we're making.

Starting point is 00:01:28 We're making big ones, like about our careers, relationships, or creating life. Smaller ones like what color to paint the wall, what to get your dog for their birthday, and whether it's acceptable to eat a block of cheese for dinner. It is, by the way. We are deciding what matters and what doesn't, what to say yes to and what to walk away from, what to do next, or whether or not it's time to stop doing the thing that you're doing right now. And that's where it can get tricky because knowing when it's time to pivot is hard. What feels obvious from the outside looking in or crystal clear with the benefit of hindsight can be a total mind fuck when you're in it. We've been raised on don't quit, push through,

Starting point is 00:02:13 never give up, and we celebrate grit like it's a moral virtue. And yes, resilience does matter, effort matters, but so does discernment. And sometimes the bravest, smartest move isn't doubling down. It's walking away from something that's draining you, shrinking you, or simply isn't meant for you. And the problem is, when you're in it, it's incredibly hard to tell the difference between staying the course and staying stuck. That line between commitment and self-betrayal can get real blurry, real fast. And let's address the other extreme, too. Pivoting can become its own form of avoidance. Change for the sake of change, motion without meaning. So how do we find that sweet spot where we're not quitting too soon, but also not staying too long? That's what we're

Starting point is 00:03:07 unpacking today. And our guest is Melissa Gonzalez, a leader in experiential design and retail strategy. She's a principal at MG2 and a shareholder at Collier's Engineering and Design. And she began her career on Wall Street before pivoting into entrepreneurship and founding the lioness group. She's the author of The Purpose Pivot, How Dynamic Leaders Put Vulnerability and Intuition Into Action, Where She explores intuition, burnout, energy, and what it really looks like to pivot with purpose instead of panic. Melissa, welcome to the show. And I'm thinking that the best place to start is with the most obvious and probably most important question, which is how do we know when it's time to pivot? I think honestly, first of all, thank you so much for having me.

Starting point is 00:03:58 And I think your body tells you, you know, and I think this leans into the power of intuition, but really being open to those messages that your intuition's telling you. So for me, the pivots I've made, it's always been a bit of just mental awareness, but also these feelings of either uneasiness. you feel unsettled, you feel a little jittery, there's just something in your body telling you, like, this might not be it, you know, and you feel this natural gravitation to other things that maybe are the first bridge just for some exploration so that you could then gut check to see, is this moment in time, you know, is this something that really is a hobby? Is this something that's a bigger change I need to make?

Starting point is 00:04:47 Yeah. So I couldn't agree more intuition that our body knows, like kind of reading the signs, for lack of a better term, but, you know, the internal signs are energy and our body. And also, I think what we consciously pay attention to is sometimes an unconscious telling of something. Having said that, I will say, I find it really difficult sometimes to distinguish between, you know, fear and excitement or something being uncomfortable because it's new versus uncomfortable because it's not meant for me. Can you give us some examples or some tips about how to distinguish it when it feels really important and also really messy? Sure. Yeah. I ask myself those questions too, right? Am I

Starting point is 00:05:37 hesitating because of discomfort? Is it, you know, and so I think you can always, you can also do that investigation on your own to just ask some of those basic questions. like, why am I having this feeling? And is this something I've seen before? Because there is a difference, right? I also write in the book about PTSD, which is a very real thing also. So sometimes things trigger you to be like, I can't do that again because you're making this association with something might not have happened in the past. And it doesn't mean it's always the accurate association that you should be making. So I think the first thing is really just having the openness to allow those feelings, to recognize them,

Starting point is 00:06:20 and then do a healthy level of challenging the why am I feeling those things. And within that, you can learn a lot, I think. Has this been seen before? Have I done that? Is it the unknown? What about the unknown is something? Does this serve me? And I think the more you understand your purpose,

Starting point is 00:06:39 which is how I landed on the title, it becomes the guiding light for a lot of those answers. The more clarity you have on what drives you, your overall, that why. You know, Simon Sinek's talked about that forever. But when you understand, like, why you do your job, not just that you do it, not just the title of it. But what about it excites you? What about it energizes you? All of those things, whether it's in your personal life, whether it's in your professional life.

Starting point is 00:07:05 The clearer you are about those things, then the easier it is for you to answer the question, like, why am I having hesitation? Maybe you're having hesitation because it's not serving that purpose. And so you're starting to have that rejection of, okay, this is busyness, not impact, or this is desire, not obligation, you know, or this is just the wrong thing. But it's that clarity that I think helps you cut through the noise and help have more clarity as you're going through that decision journey. Okay, so you use the word earlier exploration. And as you were talking through all of that, that word kept popping up for me.

Starting point is 00:07:46 I think sometimes we think of a pivot as a moment or we focus on the final decision as opposed to, as you're inviting us to do, to think of it as an exploration, a process, a purposeful decision-making process type thing. Yeah. And so what I'm hearing is there are a lot of steps that can be taken before the pivot. Sure. Yeah. Many of them internal, as you talked about, are there any external steps that we should consider, you know, like conversations to be had, opinions to be leveraged? Sure. Because, again, I go back to, I always use the expression in coaching.

Starting point is 00:08:27 It's hard to read the label from inside the bottle. And that's often how it feels when we're in this decision pivot stage, right, where it's like we're in it. And sometimes it's hard to see clearly. so external resources can be helpful, but then not pivoting too far and putting your decision in somebody else's hands. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple of aspects to that one, community and two, the dance between growth and shedding as you're evolving along the way. And I do talk about it as a process because I do think that if you put this hard line moment in time, like sometimes it is time to make that big switch, right? Like sometimes you've built it up long enough,

Starting point is 00:09:04 like we said no we're not going to use foul language so s or get off the pot kind of statement right like sometimes it's time to leak sometimes it is right but just like a diet for example right i want to be healthier i want to lose weight whatever we don't just like flip a switch tomorrow i no longer eat anything unhealthy and i'm going to have a perfect body like it doesn't happen overnight although we wish it would and this is you know no different in many ways it is it is a process life is an evolution are the variables that impact that evolve, where you're out in your life stage evolves. So maybe if you look at it, it's one year time horizon versus a five year time horizon, for example, then you could really understand how it's a process. To your point of, you know,

Starting point is 00:09:46 if you make it a singular journey, it could be really challenging to get there, right? And so in the book, pivot could be 25 degrees. It could be 180 degrees. At the end of the day, it's a pivot and mindset above all. and kind of understanding like what you're making space for, what you're prioritizing, what you're challenging, what you're letting go of. And Chimini is a really important aspect of that because it is going to sometimes need that partnership from others, that support from others, to be able to continue on that path, right? Because you're going to have self-doubt. You're going to have normal things that come up because change isn't easy. Change could be scary. Change naturally has friction to it. And not everybody's going to serve the same role in that. And some people are not going to be good

Starting point is 00:10:29 in supporting your change. So it's also stepping back and saying, okay, like, what does my community look like? There's different groups of people. Who's my 911 circle? Who are my cheerleaders? Who are my healthy challengers? And this way you also know one to go with them. Like sometimes you just need your hype person.

Starting point is 00:10:45 I just have certain friends I call up and I'm like, I just need that pep talk right now. And then I get off the phone with them. I'm like, yes, I could do anything, you know? And there's other times where I'm like, where are my blind spots? And maybe I'm going to talk to somebody different. So recognizing that, I think not every friendship or relationship is going to have the same dynamic. And then the second thing is you are going to have to evolve along the way. So you're probably going to have to shed some things in order to make space for other things.

Starting point is 00:11:13 And that's a healthy thing too. It doesn't mean that those things in your life until that stage shouldn't serve a great purpose. It doesn't mean you can't honor those things. It doesn't mean you're being a mean person. It just, you're in a different place. and maybe those, whether it's objects that you have in your life, that allow you to make space, obligations, friendships, whatever beliefs. There's a whole, you know, varying degree of what you could shed and the space that it opens up for you. But having an open-minded to that and knowing it's not a loss, it's just it's helping to make new space is part of the process.

Starting point is 00:11:48 Yeah. I want to hone in on that. I love that you said that. I think it's so important. When we think about pivoting, I think we often have the tendency to try to make the thing we're pivoting away from bad, as if it would make it easier to pivot as opposed to something doesn't need to be bad or wrong or unhealthy or toxic in order to pivot. It could just be the thing that got you here, but it won't get you there, whatever that next thing is. It could be something you're incredibly grateful for for that particular stage, but it isn't the best. thing for the next stage. I mean, we talk about shedding. I think a lot of times we try to make the thing we're shedding wrong or bad. And what I'm hearing from you is that doesn't need to be the case that we can be grateful for or happy about whatever it is that we are shedding. Yeah,

Starting point is 00:12:43 it's like, because you're in different life stages. Some of it, some of it is unhealthy things you have to let go for sure. But to your point, it's not always that. It's just when you're in college, you have certain needs. When you become a young adult, you have certain needs. When you're single and partying, you have different needs than a new parent, right? And so you're just going to have to shift in priorities. You might shedding might mean, I have to like shed going out to the club three nights a week. Like, it's just not where I'm at, you know, but I had a really good time doing that. And sometimes it's other things. But I think it's healthier to focus on at a great time with those things if you did. If they were unhealthy, then it's that's a different reason you're letting it go.

Starting point is 00:13:26 But the decisions you're making are helping you not just be where you are today, but help you get to where you want to go, which is probably a really exciting place. If you can have it with the right lens, I think it doesn't feel as bad to be able to do that because I think sometimes it comes with levels of guilt or other things that inhibit our ability to shed or let go. So with some of the more complicated things like relationships or careers as an example, I think one of the things that often comes up is we've put so much time and energy into it. And so the idea of pivoting feels really risky or scary. And also because in most cases it's not 100% good or 100% bad.

Starting point is 00:14:11 Like we'll have good days or bad days or good times or bad times or good seasons and bad seasons. What do we pay attention to or how do we? we delineate, I mean, it's probably not mathematical, but if it's 60% bad and 40% good, or if it's 70% draining our energy and 30% fueling our energy, like how, are there any, I don't know, guidelines or suggestions of how we can go through the exploration and evaluation phase a little more effectively? Yeah, I think active listening is a good thing, journaling's an effective way to kind of take stock. There's going to be things you feel in the moment and other things that are patterns. And if it gets to the stage of a pattern, then it's probably

Starting point is 00:14:53 at a more significant scale that you should really address that change, right? Because sometimes it's a one-off. There are certain variables, but other things are either bigger issues or just bigger things to take stock of. So that's number one. I think it's the listening and having that ability to assess. And then, you know, I think there's a lot of best practices we have with others that we fail to have with ourselves. That's why I wrote a whole chapter about like giving yourself grace because we could be our toughest critic with the self-talk. We could be the most negative to ourselves versus others. We could judge so easily. And so take a little bit of the from the playbook of what you would do for a friend or a loved one and others and take that approach to yourself. And that's why too, like less judgment,

Starting point is 00:15:39 know that you not, if you have a thought in the moment and if you check back a week later, a month later and there's some consistency in that, then that's probably something you should pay attention to and start to think like, okay, what could I do a little bit differently there? And then also recognizing like change takes time. That's habits are hard to break, right? They always say that. And so some of the things that you might need to change are habitual. So it's going to be an effort and celebrate the progress you make and getting there too, I think is a really important part of it because it can easily feel like, well, I'm not being successful at this. But maybe you were excited. successful 25% of the way already, and you're not even recognizing that. And so it feels like this

Starting point is 00:16:19 humongous hurdle to make change instead of celebrating that micro milestone. What did I learn from that milestone? Like, what feels different? What space did that open up for me? The more you recognize those things, too, I think the more it gives you motivation to continue on that journey of evolution. Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything. Like packing a spare stick. I like to be prepared. That's why I remember 988. Canada's suicide crisis helpline. It's good to know just in case. Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a train responder anytime.

Starting point is 00:16:59 9-88 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government in Canada. I love the perspective of thinking about it from the lens of someone else. I do that often. Like what would I want my daughter to do in this situation? Because I tend to be hardest on myself and I tend to want the best for her. And so thinking like, Like if somebody I love, admire, respect, we're in this situation, what would I tell them to do? I think that that can offer some really good perspective.

Starting point is 00:17:31 And I love that lens. Now, whether we pivot or whether we stay, there are potential costs associated with any decision that we make. Sure. How do we evaluate some of those potential costs, whether it's to pivot or to stay where we are, without letting fear run the show? So objectivity, right? And I think there's different lenses. So if you were to create a, you know, a goal sheet for yourself or some sort of grid, you know, there's a number of things that you could say like if I had a pie of happiness, like what makes up that pie? Because they're all going to have different answers. You know, for some people it's money. Some people it's their growing and learning. Some people it's their title. Different answers for different people without judging, right? Like some people are really driven by certain things. over others. So I think the first part is really you need to know what makes you happy. And then you can start to say, okay, well, are the choices I'm making fueling that? Is it stealing from that? You know, where am I feeling energized? Where am I feeling depleted? You could start journaling that as well.

Starting point is 00:18:39 There's a worksheet in the back of the book. It is called the delegation sheet. But the first part of that exercise is noticing that in your week and in your month, like write down all the things that energized you. Where did you get that dopamine fix? Where did you feel like really energetic at the end of that day. And then what were the things that depleted you? Where you just felt like, I can't believe I have to do this again. Everything about it just makes your body feel either stressed or unmotivated and all those things. And start to write those things down. See what the patterns are of those things. Some of those things are going to be out of your control and not. Like some of the things are going to be things that you could change and not be able to change.

Starting point is 00:19:18 So I think if you're in different stages of your career, those things are also going to vary, right? Of like what you could delegate or what you can simplify. If you're a manager, you could delegate more. If you don't yet have teams, then your execution of that might be just more around simplification. What can you simplify? What can you start to say no to? Things like that. And so I think at the heart of it, just like, you know, anything.

Starting point is 00:19:48 You have to know what do you consider success? And if you can understand those things, then that helps, too, with you being able to say, okay, well, it's not, it's not feeding that pie. So might I do something different? Might I make space for that? So as you were talking, I was reminded a coach many, many years ago had me do like an energy audit. And I had to track everything that I did like on my calendar for a few weeks. And if it gave me energy, if it drained, my energy or if it was neutral. And it was really fascinating to see how much of my time I was investing in things that drained my energy. And it actually helped create some clarity of what did make me happy and what I did want to be doing. So that happiness pie that you talked about, and I haven't thought about that in a really long time. It probably would be worth revisiting. Now, I know I do this. I have to imagine I'm not the only one. But some Sometimes something will be clear to me. I'll be really clear about what is giving me energy or that it is time to pivot or that I do want to stay. But the thing that pops up for me that's not on my happiness pie, but it still pops up is what will other people think. Any tips for navigating, letting go of setting aside this worry about other people's thoughts and opinions about our choices? For sure. It's so hard, especially in this

Starting point is 00:21:18 world that we live in of social media. And, you know, between FOMO, which is fueled by constant comparison, right, with just human nature of we care, right? We care. It's a natural thing to care what others think of us. But I think there's a few filters to that. One, first of all, not everybody external to us should hold the same weight, right? So for sure, a stranger should not hold the same weight as like, you know, your best friend or a family member, right? So like right there, I feel like you can make some differentiation. But the other is, is the person that theoretically is judging you because sometimes we just assume they are. And we don't even, right? Maybe they would be cheering us on. We don't even know. We're just living that catastrophic. Or more likely, they don't pay her and they're not paying

Starting point is 00:22:10 attention, right? Like, we are so worried that people will notice or that will be embarrassed or and the reality is everybody's focused on their own shit most of the time. Right. And if it's good enough friend, you probably can have the real conversation anyway with them. And if they're the right friend, they'll be supportive or help you see things you don't see. So that's number one. And the second is whether they're close to you or a stranger, I mean, are they also a model of what you want to be? Because if they're not, then why does their judgment even matter too, right? Right. So I think, you know, and that's why, too, it's important who you surround yourself with when you want that support, whether it's to see your blind spots or cheer on all those things is also who's been successful on the path that you want to be on because they're going to bring probably a more relevant perspective to helping you on your journey than somebody who's kind of arbitrarily out there theoretically making judgment. kind of a similar question, but maybe just a little bit of a different lens, is what would you say to somebody who in choosing to pivot, they're worried that they're letting people down or hurting somebody's feelings?

Starting point is 00:23:31 So, for example, if you pivot away from a relationship or away from a career, you know, I think a lot of us worry about the people were, quote, quote, leaving behind and that we're hurting them in some way or disappointing them in some way. Any tips there? Yeah, I mean, I think on average, it's a, first of all, it's like the most normal thing. And you're going to walk away from relationships for different reasons. You know, if it's a relationship where there's not a fair give and take, you're walking away from a taker who it's a, that's one reason, right? Like, you're just, this is, this is, this is holding you back from where you need to go. And it might be unintentional that they act that way, but that is the result of the dynamic. and it's the healthiest thing you can do to walk away from it,

Starting point is 00:24:18 but it doesn't mean you can't be kind about it. I think regardless of the dynamic, there could be a conversation at the end of the day when you can articulate to the other person. You care about them. You'll always be rooting them on. Sometimes you have a varying degree of impact that you could have to set them on a healthy path

Starting point is 00:24:35 before you pull back. So you can walk away, kind of feeling good about that. And I bring that up because if you're at a job that you're leaving, you know, who have you been managing? Have you positioned them for success? Can you walk away? No, and I've been a great mentor and coach to them. You know, I set them up for that promotion.

Starting point is 00:24:51 Like, they're going to have their growth trajectory. You can feel good about that. But you can still evolve to where you need to go. So I think it's just having empathy towards it, doing the right thing in that. And sometimes that means difficult conversations. But I think that they help you break away. or evolve in a way that you can feel good about in the long run. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:18 What about the person who maybe pivots too much or too often or becomes addicted to the pivot? Yeah. Any advice for, I think we often think about it from the lens of wind to pivot. But any advice for the other side of the pivoting for the sake of pivoting person? Yeah, well, because then you're asking yourself, am I pivoting or am I running, you know? And those aren't the same thing. And I think I've, over my lifetime, you know, from decades to decade, have a different perspective of that. I think in my 20s, it was much easier, right, to do it.

Starting point is 00:25:55 I didn't have the same obligations. I didn't have a husband and have a daughter. I didn't have a house. A lot of things. So it's easier to do that in your early in your career. But I think as I've gotten older, I step back and be like, okay, I'm doing this at the sacrifice of what, you know, and I'm weighing it out. Like if sometimes it's like, are you playing the long game? And I think when you're always, always evolving, that's the question. It's great to be a fast learner. A lot of the startups, right?

Starting point is 00:26:23 It's like fail fast. And if you've seen things I've been here before, this is why it won't work and all this other stuff, sometimes that's the right thing. Other times you're just running and you're not playing the long game. So I think it's really gut checking that before you make any rash decisions. Okay, my last question is maybe a two-parter, but what signals do you think we trust the most? We often hear like trust our gut, trust our intuition. How?

Starting point is 00:26:53 Of all of the different signs and signals, are there any that you think we should be paying the most attention to? Yeah. I think if you get the jitters, you should check in on that. So that's one. I mean, your body's reacting to something. And so it's either seen it before or heard it before, whatever. So I think that's one. And I think the more in tune you just are with yourself, it becomes a little bit intuitive

Starting point is 00:27:21 to be able to know what to listen to. I've seen this before. I've done that before. This dynamics happened before. Not in a way that you are allowing yourself to be trapped by elements of PTSD, for example, right? But more just life experience. And I think the more life you live, the more you can kind of connect those dots of how do you have a healthier response to some of the signals that you're getting.

Starting point is 00:27:52 Right. Okay. My last question is sort of a for somebody who's listening and they're thinking about pivoting or there is this gut instinct that there is a pivot in the future. any recommendations of where to start? Like, what do we do to begin this exploration phase? Yeah, I think definitely ask yourself, take stock of how you're feeling, do the energy check-in.

Starting point is 00:28:20 I think that's important. And then I think, as you think through your pivot, there is an exploration, especially from a professional standpoint. Some of it might be, I need to make space for new hobbies, and some of it's like, I really want this to be my job.

Starting point is 00:28:33 And those are not the same thing either. So that's why it is good, I think, to let it be a little bit of a process. Like give yourself a time period, three months, six months, whatever you think makes sense. And create some milestones and make sure you're checking in at those key milestones. Like, I've tested out X amount of things. How do I feel about that? Is this a hobby? Is this a job?

Starting point is 00:28:57 Is this a big change? Is the mindset shift? And what I want to get out of life or what my purpose is. can be achieved where I am, but my viewpoint or how I'm spending my time within what I, where I am is going to satisfy that. Or is it a bigger change? Because I think a lot of the times people think pivot means like I have to, everything has to just, I need to cut the cord on everything and I have to change everything. And that's big. That's a big step to take. And sometimes that is the answer. But I do think oftentimes it's not the answer too. So give yourself a timeline,

Starting point is 00:29:34 create milestones, check in with them, go back to, you know, what are the things that energize me? Is that tied to my purpose? Because I do think that allows you to make a healthier filter through your evaluation process. Yeah. And I'll add one more thing. Get the book. The purpose of it. Right?

Starting point is 00:29:54 I'm assuming that could be a really helpful tool for any one of us. And I'll help guide us through all the things that you just said, Melissa, and also this internal and external exploration that we get to go through. So the book, again, is called The Purpose Pivot. You can also find more about Melissa and all of her work on her website, Melissa Gonzalez.com, and we'll put all the other ways to find and follow Melissa in show notes. Melissa, thank you for this conversation for helping us navigate through this really hard when you're in it, question of like, how do I know when it's time to pivot? So I appreciate you. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, my pleasure. Okay, friend, if there's one thing we hope you walk away with,

Starting point is 00:30:35 it's this. Pivoting isn't failure and staying isn't virtue. Neither is inherently brave or weak or right or wrong. The work is discernment, listening to your energy, paying attention to what is expanding you versus what's costing you, and trusting that your intuition doesn't need to scream to be valid. Sometimes it just nudges repeatedly until you finally listen. And you don't need certainty to pivot. You don't need permission to change your mind and you don't need to justify your decision to anyone who isn't living your life or carrying the consequences of your choices. Whether you're staying the course, making a small adjustment, or walking away entirely,

Starting point is 00:31:18 the goal isn't to get it right. The goal is to stay in relationship with yourself as you decide. Because choosing with intention, honoring your energy, and trusting your self, enough to pivot when it's time all of that is woman's work

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Pivot With Purpose: How to Know When It’s Time to Stay, Shift, or Walk Away with Melissa Gonzalez | 393

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