This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The 100-Year Life: Reinventing Your Career, Work & What Comes Next with Lynda Gratton | 433

Starting point is 00:00:00 Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. Okay, when I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice. I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community. Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime. I wonder if my out of office has a forever set up.

Starting point is 00:00:30 An IG Private Wealth Advisor creates the clarity you need with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IDPrivatewealth.com. If you love the show, the best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast, where we choose to cover a pretty wide range of topics in our questions. to redefine what it means to be doing women's work in the world today. But our primary filter is pretty simple.

Starting point is 00:01:15 Does this matter to women right now? And while we believe that every topic we cover matters, that doesn't mean that every episode feels personally relevant to every one of us at the exact moment we release it. But this one? Oh, this one is for me. I just turned 50 and I've already made four pretty dramatic career pivots. I recently returned from a sabbatical, and I find myself asking a question that I imagine many of you are asking to. What's next for me?

Starting point is 00:01:47 Because we're living longer, potentially 100 plus year lives. And the old script of learn, work in one career, then retire is at the very least outdated. Especially when you consider that many of us have decades of working life still ahead of us. decades, which is either incredibly exciting or mildly horrifying depending on how you feel about your inbox and your coworkers. And here's the problem. We've been taught to think about our lives and careers like it's one big upward climb. We build, achieve, accumulate, get promoted, reach some mythical peak for many of us while simultaneously raising children, maintaining friendships, exercising, drinking enough water, keeping our marriages interesting, remembering everyone's

Starting point is 00:02:32 birthdays and figuring out what the fuck is happening to our hormones. And then sometime around midlife, the story tells us that then we shift toward decline. Yeah, no, I don't subscribe to that narrative that it's all downhill from here. Because from where I'm standing, I'm just getting better. I'm more comfortable in my own skin. I know myself better and trust myself more. I have significantly less interest in what everyone else thinks, which frankly may be one of the greatest benefits of aging and someone should figure out how to bottle and sell that. So if you buy into this with me for just one second, then we're calling bullshit on the idea that our best years are behind us and that we're getting passionately curious about what we get to do with all of the life that's still in

Starting point is 00:03:22 front of us. And that's the conversation I've been waiting to have, which is why I'm so excited to have Linda Grattan as our guest. Linda is one of the world's foremost thought leaders on the future of work, a professor of management practice at London Business School, and the author of 11 books that have sold more than a million copies worldwide. Her newest book, Living the Hundred Year Life, how to build a career that lasts and a life you love, challenges the old career script and explores how we can build and rebuild work and life across a much longer time. timeline. So Linda, welcome to This is Woman's Work. And I want to start by challenging something I clearly have feelings about. My question is, is it actually all downhill from midlife? Or have we

Starting point is 00:04:09 gotten that completely wrong? What does your research tell us? Oh, we have gotten it so completely wrong, Nicole. I mean, gosh, I'm 71. I certainly would not want to think that this has all been downhill. You know, I think you said earlier, and I totally agree with you, that we see life often as a a ladder, you know, that we're climbing up, lots of energy. We don't really have to think about it because it's just one rung after another. But in my new book, Living the Hundred Year Live, I'm thinking it more as a weave. And I think of us as weavers. And we're weaving our lives right the way through, maybe to a hundred years. And every single year has possibilities, patterns that we're building, things that we're strengthening, perhaps others that we're

Starting point is 00:04:52 letting become a little bit more fragile. And so for me, particularly, for women's work, I speak, of course, as a woman. That's just the metaphor of the weaver, I think, is incredibly optimistic. I love that. Being a weaver instead of a climber, it feels more exciting, but also more practical to what we're actually doing. So when we think of this sort of outdated script, the climb, the one rung after the other, I guess where did that come from? Who wrote it? Why is this negative towards us generally, especially as women? Like, what are your thoughts about the script as it's been up to this point? Well, that's a marvelous question, Nicole. And of course, the script, which is the ladder script, but also the three stages, you know, full-time education,

Starting point is 00:05:41 full-time work, full-time retirement, was written primarily by men for men. And the reason it was written is that corporations were a place that you went into. It was sort of like a parent-child thing. You know, the organization was that your parent, you were the child, it said, hey, you work hard, you do this, you'll move up. Women, and I count myself here, always struggled with that because the alternative, which is multi-stage, women always sort of had naturally. You know, I know for myself, I made all sorts of changes in my life because I became a mum, because I wanted to do lots of other things.

Starting point is 00:06:16 I'm a grandmother now. It's changing again. So I think women always had to think about what I, I would call a multi-stage life. And a multi-stage life is where you come in and out of things like you've done, Nicole, with your sabbatical. That's part of having a multi-stage life because we say, oh, my goodness, I've had a three-month sabbatical. But honestly, so many kids now are having gap years at the age of 18. You've just had a very short gap here, Nicole.

Starting point is 00:06:43 Yeah. And it does actually feel like that. And it's interesting, I think wrapping my head around it was way harder than the actual doing of it because it's so contrary to, I think, what we've been sold and told all of our lives. You know, for me, it's so on the button because when you think about weaving a life, you have to say, well, what is it? I'm weaving. So I would say that there were eight threads that were all weaving. Four of them about being productive. That's really important for women, because, you know, we want to go back into the workforce. We want to have skills and relationships

Starting point is 00:07:18 that work. But the other are to do with what I would call nurturing ourselves. Some of them, intimacy and friendship are about nurturing our relationships, but two of them, adventure and calm, are about nurturing our energy and our energy sources. And, Nicole, what you did with that sabbatical is you strengthened your thread of adventure. I don't know what you did, but I bet it was exciting. And secondly, you gave yourself time to be calm, I would imagine. And that combination of having adventure, being calm, is actually really one of the most foundational threads that any of us have in our life. And the reason why it's so important you did that, Nicole, is because my research has shown that the thread that most of us find the most fragile is the thread of calm.

Starting point is 00:08:11 And, you know, calm, relaxing ourselves in whatever way we do it and we do it in all sorts of very highly individual ways is so, is such an asset to us because, you know, Nicole, we were talking earlier about that, you know, ascending the ladder. Well, the thing about ascending the ladder is that everybody's also ascending it. And so either you're going up or you're going out, but you don't really have to think about it yourself. The exciting thing about long working lives is you've really got to think about it for yourself. I mean, like you had to decide whether to have a sabbatical or not. That was a pretty courageous thing to do. And there's people like you all over the world, Nicole, who are just showing what this 100 year could look like. Now, that requires reflective time. It requires

Starting point is 00:08:57 personal agency. And that's why building calm into your life is so important if you want to be the driver of your life. And if you don't want your life just to be parent-child with your organization, but rather adult to adult. Okay, I could ask one million questions, but I want to hone in on these eight threads. Could you tell us what they are? I want to talk about com a little bit more, but can you just tell us the eight threads that you talk about in your book and then let's dig a little deeper? Yeah, sure. Well, four of the threads are about what helps you to stay productive. Because one of the things that I realized, and in my book living the 100-year life, I do bring in different people. And one of them is a woman in her early 30s. She's looked after a kid. She's had part-time work.

Starting point is 00:09:45 she's just got divorced. She'd like to go back to work now, but it's actually really struggling because she doesn't have some of the skills and the contacts and the networks. And so, you know, building those productivity threads are really important. And they're about the skills,

Starting point is 00:10:01 i.e. mastery, what you're good at, building what you're good at through practice and getting better. They are knowing, really understanding yourself, understanding the world. They are learning to work with others because so much of the value we create at work isn't just about ourselves. It's about how we work with our colleagues and our team members. And then the fourth of productivity thread I call amplification, which is about how do you work

Starting point is 00:10:26 with AI? What do you do with that? So those, Nicole, are the four productivity threads. Okay. And then you said that the others are more about nurturing ourselves, adventure, calm, what are the other two? Well, the others. So the thing about productivity is that if you don't have those threads relatively strong, your life becomes pretty fragile, you know, because you don't have the skills to get into the workforce, to get a job. And so they're really important. But if you don't have the nurture threads, then you burn out. And actually, that's just as big a problem. So what are those nurture threads? Well, two of them are about how we build relationships of the people we love, be they, our intimate relationships with

Starting point is 00:11:14 our partners or our kids or our parents, but also our friendships because we know that friendship, well, women have always known this, haven't they, Nicol, that friends are so important. They turn out to be really important to long working lives. And then two of them are about how we build and sustain our sort of energy, both in terms of having adventures, going out and do it, doing exciting things, having things we could tell each other about. And some of them are about being calm, which is to say, how do we find ways of sort of soothing ourselves, relaxing ourselves? And that I think is, well, certainly the research that I'm doing right now is the thread that many people say, I'm just not spending enough time on that. And I know for lots of women,

Starting point is 00:12:00 it's the case. Yeah. I think that if you polled women and asked if they wanted a little bit more calm in their life. You get a pretty strong and emphatic yes, right? And as you said earlier, it's the thread that we tend to neglect. How do we make our desire line up with our action? How do we create more calm? You said this earlier. It's not one size fits all. There's a vast many ways to do that, but what might be some simple ways and what could this look like in our lives? Well, I wrote a really nice piece actually called the calm minority because what I found is that although lots of us really struggled to have our thread of calm strong in the weave of our life, guess what? There are people, men and women, who have calm as a strong thread. So I went back to them as you're saying,

Starting point is 00:12:52 Nick on said, how do you do it? And there was three things that they did and I think they're useful for all of us to think about. Some of them actually inherited a calm role model. So they were saying things like, you know, I remember my grandmother. She seemed to be very calm. So the first thing I'd say is think about your background and ask yourself, is there anyone you know in your family history that was calm? And could you learn anything from watching them and seeing how they did it? Second thing is calm is a personality trait to a certain extent.

Starting point is 00:13:27 So some people are just born, slightly calmer than others. And so you have to really lean into your own character and ask yourself, you know, what could I do? So, for example, I'm quite introverted. Most writers are. And so for me, walking on my own, without headphones, certainly not listening to audio books, although I know we love audiobooks, that for me is what makes me calm. So we've each got to think about our character and say, you know, what makes me calm? My son, for example, is, you know, as a runner. So he gets very calm by running every morning or swimming every morning. And then the third thing that we noticed about the calm, minority is that they really did stuff at work to help them be calm. Now, you might say, well, I don't have enough time to do that. But here's something I heard last week. I had a female CEO, a female senior executive coming into my class at London Business School and teaching. And she said, you know, for me, calm is about running. And so I asked my assistant to put two

Starting point is 00:14:36 running sessions into my diary every single week. And that's two hours twice a week. And I said to the team, you know, to my program, you know, you think that you can't put time in, but she's actually doing a massive job and she's putting time in. So honestly, Nicole, it's about prioritizing ourselves and our future self. And one thing that your future self is going to ask you is it's going to say, please don't make me very stressed. Please don't make me so, you know, my health begins to suffer. And of course, some women suffer from that because they're just so stressed. So it's for you, and this is to do with personal agency, to say to yourself, this is very important. And I'm going to do something. Just a small action every week. It could be just, I'm going to walk

Starting point is 00:15:25 for an hour every once a week, or I'm going to go running or whatever it is you do, you need to put it into your diary so that it becomes a priority because the interesting thing about weaving a life is we weave it day by day in terms of the decisions we make about how to spend our time. Having a teenager who's becoming more independent is both a blessing and a curse. I want her to have freedom and privacy, but I also want to know she's okay without turning into a full-time stalker. And that's what I like about Hey Polo. It's a family, safety app built around consent. Everyone controls what they share with whom and for how long, whether that's an exact location, general area, or even private mode. Because trust still matters,

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Starting point is 00:17:11 The end of jobs, or the end of human struggle. We see the endless funds fueling the AI hype. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. Okay, when I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice. I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community. Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime. I wonder if my head of office has a forever setting.

Starting point is 00:17:42 An IG Private Wealth Advisor creates the clarity you need with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IGPrivatewealth.com. So it's funny, I do this too, so I'm going to lump my mind. in here. We, you know, we often say we don't have time for the things that we know are good for us, but what we really don't have time for is burning out. Yeah. And that's often what we end up creating. My husband is really very good at this. He's a very disciplined person. And so he works out or exercises every single day because it gives him that sense of calm and the energy. He does five or 10

Starting point is 00:18:27 minute meditations throughout the day in his work day so that he has the energy and the calm and the connection that he wants in his working day. And I think sometimes it's just convincing ourselves that this time, and I'm going to put in air quotes, out makes us better for when we're in. And when we skip it, we're doing everything when we're in at a less effective or less productive or less connected way than we could be doing it if we just gave ourselves that permission. Yes, I absolutely agree. And can I make a very small suggestion to everyone who's listening today, which I think might just give you a little bit of a push? I've done a very, very good, because I'm a psychologist, diagnostic that helps you to decide where you are on each one of the threads.

Starting point is 00:19:22 It takes 15 minutes, max. It's on my website. And that will really give you, I think, an opportunity to sit back, have a cup of coffee and think to myself, think to yourself, what am I going to do to invest in strengthening my threads? And if Calm is one of your weak threads, take a look at some of the actions that I've written that will come through on the diagnostic just to see what that means. It's free and available to everyone and thousands of people have already completed it. So I'm building up some great data. Okay, so the website is Living the Hundred Year Life.com. We'll put the link to that and all the other ways to find and follow Linda in show notes.

Starting point is 00:20:04 But you mentioned earlier, and I think you phrased it as like we all know that workplace friendship is important. And I'll be transparent that in my 20s. I don't think I valued that, maybe even to my early 30s, but more specifically, work friendship with other women. I discounted it. I devalued it. And I don't know if that's happening as much today as I did it back then. But I do see that pop up a lot. Like sometimes women will say, especially in the workplace, like, oh, I just connect better with the men. As it relates to weaving and these threads and living the hundred year life and the different ways that we approach midlife and the stages that we go through, what is the value of making work friendships with other

Starting point is 00:20:52 women? Why is this so important? Well, it's one of the strongest threads. And I know this from my friend Robert Walzinger, who is the, who heads up the Harvard adult development research, which has been looking at people from the very beginning of their life, well, at beginning of their adult life right the way through their life. And so they've got, they've been talking to this group of people every year for the whole of their life. And one of the questions that Robert asked them or his and the team of researchers, because they've been following them for 80 years, not just him, but others, is, you know, what made a difference to their life? And guess what, Nicole, the number one thing was friendship. And what I say to my MBA students who came to London Business School

Starting point is 00:21:40 or Stanford or Harvard, hoping to get probably a better paid job, is a long friendship is something that money can't buy. Now, I've been really busy right the way through my life. So mastery has always been my strongest thread. I'm a writer and I'm a teacher. My strongest thread is not friendship. However, I have a 60-year-old friendship, which we celebrated recently. And that's because somebody who was at school with me, Shirley Kramer, is really good at friendship. It's her strongest thread. And she kept friends with me right the way through my life. And I cannot begin to tell you what that means to me.

Starting point is 00:22:23 So putting time aside. And by the way, the research and quite a lot of research is interesting on this because you think, I'm going to have to spend ages going on holiday with all these people. No, you don't. It's really eight minutes a week on the telephone. or just, you know, sing people occasionally because we women are busy. We don't have a lot of time.

Starting point is 00:22:41 But Shirley and I have always made time. And if you're interested in hearing Shirley and I talk about our 60-year friendship, the podcast, Live Thread, she's one of my, with Robert, she's my guest. So you can hear all about how we met all those years back. Friendship at work, of course, is a lot more difficult, Nicole. And I get that because, you know, when it's a friend outside of work, there's no power relationship. But when it's a friend inside of work, then, you know, they could become your boss.

Starting point is 00:23:10 They might be your competitor. So let's not, you know, let's realize that this is tricky. But that's not a reason not to do it. And I asked Robert this very same question, Robert, what does it mean to have a friend at work? And he said, you've got to build, to build friendship, you've got to build trust. And you never build trust really quickly. you build it over time. So he said, for example, if there's somebody around that you find interesting, just have a chat with them. And then if they're more interesting, have a cup of coffee with them.

Starting point is 00:23:45 And then, and this was his good idea, say something to them which is important but wouldn't actually destroy you if everybody heard about it and just see what happens. And secondly, he said, watch what they say about other people. Because if they're, you know, dishing the dirt on everybody else, they're going to dish the dirt on you. So it's really about building trust. And actually also having an open conversation

Starting point is 00:24:14 because there are times I've certainly had girlfriends where either they or I then become their boss at a period. And that's just a really straightforward adult-to-adult conversation about how you manage that. But it's very, very important to eye. to our lives. Yeah, great advice. I love the stages of building that trust too. I think oftentimes we say, you know, it takes trust and it takes time, but actually knowing how to do that is super helpful. In your book, you ask readers to think about three versions of our future self, the self you hope

Starting point is 00:24:51 for, the self you expect and the self you fear. Just imagine for a moment that you're weaving your life. And if I were to put the loom in front of you, you would see the weave that you've already done, all those hours that you've invested in doing whatever you did. Okay. And that takes you to now. So that's the past. And now we've got this minute in time. Nicole, you and I are both investing a couple of hours today in this podcast. That's the investment we made. And then we've got our future. The challenge with futures when you're human is that humans are really. not very good at doing something which would be good for their future self, but not good for themselves right now. I know that because for lunch, I just had a proffiterol. Now, I know my future self is going to say to me, Linda, hang on, no more, but I did. So actually having a picture of your future self is really, really important. So here's, I have a picture of my future self. So although I did eat the proffiterol, I am doing Pilates. I'm three times a week at the most. moment because I do not want my future self to be able, you know, to walk very well or fall over.

Starting point is 00:26:06 So the future self I fear, which is somebody who's fallen over, broken their hip and can't move very well. And we've probably all got moms, many of us have got moms for whom that happened. That's my feared future self. And it actually is quite motivating for me. It certainly gets me to do Pilates three times a week, even though I find it pretty tough. So that's our future self. the hoped for self is often sort of quite hard for us to imagine because we don't really know, you know, what our future will be. But the hope for yourself is a thing that keeps you, you know, sort of positive and uplifted about your future. So for me, you know, my hoped for self would be, had been somebody who could make a difference to people's lives in terms of helping them to think about

Starting point is 00:26:52 living longer. And that still is a motivator for me. And also, you know, I had kids when I was quite old. I didn't know if I'd ever see my grandchildren and one of them's just been born. So a future self for me was also that I could perhaps be a grandparent and keep, you know, so I think this notion of the future self standing by you and asking you, what would you want from me? I think that's really important because, you know, with regard to friendship as we were speaking earlier, your future self might say to you, please do not leave me. at the age of 80 with no friends. And one of the reasons that happens is because all your friends are the same age.

Starting point is 00:27:38 And so they all start getting ill together. So, you know, if you want to have friends in your 80s, you need to be making friends now that are at least 20 years younger than you, if not 30, if not 40. That's a great investment. And your future self, when it's sitting at the age of 80, And there's somebody coming in who's 40 or 50 will be so happy that you did that. You know, it's interesting as you were saying that.

Starting point is 00:28:05 I was thinking, what is my future self, the self that I fear? And the one thing that popped into my head was I fear having a lot of regrets. I fear sitting in my older age and having a long list of things I wish I would have done or risks I would have taken. And some of that is motivating. And I think why I do things like the sabbatical, I don't want to have that regret. What about the self you expect? What does that mean? You know, interesting, Nicole, that's the most difficult for most of us to describe.

Starting point is 00:28:42 You know, we can hope for something. We can then be frightened of other things. But actually to say, this is what I expect. That's pretty hard. And that's why I always say to people, now, you know, don't worry about planning for the future. If you haven't got an expected self, that's fine. Most of us haven't. But what you need to do is if you can keep those threads relatively strong, it means that you've got enough resilience to start experimenting and taking small

Starting point is 00:29:13 actions. And I think what's really sort of wonderful about the ideas of the book is that It's not doing something unbelievably different tomorrow. It's about what are the small things that you could do right now to strengthen one of those threads? So we've talked about calm, for example. You know, how do you strengthen calm? Well, tomorrow you put time into your diary to do whatever you think is going to work best with your character. You know, how do I strengthen the one of amplification? Well, tomorrow you experiment with one large language model.

Starting point is 00:29:48 So, you know, these are some of the ways that you can do that. My last question is around where you end your book with, which is with a challenge, and you challenge us to choose a thread, make a promise, take one step. For our listener, who may feel stuck or unsure or uncertain, what would be the thread that you would tell her to start with? I think that's a very difficult thing to do because we each have different threads in terms of strength. So my first action would be to do the diagnostic, because once you've done the diagnostic, you'll know which thread is your most fragile thread.

Starting point is 00:30:27 So you can just say, okay, what could I do to strengthen that? So that would be auditing those eight threads would be my first piece of advice, and then just pick one. You don't need to do all of them. None of us have these incredibly balanced lives. But just pick one thread that you think is important. And then just do one small experiment or one small action. that could help you to strengthen that thread.

Starting point is 00:30:52 And the other idea I think, which comes back to Nicole, your decision to take a sabbatical, I'm not suggesting we should all take a sabbatical. But certainly, they are amazing things, but certainly put a small piece of your retirement into next week. So take some other time that you were thinking about retiring and move it into next week and see what you could do with that. So that would be, those would be my pieces of it.

Starting point is 00:31:17 And by the way, you know, I loved writing those stories. And I think that your readers are going to absolutely love them. Quite a number of them were about my mom and how she brought us up, which I know has resonated so much with women as they think about their own role models, their moms and their grandmothers. In my case, my great-grandmother, it turns out I come from a long line of washing women. So I'm always happiest with my hands in hot water, to make washing things. Interesting. Yeah. Well, and also those stories can help us think about how we want to role model as well. So I was going to say one of those action steps that I would encourage is to go get the book. Again, it's called Living the Hundred Year Life Your Life. It's available on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Let's keep our local bookstores in business. And we put the website for the diagnostic that Linda mentioned in show notes. And of course, you can check out the Life Threads podcast as well. Linda, thank you so much for being our guest and for, and

Starting point is 00:32:16 encouraging us to weave a life we're excited about now and for the future. And thank you for being our guest. Thank you. Thank you so much, Nicole. Thank you. My pleasure. Okay, friend, maybe the best news about living a longer life is that we have more time than we think to get it right. More time to change direction, to want something different, to redefine success, to reinvent ourselves, start over, or decide that something we once wanted doesn't fit anymore. A longer life doesn't mean that we have to keep doing the same thing for longer. It means we have more life to work with. So if you're asking like I am, what's next for me?

Starting point is 00:32:55 Maybe it's okay that we don't totally know the answer. Maybe it's something we get to keep figuring out, weaving and choosing as we go. We get to decide what we want to create with all of this life that's still in front of us. And that is woman's work. where some see heroes and others see egos Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes

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This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The 100-Year Life: Reinventing Your Career, Work & What Comes Next with Lynda Gratton | 433

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