This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The Art of Pacing: Why Burnout Isn’t a Badge of Honor with Elizabeth Svoboda | 419

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Starting point is 00:01:09 Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing women's work in the world today. And part of that work, the part the rise and grind evangelists don't put in their Instagram captions is figuring out how. how to actually, honestly, sustain yourself while you're doing it.

Starting point is 00:01:47 Because I don't care how dialed in your morning routine is or how many days you're into whatever punishing challenge is trending right now or how optimized your schedule or life looks. It might look great in a post, but none of that is actually going to save you. But pacing might. And in full transparency, when I hear the word pacing, the first thing that comes to mind is me anxiously walking back and forth while overthinking or possibly catastrophizing. So if that's what we're talking about today, I have mastered that. I mean,

Starting point is 00:02:18 full expert status. But I doubt that's what our guest is talking about. So if we're talking about the kind of pacing that sustains ambition without burning you out, well, then, friend, I have a lot to learn. And apparently, so does most of the modern world. Because here's what I know about women who are ambitious, driven, and who get things done. We don't have a problem with effort. We have a problem with modulation. We go hard until we can't, and then we crash, recover just enough to feel guilty about stopping, and then do it all over again. We wear exhaustion and even burnout like a badge of honor. We've been told that 110% is the baseline. Rest is a reward you definitely haven't earned yet, and slowing down is really just the same thing as falling behind. We've been sold the idea that

Starting point is 00:03:08 the answer is always more discipline, more structure, more optimizing, when really, we just need to get better at reading the moment, at knowing when to push, when to hold, and when stopping is the strategy. Because the alternative, the endless sprint followed by a full collapse, it isn't strength. It's just a more popular way to break yourself. What if there is a an option between full throttle and full meltdown. Well, according to science, elite athletes, and today's guest, there is, and it's called pacing. Elizabeth's Faboda is the award-winning writer, contributor to the New York Times Scientific American Psychology Today and many others and is the author of The Art of Pacing, which based on everything I just said, I clearly need to read many,

Starting point is 00:03:57 many, many times and many years ago. So, Elizabeth, welcome to the show. And fair warning, every question I'm about to ask comes with a personal agenda. So here's where I'd like to start. Your book is built around this idea that most of us are sort of oscillating between overdoing it and like checking out completely.

Starting point is 00:04:15 So my question is, why is a sustainable middle ground so hard to find? And why does it feel like modern life seems almost designed to keep us away from that middle ground? Yeah, first of all, thank you so much for having me today, Nicole, and this is a topic that is very personal and very close to my heart, which is why I plunged into writing this book in the first place. But yeah, I think a lot of us identify with this ping ponging back and forth between going right to the wall to get done what we have to get done and then collapsing because we basically have to. We've exhausted all our reserves. And that becomes a cycle that repeats itself. And that is really fueled from our earliest years. We, for better or worse, we live in a society that rewards over-exerting ourselves. Many of us from childhood, we are told we need to work harder, give 110 percent, put it all on the line, whatever phrase

Starting point is 00:05:19 have you, just written into the structure of our language, really. And most of us never learn strategies for dialing back. I know for me, I was very much an overachiever when I was in school. I loaded up with the 10 AP courses because I got a lot of praise for doing that. And I felt like it was what people expected me to do. But the interesting thing is I was crashing out. Like at the very moment, I thought it was being most productive and really hitting my peak. By the time I got to senior year, had the worst bout of senioritis you can even imagine. And the irony was that I was up for an art award at our end of your assembly. And at that time, I think I had around a 50% average in my art class because I had just stopped doing anything. And that was just a reflection of

Starting point is 00:06:15 the level of burnout that I had allowed myself to reach in the name of getting to these heights that everybody said, we're going to be so great. So those warning signals were cropping up early, but at that point, I didn't take them for what they were. I just kind of kept doing that oscillation between the pushing myself too hard and the collapsing in the wake of that. Well, I think almost all of us can relate this. I'm dialed in. I'm productive and efficient and all of that. And then it gets to a point where you want to burn it all to the ground. And it's an awareness, There are signs that lead up to this. Like if we're paying attention, we can know that we're headed toward burnout.

Starting point is 00:06:58 But how dismissive we've become of those signs as if there's something wrong with us for needing a break or needing to slow down or needing to pay attention to our pace and all that. So one of the things that really stood out to me is you reference elite athletes. And I think elite athletes often get used the most when it comes to pushing yourself to the maximum at all times. Like you think about how hard they're working every day. They're pushing their physical and mental capabilities to the absolute limit. So talk to us about what we can learn about pacing, about slowing down, about taking breaks and rest and all that from elite athletes. Because I think it's not what we often think about. Yes.

Starting point is 00:07:44 that that's absolutely right. And spending time with elite athletes really upended a lot of my conceptions about what their lives are like. I think a lot of us have this image in our minds of the Olympic athlete who's toiling like from sunup to sum down trying to reach their goals because conventional wisdom says if you want to be on that world level, you are just pushing yourself to the absolute limit all the time. I've found out that. in many sports, at least, that is very much not the reality. For instance, I spent a day with middle distance runner, Ajay Wilson, who is an amazing Olympic athlete from the U.S.

Starting point is 00:08:27 She's been a world champion in the 800 meters. And I just, as I spent the day with her, I was watching her training rhythm unfold. And so what I found out was she basically has one main practice for the day during the point in the season when she's training up for bigger races. That training period lasts about two hours, and she's working extremely hard during those two hours. She gets to the track at maybe 10, 10.30 in the morning. She does these very intensive bouts of sprinting.

Starting point is 00:09:04 She'll do like a set of four or five sprints, and then she'll take what she calls these micro breaks in between. She'll just rest against the fence or take a few by two. of an apple or something. And all the while, she has her coach guiding her in this. And they are kind of having discussions about how tired are you feeling, how much more do you think you can handle, and revising the plan sort of accordingly as they go along. So the amount of flexibility that goes into this, I think people would be very surprised by too. It's not you make the schedule the night before and you do not deviate from the plan. It's very fluid. It's

Starting point is 00:09:44 very based on what are my body's demands right now. What do I think I can do? What do I think I can't do? So she does that for two hours. And then she'll go out, grab a bite of lunch. And I asked her at one point, well, what do you do when you have free time? Like when you're done training for the day, like, do you have hobbies? Do you have other things that you like to do? And she kind of laughed. and she was like, honestly, I spend almost all of the afternoon napping by the time that I am done with my practice for the day, my body is depleted enough that I know I need to give myself, could be three or four hours to recover. And a lot of people might look at that and say, wow, does she really need that much time? Isn't she being like self-indulgent? And it can look like that from the vantage point. of the way our culture looks at work and rest, right?

Starting point is 00:10:42 But this approach that Ajae uses, this is the very thing that has allowed her to be at her peak athletically for more than 10 years. And I think especially as she's gotten into her 30s and is a little bit older than most top-level runners, conserving her energy, conserving her body becomes all the more critical. And she's also learned through very difficult

Starting point is 00:11:08 experience, what happens if she doesn't do that? What happens if she tries to surpass her own physical limits? Well, she ends up with a big injury right before the most important race of the season. So, yeah, you just learn through very visceral experience if you're an athlete to respect those limits. And I think we in our daily work and the daily things that we're involved in, we do not respect goes limits nearly as well. And we might see the consequences in different ways, but they are going to show up. Yeah. So this could be recency bias because my husband just ran the Boston marathon. And so when I think of pacing, I often thinking of it under the lens of running, again, because of that recency bias. And you talk about ways that you see people going out too fast,

Starting point is 00:11:59 which, again, I think is a strategy with running, right? You need to pace yourself when you're going long distances. So if you could introduce us to this concept of pacing and how it plays out in our lives when we're not running. Right. Yeah, that's a great question. I think before we can go really deep into pacing, it makes sense to define it. And the way that I think about it is it means being deliberate about how you manage your energy on different time scales. So it could be pacing yourself over the course of a day, over the course of a week or a month, or for the longest view, maybe over the course of a career. But I think the common denominator and all of that, no matter what time scale you're looking at, is just being able to notice where you are,

Starting point is 00:12:52 define where you want ahead, and then manage your energy so that you actually end up where you want to be. And when you're pacing yourself towards something like a marathon run, for example, that that has to be done by a specific date. So sometimes the finish line is clearer than in other cases. But I think you need to have a purpose. You need to have something that you're holding up is this is what I'm pacing myself toward. Because if you don't have that, you can have, I think, the best granular level pacing tactics. You can take all your micro breaks. you can organize your work so that you're doing it at the times of day that you tend to feel most energetic. You can do all of that. But if you haven't set up, this is where I'm headed

Starting point is 00:13:43 and why, I think all the rest of that stuff sort of falls away. So to me, the foundation of any good pacing plan or pacing approach is to know where you're headed. And ideally to be excited about where you're headed or that you're making a contribution. I think we hear about this maybe a little bit more on a daily basis, as you mentioned, micro breaks or managing energy throughout your day, that type of thing. I'm curious if you have some examples about how we might pace ourselves in our careers or in our weeks. This is a little bit of a new concept of pacing outside of just the day to day or like some big, crazy long-term goal, like five years for now? Yeah, I think, let's say you do have that goal or that big meeting that's a month away

Starting point is 00:14:35 and you want to make sure that you're ready in time. For me, I kind of get in front of my calendar and I'm like, how do I create weight points for myself the same way a long-distance runner might create wavepoints in their training plan. Like if you're a runner and you're six weeks out from a marathon, on maybe you want to get up to running a certain number of miles. Like you want to make sure that you can run 20 miles four or five weeks before the race because if you're not at that waypoint, it's going to be really, really difficult to get further than that.

Starting point is 00:15:10 So it's hard to have a hard and fast guideline for how to do this because everything that you're pacing yourself toward is so unique to that situation and that goal that you're trying to face. but I think it's important not to be too hyper-granular about it either. I've certainly tried the approach of planning exactly what I'm going to do on each day, leading up to this thing that's a month from now, and all of that almost always goes by the wayside. It's like, for me, the more granular I get,

Starting point is 00:15:44 the more brittle that entire pacing plan becomes, because inevitably something is going to come up. there's going to be some kind of family crisis. Of course, as women, we're managing so many different spheres of our lives that that almost increases the probability that something like that is going to come up, throw a wrench in the works, and suddenly your carefully made month-long plan is blown to smithereens. So I prefer to be a little bit more fluid in my day-to-day approach and kind of hit those bigger sub-goals.

Starting point is 00:16:24 Maybe I, you know, this week, I want to make sure I have the outline totally done for this presentation. Next week, I'm going to have like at least two run-throughs of this presentation with my co-presenter. And so when you have those big picture things, everything else becomes easier because it can sort of flow around whatever interruptions, whatever unexpected work stuff, whatever comes up in the midst of that. And so I would just encourage people if you have tried the approach of like every 15 minute increment time planning calendar and you feel good about yourself if you filled in every single block, I would encourage you to throw that away to just put that by the wayside because I have tried.

Starting point is 00:17:10 And no matter how much or how much color coding I do or how much I try to fill in every single square, it immediately ends up getting blown up with the technology. of life that I lead with kids, with work, with travel, just everything that needs to get done. So I think just like an athlete, we need to be fluid in our approach. We need to check in with ourselves off and like, how am I doing on this? Am I feeling too stressed out on this? Can I give myself an extra day next week to finish this outline, even though I kind of thought I really wanted to have it done this week? but does it really matter if I give myself one extra day?

Starting point is 00:17:53 Like, am I going to feel 100% sane or if I do that? So just this very frequent checking in with yourself and being honest with yourself. Like, it might surprise people to hear that honesty and self-knowledge are really at the heart of successful pacing. And sometimes those are very difficult to get to. because I think with the kind of culture we're living in, where 110% is the only acceptable pace, and we kind of start to learn that anything less like that is almost immoral or a sign that you're lazy

Starting point is 00:18:36 or a sign that you're not up to snuff. It's very hard to consider dialing back, but I think having that courage to be honest with yourself, I am really at my wits end here. I need to take the afternoon off and I need to go in the woods and I need to be by myself and that is all part of a successful

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Starting point is 00:20:14 going out too fast and not getting caught up in the moment and the excitement and the energy and the competitiveness of like being with a big group of people who go out and it's like you've got to run at your own pace and you've got to know what that is and don't get lost in what's happening outside of you. So that was an interesting thing. Another thing was you don't actually run a marathon in training for a marathon. The most you ever run is 21 miles before your 26 miles, which was surprising to me. But it just makes me think how often we think we're supposed to be at peak performance. all the time. Like you think of professional athletes. They spend more time in not practicing and practicing than they do in actually playing their sport, their peak performance time. Yet we think

Starting point is 00:21:03 we're supposed to be at peak performance at all time throughout our entire day, no matter if we're at work or with our families or what have you. And then you keep saying this and I think it's worth reiterating is this flexibility to pay attention and to be honest with your, self about what you need and what's happening and honor it. I think a lot of times we dismiss it. Like, oh, it's so inconvenient that I need to pee in between these meetings. I'm not going to let myself as opposed to like, okay, this is normal. I need to pee. I need to take a break. Right. Kate Donovan, who's been a guest on the topic of burnout always talks about like starting point is pee when you need to pee. I love that. Yeah. So let's talk about rigid flexibility.

Starting point is 00:21:47 you call it rigid flexibility when it comes to the art of pacing. What does that mean? What does that look like? Right. This is actually something that I learned from Ajay Wilson when I was spending the day with her. She basically said, yeah, I've been doing rigid flexibility for the past few years of my training, and it has been serving me really well. And she says, you know, for the day, I do have something that's close to a non-neutral.

Starting point is 00:22:17 negotiable maybe. Like I have got to get through this two-hour training session with my coach. But things around that can shift in order to accommodate what my big goal is. Like when Ajae shows up for practice, it doesn't much matter whether she shows up at 10, at 10.30, she takes the time she needs to be as ready as she can be to tackle that most of. important block of practice that that sort of non-negotiable. And so it's this approach of having these goals and ensuring that you're moving forward because we know that just resting or dropping out or quiet quitting isn't really conducive to a fulfilled life either because we need to have challenge. Like we need to feel like we're moving towards something that we're doing something meaningful

Starting point is 00:23:13 in the world in order to have good mental health. Like that that does. for challenges built into us too. But when you cushion that challenge, that pushing yourself in, okay, after I finish, I literally am going to take a two or two and a half hour nap or to put it in a non-athletic context. If I have just presented at this marathon three-day conference and have done more speeches in 72 hours than I thought I'd ever have to do, I am going to take the next three days off of work and the first day is just going to be bed rotting and I'm not going to feel like doing anything else. And I am going to give myself rest that matches the amount of effort that I put in. And that is something that athletes are extremely good at, like giving themselves the

Starting point is 00:24:11 rest that matches the effort and we don't even think about it most of the time. Like we forge ahead. We don't really give ourselves much credit for having got through that 72-hour marathon conference where we presented five times. It's just like, okay, back to the grindstone the next day. And it's not sustainable. It's certainly not sustainable over the course of a whole career. You are going to start seeing your body breaking down, you are going to start seeing stress-related illness, but by taking more of the athletes approach, respect for your body, respect for the renewal that your mind needs, you're going to be more likely to be able to stay on, of course. So the image of like an energy bank kind of came into my head where it's like we're constantly

Starting point is 00:25:01 depleting it. And then we're wondering why the five-minute break we took or the one day in the weekend where we got a good night's sleep, why that's not replenishing our energy. And so I really appreciate this looking at it as an equal. If I drained or if I used or if I expended X amount, then I got to replenish X amount. Exactly. And we don't do that. We never do that. Right. Okay. So I know that there is somebody listening who's like, great, sounds good. But the minute I slow down or rest or replenish or take a break or whatever, the guilt, the feeling that I'm falling behind, that I'm losing something, it's coming. So what I'd love for you to do is share what are the benefits of operating at multiple paces and deciding what pace we should be

Starting point is 00:25:55 operating at versus trying to operate at peak pace 110% of the time? What are the payoffs so that we don't automatically feel like we're losing or falling behind? First of all, we don't realize the damage that we're doing to ourselves by going full steam ahead all the time. Like athletes know it's stupid. It's the fastest way to end your season is to do that. But as I was delving into the research, it's very clear that we're doing the same kind of damage to ourselves and we're trying to ignore it.

Starting point is 00:26:33 there was a study of people who were treated for what they call stress-related exhaustion, which actually is basically equivalent to burnout. And what shocked me was that seven years after their initial treatment for burnout, a full third of them were still feeling clinically exhausted. So I think we have this idea that once burnout sets in, it's just going to go away by itself, like, no, by the time you get there, you've already done enough damage to your body and to your mind and to your motivation, that it can be very difficult to climb out of that. So by far, the better strategy, even if you're thinking in terms of productivity, the better way to be more productive and more successful over the course of your career is to pace yourself so that you can pull yourself back,

Starting point is 00:27:28 long before you hit the brink of burnout because if you're in a situation where you were all the way in and you were having to pull yourself out, that is going to take way more time and energy and effort than it would take to set a measured pace on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, and stick to that and tune in with yourself about how you're doing so that once you start seeing the danger signs, whether it's health signals or just in how you're feeling or the fact that you're sleeping like crab, any of those things, those are all signals to check in and be like, is this pace working for me and do I need to recalibrate? So I think it's the smartest way to be successful over the course of a long career. you might be able to keep up that 100%, 110% philosophy for a year of your career, five years of your career.

Starting point is 00:28:30 But beyond that, you're really going to see diminishing returns and you might even crash out of your field altogether. Yeah, it's anecdotal, but I can attest to that. The last time I burnt all the way out was 2022 during my book launch. In my mind, it was a three-month, 150%. Like for three months, this is the only thing that matters, and that's all I'm doing. And by the end of that three months, I was so burnt out. I took the next six months of work pretty much off.

Starting point is 00:29:02 Like for four months, I canceled everything. And it didn't just impact my work. It was in my relationships, at home. Yeah. I hated everyone and everything. I didn't even like my book anymore. I didn't want to talk about it. Every once in a while, in the year or two that followed, people would be like, you're

Starting point is 00:29:18 also an author. and I'd be like, oh yeah, I kind of forgot about that. I mean, it was so bad, and I made the commitment that I would never do that to myself and the people I love or my business ever, ever, ever again. Whatever, and I put in air quotes, cost that would have been associated with pacing during those three months or making that three months, six-month thing, recalibrating some goals or paying attention to my body or any of the available options I could have done, Any of those would have been better than the choice that I made, which was 150% full throttle, no matter what, pay attention to nothing.

Starting point is 00:29:56 And it's just wild. My last question is, how do we find our own proper pace or ideal pace and how do we know when it's time to adjust? I think a lot of this is conceptually new. There's all this information about grind and go hard and all that. I'm like in the actual logistics of how do we uncover and discover our pace and how do we pay attention to when it might be time to adjust. Right. One good place to start or one key ingredient of that is looking at the times of day that we tend to be the most energetic or we feel cognitively like we're the most awake, the most aware. and kind of scheduling your most, like the work that's maybe closest to your heart or most important or maybe most cognitively demanding, one step can be trying to tackle that work during those times,

Starting point is 00:31:01 which for a lot of people, that involves a reorientation right there. A lot of people will just schedule their day with no regard to before lunch, after lunch, post-lunch, They kind of keep going. They put their work blocks right through all of those things. I think part of finding your right piece is finding what are those times for you when working on something that's important to you or making progress on something that's important to you feels the most liked fun, feels the most effortless. And so I think this also goes along with the fluidity notion of pacing.

Starting point is 00:31:42 how do you go with your natural flow instead of kind of working against it, which sort of feels like rolling a boulder up a hill over and over again. Like if you know that you're going to hit that afternoon slum and you are scheduling a really important meeting or a really critical stretch of writing that you need to get done for that time, you might as well be pushing that boulder up the hill. And so that reorientation and tuning into when is my capacity the highest throughout the day. And it might be more than one time. Like for me, I tend to do really well like mid-morning. I can often tackle a couple of hours of work at that time before I start to hit diminishing returns. And then there really is like that post-lunch slump. But then late afternoon, I've got a little bit more of an awareness peak.

Starting point is 00:32:37 and that is often a really good time. If I'm making a lot of headway on some writing or on a presentation, I will go back to it at that time instead of trying to force myself through when I'm really not feeling it. So I think that is a big part of setting a pace that actually is unique to you that is in tune with your rhythms. But going back to this concept of bravery, I think it does take a lot of bravery to not just figure out what peace suits you the best,

Starting point is 00:33:14 but to stick to that when you might get blowback from your boss or just feel like you're out of tune with the world at large because of the way you have chosen to peace yourself. But it's self-protective and it is the thing that's going to ensure that you are going to be able to sustain the work that matters most for 10, 20, 30, 40 years to come. It is sticking to that pace. And so it's really important to guard that and protect that in the face of whatever might come back at you as a result. And just as an example, my husband's family, like they all seem to run at a fast pace all the time.

Starting point is 00:34:06 to thrive on that. Like they, even when they're on vacation, they like to do multiple activities per day. They like to wake up early. They always want to be on the go, even when they're meant to be relaxing. They're always like straightening something off or doing something. And I always felt kind of out of tune with that. Like when I am on break, I really want to be on break. And I, over time, I just had to come to the realization that this is my pace. This is my pace. This. is their pace. If their pace is working for them, that's totally okay. That's totally fine. And we all know people who do seem to thrive on that 80 hours a week and somehow they get enough energy from whatever they're doing during that time that they can keep going. But just knowing

Starting point is 00:34:55 that you may not be one of those people and that's okay. And it's more important to be true to your own pace than to try to keep somebody else. his pace and feel resentful about it. Well, I will agree completely that it requires a ton of courage to find and stick to your own pace. I will agree that we all have our own pace, and it's our job to figure that out. I will also say that I think your husband's family is vacationing wrong because I don't care about pace. The way you vacation is you like do nothing and sit by the pool. And so you and I can vacation together, not that you're inviting me, but your husband's family and I would not get along. At least not on vacation. Anyway, if you're listening

Starting point is 00:35:40 and you want to learn more about the art of pacing, go order the book. It is called The Art of Pacing. You can also find out more on Instagram about Elizabeth and her work at Svobooster. We're going to put the link and all the other ways to find and follow her in show notes. Elizabeth, thank you for being here today and for reminding us to take care of ourselves and to find and go at our own pace. Thank you so much, Nicole. This has been wonderful. My pleasure. All right, friend, I'm going to leave you with a quote that Elizabeth references in her work, that finding your proper pace is a delicate dance between engagement and withdrawal between self-transendence and self-protection. I've read that three times and I'm still sitting with it because most of us were never taught to dance.

Starting point is 00:36:29 We were taught to sprint. And then wonder why we can't breathe, can't seem to go the distance, and keep running ourselves into a damn wall. So if you're listening to this and you're tired, not just physically, but in a way that sleep doesn't always fix, this is your sign. Not to stop, but to pace yourself. Because living your life at your pace, well, that is woman's work. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets?

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This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The Art of Pacing: Why Burnout Isn’t a Badge of Honor with Elizabeth Svoboda | 419

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