This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The Charisma Myth with Olivia Fox Cabane | 440

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Charisma. Some people seem to walk into a room and just have it. People lean in, listen, remember them, and want more time with them. And for those of us who are introverts? Well, it can be easy to assume we were simply left out of the charisma lottery. But what if charisma isn’t something we’re born with? What if it’s something we can actually learn? In this episode, Nicole sits down with Olivia Fox Cabane, one of the world’s leading authorities on the science of charisma and bestselling author of The Charisma Myth. Olivia has taught and lectured at Stanford, Harvard, Yale, MIT, and the United Nations and has worked with leaders at companies including Google, Deloitte, TikTok, and Airbnb. They discuss: Why charisma is different from charm and likability The science showing that charisma can actually be learned Why there isn’t one “right” kind of charisma The potential downsides of becoming more charismatic Why introverts may have a major charisma advantage The three components of charisma: presence, power, and warmth Why self-criticism makes it harder to stay present and connected How instant self-forgiveness can help us recover from awkward moments Why mistakes can actually make us more relatable Why taking up space matters when communicating power How vocal patterns like uptalk can affect perceived authority and credibility The difference between being nice and being kind Why the harsher the message, the warmer the delivery should be How intent and impact can help distinguish influence from harmful manipulation How charisma can exist without likability Why learning charisma doesn’t require becoming someone else The goal isn’t to walk into a room and make everyone think, Wow, she’s charismatic. It’s to stop borrowing somebody else’s magnetism and start trusting our own. Thank you to our sponsors! Protect your loved ones without spying on them. Go to HeyPolo.com/work or use code WORK and get 70% off your first year Connect with Olivia: Website: https://www.oliviafoxcabane.com/  Book: https://www.charismamyth.com/  LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ofc/  Related Podcast Episodes 165 / The Introvert Who Could with Andreea Sandu Be A Likeable Badass with Alison Fragale | 230 Powerfully Likeable with Dr. Kate Mason | 364 Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review:Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and what it feels like to be doing women's work in the world today. And that redefining involves a lot of questioning, curiosity, exploring, testing, some occasional ranting, and a whole lot of reflection, collectively and individually. Sometimes it means examining our closely held beliefs and assumptions, which is exactly what we're up to today. Because we're talking about something many of us, myself included, have thought of as a personality trait, something you either have or you don't. You're born with or you're not. And if you're not, sorry, better luck next lifetime. We're talking about

charisma. And friend, I've spent most of my adult life assuming that being an introvert basically took me out of the running. I've worked with, interacted with, and been friends with some incredibly charismatic people. You know the ones. They walk into a room and somehow the room notices, like everyone leans in and they listen and they remember them. And I studied these people because apparently observing charismatic humans in their natural habitat is some sort of weird hobby of mine. But I was fascinated because I knew that they had something that I didn't. And I wanted to figure out what it was. And I wanted to bottle that attraction power, bathe myself in it. And pretty quickly, I came to the very scientific conclusion of, yeah, I don't have any of that. So I gave up on being charismatic.

Except as I've built my confidence, as it become clearer about who I am and who I'm not, I've started to wonder if maybe the problem wasn't that I lacked charisma. Maybe it's that I was trying to do charisma by copying charismatic people. And of course, that didn't work because it wasn't mine. So I've become curious about what my version looks like when it's not borrowed, not performed, and not inauthentic. Is there a world in which I can be charismatic and still be fully me? I mean, what actually makes someone charismatic? Can introverts be charismatic without pretending to be extroverts? And if charisma can be learned, what else have we assumed about it that's just wrong? And at this point, if I just keep saying the word charisma over and over, will it,

increase mine? Well, there's nobody I'd rather explore all these questions with than Olivia Fox Cabain, one of the world's leading authorities on the science of charisma and the best-selling author of the charisma myth. She is taught and lectured at Stanford, Harvard, Yale, MIT, and the United Nations and has worked with leaders at companies including Google, Deloitte, TikTok, and Airbnb. Her work takes something we've long treated like magic and asks what happens when we actually study the science behind it. Olivia, thank you so much for being our guest. And I've been looking forward to this conversation for a very long time, as you can tell. So I thought it'd kick us off with what I believe to be a pretty foundational question. And it's simple, but probably harder to answer,

at least for me. And the question is, what is charisma? So if you ask three experts, you'll probably get five answers, right? And one of the key things to understand right away is that charisma is not the same as charm or likability. Because you can take the example of Steve Jobs, famously charismatic. Charisma so strong he was known to have a reality distortion field, but also equally famously, total asshole. So you can be really charismatic and really not likable. Charisma, in my view, is more the quality that makes people trust you, believe you, and want to follow you. Okay. So if we use that definition, trust you, believe you, want to follow you. Then the next question is, can it be learned? Is it innate? Do some people, are they more predisposed to it? So yes to all those questions and certainly enough. Yes, it can be learned. And there were some really interesting turning points in the science of charisma study thereof when in 1989 it was first shown that charisma is nothing but behavior, where in control laboratory experiments, researchers were able to raise and lower

the level of subjects' charisma as if they were turning a dial just by instructing them to display specific charismatic behavior. And then in 2011, Antanakis and his team showed that not only is a behavior, but that behavior is totally learnable. So yes to both questions, but at the same time, yeah, there are genetic predispositions. Not everyone is going to turn into Bill Clinton, in fill in the blank charismatic person. On the other hand, everyone can learn a certain amount of charisma. And I would imagine that not all of us need the same level of charisma. Like if you think about what we do or what our goals are,

you know, not all of us want to be the president of the United States or the CEO of one of the biggest companies in the entire world. So how do we know how much charisma we want or need given what we do in life? That's a really good question. I think I'd rather look at it as how much are you comfortable acquiring? I like that. Because let's be honest, there are downsides to being charismatic. And so you won't always want to have the charisma switch flipped on.

And then it's also a question of which kind of charisma worked for you. Because as you correctly realized, not all forms of charisma are right for all people. It's always a question of what's right for you, your personality, your neurotymy, your neurotype, the situation, and your goals, all that comes into play when deciding which form of charisma is right for this moment. You said that there are downsides to be charismatic, and I think sometimes we forget about that. I used to have charismatic in the category of like being universally liked. And I think there are downsides to that. And probably one of the reasons why I felt like I could never acquire it because I'm not somebody who will be universally like, nor do I want to be.

So what are some of the downsides? So first of all, and people don't always believe me when I tell them that and then they try and they're like, holy shit, it really is. People can get addicted to your presence. It's a bit of a high when you turn the charisma on full blast. And people start expecting a much deeper emotional relationship with you than you are offering. They also can start really spilling their guts. And then in the next hour, the next day, their ego slams in, goes, oh, God, what did I do? What did I say? And then you get the backlash. And then one interesting issue that I see in Silicon Valley a lot is you can convince people even when you're wrong, which is a real problem for founders who I've known charismatic founders who've told me,

I have launched products, raise money for companies that were both wrong because of that damn charisma and people would just keep, and it's not that they were trying to flatter, they would just genuinely be bowled over by the charisma, give the money, vote for the product, and then the market slammed them down. Yeah, I can totally see that. I also, you said this, but I just want to reiterate knowing some charismatic people, it's the feeling of people always want more time with them. And, you know, I can remember people being like, I just want more time with it. And the response was like, yeah, get in line. And there's only so much of any of us to go around. And that can be really exhausting, I would imagine. Yeah, I had that experience actually being a socially inept

and autistic individual by nature. And I had met some people who told me, oh, you know, it was a problem because I had too many friends. I was like, oh, boo-hoo, poor you. And then I started studying charisma. And it happened to me. And I was like, holy shit, I really understand what it's like now, especially since as an autistic individual, my brain can't handle that many relationships. So I've seen it from the inside. I'm not at the Clinton level, obviously, but even for the charisma I had, I had the experience of this being too much. So I want to hone in on those of us who may feel like we have a unique challenge as we build our charisma. Introverts as an example, somebody with autism. There are, I think, like you said, there's some people who are

predisposed. I think there are some people who have real or perceived challenges that they might need to figure out how to work through. So if you fall into that category, what are some things that we need to know or do to become more charismatic? So first of all, flip your mindset. Charisma is not how you make people feel about you. It is in fact how you make them feel about themselves. And there are a few things more powerful than being able to flip the spotlight on then and keep them there, which is where introverts are a huge advantage because they don't need to be in the spotlight. And one of the things I keep reminding people is stop trying to impress people. Let them impress you and they will love you for it. So the style of charisma called focus

charisma is perfect for introverts. And if you need a celebrity, figure, to exemplify that, it's the Keanu Reeves type. He's known for being like a total listener. And Sandra Bullock apparently said that it drives people crazy. But he'll like not only listening, but two days later, he'll come back and say, and you know, I thought about what you said. And so by the way, here's a gift related to what you said anyway. So as an introvert, you have gigantic advantages in being able to stay fully present and focused on the other person through the interaction. Charisma does not depend on how much time you have, only on how fully present you are throughout the interaction. Okay, I love everything about that. It reminds me

of advice I got many, many years ago, somebody told me, stop trying to be interesting and be interested. That's it. And I was like, I can do that, right? Because as an introvert, as you said, I don't really want the spotlight on me. And so, like, trying to be interesting was hard. But being interested in people, that felt easier and more approachable. What are the steps then? to working on building charisma, regardless of where you're coming from. How do we learn? How quickly can we learn, basically? An increase in charisma can come incredibly fast. If you look at the three components of charisma, presence, power, and warmth, because we are all of us so increasingly distracted,

increasing your degree of presence, which is literally just the ability to stay fully mentally present in the interaction will get you huge bonus points, if you will, with just a small increase your degree of presence. But what's interesting, and this is a particular challenge for women, is that, at least from what I've seen, the biggest challenge on saying present for women is self-criticism. It's not just the to-do list, which sure is a problem for everyone. It's not just having half your brain still in Slack, email, whatever, it really is the self-monitoring of, oh, I said that thing that was stupid, how's my dress fitting, I feel fat today, whatever it is, right? And as it turns out, having an active inner critic during a conversation, not just messes

up your ability to stay present, but in addition, think about it. If you've ever been in a conversation and you said something, your brain goes, oh, that was stupid. Your brain kind of, you know, your face cringes and winces and that was self-directed judgment. But they don't know that. All they know is while you were looking at them, listening to them and presumably thinking about them, they accurately read criticism, coldness, and judgment on your face. So naturally, they're going to assume that all that is about them. So the next time you see that on someone else's face, first of all, remind yourself, it's probably self-directed. There's a damn good chance that has nothing to do with you. But second, And this is why the messy, awkward, uncomfortable, difficult work of self-compassion, self-forgiveness, self-love is so bloody important to presence, mindfulness, and charisma.

Olivia, this is so good and so fascinating because you said something, which is where my brain went, which is like, hey, we're super distracted. We have one million things to do. We may not being present because of the mental load and the actual having one. bazillion things on our to-do list. That's where my brain went. But what you're saying makes even more sense, and I know I do it. I can't imagine anyone listening is like,

oh, I have no idea what she's talking about. The stuff that flies into our head, or even I catch myself, like, judging something I said, and then being in my head about how to recover. What do I say next that's clever or interesting, like, so that I can get back to some fictitious place that I've decided I'm supposed to be? I have zero doubts that somebody on the other side picks up on something, right?

There's no way. We do. We pick up on other people's cues. And I think we all know exactly what it feels like that we're just literally not there anymore. We're not listening. We're not connecting. We're just all up in our own head. This is mind blasting.

So what do we do when we catch ourselves in that place? So you're entirely right that people are going to catch that because 17, milliseconds is how fast people read your facial expressions. So even a, the fastest self-courticism will be read. Two, this is where the instant self-forgiveness comes in. And I'm going to get very tactical because different people need different things. There are some people for whom just reminding themselves that we're all human and telling themselves it's okay is fine and it works. Congratulations for them. For a lot of people, that's not enough. And so a couple of things you can try. One, reminding yourself that a lot of the world's top performers use mistakes as a way to get their audience to like them.

So Frank Sinatra was known to purposefully like mess up his shirt or he would flop his lines. Sam Walton, the founder of Walmart, when he was coming up on stage to give a talk, he would trip over his own feet, drop the microphone. And if you notice that even Cir de Soleil performers will deliberately mess up because it gets the audience invested. So the first thing is, one, remind yourself that if you mess up, congratulations. You have an opportunity. Yes, you're human. And, in fact, just like the world's best performers, this can be an advantage of handling

the mistake, whatever it was with humor and grace. Two, some people, auditory won't work. They need visuals. And so for some people, they'll need a quick visual image of someone. I don't care if it's your best friend, spouse, religious figure. superhero, your pet, anyone that you can imagine giving you a hug saying, it's okay, you are forgiven. And for some people, it's going to be imagining a physical hug because they need the tactile. So it's worth experimenting on your own to figure out which

of these three or which of the five, whichever works for you. I don't know how you imagine a smell to give you forgiveness, but whichever one of the modes works for you. And then practice it. And in a sense, do this in low sense. Do this in low sense. takes interaction. So deliberately miss up when you're getting coffee at Starbucks, when you're at an airport, you're never going to see these people again. Do something that is mildly embarrassing or a mild mistake and then test out what form of instant self-forgiveness works for you. And once you figure out what works, that is when you can use at any point in any conversation to get you physically, fully, mentally, emotionally back in the moment. Having a teenager who's becoming more

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Whatever lies ahead, don't change your morning. Let your morning change you. Discover coffee plus on espresso.com. So many good things in there. I think of two things. First, as somebody who talks a lot, I'll like stumble over my words or like struggled to come up with the word. And so I sort of have in my back pocket this saying where I'm like, I'm sorry, I haven't had enough coffee today. Or clearly my

brain and mouth aren't coordinated. Let me try that again, right? For me, there is an acknowledgement of it so I can sort of just set it aside and move on. But interestingly enough, very timely, I just had a speaking engagement on Monday. And for the first 10 minutes, no joke, it might have been a touch longer, my left boob was out of my shirt. Not totally, but like, I mean, you could see full bra. When I had hugged the person who introduced me, my microphone, my lapel mic had caught on something and it like pulled it down and I didn't notice. So I'm standing up there like in and when I looked down and realized it, I don't even know what I said. I don't, but I acknowledged it. Thank God it was a women's event. And we cracked up laughing. And at one point, there was some like applause.

And I don't even know how I handled, but I just acknowledged it and pointed out the ridiculousness of it to be on stage talking about confidence while your boob is hanging out. Like it was just funny. But my point being, I didn't do it on purpose, but I might do it again. Seriously, right? Because it is celebrating the commonality of human experience. And the more important thing is by you accepting and embracing the it's okay to make mistakes, you're again. giving other people permission. So if this works for you, you can try this. Be generous and give other people the grace to forgive themselves by forgiving yourself. Don't be selfish. By refusing to

forgive yourself, you're telling everyone they're not allowed to forgive themselves. So good. Okay, you said presence, power, warmth. I want to talk about power because I think, especially for women, we have a funny relationship with that word and can have some negative connotation around it. As it relates to being charismatic, what does power look and feel like? Yeah. So this is where I need to give some of the bad news, which is that women are so often taught to look small, make themselves small. Whether it's on stage in a conversation, you'll see women far more than men, tilt their head in the, I'm harmless, please like me in a conversation. Or maybe they'll cross their arms.

And this is all the way of making ourselves take up less space. and I need to teach women so often to take up more space. And so for women, my best recommendation is get into martial arts. And specifically Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, because you need a full contact grappling sport. So in the same vein that for presence for self-confidence, my recommendation is it's an old book. It's a small book. It's a fast read. Embracing Your Inner Critic by Halen Cedro Stone.

That's an easy, quick read. On the other hand, for power, there it's going to be a, no, you're actually going to have to learn how to embody the power because power is read so much in our body language. That's one. Two is vocal fluctuation. And there's a generational divide here,

which is getting worse. more and more women, especially in younger generations, start having their voice going up, even when it's not actually a question. It's called uptalk, and it kills their credibility and their authority. It's one of my husband's biggest pet peeves. It's so funny. He, like, cringes, and I just think it's one of the, we're just not aware we're doing it. It's a tragedy because you can have the smartest person in the room saying an incredibly accurate,

impactful, purposeful thing, and it'll go off everyone's redar, because she's saying it in a little voice that's going to go out. And the corollary, the opposite of that is if you hear a politician making up total bullshit, but with a falling intonation, and the example I always use because of the utter nonsense is the clear problem in most people's lives is absolutely the color of their toilet paper. And if only they changed from blue to pink, their lives would improve. But then you can imagine the next politician saying, and the real problem in the world today is all these brown-eyed people. And if only we got rid of brown-eyed people, right? And so it's fascinating how, listen, we have to recognize that our brains are still the brains of primates.

And so we really react to tone first before we react to words. And that is why the fluctuation of your voice has so much more of an impact, sadly, but truly, than the words you actually see. Okay, so if Brazilian Jiu-Ditsu is a great tool for taking up space physically, what can we do to work on our tone? How do we practice that? You're going to need a buddy. And you can tape yourself, but it's hard to be objective. And my favorite tool there is get $20 in $1 bill and have a buddy and practice for a couple of minutes. and every time they catch you in uptalk,

you have to rip up one of the dollar bills. You can't give to charity. You can't give it to the buddy. It has to be destroyed and wasted. That is so painful for most people that within $20, whatever bad habit they were trying to get rid of and their speech is gone. Yeah, I really do think it's not just somebody pointing it out,

but somebody observing it when it happens because it's hard to be aware of it. It's hard to work on it until you sort of felt the, of when you're doing it. Yeah, and once you notice it, you are going to catch it more often. And because it is such a killer at work, I would really tell people, listen, in your home life, do whatever you need to. But if you're in a meeting and you want to sound credible, competent, and authoritative, make sure that the depth and the speed of the drop of your

intonation, the toilet paper, is one you really pay attention to. Okay. Is there any gender component to this? I think often we use terms like leadership or power, and we, because of historical and patriarchy, we tend to think more masculine. And I believe there's so much power in the feminine. And so I guess my question is, how do we work on tone and power without over-rotating

and without trying to be or become somebody we're not? I would always encourage women not to diminish the power, get as much of the power in all the means, the body language of everything, but increase the warmth. Because when women say yes, but if I come across as strong, people say I'm bitchy. And yeah, that's a gender problem because no one tells a man he's bitchy. But don't diminish the power. Just increase the warmth to compensate. Okay, so let's talk about warmth. What are we talking about here? because I don't think it's nice or sweet, which sometimes I think we head toward as women.

How do we even measure or be aware of warmth? So first of all, let's distinguish nice and kind. They're two entirely different words. I really try to be kind. I have no interest in being nice. Same, right? It is saying the thing that needs to be said, even if it is not nice. But on the warmth, what's really interesting is that we measure warmth in eyes

and voice primarily. And what's fascinating is that people respond to tone more than word and body language more than words to the extent that a harsh performance review with a warm voice is taken much better than a glowing performance review with a cold voice. And so my recommendation is the harsher the message, the kinder the voice. So I'm going to exaggerate to an extreme here. But if you need to tell people, that is the worst performance I've ever. seen. My goodness, this is really an abysmal performance. In fact, I think you should be fired. Now, don't do this, right? This is into the realm of gaslighting. But this is just to show just how you can start with a very cold voice. You can warm your voice up so that by the end of the

sentence, your voice is expressing warmth and even affection. So warmth is something that you can learn to express. And it's something that is worth practicing because there are circumstances where especially if you're emanating a lot of power, you're going to want to emanate a lot of warmth. I work primarily with men. I wish I worked with women more. I don't. I can't remember the last time I had a female client. It just doesn't happen in my line of work. And because I have to tell these guys some really harsh things, including you sound like a total asshole right now. I have to learn to put a lot of warmth in my voice, the harsher the message I deliver. and I occasionally have to fire people, clients.

And especially when I'm firing them, that's when I turned the warmth up to 11 because it's important for them to be able to hear the message without reacting to the tone first. Okay, I have two follow-up questions. First, around the eyes, because that's actually something I have worked on and figured out is like,

how do I show my care when I'm giving feedback that could be hard because my belief is I care enough about the other person to say what needs to be said or to make myself uncomfortable to say this thing. And so like I've learned to almost turn on my eyes. And it sounds manipulative, but it's really more of a like, how do I show when the words might not be? So I could probably work on tone and voice quite a bit. But with eyes, what are we talking about here? So we don't have women going like doe-eyed or, you know. My favorite two guardrails, if you're wondering if you're being manipulative, intent and impact.

Because any time, from my perspective, any time you are looking to change something in someone else's head, that's manipulation. You are looking to change something in their head. So for me, it's is your intent good and your impact good? Because intent alone is a lovely place to start, but it's not enough. Yeah. And from there, if you're talking about the eye specifically, my recommendation would be, you know that most of us still have a teenager inside of us that's afraid of being rejected, that none of the other kids are going to want to play with it, et cetera, et cetera. Look at the other person and imagine them as the awkward teenager they probably were. And when you're delivering that feedback, deliver it to the awkward teenager who's really worried about not having friends.

and that will probably get your eyes where you want them to be. I will almost always prefer to give you a mental tool rather than a physical tool because there's so much body language emanating from us every minute that trying to control individual pieces of body language is just going to lead to incongruence, meaning that you're going to have conflict between various signals, and that's going to make you come across as inauthentic. Whereas if you get your mind right, whatever your mind believes your body will manifest. Okay. My second question, you said interestingly that you work predominantly with men. And my brain, when you said presence, power, warmth, I was thinking of some people that are perceived as very charismatic. And what I don't really like about them is I think they're big old jerks. And so it feels to me, and you can absolutely challenge me or disagree completely, it feels to me that some men are able to get away with not being warm,

and still being considered charismatic. What is that about? So let's take the Steve Jobs example. Steve Jobs didn't care about his audience or his consumers. That's not what the warmth was for. The warmth, it's really interesting because you can see him learn presence first, then power, and finally warmth. He learned charisma step by step, and you can see him increase over the presentations.

The warmth was the passion and enthusiasm for the product. But your brain doesn't know that. All your brain knows is that there is warmth there. So often what you're picking up on is enthusiasm or I was asked to review Boris Johnson, the former British Prime Minister. Listen, Boris Johnson cares passionately about Boris Johnson. There's real warmth in everything he says because he cares about hearing himself speak. And let's be honest, charisma is positively for the naturally charismatic, is positively correlated with narcissism. Oh, gosh. Okay. So there absolutely is a genetic predisposition, which you don't want,

but that will make it easier for you to be naturally charismatic if you're also narcissistic. The good news is that you don't have that same correlation for the people who learn charisma. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That is so revealing. I feel like that makes so much sense in my brain. And yes, for those of us listening who are not narcissists, this is like good news, right? We don't have to go that far. More than that, I'd say it's your response. responsibility to learn charisma and reclaim it from all those bloody narcissists who are, let's level the playing field, right? Yes, absolutely.

Oh my gosh. I could ask you one million more questions. I've already ordered the book. But if you're listening and you want to build your charisma and really intentionally work on this, I just am going to remind you to go get Olivia's book. It's called The Charisma Myth. It's available on Amazon or wherever you buy books. But let's keep our local bookstores in business, please.

And you can also go to the website charismamyth.com. There's more resources and information there. Olivia, thank you so much for this fascinating conversation and for doing this incredibly important work. Thanks, they call it. It was great. All right, friend, maybe charisma isn't about becoming more captivating or charming or outgoing or whatever else we've decided

a charismatic person looks like. Maybe it's about becoming more present, more connected, more comfortable in our own skin, because the goal isn't to walk into a room and to make everyone think, wow, she has charisma. It's to stop trying to borrow somebody else's magnetism and start trusting our own. You don't need to become more like them to have an impact. You need to become more fully and confidently you.

And that is woman's work. Where some see heroes and other see egos, Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. A fad to some, the future of money to others. We see crypto's trillion dollar swings. The end of jobs or the end of human struggle. We see the endless funds fueling the AI hype. While others follow the noise, we follow the money.

Learn more at Bloomberg.com. Hey there, I'm Travis Hoym, one of the hosts of Motley Fool Hidden Gems Investing. each weekday on Motley Fool Hidden Gems Investing, we talk through the business news you need to know, and the story's moving stocks on Wall Street. On weekends, we game-plan personal finance strategies and dive into the industries shaping tomorrow and host the experts, authors, and executives that understand them. Tune in for insights and a long-term perspective on investing, and of course, stock ideas, plenty of them. To quote a listener, it pays to listen.

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